Here's a couple of vampire-themed websites sent in by visitors. First we have the
Federal Vampire and Zombie Agency. According to the blurb on the site, "From 1868 to 1975, the Federal Vampire & Zombie Agency (FVZA) was responsible for controlling the nation's vampire and zombie populations while overseeing scientific research into the undead. This site is a tribute to the men and women who served in the FVZA, especially the over 4000 Agents who lost their lives fighting to keep our country safe." And next we have
The Temple of the Vampire. If you want to live forever, then all you have to do is join the temple. The catch is that in order to join you have to buy their book,
The Vampire Bible. That's a good sales gimmick. I should try something like that for my book, such as if you want to achieve a state of absolute enlightenment, then you have to buy my book.
Comments
The context in which High Priest Gilmore was using was for those who believe in a spiritual force as an entity. As I have mentioned earlier, the Undead operate as a carnal entities and not as spiritual ones.
You are confusing the idea that Temple ritual is Satanic ritual. Well the Temple has never claimed it is so. How then is the Temple compatible with Satanism, an atheistic philosophy and religion? Simple, the Undead are not spiritual entites. They are more than that.
This aregument is completley off base here.
The Temple offers teachings from *drum roll* advanced members of the Temple of the Vampire. So the advanced members have aquired their titles from real life application and verification-so obviously if one joins the Temple one would expect these advanced members would know what they are talking about when it comes to the Temple teachings.
As has been mentioned numerous times over and over again-you do not have to pay for active membership nor any of the graded titles. You can simply aquire the Vampire Bible and prove all that the Temple has to offer is real, if you are of the Vampiric Nature. Simple.
The Temple just has a very basic Temple Law for those to follow. Temple Law is simply set up to protect the Temple as a public religion. So when someone wines about being booted for something petty, you can sure bet that it is they who could not cut it in the real world because they are either A. Breaking the law or B. Betrayed the Temple. Loyalty is a true test of nature and character. That is why the Temple requires loyalty. The human race is full of traitors and self-destructive morons.
The Temple is VERY particular who says what to whom when it comes to the Temple. The Temple Mission is to locate and find those who are born of the Vampiric Nature. This is no secret. The Temples methods cannot even be compared to the methods of Christian evangelists out on the street corners passing out flyers. The Temple uses low key methods. If anything, this forum is just as forward if not even more forward than the Temples methods of seeking those who have the potential to rise.
Incorrect.
If someone comes to the Temple seeking immortality but the Teachings are ineffective for them, then they are better off leaving and finding something else. The Temple does not want those who are not of the Vampiric Potential. Only those who are. The Temple is only right for those who prove it to be so unto them-selves.
It's not like you've discovered some big great secret. Inface the first line of the Buddhist Challenge is: "Do you find that your efforts with Buddhism seem to leave you feeling frustrated?"
So obviously if Buddhism doesn't work for someone perhaps they may find something else that will. The Temple offers a variety of options and tools that all the other religions lack.
If someone claimed to be a Satanist but they consistently felt depressed, sad, and miserable wouldn't you rather they seek something else for them-selves? Find out what works for you. If Buddhism does, then keep it.
2. The fact that the Temple grants titles based on personal "testimonies" is all the more reason to question the competence of the individuals offering knowledge.
3. How are they "more than spiritual entities"? Obviously, members think they manifest in some physical way, but I don't understand how the fact they supposedly manifest in some "carnal" way makes them any less of spiritual delusions. Gardnerian Wiccans, for example, believe their Gods literally manifest in teh bodies of the High Priest and High Priestess during ritual. That's obviously theistic, and I don't see how that is any different from what's happening with the ToV.
4. How do we know that the "advanced" members really know anything at all? Because the ToV says so? Shouldn't we be testing everything and believing nothing? The ToV does offer the Vampire Bible, but it doesn't have any of the things required to give a prospective member immortality. I mean, if the entire ToV was set up to guide members in the Nightside Teachings to immortality, how is any one person with a VB going to get to the point where they can jump bodies at will? They have only the most basic Teachings, and they HAVE to pay the Temple to get more if they intend to achieve any state of immortality (Dayside or Nightside).
