The Museum of Hoaxes
LifeWave Energy Patches
Posted By:
Fawkes
Feb 24, 2005
 Now you can get more energy from a patch! I especially like the way that
they "believe" that it works. It is also based on years of research from
many fields. While the research may be valid, I'm not sure that their
results were intended to be used with a "patent pending blend of water,
oxygen, amino acids and organics applied to a polyester fabric and sealed
within a polymer shell".

http://www.contactplus.com/lifewave.htm

We can finally have our super-soldiers now!
Category: Health; Replies: 5918

Comments
Page 69 of 99 pages ‹ First  < 67 68 69 70 71 >  Last ›
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 | 07:07 PM
ALSO:

http://www.lifewavenc.com/

Look at NEWS

July 2006, well over a year ago is the latest news?

"Lieutenant General Kiley, Surgeon
General of the Army, undergoing a
strength test by Dr. Steve Haltiwanger."

I guess he didn't choose to use the "Protect Yourself From Loosing Your Job Patch" as he was fired shortly after!

Where are the exciting news articles about the mass of new products Schmidt is pushing around the globe.

TV programs, interviews on 20/20 etc. Where is OPRAH? She always has cutting edge ideas on her show, scams or not.

Could it be that Schmidt's EGO is so large that he just doesn't give a s***.

As long as he pulls in the money he really doesn't care. After all, caring isn't one of his personality traits.

*
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 | 07:30 PM
http://www.muscle.com/modules.php?name=News&file=comments&sid=13&tid=38&mode=&order=&thold=

DECEMBER 2004

"In this case, the patches are "encoded" with the signal "transport fat to the mitochondria and make ATP"

Because there is over twice as much ATP (cellular energy) derived from fat as compared with carbohydrates, using fat as an energy source can be beneficial

What is exciting about the LifeWave technology is that our LifeWave patches may be encoded with any number of different messages for the body to receive.

Our first patch products are encoded to tell the body to "burn fat and make energy"

Fascinating stuff folks. Yet here we are in 2007 with Schmidt feeling the need to bring out a weight loss patch.

Foregive me, but if you used the original energy patches, wouldn't you have burned off every trace of fat on your body?

Wouldn't you have got to the stage where you had ZERO body fat?

Wouldn't that have been a problem?

The patches were encoded to burn fat, so what happened when the fat ran out?

Have you seen any LifeWavers with ZERO body fat?

What about fat soluble vitamins? If there is no fat, now what?

Doesn't ZERO body fat look something like this?

http://wso.williams.edu/orgs/peerh/images/anorexia.jpg

!
Joel
Member
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 | 11:48 PM
WHY DAVID SCHMIDT WILL NEVER SUE ANYBODY WHO CALLS HIM A
Joel
Member
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 | 11:48 PM
WHY DAVID SCHMIDT WILL NEVER SUE FOR DEFAMATION - PART II

Let
Joel
Member
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 | 11:49 PM
WHY DAVID SCHMIDT WILL NEVER SUE FOR DEFAMATION - PART III

Somebody sued by Schmidt for defamation would probably be able to file a successful anti-SLAPP motion (depending on the state in which the case is pending) and get the case dismissed within the first couple of months, with David Schmidt being ordered to pay all of the defendants
Joel
Member
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 | 11:49 PM
WHY DAVID SCHMIDT WILL NEVER SUE FOR DEFAMATION - PART IV

In the estimation of this observer, therefore - who does not pretend to have special insights into the mind of David Schmidt - people can publicly call David Schmidt a CON MAN, and can call LifeWave patches a SCAM, all they want and David Schmidt will simply bend over and take it.

You can almost hear Schmidt saying,
Anotherone
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 | 08:30 AM
Although what Schmidt may be doing is unethical to the max I find this recent comment quite distasteful and although I am no prude (and a heterosexual)..I will leave this board with my summary for whoever is interested--his stuff doesn't work, but many of his premises are real. that's a fact..valid and reproducable..and this will bug the science minded one's of you..so be it..that's the history of scientific discovery anyway..Gallileo, etc..not including Schimdt in this, just some of the bashing of things less understood is unfortunate, as is this latest comment. good luck to all and good health
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 | 11:41 AM
Anotherone: "many of his [Schmidt's] premises are real."

I'm not sure which premises you are referring to. Schmidt's premise that thermocouples exist is not being questioned. His premise that sugar and glycerin can be put into pendants, medallions, bracelets, and sealed plastic patches is also not questioned. Beyond that, Schmidt's theories, as laid out in his patent application, constitute layer upon layer of inane guesses about science and physics. Schmidt himself admits in that document that he is relying on guesswork.

Anotherone, I hope you will come back long enough to give people the details of your testing and your results, and your qualifications. The purpose of this board is to share information and opinions so that readers can make their own informed decisions. Please don't let the fact that I believe that Schmidt deserves a good paddling drive you away, if you have something to contribute beyond personal anecdotes.
Razela
in Chicago, IL
 Member
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 | 07:15 PM
Anetherone, you say "many of his premises are real. that's a fact..valid and reproducable"

If it's valid and reproducible than it is science. However, I haven't seen anything of the sort. If you know something we don't, please direct us to the information.
Joel
Member
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 | 02:43 PM
If it's reproducible it gets incorporated into Western science. That's what Western science is all about.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 | 06:24 PM
Joel

"If it's reproducible it gets incorporated into Western science. That's what Western science is all about."

Exactly Joel. As has been pointed out many times on this thread, Schmidt doesn't have a Patent for his amazing "scientific breakthrough".

He will not get a patent for this Country and he didn't bother to file for Worldwide patents. You don't see a slew of scientists doing reverse engineering to take advantage of the lack of worldwide patent applications do we?

A little perplexing that someone who supposidly knew he was sitting on the greatest discovery ever didn't have the time or energy to apply for the correct patents!

