The Museum of Hoaxes
LifeWave Energy Patches
Posted By:
Fawkes
Feb 24, 2005
 Now you can get more energy from a patch! I especially like the way that
they "believe" that it works. It is also based on years of research from
many fields. While the research may be valid, I'm not sure that their
results were intended to be used with a "patent pending blend of water,
oxygen, amino acids and organics applied to a polyester fabric and sealed
within a polymer shell".

http://www.contactplus.com/lifewave.htm

We can finally have our super-soldiers now!
Category: Health; Replies: 5918

Comments
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hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
 Member
Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 | 09:02 PM
Y'know, I was trying for a trial of patches too. And I'd love to win the MDC. I even have friends over there (at the JREF) who would help me if they thought I had a legitimate claim...
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 | 09:14 PM
So the world's strongest man wears patches, maybe.

So, what precisely is the point of the statement I wonder.

Is Mickey stating that the patches are responsible for our firefighter winning the contest. I wonder how he feels about that. His bio certainly paints a picture of a man who has been dedicated to becoming the best physical specimen possible.

I guess we'll just have to get in touch to get his side of the story.

If the patches did indeed give the winning edge (which of course we know they couldn't have done) how would the competition judges view their use?

The bottom line, I suppose, is that the athlete angle has been covered here many times before. I have written to some of the athletes previously listed as endorsers. They are no longer listed.

It's all part of the hype about this non-product. Any angle to appeal to a fresh set of gullible newbies.

What's next I wonder. I do hope it's something novel!

Dave
What the bleep do you know?
Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 | 10:51 PM
Since, Dave EDIK Oh sorry....EDHUK, you are talking about something passing through the skin and it all being a different thing. Well, again Dave you are the idiot. Put the patches on your shoes the negative way and see how you respond. I assume you know how to do this since you know everything about Lifewave.
What the bleep do you know?
Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 | 10:54 PM
EDIK, what is your relation to David Schmidt?
Dina
Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 | 11:02 PM
Joel,
I'm not wasting my time with your type. If you were really sincere, you'd order some patches and they are guarunteed to give you your money back if your dissatisfied. What are YOU afraid of? Go through the company for your test. I can give you the 866 number and you can go through Lifewave for your little test.
Dina
Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 | 11:35 PM
Joel,
No one gets paid to wear the patches. They wear them because they work. But again, if you had any class you would call Lifewave customer service and tell them you'd like to do a little test of your own and deal with them. Not waste my time with your uninterest in the patches. i am busy and I have things to do and people to help.
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 12:00 AM
I guess by "my type" Dina means somebody who's willing to give the patches a try vs. placebo patches, and who will post the results here, but who is unwilling to turn his credit card number over to a proven liar like "Dr." David Schmidt.

Absolutely, Dina, I don't want the phoney "Dr." Schmidt to have my credit card number. Absolutely, I don't trust that man nor anybody associated with him. And hey, I'm the guy who offered to you to run 135 miles testing out LW patches vs. placebo patches vs. no patches. So Dina, is sending me a box of LW patches and a box of placebo patches, with you numbering the patches and keeping track of which is which and me paying for the shipping, too much trouble for you to do in return?

So now we have two skeptics (me and hcmomof4) publicly accepting a challenge to try out LifeWave patches. You'd think that LifeWave distributors would be salivating at the thought and lining up by the dozens to send patches. Instead they've scurried for cover. Keep the excuses coming, all you wavers.

It's remarkable that Dina, Mickey, and Watcher all exhibit the exact same problem knowing when to use "you're" versus when to use "your." Perhaps it's a peculiar side effect of the patches. The patches are, after all, based on entirely new technology, the side effects of which are still being investigated by LifeWave's dedicated team of lab scientists, I'm sure.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 12:21 AM
EDHUK said:

"I think Coops in South Africa has raised the possibility that the patches are indeed transdermal and have been passing substances in to people's bodies causing effects. If David Schmidt has lied about the patches being non-transdermal, he could also have lied about the contents."

Yes, that is a possibility that can't completely be dismissed. I don't think it's the case but we don't really know, do we?

"My understanding of the James Randi Challenge is that LifeWave has been accepted as a bona fide entrant based on their claim to bring about changes by non-transdermal means."

Yes, that is LifeWave's claim and Randi has said both here and on his website that he would accept LifeWave as an applicant for the Million Dollar Challenge.