5. Proselytism is still proselytism, whether it's loud and obnoxious or quiet and unimposing. The ToV members post their crap all over the web, for anybody to see, so that's hardly just targeting "Potentials" and hardly "low key" [sic].
7. It's obvious that the ToV is targeting certain segments of the population, those segments being: Western Buddhists, New Agers, and goths, "vampires," and other assorted dark pagan and occult subcultures. If the ToV seriously believed that people should find out what works best for them and do that, they wouldn't claim to be the ONLY vampire religion.
And I contest the claim that the ToV "offers a variety of options and tools that all other religions lack." You may personally believe that, but it isn't true. Everything I've seen in the ToV is standard psi vampirism overlaid with bits and pieces of ancient mythologies and crackpot conspiracy theories. The goal of realizing that the practitioner is, in reality, the Dragon, is identical to moksha in Hinduism, satori in Zen Buddhism, and any number of other similar states in various other world religions. The idea of becoming one with some Oversoul (whether a god or the universe itself) is not new and is not especially scintillating. The only difference between the ToV and other religions is the veneer of vampiric symbolism.
It's a religion, and we all know what religions do:
Make grandiose promises.
Make you feel inferior, or missing something until you "get it"
Somehow money is always part of the equation.
Of course their way is the only true way and everyone else is wrong.
The only different thing about the ToV is that members can say to themselves -
"At least on my death bed, they can freeze my head".
You lose everything in the end folks.
And to those who verify the Undead Gods are real they are as real as smack in the face evidence.
They have been touched and felt.
That is why they are carnal.
Why didn't you just say that in the first place!?
We could have just avoided the long, meandering conversation and all the crappy analogies.
Now, I think it's very obvious that whatever ToV practitioners are experiencing is a subjective experience, so how do you can extract any objective meaning out of these experiences? Isn't trying to do that just condusing the objective and subjective realms? Or do you believe that the subjective realm is as real as the objective realm?
Part of the reason everyone is so confused about the ToV is that they say that "within lies fact and fancy; discriminate with care." That tells us that there are parts of the ToV philosophy that are, apparently, fantasy. But the ToV doesn't tell you which parts are fantasy and which aren't. Isn't that entirely misleading? How do you account for that? Why would you be a part of a religion that, as far as I can tell, deliberately misleads you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparitional_experience
Are you saying that Anton LaVey would agree with you that one could perform a magic ritual and conjure a real and tangible 'entity'?
Do you not understand that Greater Magic (see Satanic Bible) is meant to be based in 'fantasy' and that belief in conjuring entities (Undead Gods, devils or demons) outside of ritual (as you believe), "know matter how you see it", is not compatible with Satanism.
Has not the CoS been in disagreement or opposed to other organizations or individuals that have held similar views? I think you are intelligent enough to know the answer to the aforementioned question.
Keep in mind that ToV members call on "Undead Gods" and WORSHIP them and Satanists do not call upon "external entities"(spiritual or carnal).
Therefore ToV members are Vampire Worshippers or God Worshippers similar to theistic devil worshippers or Wiccans who believe in literal god-like CARNAL deities or entities.
To the general reader, "worship" does not necessarily imply self-abnegation, literal groveling or self-abasement, as most theistic Satanists are stereotyped by uninformed and ignorant Satanists (YET--Satanists are partially right in that some do worship in this manner and not all theistic Satanism is "inverse Christianity); yet, means reverence or veneration and ToV members "worship" Undead Gods or show honor towards them.
A bit off topic, I would also like to say that I do not feel a need to say, "Hi, I am Satanist but not a 'devil worshipper" similar to how Wiccans say, "Hi, I am a Wiccan but not a Satanist." and then proceed to spread misinformation about Satanism. Let's hope it doesn't come to some CoS members feeling like they have to say, "Hi, I am a Satanist but not a kooky ToV member." <--joke 😜
As far as LaVey's paradigm of non-theistic or atheistic Satanism the only god to be "worshiped" is the Self.
You may believe what you want yet don't expect all Satanists to shallow your belief in external carnal deities and, remember, theistic Satanists feel Satan is carnal too.
The Satanic Bible is clear on the difference between fact and fancy and doesn't mislead anyone.