Of course, we know that having dreamed up his scam he only needed the "Patent Pending" in his website info to impress the gullible. The fact that the application has gone nowhere is of no importance to the people who paid their money to buy the dream.

!
Joel
Member
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 | 01:33 PM
EDHUK,

Although Schmidt does not have a patent yet, he may end up with one before it's over. The Patent Office does not conduct independent testing to determine whether something works as claimed.

As a first approximation the only thing that the Patent Office examines a patent application for is whether the product described therein is new and nonobvious. What could be more nonobvious than something that finds no support in any previously known science? Schmidt even said in his provisional patent application that according to "conventional expectations" his patches should have "no effect or advantage." So it wouldn't surprise me if Schmidt does get a patent. Whether he gets a patent or not bears no relationship on whether Lifewave is a complete scam by a con man.

What IS telling is exactly what you pointed out: With no patent on a product that he has been selling for more than 5 years now, where are the teams of people trying to reverse engineer the product so that they too can cash in on this supposed miracle product?
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 | 04:30 PM
On February 24th 2005 the first post from Fawkes appeared on this thread.

Now on page 217, I continue to be amazed that the scam artist, huckster, liar, call him what you will, David Schmidt (not a Doctor) is still in business.

Perhaps this week's email from James Randi can throw some light on why this is.

http://randi.org/jr/2007-09/092107packt.html#i2

Maybe the USA gets what it deserves?

As James Randi points out, the media is far more interested in covering O.J. in handcuffs than doing their part to put certain other people in handcuffs!

Go figure!

!
Shock Doc
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 | 05:06 PM
The Lifewave debate has been going on since the products first came out. The most amusing thing has been the assertions of non-science by people who are themselves not scientists. Science is not a group of sceptics standing in a corner and pointing a finger declaring that "It can't work!" Neither is it a marketing campaign declaring that "It always works." It is establishing a hypothesis and then testing the hypothesis to see if it is true using acceptable, and time-tested methodology. The simple fact is that is neither research that "proves" nor that "disproves" the benefits claimed by Lifewave.

However, there is some research that does show that Lifewave products have some measurable physiological effects on the body... and these tests do include the use of placebo controls. Among the test are ones that use thermographic devices to measure heat in the body that clearly demonstrate that the Lifewave pain patches reduce excess heat and another using Japanese Ryodruku electrical measurement of the acupunture meridians that show that placing the Lifewave energy patches on key acupuncutre locations changes the energy in the acupuncture meridian.

So, on the one hand, there is certainly no evidence beyond anecdotal that supports the statement that Lifewave patches do nothing. In fact, reasonable research indicates the opposite. They do, in fact, do something. On the other hand, the research that does exist doesn't really support the specific benefits claimed in Lifewave's anecdotal testimonials.

Until there is some clear research that supports either the claim that they don't work or the claim that they do produce the claimed benefits, the fact of the matter is that the jury is out. In that environment people will continue to purchase Lifewave products if they believe that they produce benefits for them.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 | 11:10 PM
Shock Doc,

We skeptics have never claimed to be science so thanks for that strawman argument. And for the millionth time, we have nothing to prove. It it up to Lifewave and their supporters to prove the patches do as they claim. So far they have not.

One thing we skeptics can do is use existing scientific knowledge to point out flaws in Lifewave's theory of operation. That has been done and it's easy. For instance, modern biology shows no evidence for the existance of acupuncture meridians so the rest of your post can be disregarded unless you can direct us to an article in a respected, peer-revieved scientific journal that shows otherwise.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 | 01:55 AM
How long has the "good" "Dr." been selling his little plastic patches now? Given that the markup on those things must be HUGE, wouldn't you think that "Dr." Schmidt must have the money to hire a lab to actually TEST the damn things by now?

Why it's almost as if "Dr." Schmidt KNOWS damn well that the things don't work and therefore lab results wouldn't really help his sales efforts.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 | 07:55 AM
Shock Doc,

"However, there is some research that does show that Lifewave products have some measurable physiological effects on the body... and these tests do include the use of placebo controls.
Among the test are ones that use thermographic devices to measure heat in the body that clearly demonstrate that the Lifewave pain patches reduce excess heat and another using Japanese Ryodruku electrical measurement of the acupunture meridians that show that placing the Lifewave energy patches on key acupuncutre locations changes the energy in the acupuncture meridian."

Your words give us all we need to know about your powers of deduction and reasoning. Blind faith may be sufficient for you, it it certainly not enough for me.

NEXT!
Joel
Member
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 | 11:47 AM
Shock Doc:

You're getting your information about test methods and results from where? From the phony "Dr." Schmidt? From his website which currently claims in its marketing video that the patches are "patented" when they are not (a blatant lie told for marketing purposes, in case you missed that point)? From LifeWave's testing laboratory of choice, Fenestra Labs, which by its own public admission has falsified test data for its clients?
Shock Doc
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 | 12:20 PM
To Captain Al, EDHUK

Actually, if you argue that there is no scientific evidence, the the assumption is that you must, in fact, know what scientific evidence actually is. It isn't something you hear on the Fox Channel or from the World Wide Scam. As far as acupuncture meridians go, you don't know what you are talking about. There is very clear "scientific" evidence in Europe, Russia, China, Japan, and the USA both that acupuncutre produces predictable and reproducable results at least equal to western science. That does not include the 2500 years of carefully documented experimental hypothesis and test evidence in the acupuncture literature. In addition, there is also clearly established evidence that electrical signals do, in fact, travel along the pathways identified by the acupuncture meridians. Try JAMA Duke University, the Mayo Clinic or other referneces. Just because you don't believe it or haven't read it doesn't make it so. What are your credentials to make a scientific judgement? What scientific theories are you basing your judgement on? See, the world of science changes. I remember when new age people always talked about things having a "vibration" and how there were other "dimensions". Many many people thought this was shear nonsense. Isn't it funny that string theory, the latest and greatest in physics says that everything at a fundamental level is vibration in multiple dimensions. So far this is not experimentally verified, but the mathematical predictions are pretty terrific.