I'm simply amazed at all these LifeWave defenders who are so busy saving lives and imparting energy that they simply CANNOT find a few hours (which is what Randi says it would take) to submit the patches for double-blind testing and win a million dollars. It must be nice to be so wealthy that you can leave a million bucks on the table, so to speak, although you could spend the money on giving LifeWave patches to the sick, of course.

Joel said:

"So now we have two skeptics (me and hcmomof4) publicly accepting a challenge to try out LifeWave patches. You'd think that LifeWave distributors would be salivating at the thought and lining up by the dozens to send patches. Instead they've scurried for cover. Keep the excuses coming, all you wavers."

Remember that I actually received some patches from a distributor many months ago and my wife tested them...to absolutely NO results, positive or negative. I'm sure my negative vibrations affected their efficiency...or was the moon in the wrong phase? It's very difficult to keep all this mumbo-jumbo straight.
Mickey Mouse
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 12:33 AM
Joel,

Let me explain again. I am NOT a distributor of LW energy patches. I also never claimed or said that I would furnish you with LW patches.

With that being said......

I honestly had every intention of writing back telling you about how much I could give a shit about your 3 minute mile etc etc etc....HOWEVER...the last four posts to this site changed my mind.

So because of What The Bleep Does Dina Know? I will furnish you with one weeks supply of LW patches and can only trust that your integrity allows you to publically record and furnish this group with your results.

I have a few questions:

Do you personally know any other posters on this thread or the WWSN? You don't need to name them.

Do you keep records of your workouts?

You claim to run 3 miles in 24 mins. Could you do it in 22 if you pushed yourself? Have you tried? Whats your best time in past 12 months?

What about pushups? Can you do them over the next two weeks logging results to failure over 3 sets?

I do not personally have any LW patches but I will order a set for this little trial. If you promise to abide by the prtocol, I have absolutely no problem funding this little experiment.

And before anyone else chirps up....NO NO NO....Joel is the only person I am willing to supply patches to.

And just for the record. I truly don't give a shit about your 3 miles in 24 minutes, this to me is a legitamate test overseen by some of the most skeptical non-believers in unexplainable energy.

I could give a shit about paying me 20x the price or King Randi's Million....consider this nothing more than a FREE trial.

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, hey it's gonna get sqeezed outta me somehow, it may aswell be for this.

So I welcome comments from the peanut gallery.
Charybdis, Dave, Captain, hcmomof4, Razela & Cranky can we work on a protocol that fits everyones comfort?

I am initially thinking 1 month
Week 1 - No patches
Week 2 - No Patches
Week 3 - PATCHES
Week 4 - No patches

We can log and monitor results.
Muscle fatigue - recovery - etc......

Ps....Joel you cheated and replied while I was writing my response....then you had the audacity to sandwich me between Watcher & Dina....so again for the record:

I AM NOT A LIFEWAVE DISTRIBUTOR

I HAVE USED THE LW PATCHES AND GOT GOOD RESULTS

PLACEBOS EXIST - ALL POSITIVE RESULTS CANNOT BE DESCRIBED AS A PLACEBO AS NO-ONE CAN SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAIN PLACEBO.

I DO NOT CLAIM THAT JOEL WILL RECEIVE ANY BENEFIT HOWEVER BOTH HE AND I ARE WILLING TO HONESTLY AND ETHICALLY DETERMINE IF THERE IS CHANGES IN HIS STRENGTH AND STAMINA

THIS TEST PROVES NOTHING IS NOT SCIENTIFIC IN ANY WAY AND ONLY SERVES TO ALLOW A MORE OPEN DIALOGUE IF ANY CHANGES ARE REALISED

OK let the games begin.....
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 01:49 AM
Mickey,

Thanks for your post which I believe is sincere.

To answer a couple of questions: No, I don't personally know any posters on this thread or WWSN. I'm just a random Joe to whom somebody tried to sell patches once on a ski lift, so I was curious and investigated, and thus found this forum. I don't record my workouts. I've been running my whole life so I think that would be a pretty good test of any claimed performance enhancing product, but might be open to some other physical test.

The problem with testing patches without a placebo control is that such a test wouldn't prove anything, and I really don't think that it would serve any helpful purpose at all. This is especially true because, as I've stated before, I believe strongly in the power of the mind to influence the body. And even Lifewave's own data "proves" the existence of a placebo effect (see Homer Nazeran's paper), if you believe LifeWave's data.