Precisely! The Temple of Set "worships" Set, but they don't grovel to him. They believe that he helps them become a god similar to himself. I think the ToV's paradigm is much the same; ToV members worship the "Undead Gods," who in turn allow their followers to Rise as "Undead Gods" themselves. The CoS can't stand the ToS for being theistic, so why would the CoS stand the ToV?
2. The Undead are invited in through advanced communication called Communion. Only those who are of Vampiric Nature can communicate with the Undead and successfully achieve Communion.
3. Vampire Ritual is NOT Satanic Ritual. The Temple has never claimed it to be such. Nor has the Temple ever claimed to be part of the Church of Satan. Both are separate entities.
4. The Temple asks for personal verification if what We say is true in order to avoid the non-sense of belief.
5. If a member lies then that will show forth very similar to that of a person in a hospital pretending to be a Doctor. They will look like fools and most likely leave from embarrassment.
6. The Temple is not for everyone.
For those from within who have verified its teachings they are fact, for those who cannot it is fancy, discriminate with care.
"The Undead Gods are as carnal and as real as your next-door neighbors. They are carnal entities. A carnal entity is not a spiritual entity."
Have you ever met one as real as your next-door neighbor? What evidence have you acquired as to their actual existence and carnality? What reasoning and protocol did you use to rule out hallucination, perceptual errors, decoupled cognition, false memory, etc.? How do you know you are not being fooled even by your own mind? What convinces you trust these personal experiences?
"The Temple asks for personal verification if what We say is true in order to avoid the non-sense of belief."
This is contradicting your first two points, in which you are [probably unintentionally] having us take them on belief. Can you also explain what constitutes satisfactory personal verification?
"We?" Are you suggesting you are an Undead God? What's with the capitalization?
Santa Claus is carnal and as real as your next-door neighbors. Santa is a carnal entity. A carnal entity is not make-believe.
Remember boys and girls, Santa is watching and knows if you have been naughty or nice. 😉
I've never seen so much "loophole" jargon in my life. Trying to exploit or find loophole's in Satanism as to gain the CoS' acceptance. "Carnal Entity", that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Nobody will ever verify the temple's teachings because you have to sign a frigging letter swearing to secrecy, by the time you reach a level in which you are supposedly taught anything you can't verify it anyway.H-O-A-X!
I am not sure that some have explicitly understood this statement from Anton Szandor LaVey.
Also, I agree highly agree with Nukem that Satanism is not congruent with the ToV's philosophy.
Rupert, I agree with what you said in your previous posting and find that the so-called Satanic Vampires attempts at trying to make their religion compatible with Satanism laughable.
"The Satanic Bible is not up for interpretation" or something similar.
I have seen this many times. It seems that this has become a hypocritical statement as of late, everything that I read in defense of the ToV is an outlandish, weak interpretation of Dr Lavey's words, in some way shape or form.
Is all of this a such a large Hoax that it has become the 21st century's new mythology similar to Christianity or Holy Grail mythology and is the ToV exploiting this.
For example, we now have movies like Stargate that use this modern mythology passed off as real archeological and scientific evidence to support their claims.
Is this Alien Astronaut mythology all just a big hoax? I will let the reader decide...
Critiques of Von Daniken's writings
http://www.abc.net.au/science/correx/archives/lies.htm
http://www.skepdic.com/vondanik.html
http://www.skepdic.com/nazca.html
http://www.debunker.com/texts/vondanik.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/alienactivity/nazca3a.html
Critiques of the writings of Zecharia Sitchin
http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/
http://216.10.26.55/Sitchin's/Errors.htm
http://jcolavito.tripod.com/lostcivilizations/id14.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8148/hafernik.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8148/index.html
http://www.skepdic.com/sitchin.html
http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk/siren.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8148/zindex.html
Views of the history of ancient civilzations:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/
http://www.ianlawton.com/
All excellent questions.
The Vampire Priesthood Bible warns the Vampire to "not touch them unless given permission". The Undead have actual PHYSICAL manifestation and NOT the spiritual.
It is one thing for someone to fool themselves but the consistency of the experiences as well as the consistency of the experiences by others are all similar and familiar in nature.
I do not expect people here to believe a word I say. I am just simply passing my perspective on from what I have explored.
Each must find out for themselves.