Frankly, you guys remind me of the Catholic church at the time of Copernicus. Damn it, the earth IS the center of the universe because we say it is so. Whether you like it or not, there is measurable, reproducable evidence (that means scientific) that LifeWave patches do something physiologically. That is not blind faith because I have personally talked to the researchers and seen the results. I would be willing to bet you haven't.

Now if you would learn to read English, you would see that I am not either a proponent or detractor of the claims of benefits like weight loss that LifeWave makes. The evidence simply shows physiological changes, but there is no clear cause and effect relationship within the body of evidence quoted by Lifewave that supports that the established physiological changes, in fact, produce the benefits that are claimed. That means that with respect to those claims there is no clear cut cause and effect, reproducable scientific evidence that proves either they do product the benefits or they don't. Period... and once again, your wishing it was different doesn't make it so.

Those are the scientific facts.

So, in the absence of clear cut proof one way or the other, the reality is that either there are thousands of deluded people who are giving anecdotal testimonials about the effectiveness of the products or the patches do, in fact, work for some of those people. Yes, I know the immediate arguement is for a placebo effect. The only problem is that people also anecdotally report that they work on animals... and you can't product a placebo effect on an animal. Of course, those people could be deluded too.

Finally, Lifewave's only obligation is to its customers, and certainly not to prove anything to you. Lifewave is not a research company. They are a marketing company. The fact of the matter is that in a free market economy the obligation of a marketing company is to keep customers satisfied and buying. If the company does not keep customers satisfied, then they will go out of business. In the final analysis that will be the real test if the products produce the benefits that are claimed. All the discussion on this forum won't mean a thing.
yup
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 | 01:40 PM
well said doc..very well said... sadly ,, the " know it alls " here are to brain dead to see the truth...
Joel
Member
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 | 02:44 PM
Shock Dock:

"the reality is that either there are thousands of deluded people who are giving anecdotal testimonials about the effectiveness of the products or . . "

That is, there are thousands of people who are subject to the placebo effect and the power of suggestions. I don't think any skeptic has ever claimed that the placebo effect and the power of suggestion is limited to a small fraction of the human race.

"The only problem is that people also anecdotally report that they work on animals... and you can't product a placebo effect on an animal."

Actually, the placebo effect DOES work on animals, as long as human beings are interpreting and reporting the results. They've even proven that the doctors reports are biased by the placebo effect. That is, if the doctor is TOLD that the medicine is real (even though it's actually a placebo), the doctors will, as a whole, report that their patients are improving vis-a-vis the control group. Sorry, but I don't have the link for you here.

I also found this interesting comment on the web by one person, when discussing when Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM) flourishes:

"I think that most research shows it doesn't work and yet people continue to believe in it, and that reinforces my view that it is a flight from science and rational thought......some bits of complementary medicine don't want to become mainstream. The whole attraction is not to be mainstream. If a drug company marketed homeopathic medicines they would stop working. I think it is all to do with the fact that it's not made by drug companies."

That may be one of the best explanations I've heard for Lifewave.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 | 03:25 PM
yup said:

"the " know it alls " here are to brain dead to see the truth..."

"The truth" being apparantly that a "doctor" who doesn't have a degree in ANYTHING has "discovered" how molasses and glycerine enclosed in small plastic patches can do a seemingly endless number of (always) good things to the human body, in defiance of the known laws of physics? Is THAT the "truth" that we're "too blind" to see?

Has it occurred to you that perhaps what you think you see is the equivalent of the Emperor's New Clothing?
Joel
Member
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 | 04:00 PM
Shock Doc:

"Frankly, you guys remind me of the Catholic church at the time of Copernicus. Damn it, the earth IS the center of the universe because we say it is so."

Check your facts, "Doc."
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 | 04:31 PM
Shock Doc,

Straying off course to talk about acupuncture for a moment...

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gqRdg8uF1H0K-fXkBKHp8TPqZKbA

The study shows once again that things are not quite as cut and dried as "the 2500 years of carefully documented experimental hypothesis and test evidence in the acupuncture literature."

"Fake acupuncture works nearly as well as the real thing for low back pain, and either kind performs much better than usual care,..."

We have discussed placebo effect many times already and have noted the excellent research in the US.

http://www.med.umich.edu/opm/newspage/2005/placebo.htm

How is acupuncture in any way important to the current version of LifeWave?

In the early days, con-man Schmidt pushed the oriental connection, meridians etc. Now the sales literature states:

"When placed above the body the LifeWave NC
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 | 04:43 PM
A quick visit back to the old days:

"The LifeWave Workout Test
Want to see for yourself that LifeWave is working for you? Try the following tests.

After a proper warm-up first perform an exercise such as push-ups or Bench Press for as many repetitions as possible (one set only; perform to failure).

Then apply the LifeWave patches. Rest long enough so that you have fully recovered from your first set. Depending on the physical condition you are in, with some people this will be only a few minutes while other people may have to wait up to 30 minutes. You are the best judge as to your own health.

Now perform the same exercise again (if using weights use the same amount of weight as the first set) and perform as many repetitions as possible (perform to failure).

What you will find is that you can perform MORE reps with the patches. In fact, most people will exceed 20% improvements the very first time. Individual results will vary."

Fascinating stuff.

Did you try this test doing a second set of reps WITHOUT patches?

What a surprise!

Now, I wonder what happens inside our body when we have just pushed it hard?

?

Slight of hand...the LifeWave way!

!
Joel
Member
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 | 04:55 PM
EDHUK:

Shock Doc does not exactly claim to be "another innocent onlooker." He claims, "I have personally talked to the [Lifewave] researchers and seen the results." Someone who has personally talked to Lifewave's supposed "researchers" is, in all likelihood, a Lifewave employee, contractor, or distributor.