I'm willing to test patches if given identical patches and placebos without me knowing which is which. Because LW claims that about 40 double-blind placebo controlled tests have been conducted, LifeWave must have plenty of identical placebo patches lying around. And even if they used up their last placebo patches and won't be getting any more, you could probably create placebo patches by subjecting LW patches to approximately body temperature for several days, which LifeWave apparently claims will destroy the resonant crystal FM transmitters or whatever is inside the patches.

I would be willing to test patch or placebo, then the other of patch or placebo, then no patches, then repeat a number of times, with me and the patch supplier then simultaneously exchanging my results and the key as to which patches were LW and which were placebos. I think that would be a pretty fair test, possibly even bordering on scientific. That's basically what I had proposed to Dina but hadn't heard back from her until her post today.

Maybe we should take the discussion of a protocol off line, then post here any agreement we come to.

Let the serious investigation begin . . .
Dina
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 08:51 AM
Joel,
I'm not "Scurried for cover". I just don't waste my time on paranoid, unsincere people. Apparently you do not know how to use "you're" and "your." Maybe you need the patches to clear out your brain and get more of a mental clarity.
Your little test and your little shoes isn't correct huh? You need to get a dictionary out pal. Good luck with your test and wasting Pluto's time. Pluto, Joel can call customer service and ask to be a test person and send them back the data of his findings.
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 10:21 AM
Dina:

You wrote, "No one gets paid to wear the patches."

Really? Are you telling me that you know for a certainty that LifeWave has never paid anybody to wear or endorse the patches, including Ronnie Coleman and Sagi Kalev? How do you know that?

I'm not sure why you call me "insincere." I totally and sincerely believe that LifeWave is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read, and is a scam. Have you carefully read the provisional patent application that I emailed to you including the signature of "Dr. David Schmidt," and does nothing in there strike you as fishy?

Although I believe that LifeWave is a scam, I am sincerely willing to try the patches under placebo controlled conditions so that I don't know which are the real patches and which are the placebos, and post the results here. I will conduct the tests as objectively as I am able, and I will report the results honestly.

The offer stands open to anybody who seems sincere and honest and who will supply me with LW patches and identically appearing placebo patches, whether a LW distributor or not.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 10:47 AM
Joel and Mickey,

Perhaps we should discuss the protocol online. Others may have some good ideas on how it could best be conducted.

Here are my thoughts:

I'm wondering how many patches would be needed to make this test worthwhile. Ten, 20 or 30? Maybe less, maybe more?

There should be no subjective analysis involved. In my opinion, Joel's time running the 3 miles and how he 'feels' is of importance only to him. All we should be judging is whether or not his is able to separate the 'good' patches and placebos (or expired patches) by an amount greater than could be expected by pure chance. What number should that be? Eighty or ninety percent? More or less?

Should we send the list of good patch/placebo numbers to a neutral third party? I would suggest the Museum of Hoaxes currator, Alex. Any other suggestions?

Perhap Joel should consider applying for the $1,000,000 Challenge for this test. The idea being that with $1,000,000 at stake, both sides will be confident Joel is giving it his best effort.

One final thing. In the interest of good sportsmanship, I would be willing to split the cost of the patches with Mickey. Lest anyone think I've lost my marbles, I plan to recoup the money by submitting an article about the test, regardless of the outcome, to the Skeptical Inquirer in the hope they would be interested in publishing it. If they reject it, at least I still have a tax deduction.

Any other ideas?
Mickey Mouse
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 11:21 AM
Captain,

An open online discussion in determining exact protocol is IMHO the only way to proceed.

I am also happy to share costs with you.

As the remainder of the crew start to read this including MOH curator Alex, please know your input is most welcome at this time.

Can one of the LW Distributors speak to LW and let them know there is a test being conducted and that we need PLACEBO patches.

OK lets keep the channels open until we are all comfortable.

Ps.....Can someone post Randi's exact protocol also?

Elveda
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 11:57 AM
Mickey,

The James Randi Educational Foundation does not have a test 'protocol' per se. Obviously someone claiming ESP powers would require a different test than someone claiming to have built a perpetual motion machine. For each claim, the applicant and the JREF negotiate a test procedure that is acceptable to both sides. If for some reason they cannot come to an agreement, the application is rejected.

However there are some rules and guidelines which are straightforward but understandably strict since after all, it involves a million dollars. You can read them at:

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

It's possible Joel may not be interested in getting that far involved. That's his decision. If he is, here are some relevant points:

1. Tests must be designed to give a definite yes or no result. No subjective interpretation should be necessary. We already have a good start on that.