You dunce do you even know what the word entity means?
en⋅ti⋅ty
/ˈɛntɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [en-ti-tee]
1. something that has a real existence; thing: corporeal entities.
In fact you, I, and everyone you know is an carnal entity.
The Undead have actual PHYSICAL manifestation and NOT the spiritual.
Have you ever conjured and seen or have been allowed to touch an undead god?
Ok. You believe a book, and other people. You also have trouble understanding what carnality refers to. Flesh and it's composition matter do not behave the way you are describing. I understand you are conveying your opinions to us, but I suggest you are working within a paradigm that does contain beliefs. It's noticeably limiting in your ability to see other possibilities as equally valid.
Wow....I haven't heard the word "dunce" in a while, thanks for reintroducing that one to me.
"In fact you, I, and everyone you know is an carnal entity."
Some of us are Carnal Entities....and some gaze into mirror's trying to find one.
I can understand the concept of the undead gods being carnal entities.
If one attains certain attributes throughout their temple experience they may obtain a title as defined by the ToV as "undead god". Are there ToV members who have obtained Immortality,Self Control, and Power Over the World to the defined standards of the ToV.....I would hope so.
Undead gods maybe real, carnal entities, flesh and blood human beings. Human beings cannot maniphest themselves via communion to every initiate during any ritual. It's humanly, physically impossible, to believe anything else is basically a spiritual pipedream.
I believe that the culmination of teachings within the ToV may be of a carnal nature BUT the journey from it's begining is one that takes many a path through Spiritual gates. That can't be denied.
It's not worth it, to me, a Satanist. Even if I embarked with an understanding of the metaphorical values, to stoop to such levels would be pitiful.
To ritual as an outward projection of my will is one thing, to fool myself into believing metaphysical hocus-pocus is entirely out of the question.
Undead godhood, metaphorically speaking could be (in ToV terms) the mastering of the fundamental elements core ideology(s) as developed by the founder(s).
1.Immortality
2.Self Control
3.Power over the world
The fact of Carnal or Ghostly entities is irrelevant if you look at the Undead Gods for what they are, basically a level of acheivement, mastery of an artform as so developed. As to the actual legitimacy of this level of mastery, I have my doubts about the real "bang for your buck" when it comes down to what could actually be gained from the three elements...
Communion, a form of meditation perhaps, a way to subconsciencly maintain focus on the long-term goal of the highest level of mastery? I see that the true nature of the temple is kept hidden from those that seek out membership, why lead people to hysteria, in terms of allowing deification of what is so obviously really nothing of the sort.
I have read many a post on the lifeforce boards in which the "adepts" could easily set the record straight about the true nature of the many components but instead allow hocus-pocus mumbo jumbo to root into the minds of the willing.
Upon analysis of the 3 elements I see validation of the practices in which I would consider to be nonsensical. The 3 elements to me are not worth further study as they do not provoke my interest, collectively. Although many aspects of Self-Control as described by Nemo are common sense. I believe that mastering the 3 elements could be accomplished without participation in the mumbo-jumbo.
Could you please explain how the belief that buying a Vampire Bible to summon Undead "carnal" God entities in a ceremonial ritual is compatible with Anton LaVey's teachings and beliefs in regards to Greater Magic.
Obviously, ToV members believe that they can have some carnal entity appear in their mirrors (more spiritual-like/astral) or literally materialize into their bedrooms in a solid and tangible form like they used a Star Trek transporter device.
How can such magical beliefs be supported under the banner of Satanism or compatible with Satanism?
To ritual as an outward projection of my will is one thing, to fool myself into believing metaphysical hocus-pocus is entirely out of the question.
That was a very good point Rupert.
ALL experience is real.
The ToV doesn't believe that anything can be "unreal." They believe that thoughts and dreams are as real as dinner plates and platypuses. There is no distinction between fantasy and reality because fantasy is just as "real" as reality is.
Following this line of thought, the Undead Gods are real because people know about them and can think about them. And if anything happens in the ritual chamber, then that thing is real too.
It may sound totally wonky, but it IS a valid philosophical position. It's sort of like idealism, except Vampires assert that ALL experience is real, as opposed to just mental phenomena in idealism or the physical world in materialism.
Aristotle and Socrates, by the way, were also Vampires. Go figure.