Shock Doc:

please tell us what, if any, your financial connection is to LifeWave, who the "researchers" are that you have talked to, and how you came to be talking to them about Lifewave. That will help visitors to this forum evaluate any financial interest that you have in this discussion, and the credibility of your statements.

Thanks.
Shock Doc
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 | 11:21 PM
RESPONSE PART 1
I have no direct connection to LifeWave and I am not a Lifewave distributor. Obviously, I have had experience with some, but not all of the Lifewave products and have talked to many people concerning Lifewave.

Here is the point that most of you are missing. If you are going to use "science" as your justification for why you believe Lifewave products don't work... and that is what you seem to be doing... then are actually as obligated to provide scientific experimental evidence that they don't work as Lifewave is obligated to provide scientific experimental evidence for their hypothesis that they do work. That is just the way things work in science.

I really want you to understand that I am not making any claim about the truth or non-truth of the Lifewave claims. The facts as I see them are that the evidence they site does not DIRECTLY prove their claims. However, they do have reasonable scientific evidence performed by people trained in the scientific method that show a correlation between the use of some of the Lifewave patches and physiological effects in the body.

On the other hand, I don't believe that you have any evidence whatsoever -- not a shred of it -- to support your assertions that it is a placebo effect. Consequently, the placebo arguement is only supposition and rhetoric on your part to support your point of view, but there is no experimental evidence. In the absense of hard experimental results you are just blowing the same kind of smoke that you accuse Lifewave of... and you can't have your cake and eat it too.

How can you possibly sit in judgement of the literally thousands of people who have felt very positive results from the Lifewave patches given that the evidence they have, which is not DIRECTLY conclusive, is far better than anything you have ever produced. That is pretty presumptious on your part... I have no idea of your creditials or even if you have ever actually used the Lifewave products, On the other hand, I do know the credentials of people like Richard Quick and frankly, I am willing to give some credibility to someone who has coached Olympic swimmers when they state that swimmers wearing the patches swam better.

Now EDHUK why don't you share your credentials to make scientific judgements with everyone. Not only do you not have any solid evidence of a placebo effect, but since you are not actually aware of the actual studies that were done you are blowing more smoke when you make statements about spontaneous changes in thermographic images when you haven't actually seen the results, the experimental design, the number of subjects, or the times involved in the changes. You seem to always want to put someone else on the defensive by questioning their integrity -- so, my friend, it is time for you to stand up to the table yourself and let everyone know how you are qualified to make these judgements.

... more
Shock Doc
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 | 12:39 AM
PART 2

You also continue to blow smoke concerning your ignorance of oriental medicine. As you may know, acupuncture is licensed in most states and is deemed by the medical boards in those states as an acceptable form of treatment for MDs for particular conditions. That is to say, it is an acceptable alternative to drug therapy for particular conditions. There are literally thousands of experimental studies done throughout the world confirming that acupuncture produces consistent reproducable effects, and that side by side, oriental medicine and western medicine have about the same success rate, although for different conditions. I guess you know more that the medical boards and researchers throughout China and the rest of the world too, though, don't you. The point regarding Lifewave and acupuncture was with the use of Rodruku based measuring equipment. You don't seem to know what that is. The Japanese, Chinese, and Russians have thoroughly researched the use of GSR to measure key acupuncture points on each meridian. It is a simple electrical measurement that, when connected to a computer, can produce results showing the state of energy in each meridian. These results are measurable and reproducable by independent testors -- i.e. scientific. It is a fact that placing a Lifewave energy patch on particular acupuncture points changes these measurements in ways that are predicted by acupunture theory... and that is all that I am saying because that is all the research supports. Lifewave patches can be shown to produce measurable changes in the body. Those changes include metabolic changes, thermographic changes, GSR measurement changes, and others. They also include measured changes using devices that are less scientificly established, so I won't include them in the list. If you have any data showing anything different please let me know and I will be the first to examine and acknowledge it. Of course, it must stand up to the same scrutiny of "scientific" that you want to force on Lifewave.

I am glad that you acknowledge that science is continuously learning new things. You might be interested to know that Russian research connected to their cosmonaut program confirmed resonant energy transfer effects between objects and humans... that in the presence of objects humans can exhibit physiological reactions. So for example, a physiological reaction can be measured when a human being is in the physical proximity of a given drug. Yes, this research was completely scientific and was used as a diagnostic and treatment technique in Russian medicine. If you can't read Russian or don't have a Russian friend, you won't be able to find this body of work. Isn't it interesting that resonant energy transfer is one of the claims made by Lifewave for how its products work. I am not saying the Russian research supports Lifewave claims, but it is interesting that it DOES clearly demonstrate the viability of a concept that I suspect you and perhaps your "scientists" would find a hoax and that Lifewave claims to employ in their patches.
Shock Doc
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 | 12:40 AM
PART 3


Let me also be clear exactly why there are not "Universities all around the world busy testing the heck out of these pathces" Have you ever tried to get a research grant? I have. The political reality of science is that unless you are doing research to support the current theories in vogue, or you are doing research that a corporation will fund (and it isn't cheap) anticipating profits from the results, or you have are a huge figure in science from previous research you were able to get funded... well, it is tough to get any funding at all for radically different ideas... I can just picture going before a PhD committee and telling them you intended to do research for your thesis that would disprove an accepted theory. That would last about a second. You see the idea that science is on the search for truth really isn't entirely true. Scientists are on the search for funding, first and foremost, and after that probably recognition in order to get more funding. After all, they have to pay their mortgage and eat. It is not unknown for a "scientist" to prostitue him or herself for a buck. It really doesn't matter how many scientists you have talked to. If they haven't done experimental research on the Lifewave patches, then all they can justifiably say is that the Lifewave patches should not be able to work according to the scientific theories and facts they are aware of. Remember there are still a few scientists who say that there is no Global Warming while we watch the ice falling off the glaciers into the ocean. Remember, there are still major debates in science about many many topics.. different people have different points of view depending on their training and experience. Without direct experimental evidence it is one person's ideas and math against anothers.