2."You will most likely be asked to provide three (3) notarized affidavits from persons claiming to have witnessed this phenomenon before the JREF will accept your application for processing". This should pose no problem for us. There have been enough people posting here that believe the patches work. Perhaps you and Dina would be willing to sign for two of these.

3. I don't think we need Lifewave to supply placebos. Patches that are used and expired should be sufficient. Please note, Lifewave has refused to get involved with the JREF challenge before. We may not get much cooperation from them.
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 12:13 PM
Working out the protocol on line sounds good to me.

A neutral 3rd party like MOH moderator Alex to hold the placebo/patch key, and to receive my raw results and post them along with the key, sounds great to me. Before I begin, Alex will confirm that he received a LW/placebo listing that appears to conform to the agreed upon protocol. Alex, are you in?

We can all analyze the raw results after they are posted along with the key. As with any study, I'm sure there will be some room to validly disagree about what the raw results mean.

Objective measures like times are important. They're part of any valid study. We can argue about what the times do or don't mean after we see the results. If you want me to try to record my guess as to whether the patch I was wearing was a LW or a placebo after my run, I'd be happy to record that as well if I think I felt a noticeable difference. Does anybody else have any suggestion about what I should be recording?

I think 15 LW patch pairs, and 15 placebo patch pairs, should be a good sampling. That will represent a lot of miles for me as it is, so please nobody suggest 100 of each. The patch pairs will be sent to me labeled 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, etc., and for each pair whether the A or the B is the LW patch or the placebo patch will be randomized by whomever sends the patches to me.

I propose to run my 3-mile course about every 2nd or 3rd day, depending on my schedule. I will run using:

Run #1: placebo or patch
Run #2: the other of the placebo or patch
Run #3: no patch
(repeat for 15 pairs each)

I will randomize in which order I use the patch pairs, and whether I use the A or the B patches first for any given set.

I will record the date, the time of day, the air temperature since I seem to run slower when it's hot or humid, my weight, which patch pair I was wearing, any other conditions that seem pertinent (e.g., if I'm recovering from a flu), and whether I felt any noticeable difference wearing the patches. I haven't been running regularly, so there will (hopefully) be a general decrease in times as the testing progresses, but that shouldn't affect the validity of the tests.
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 12:19 PM
Captain Al, I don't think that used patches will be an acceptable substitute for placebos, because used patches will clearly have been been previously used (e.g., chest hairs sticking to the exposed adhesive - yuck).
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 12:20 PM
I forgot to mention a very important point, one that is often overlooked in most discussions about the JREF $1,000,000 Paranormal Challenge. I'm repeating it here so there are no misunderstandings or accusations should the applicant show evidence that their claim is real.

"In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

This is clearly stated in the rules. The applicant must pass two tests to get the money. The first test is to weed out applicants who obviously have no paranormal ablility. Conducting a formal test with these people would just waste everybody's time and money. The reason this is rarely mentioned is probably because no one has ever passed the preliminary tests and gone on to the next step. Don't get the idea the tests are rigged so the applicant fails. Remember, the test protocol is agreed to by both parties and Randi himself does not conduct the test. I don't see anything in the rulees that would prevent the applicant from having his or her own observers present to ensure the test is conducted fairly.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 12:26 PM
Joel,
In my opinion I don't think your time can be used as part of the test results. There would be too many factors that influence your time that we could not eliminate with only one test subject. I think it will be enough if you can just identify which patches are placebo and which are real.
Razela
in Chicago, IL
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 12:37 PM
I disagree. Even though time can vary by a lot, it should be obvious if there is a large and consistent difference. Doesn't Lifewave claim something along the lines of 40%?

I think the identification part is more subjective. Besides, that's not necessarily part of Lifewave's claim. They say that if you aren't tuned enough into your body or something, you won't feel a difference. It makes a good excuse from Lifewave when...sorry, if the test is a failure.
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 12:46 PM
Captain Al, feel free to ignore my times if you don't think the numbers will be useful. However, if I'm going to do all that testing, I want to record the results and analyze those results as part of satisfying my own intellectual curiosity, including whether I personally experienced a statistically measurable placebo effect. As I said, once the data is in, we can all discuss later what valid conclusions can be drawn from it.
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 01:11 PM
I have no interest in the JREF challenge at this time. Because I believe that Lifewave is a scam, I believe that applying for the prize would be a huge waste of time. If after trying the patches I conclude that I can reliably distinguish between LW patches and placebo patches, then and only then will I come knocking on JREF's door.
Coops
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 01:27 PM
These wavers sure get touchy when you explorer a raw cerebral nerve. Just because we don't buy into the "cell phone" theory we are the idiots. They would more readily believe the
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 01:31 PM
Joel, Razela,

I guess we are all kind of saying the same thing. Joel will use his run times to determine which patches are real and which are placebos. But he can also judge them by how he feels. Lifewave claims the patches give a person 40% more energy. This is something a person should be able to feel the moment the patches are applied. Perhaps there should be a column in the data for 'Perceived Energy Level'?