Satanism is essentially a materialistic philosophy; it denies anything that isn't in accordance with natural laws. (Magic, as practiced by Satanists, falls into this definition as well because most Satanists believe magic operates only on a psychological level or by as-yet undiscovered natural laws).
Vampirism, on the other hand, asserts that the world of thoughts and ideas exists as much as the material world. THAT is the disjuncture between the two philosophies, and THAT is what's causing everybody so much grief.
Clearly, the two philosophies are in no sense compatible.
I have also read Much of Crowleys books
all religions are founded on cults
even monotheism
All cults are created from info that is not fully understood
The main issue (my view) is we are confused about why we are here and why we are different from the plants and animals thus creating our insecurities
When our live are overly comfortable we either worry about death or look for ways to complicate our lives
The main problems with cults and religions
is not that they promise to little
but their inability to validate their promises
Overall the Tov accomplish what all religions do
1. they give people a reason of purpose in comfortable times
2. they give people purpose in hardcore bad times
3. they answer insecurities
regardless it is not for everyone
but atleast the don't constantly push their views
on you like christianity and scientology
also you are not pressured to stay
I Support the Tov becuase I feel like it
Do what thou wilt, love under will
I started to disect your post and form responses to the different statements you made, until I realized I had something better to do.
I did manage to come up with this much though;
I'm glad to see that you have already obtained a solid grasp on what the ToV has to offer, in that I bid you good luck.
Astounding, but they do say a person does not have to become a member to worship Satan.
I really do not understand this fear everyone has in regards to TOV. It's very bizarre.
Thanks for being a dumbshit.
I think you could understand, if you would have been kind enough to have read the other posts before having an opinion. 😉
Others here are not going to repeat themselves because you are too lazy to read the forum or research the two main religions discussed here.
A bit of comedy in these quiet times.
Nahshon
Mr. Private
Nice to see you both.
The simple fact of the matter is that vampires don't exist; they're just normal humans playing with vampire aesthetics.
Posted by Nahshon in Nowhereville
Show me a 'normal human'.
I haven't seen one yet.
Once again:
"It's all bullshit."
George Carlin
Always wanted a LttD alternative where we can talk about all the nasty stuff we cant there!
I just read every page of this thingand im surprised that nobody has moved offsite, are you really gonna keep hogging MoH's space? We need to start a group devoted to cleaning the vampires out of cos! I agree Tov is like the leech sucking the brains out of cos, but why has nobody said whats a obvious posibility: That CoS allows ToV in order to weed out the Xtian-at-heart?
Also, hasn't peggy said that vampires are allowed on LttD because it's Ventrue's board and hes tov too, not CoS's official board? She ended that post with a reminder about Stratification in all things- ToV, though even Nemo doesn't know it, is the untouchable caste of CoS. It's where the flippers go! It's a trap for any CoSers who arent born satanists.
PS, it's been fun playing the logic puzzle of who's who on LttD.
It's not dead, we've all just been taking a much needed nap.
Except for the fact that nobody is being "weeded out." They hang around and get further involved in Satanism, where they don't belong.
"Also, hasn't peggy said that vampires are allowed on LttD because it's Ventrue's board and hes tov too, not CoS's official board?"
LttD is Magister Ventrue's personal board, and he lets Vampires on it because he's also a Vanpire, an Adept, to be exact. He also is the webmaster for the ToV messageboard Lifeforce.
"...ToV, though even Nemo doesn't know it, is the untouchable caste of CoS. It's where the flippers go!"
That may very well be the case, but there are quite a few Satanists who still have a high opinion of Nemo, who started all this Vampire nonsense in the first place.
"It's a trap for any CoSers who arent born satanists."
It's not a trap if nothing is happening to them.
Also in some cases they have even been fast-tracked into elevated CoS positions.
On the other thing if theyr getting all fast tracked and is really not a trap, yea we gotta do somehting. maybe once the paranoias all voer i cn stop typing like this and resume the diction I prefer to speak with on LttD.
I can't thank MoH enough for hosting our charade for this long, I do agree though that another place would be a good idea. If you have suggestions as to where a good place to start something as you have mentioned please feel free to email me .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address). Also, I like your thread topics, that would be a blast!
Nahshon, maybe you know of a good place in which we could reside....?