However, as I said, Lifewave is a marketing company, not a research group. The statements they make are marketing statements and not research reports. Do you think that the drug company that sells medication to cure fungus under your toes actually is saying there are little gremlins that live under your toenails. Their TV commercials say it so that must be their scientific statement. Obviously, not so.

And it is a complete statement of fact that as a marketing company their responsibility is to their customers -- to keep them satisfied. Even if all the continuing customers a completely deluded and insane and it is all placebo effect so what. If they feel better they feel better and they will continue to buy and who are you to say that their experience is invalid. Their perception is, in fact, their reality. In the same way, your perception is your reality... but then you might just be deluded too.

The fact of the matter is that you really don't have any real evidence of any of the claims you make against Lifewave. If you do, where is it? You have no evidence of placebo effect, you have no evidence of fraud, you have no evidence of a hoax, you have no evidence of spontaneous thermographic changes, you have no experimental evidence at all of the claims and charges that you make. So, in the final analysis you are just another guy with an opinion, and you are certainly entitled to that, I believe you are sincere in your opinions, but don't try to peddle it to anyone else as anything more than that.

Thanks
Friends of Shock Doc
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 | 01:30 AM
clap.............................clap..............................clap.............................clap.........................................clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap

Yeah....Bravo......Encore.....

Shock Doc, You had me at Hello......LOL
Shock Doc
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 | 01:47 AM
Joel

Thanks for your comments. I stand corrected on Copernicus, but I think the point was clear.

Let me address a few of your comments.

First, concerning the placebo effect. I find it interesting that you both criticize CAM and mention the placebo effect. Isn't the placebo effect proof of the ability of the mind itself to effect cures? Isn't that one of the main speaking points of CAM?

You are absolutely correct about the impact of the researcher in experimental research, but that is precisely what double-blind methodology is all about. It is pretty tough, though, but certainly not impossible, to misinterpret the results of a stopwatch on a horse running with and without Lifewave patches.


I say experience the patches for yourself and use them if you like them. I can't recall all the details of the research because it was several years ago and I didn't keep a copy, but there have been research studies done. As you would expect, some were better than others and some were done by more reputable research facilities than others. As I have said, none of these directly proved Lifewave claims, perhaps except the sleep patch, but they did demonstrate physiological changes. It is unfortunate that Lifewave's current marketing strategy does not seem to emphasize the release of all this information, but that is their decision to make, not anyone elses. I notice that they have published some other studies that you may want to read on their web site. I am not directly familiar with these particular papers.

The whole point of the posts that I have been making is that when Lifewave sceptics and detractors make statements about Lifewave being a hoax or that its members are all experiencing a placebo effect, then you have a logical and probably legal obligation to back up what you are saying with solid evidence. Otherwise it is politics and not science. Honestly, a statement like "People who experience Lifewave benefits are experiencing the placebo effect" really are a lot of hot air unless you have the research to back that statement up. There is certainly nothing wrong with being sceptical, nothing at all. However, there is a big difference between being sceptical and calling someone a hoax or a fraud without any real evidence.

The other point is that LifeWave really has no more obligation -- legal or ethical to "prove" its claims than you do. If its customers are satisfied and believe that they are being benefited, then Lifewave is meeting its obligation. I believe they still offer a money back guarantee, so they are being completely ethical in the free market economy.

I remember seeing a gentleman who had about 50% range of motion in his arm. Immediately after application of the Lifewave patch he had about 90% range of motion. Yes, this could have been a placebo effect, but he was able to move his arm and he was satisfied that the Lifewave patches produced the result. I promise that if you were that man, you would be satisfied that you could move your arm and wouldn't really give a damn if it was a placebo effect or not.


So to answer your question, in the absense of any actual "truth" on either side, then according to Milton Freedman, the free market system becomes the truth. If David Schmidt is producing products that his customers believe do not work, then he will eventually be forced out of business. If he continues to be in business, then, by definition he has customers who believe that he is being completely truthful and is providing a valued product.

You and other people on this forum who have the opinion of scepticism or worse about Lifewave are casting your vote by not buying his products. Just as you don't really listen to or care about what his supporters say, they don't care what you say, so only time will tell the economic truth.

In the meantime we can all continue our mental masturbation on this topic just for the shear enjoyment of it. Actually, I think I have had enough fun for a while.

Thanks
Joel
Member
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 | 12:39 PM
Shock Doc,

Your posts contains only your say-so, no links, no citations, no footnotes, no authority. You don't identify any of your credentials, or who you've been talking to. So excuse us if we take everything you say with a grain of salt. A number of people have appeared on this forum, like you, claiming to be "researchers" or what not claiming to have no financial interest in Lifewave, but curiously claiming to have spent hours talking to the Lifewave "researchers" out of academic curiosity, and to have been given access to their researchers for reasons unidentified, but disappearing or ignoring the questions when asked to identify their background and training, and who they have been talking to. Those posts don't pass the smell test.

You do know, don't you, that David Schmidt himself stated to the U.S. government that his patches shouldn't have any effect according to known science? How can you be so upset if people take David Schmidt at his word on that point?

To answer one of your questions, yes, I believe in the power of the placebo effect, and the power of suggestion. I believe strongly in the power of the mind to influence the body. But I also believe that someone selling a placebo effect based patch is, at heart, lying and committing fraud. Especially if his marketing materials rely on lies. The courts in this country agree.