For the final decision though, will we compare Joel's patch list with Mickey's? or will everyone use the recorded times to help determine which are good patches and which are placebo?
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 01:34 PM
Coops,
The use of placebos in a controlled test would determine if your increased energy while wearing the patches is real or imagined.
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 01:50 PM
I'm happy to include a data column for "perceived energy level."

But "Perceived energy level" seems awfully subjective and unreliable to me. I know that my perceived energy level fluctuates greatly from one day to the next, including depending on whether I was up late the night before, whether my work at the office required a great deal of concentration that day, etc. But I'm happy to include it.

I don't think we need to agree beforehand on what the "final decision" will be based on. Unless a tester can reliably control every single variable except the one variable being tested, trying to interpret the results before they are, and expecting a "yes" or "no" answer, seems both unrealistic and unscientific. Interpretation of test results is a combination of both art and science. As long as we have a procedural protocol more or less agreed upon including what data to collect, we can proceed.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 01:50 PM
Joel,
I don't agree the JREF Challenge would be a waste of time even if you believe they are a scam. It would prove conclusively whether or not there is anything to Lifewave's claim. Conducting a real test is something the JREF has been anxious to do for some time now. Lifewave will have to accept the outcome, one way or another. If they choose to stand by and not get involved, then they will have no say in the test process.

Having said that, I realize it would involve more time than what you are proposing to do and can certainly understand your reluctance.
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 02:17 PM
Captain Al, per your posting on this page, "2.You will most likely be asked to provide three (3) notarized affidavits from persons claiming to have witnessed this phenomenon before the JREF will accept your application for processing".

I have no such affiants, and couldn't pass the initial screening anyway. Nothing would be proved by writing JREF and saying, "I have no reason to believe that LifeWave patches do anything, but you're welcome to send some people down here and observe me on numerous days while I go for my runs and test them out."
Joe
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 02:31 PM
Not to break the current momentum, but I thought this was interesting. The context of the article applied to Lifewave, especially the last quote.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16467558/wid/11915773?GT1=8921
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 02:38 PM
Joe, I don't know what your point is. Anna Nichole Smith has a lot of experience gaining and losing weight, and she wouldn't take or endorse Trim Spa unless it WORKED! I suppose you think she's an idiot.
Dina
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 02:57 PM
Joel, Yes I read the ap. And there are lots of reasons for signing something like that. Dr. means a lot of things and not just an M.D. Maybe it was signed this way to get the patches looked at seriously. Since obviously there are people out there who don't understand something making an impact without anything entering the body. Whatever the case, I have seen many different cases of what the patches did for people as well as myself. You or any other numbnut out there can challenge all you want. Without you trying them, you have NO VOICE.
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 03:15 PM
Dina, we all have a voice here. That's the beauty of this forum.

With you originally agreeing to provide to me LW patches and placebos in exchange for shipping costs, but then deciding not to, you have little credibility here. But that's ultimately up to the forum visitors to judge.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 06:04 PM
Ps.....Can someone post Randi's exact protocol also?

The exact protocol is devised by the person(s) applying for the challenge in TOTAL agreement with Randi's people.

Mr. Randi is not involved in formulating the protocol. If Micky was to apply, he/she would come up with the testing methods and only agree to proceed if BOTH sides were completely satisfied.

The rules set this out nicely.

http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

Dave
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 06:07 PM
Captain Al

Apologies for my redundant last post. I didn't notice there was a page 179. There certainly have been some busy fingers! All good stuff.

Dave
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 06:13 PM
Dina

"Not waste my time with your uninterest in the patches. i am busy and I have things to do and people to help."

Is this computer generated? Anybody?

Regardless, Dina, you are so busy yet here you are. Again and again...

Please don't stop "helping" people by wasting precious time on this forum (that nobody reads anyway, right?)

Dave
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 06:25 PM
Dina said:

"Joel, Yes I read the ap. And there are lots of reasons for signing something like that. Dr. means a lot of things and not just an M.D."