I have issued an open challenge on this forum to Lifewave supporters to work with me in blind testing of the patches on me, with the Lifewave supporters sending me both regular patches and placebo patches (which LifeWave must have available, because they claim to have done many placebo controlled studies) without identifying which is which, and a neutral arbitrator to hold the key and tally and report the results. Twice Lifewave supporters accepted my challenge, then both reneged. Too bad, it would have been fun, and maybe informative. Perhaps they were real believers who believed that the testing would prove the efficacy of Lifewave patches, but when they contacted Lifewave, Lifewave refused to supply placebo patches for any testing other than testing controlled by Lifewave and its distributors.

Either way, I find it very, very telling that not one Lifewave employee or distributor is curious enough to expend just a tiny bit of effort to assist in some quasi-independent testing.

Other people have appeared on this forum saying that they tested the patches and found no effect. One poster I found elsewhere stated that the patches apparently made him feel worse, even a little sick. Anecdotal reports mean nothing. I don't believe for a minute that the patches made him sick.

We skeptics on this forum have caught David Schmidt in a number of blatant lies. Catching Schmidt in documented lies, and exposing Lifewave's desire to avoid any real testing, or even something approaching a reasonably controlled test, is hardly mental masturbation. It's giving people real information.

If you find telling lies, and relying on results from laboratories who falsify their test data, to be an acceptable part of marketing and to be part of the "free economy" as you call it, then I'm sure Lifewave supporters would think that you would have a great future ahead of you at one of the big pharmaceutical companies, and that you'd fit right in there. I, for one, would never consider purchasing any product or any service from you.

So long.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 | 12:40 AM
What is it with you Shock Doc? You just don't get it, do you? What scientific qualifications do I base my judgements on? Absolutely none. I don't need any. I am merely relating the current scientific consensus on acupunture (and Lifewave). That consensus is: ACUPUNCTURE DOES NOT WORK. If you don't agree, go argue with the scientific community.

Here is a recent blog entry that explains it:

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=14

Now this is not the research on the subject. It is a review of the current scientific consensus. Understand? Of course real science is always open to revision but the case of acupuncture is further hampered by the "level of plausibility" which is zero. The whole basis of acupuncture is nonsense. There has never been any evidence for the existance of "chi". No chi, no acupuncture. No acupuncture, no Lifewave patch effect on meridians. Simple, isn't it?

As I said before, if you don't agree, go argue with the scientific world.
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 | 01:11 AM
Captain Al,

I disagree with you about acupuncture, although I can't say that I have read enough to speak with any authority.

Granted, acupuncture's notions about "chi flow" are silly, and with studies such as the one you cited that seem to demonstrate that those notions are false.

But that doesn't mean that acupuncture doesn't work. Your author even seems to admit that acupuncture works better than massage+anti-inflammatories+heat packs, as long as you define acupuncture as being music+incense+needles rather than merely needles. The study your link references seems to lend significant support to acupuncture.

But what we can all agree on is: Even if acupuncture (no matter how you define it) works well for a significant percentage of the population for certain ailments, and even if chi were to flow through the body along magic meridians, or invisible dragons were to fly through the body, that in no way lends any credence to con man Dr. Schmidt and his looney toones theories and who claims that his patches work just like tiny FM radio stations . . . or is it now the "hot and cold patches" that don't work nearly as well as incense+music+needles?

Schmidt mentioned chi and acupuncture in his patent application and in his marketing literature. So what? He mentioned molasses, and ions, and the Seebeck effect too. We all know that those things exists. So what?

Only a moron would conclude that because
Schmidt mentioned something that the reader believes exists, well then Schmidt's patches must work.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 | 02:38 PM
How Interesting!

http://www.moneymakergroup.com/Lifewave-wave-future-t8245.html&hl=LifeWave

You will see that LifeWavers attempted to get their hoax product discussed (and freely publicized) on Money Maker Group.com Mar 7 2005, 09:48 AM

You will also see that the folks over at Money Maker were having none of the LifeWave nonsense.

After a few posts the thread was closed!

We must be doing something wrong here, or maybe it's because this is a HOAX forum thread that it's still alive and well here.

?
Coops
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 | 03:13 PM
I read on a South African web site that the patches have been tested on animals and show a horse wearing the patches. How was this test done? Do horses also have a placebo effect?

Coops
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 | 04:10 PM
Hi Coops,

Hope all is well with you in South Africa!

A while back on this thread we learned that a study had been performed by a Veterinarian using over 140 horses.

At the time LifeWave made a big deal of the study.

Joel did a very good critique of the "study".

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/forum/forum_comments/2526/P2420/

As a direct result of Dr. DeRock's study, the Veterinary Journal that published it, later, after a few emails from Joel and myself, changed their publishing standards to include peer review PRIOR to publishing.

The DeRock study is a joke, but you should read it and decide for yourself of course.

Over the past couple of years there have been various pictures of athletes, and race horses, with the patches on. The last race horse with patches on that I followed for a while did very poorly.

LifeWave will ALWAYS be able to produce an athlete or a horse etc. with the greatest of ease.

That's how SCAMS work. REAL evidence is not used, just magical "testimonials".

The placebo effect in animals has also been covered in this thread.

LifeWavers assert that an animal CANNOT be subject to the placebo effect.

NOT SO as has been demonstrated world wide.

Humans interact with animals and can directly effect studies that are not carried out using the correct protocols.
Ask Dr. DeRock about scientific study design, but don't expect to be enlightened.

Her study didn't even make Science 101 muster.

Hope that answers your question.

Maybe your question will bring a few LifeWavers back out from under their rock!

Cheers,
Dave
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 | 04:29 PM
Coops,
You may also be interested to read that Dr. DeRock is into other MLM companies.

http://www.drderock.com/

Click on "LifeWave Patches" on the left of the page.

Read about the patches.

Scroll down and what's this we see?

http://www.maxgxl.com/lauren

Another company selling the wonder substance Glutathione.