Here's the problem, Dina. It's well-established that "Dr." Schmidt does not possess an advanced degree of ANY kind. He would need one in SOMETHING to legitimately call himself a "doctor." No matter how you try to spin this issue, the FACT is that Schmidt is NOT a doctor of ANY kind. Period. If you believe that I am incorrect on this matter, the burden of proof is on YOU to provide evidence of his holding a doctoral-level degree in some field.

"Maybe it was signed this way to get the patches looked at seriously."

That would mean that he LIED about having an advanced degree. You really want to put your trust in a person who would lie about having an advanced degree to get attention for something that, if it worked as is claimed, would certainly get attention without any chicanery?
mickey mouse
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 06:32 PM
Thought this was an interesting article on James Randi. And being a skeptic and all, you have to admit he seems a little "out there"

To include Randi and his supposed $Million I would like for him to place the money in Escrow prior to any involvement with him and JREF because quite frankly, I think HE is a scam.

http://www.rense.com/general50/james.htm

Also with this descrpition of a man we are supposed to take seriously from Association for Skeptical Investigation, it sure seems to me that the great James Randi should be investigated by the very people who chant his name like any other under qualified self professed know it all.

Like a David Schmidt perhaps??

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/index.htm#JamesRandi

I eagerly await serious opinions on James Randi. Please think carefully prior to posting.

Slan
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 08:06 PM
Mickey says:

"James Randi should be investigated by the very people who chant his name like any other under qualified self professed know it all."

For what purpose? Randi's credibility or lack of it has no bearing on whether or not paranormal phenomena have a basis in reality. Either ESP is real or it isn't. Either dowsing is possible or it isn't. Either Lifewave patches work or they don't. These articles are just sour grapes by people who can't accept the fact that their pet areas of lunacy might be false. In almost every case I have read, complaints like this originate from people who make extraordinary claims but refuse to be tested. Forget Randi. Will Lifewave pass the test? I seriously doubt it but this is your chance to prove me wrong.

From your first link:
"on the Larry King show, King asked Randi: "Is one of the possibilities that Sylvia is telling the truth?" Randi's response to this was: "Absolutely."

In this response, Randi is merely giving a claimant the benifit of the doubt, something many of them, in my opinion, do not deserve. Of course Sylvia Browne might have psychic powers and be able to talk to the dead. Well then, let's test her and see for sure. Then we can stop arguing about it.

Also from the first link:
"Randi immediately and categorically rejected Kolodzey's application. The problem for Randi is the logic - or total lack thereof - he displayed in defending this rejection."

Kolodzey is a breatharian. He claims he can get all his body's nutritional needs from air he breathes. Mickey if you think this man could attempt to prove it without causing harm to himself then you must be just as crazy.

One of the rules of the challenge, and I do hope you eventually read them, states that claims which have potential to cause harm to the claimant will not be accepted. This is obviously necessary to avoid any legal liabilty if someone should be killed or injured trying to win the prize. Seeing as the prize is $1,000,000 it is inevitable there will be some lunatics who will risk bodily harm to try.

Some time ago, I started a thread about a man who applied for the $1,000,000 Challenge. He intended expose himself to the same poison gas the Nazis 'allegedly' used to exterminate Jews in the belief that if he lived it would prove the holocaust could not have happened. His application was also rejected. The JREF states there are more serious (relatively speaking) applicants to test. This in no way indicates any waffling on the attitudes of skeptics of the paranormal. It just shows common sense and respect for human life, even less than intelligent human life. If you take the time to read the log of Challenge applicants you will see the JREF is more than patient with crackpots like these and other less dangerous types:

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43

You were doing so well for a while Mickey. Then you had to resort to these lame attacks. Let's try to keep this as unbiased as we can, at least until the testing is completed.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 08:06 PM
Mickey

Sorry to disappoint you. You would know the answers to your questions if you had read this entire thread. It's ALL been covered.

You are dealing in OLD material.

Dave
Razela
in Chicago, IL
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 08:57 PM
"Razela, sorry I wasn
Razela
in Chicago, IL
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 08:58 PM
Heh then again, imagining all the lifewavers on drugs did explain alot =)
Mickey Mouse
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 09:02 PM
Captain

This has got nothing to do with our LW testing, it is going ahead full steam. I just want nothing to do with Jame Randi, he is a LIAR, dishonest and a fraud and I would not trust him as far as I could throw him.

And I doubt very much he even has 1 million Vietnamese Dong to pay out never mind the good 'ol
Ben Franklins....

So Dave I am glad everyone on this thread is aware of this fact and that is has been shown to be true in previous postings...but just in case people are joining us late and don't have time to pick thru the <b>"Randi For President"</b> nonsense, lets pick apart the second piece I posted, shall we...

<b>He used to be a leading figure in CSICOP, but had to resign because of litigation against him.</b> NICE CHAP - YOU KNOW WHAT THAT WAS FOR?

<b>
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 09:11 PM
I'm open to the possibility that Randi and the JREF challenge is a fraud and a publicity stunt. The best way to determine that is to . . . yes, test him. Perhaps one of the people who is skeptical of the JREF challenge could start a new MOH thread, and post all of his communications with JREF. If the communications show that JREF is not sincere about putting LifeWave to an honest test, that would be helpful information. Go for it.
Razela
in Chicago, IL
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 09:15 PM
"Proof in science happens through replication, not through single experiments."
I COULDN'T AGREE MORE....."

And you don't see a problem with Lifewave's lack of a single experiment?

Besides, none of that has to do with the test itself which isn't even conducted by Mr. Randi, but by the Foundation which bears his name. Also, the JREF is legally bound to have to pay out if the test is passed, so that's not really an excuse.

Seriously, I don't really understand what you are trying to get it. So you don't think Mr. Randi would be a nice guy to go get drinks with, what does it matter and what does it have to do with the JREF as a whole?
Joel
Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 09:23 PM
I agree, Mickey, we have LW patches to test.

Regarding those tests, I enjoy running but I'd be happy to throw in another reasonable test of your choice at the end of my run. Say, after a 10 minute recovery period I'll do as many pushups as I can. They also have pullup and dip bars where I run. You choose.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 09:23 PM
Mickey,
I wish I had more time to respond to your allegations. They have all been covered before. I'm off to my next job assignment at the crack of dawn tomorrow so I won't be on as often as I'd like for a while. Just let me say for now that every one of your 'accusations' is BS or taken completely out of context. That's a sure sign of a truly desperate opposition.

"SO WHY IS HE HELL BENT ON PROVING EVERYTHING IN DOUBLE BLIND PLACEBO CONTROLLED TESTS??"

That statement only shows how little you understand the scientific method and how little research you have done on this whole subject.

So long for now. Tommorow's going to be a long day for me.
Mickey Mouse
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 10:33 PM
Razela,

Let me try to make it simple for you.

Being skeptical is the greatest gift anyone can have. Learning not to be gullible, can sometimes be a very <b>"painful lesson". </b>

James Randi is an obvious fraud. He is a documented self confessed liar. Has shown his ability to debunk TRUE scientists without even looking at their material and has a cult following who think he is "The Messiah"

He sells books that his skeptical peers claim
Dina
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 | 11:00 PM
Again, EDIK aka Dave, what's your relation to David? I'd like to check the relation because I know him very well.
Razela
in Chicago, IL
 Member
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 | 12:19 AM
Mickey, you dodged my comments and questions all together. Let me explain in a different way

(1) What does James Randi's character have to do with the JREF? Even if he isn't a nice guy, or says mean things or whatever, what does it have to do with the foundation as a whole and more specifically, the challenge? Mr. Randi may head up the foundation, but they are still two separate entities.

(2) If you are going to call the JREF a fraud organization, at least show one shred of evidence first. What makes them fraudulent? Does the money they receive in donations go to Mr. Randi rather than the organization's cause? Maybe you should call the IRS if you think there is embezzlement going on.
Razela
in Chicago, IL
 Member
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 | 12:22 AM
Dina, I know I'm not Dave, but what exactly are you getting at? You really think Dave has some sort of relationship with DS? What kind of relationship do you mean? Do you think Dave works for him, or is a scorned ex-boyfriend or something?
hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
 Member
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 | 12:34 AM
I am not yet a card-carrying money-paying member of the JREF. If I weren't poor, I probably would be, since I've seen nothing that indicates that it's anything but legit.

I am a member of the forum, which is (as far as I know) the most visible part of the JREF.

I know lots of forum members who have actually met James Randi, and many others who are looking forward to meeting him later this month. I have yet to hear him referred to as "The Messiah", or even as a god-like entity.

There are even plenty of members who have no problem criticizing him, and when it happens, there is usually a fair, balanced argument with proof in either direction. Occasionally, Randi himself will get involved, mostly just to provide information that is obviously easiest for him to have access to.