Oh dear. Perhaps Dr. DeRock hasn't been keeping up with the ever changing LifWave website(s).

http://www.lifewave.com/pdf/Papers/SciencePaper004-GlutathioneSkinPatch.pdf

Oops, that's the surgical facelift that WAS!

Now it's the military and the wondrous uses of Glutathione.

http://www.lifewavenc.com/

Click on "Products" then "DefenseWave".

Or is it the anti aging use?
http://www.lifewave.com/yage_info.asp

"I have recently been introduced to another company which has the most advanced and scientifically based precursors for Gluthione production." says Dr. DeRock.

Looks like David Schmidt slipped up there.

Enjoy!

Dave
Coops
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 | 11:46 AM
I've read the Dr's report on the horse and the patch. Because she is involved in Lifewave and other MLM's I think she would be biased in her reporting even with being a doctor.

My original question was if it is possible for a horse to experience a placebo effect. Since the placebo effect is triggered in the mind I don't believe animals can be affected. The only way she measured on the horses was by means of observation and observation of annoyance. If she tested over a hundred horses then that would have cost her a small fortune.

I have read a bit on the placebo effect and I understand that when a patient received medication that they
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 | 02:06 PM
Coops

It is extremely difficult to design studies that isolate the effect of human intervention, bias in interpretation etc.

In your case, with the patch that goes dry, and your belief that the patch is in fact transdermal, you would be able to shut down LifeWave very quickly if you could prove it.

LifeWave has based its entire operation on a single claim. The patches are NON-TRANSDERMAL. Nothing enters the body. This is why the FDA is not on their case. LifeWave registered in the same class as band aids.

They DO NOT have some sort of FDA approval for their product and its claimed properties/actions.

So, I suppose the ball is in your court. Prove they are transdermal and contact the FDA in the USA who will be most interested.

Cheers,
Dave
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 | 12:11 PM
Had an interesting email today trying to convince me to sign up to the next great mlm opportunity.

Seems that Steve Smith is involved.

This Steve Smith:
http://thesurfboard.net/download/sscomplaint.htm
(Courtesy WWSN)

Steve used to be involved with LifeWave.

"Electro-Magnetized Potentiated Nutrition"

Wow

Is this LifeWave MK II?

Might need to start a new thread to take a closer look.

mylifesmiracle.com will be up and running soon.

Let's see if it gives LifeWave a run for its money!

Enjoy!

Dave
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 | 03:30 PM
http://www.lifesmiracleusa.com/

Yep, I think this may well need a new thread!

Dave
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 | 01:46 AM
For anyone interested in the latest "Wave" check out:

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/forums/viewthread/5591/

Cheers,
Dave
Joel
Member
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 | 10:47 PM
I got a fascinating front row look the other day at how the Lifewave scam works, and why it may take a long time to completely die.

Out of curiosity I attended a Lifewave presentation session in which DH himself came to a Curves (the large woman
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 | 12:19 AM
That's a very interesting story, Joel.

Yeah, pitching patches to a small bunch of women in a franchise gym in a strip mall is a LONG way from where Schmidt was claiming the company would be at this point.

As you point out, his being there (rather than a flunkie) really says a lot about the state of the company.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Schmidt has to hustle like this to have money in his pocket these days. It's hard to understand how small-time crap like this would be worth his time otherwise.
Jallopity Jane
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 | 09:43 AM
So tell us Joel, please.

You stood up proudly and debunked the uncharismatic scam artist, you told those two women that they were experiencing nothing but a placebo and you proceeded to enlighten the now irate crowd who (knowing they were being lied to) applauded your wisdom and thanked you profusely for saving them from the grips of quackery.

Tell us that was you, Oh heroic Joel.

Or did you sit there tight lipped and speak only to your shallow self taking notes thinking to yourself, "I can't wait to get home to report this to Cranky Media Guy and Edhuk, they are going to love me for my detective work".

Because if what you claimed is true - setting the "ambiance of the room" just right and bringing in a smooth talker - the world will be out of pain and we would have no need for prescription pain meds.

Which in my humble opinion sounds many more times far fetched than anything DS has said.

So please do tell us exactly what you did say to DS?
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 | 11:00 AM
Jallopity Jane

So kind of you to mention me!

Were you one of the women Joel referred to attending "Curves (the large woman
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 | 10:19 PM
Jallopity Jane

It sounds like you vehemently deny the existence of a placebo effect. If that's the case, there's little point in having any discussion with you.

I chose not to disrupt DS's game (much), but mostly to watch and observe. I did ask one question about the supposed "technology", to which DS responded, "That's proprietary. We don't disclose that." In other words, DS was sticking to his stump speech and was going to avoid any REAL questions.

I also passed out a couple copies of "Dr. David Schmidt" 's U.S. government filing, for those people who might be interested.

Do you find it far fetched to believe that DS is a liar?
Jallopity Jane
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 | 11:33 AM
"It sounds like you vehemently deny the existence of a placebo effect."
- Oh really - reading between the lines is not very scientific Joel, because I don't remember denying that there is no placebo.


"If that's the case, there's little point in having any discussion with you."
- The way "OUT" of a shallow man who hadn't even got the courage to stand up in the face of quackery and proclaim truth to the "suckers". But I will grant your wish - a continued conversation with you would be futile - you are shallow & ignorant and in only two posts you have proven it.

Do you find it far fetched to believe that DS is a liar? - Not at all - just as I don't find it far fetched that every person on this thread thus far is a liar, the world is full of liars. INCLUDING YOU!!!

But if some "Fat Chick" proclaims she has less pain from a nagging injury after putting on a patch that is "supposedly" created to help in this case, why should she not be able to feel a difference - and who are you to deny her.

Maybe ALL our doctors should develop a "story" like DS and hand these "band aids" out to people prior to drugging them. If it works so well for a "certain percentage of the population" why would we not use a more humane approach?
Joel
Member
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 | 01:18 PM
Jallopity Jane,

If I understood you correctly, you stated that the idea that a smooth talker wielding inert patches could induce people to feel less pain, "sounds many more times far fetched than anything DS has said." That sounded to me as though you think that the placebo effect is "far-fetched." Tell me if I'm wrong.

"who are you to deny her."

I didn't deny the women anything. Which is exactly what you are calling me shallow and gutless for - for not having told the women that their pain reduction is all in their heads.

You can't have it both ways, Jane. Should I let the women experience their temporary pain reduction (if they aren't interested enough to do their homework on the patches), or should I stand up and call DS on all of his bullshit?

Perhaps I'll do that at another meeting and see what the audience thinks.

Isn't it outrageously far-fetched to believe the following: That a man who invented sealed sugar patches that can actually reduce pain by 80% through clothing in seconds (not to mention all the other amazing things that DS claims the patches can do), hasn't been named "Man of the Year" by Time magazine yet, hasn't received his Nobel prize for medicine yet, never bothered filing for more than a single patent (which got rejected by the Patent Office), hasn't been featured on CNN, hasn't been written up in JAMA, has had most of his top managers quit, still uses a disgraced psychiatrist as his science advisor, and after 7 years in business (as claimed by DS at that meeting) he still hasn't gotten past the MLM stage and is now seeing a decreasing business to the point that he is reduced to hawking a few boxes of patches at a time to small audiences in strip malls gyms?

Here's what poster energypoints proudly proclaimed:
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 | 02:01 PM
So, Jane, DO you think that the occasional apparent success the patches have in reducing pain is attributable to the placebo effect?

If so, then why does Schmidt lie about how the patches work? What's with all the pseudo-scientific nonsense? Call 'em Placebo Patches and be honest about it.

If *I* invented a breakthrough product that operated according to a principle previously unknown to science, I'd either be selling them by the millions or be negotiating to sell the company for billions of dollars. I seriously doubt I'd be pitching them to a small crowd of women in a Curves gym like the guy who sells eyeglass cleaner at the county fair.
Joel
Member
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 | 02:24 PM
If I were a LifeWave distributor and actually believed the product claims, I would be marching em mass with my fellow distributors to La Jolla with torches and pitchforks, demanding that DS hand over the reigns of the company to somebody who could at least sell heaters to Eskimos.
Joel
Member
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 | 02:34 PM
. . . or I'd be reverse engineering those sugar and glycerin patches, and knocking the crap out of DS in the free market and becoming a zillionaire.

I'd probably have Barry Bonds in a nationwide TV commercial saying, "I don't need to inadvertently use steroid cream anymore. With these little babies on my Chakra points underneath my jersey, I hit 90 home runs last year."
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 | 05:32 PM
JJ

It's always fascinating to observe the level of vehemence toward any poster here who states that David Schmidt is a con man.

I, along with many others, have NOTHING to gain by posting here. Balancing the times when people hurl insults are the times when posters give thanks for the information. It's especially heartwarming to see ex LifeWavers admit they were conned but that they are adult enough to admit it and they are now moving on.

The placebo effect has been positively demonstrated in recent years and the study in the USA concerning pain was especially appropriate with regard to the "Curves" pain placebo example.

I've posted this link many times, but to save you having to look for it here it is again:

http://www.med.umich.edu/opm/newspage/2005/placebo.htm

So, would it be possible for the ladies concerned to have have experienced a reduction in pain after the application of the LifeWave patches?

Absolutely!

It would also have been possible for them to experience pain reduction after being given I/V saline solution, as per the Ann Arbor MI research.

David Schmidt abandoned his wife and children in Georgia to head off for his new LifeWave lifestyle in California. He made his choices and will have to live with them.

We have noted here in this LifeWave patch scam thread that anyone who becomes a distributor/promotor of the product is equally liable when the company goes belly up.

Hope your bank balance is healthy.
Joel
Member
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 | 10:39 AM
JJ

The apparent pain relief in the "Curves" example would be an extremely easy one to perform an amateur test on at home with a person who is experiencing pain.

Shield the person's eyes so that they cannot see (e.g., have them lie face down, or lie with a towel over their face). Without saying anything, in series place a number of small objects that have similar size and weight as Lifewave patches over their jeans (you don't even have to stick anything on - just gently set it down on their jeans), with only one of those objects being a LifeWave patch. See if the person can consistently pick out, "You must have just set a LifeWave patch down on my jeans because suddenly my pain decreased significantly."

Let us know how this works, will you?
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 | 11:14 AM
Joel

As you know, this thread has been asking for bona fide scientific testing of the patches to no avail.

Your simple "test" would be easy to do, but doesn't include the double blind element. The tester would still know that they were placing a LifeWave patch on the subject and could, without realizing it, impart this knowledge to the subject. Not likely, but possible.

The patches will NEVER be tested properly by LifeWave because they are a SCAM.

While the element of doubt, for some, remains, the business will continue even though Schmidt is having to do some pretty hard ground work to keep the SCAM going at the moment.
Joel
Member
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 | 06:04 PM
LIFEWAVE
Joel
Member
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 | 06:13 PM
LIFEWAVE
Joel
Member
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 | 08:48 PM
LIFEWAVE
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 | 12:22 AM
Hey, the woman's polarity was reversed! It wasn't LifeWave's fault!

OK, sarcasm off. Um, what does "polarity" mean in connection to the human body? Where can I attach the voltmeter to determine if my polarity is correct? Even if we assumed this nonsense was logical, what would "correct" mean? Do most humans have one polarity and a relative few have the reverse?

So many questions, so many bullshit answers.

To Tara, I would suggest that you do a little research on kinesiology. Did they pull that old "see how weak your arm is" gag on you? That's been debunked over and over. You shouldn't have any trouble finding information about it.
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