Having said all that...the JREF is a community and a foundation. It bears James Randi's name, but it and James Randi are not the same thing.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 | 01:05 AM
Mickey Mouse said:

"To include Randi and his supposed $Million I would like for him to place the money in Escrow prior to any involvement with him and JREF because quite frankly, I think HE is a scam."

If you bothered to actually read the section of Randi's site concerned with the Million Dollar Challenge, you'd see that he gives the name of the Wall Street firm which holds the money in an account. This nonsense about the money allegedly not existing has been answered and refuted over and over. IT'S ON THE SITE FOR YOU TO SEE IF YOU JUST BOTHER TO LOOK.

"James Randi is an obvious fraud. He is a documented self confessed liar. Has shown his ability to debunk TRUE scientists without even looking at their material and has a cult following who think he is "The Messiah"

Where has Randi "confessed" to being a liar? Are you referring to the old thing where he has called himself a "charlatan" by which he was referring to his career as a magician/illusionist?

"He sells books that his skeptical peers claim
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 | 01:10 AM
OK, for anyone who believes that Randi's Foundation doesn't actually have the million dollars, here's the information you need:

http://randi.org/research/faq.html#3.1

Since THAT excuse for not applying for the Million Dollar Challenge has now been taken away from you, what new rationalization would you care to employ?
UGB
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 | 02:12 AM
EDHUK
Thought I would check in and see what your up to. I can see you and the protectors of mankind have been very busy. Sorry but I haven't went threw all the pages.
I was wondering if you or any of the other protectors of mankind have taken up Lifewave on the free patch offer or are you guys still worried D.S. is still waiting to just collect those Credit card #s to fund his extravogant life style.

Just for your info that placebo effect is still working great for me, I am still get reid of most types of pain at a 80 to 90% rate.
All I do is tell people that these patches might help them with there pain and then put them on and there pain goes away. Not all types of pain but muscle pain they are very effective on.

And then I got these funny pink patches I tell people to put them on 6 nights in a row and they will get a better nights sleep. Most of the time they get back to me after a few nights and say they haven't slept like this good in years.

Jupiter I seen I offended you last time
Sorry about that I mis read your comments.

Just for your info I have never seen anything or heard D.S. say he was a Doctor and I have even heard him correct people who called him Doctor. If someone has that I would like to see that.

God bless you guys

UGB

Just in case you still haven't tried the patches
give me your address and I will pay for shipping.
D.S. already has my credit card info and is funding his lifestyle on my card. LOL
http://www.lifewave.com/ugbenergy

Have you read the studies on the site are they just all hoaxes or what.
Dina
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 | 08:57 AM
UBG, Razel note at bottom

This forum puts down everything with Lifewave including David and Dr. Haltiwanger. If you want to waste time with people that make a mockery out of Lifewave, God bless ya! I too thought I was doing good by giving this forum something great but they think it's all a scam and David's a scam along with all of us. Apparently you, I and others we know, everything the patches do for us, is all in our minds. That the patches do not work. You can talk to these people until your blue in the face and they will say they want to try the patches but really, I told them to call customer service at 866-420-6288 and let them know they want to be a case study for free. So far, no one has done that or called to send a check instead of a credit card # for patches. So really, they are ALL screwing with you and they have their opinion on something they know NOTHING about and it WILL NOT change. I suggest you let this go as I am and move on to helping people that truly want help with what Lifewave can do.
Razella, since EDIK has all these horrible things to say about David, I want to know how close he is to him. I personally know David and I want to ask David S. What's up with EDIK.
Razela
in Chicago, IL
 Member
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 | 09:54 AM
Dina, I think you'll find that EDHUK is just a random person who was looking up information on Lifewave, found this forum, and took up the cause. In fact, I believe you'll find the same about all us skeptics that post here.
Joel
Member
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 | 10:09 AM
Dina, as long as we're following up on unanswered questions, you represented on page 178 of this forum that, "No one gets paid to wear the patches." Please state for the record whether this is a true statement or whether you simply made it up because it sounded good. If you think it's a true statement, what is your basis for believing it to be true? It sure looks to me that at least Ronnie Coleman and Sagi Kalev were paid to wear and endorse the patches, but I don't know that for a fact.

I think this is an important point, and one that goes directly to LifeWave's honesty and credibility, and to yours.
Joel
Member
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 | 10:24 AM
UGB, this is in response to your question about where DS claimed to be
Joel
Member
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 | 10:42 AM
Mickey, you asked you page 180, "Honestly tell me - If YOU had the 'secret formula' would YOU tell the world so they could be copied and Made In China for 2 cents a pop....or would you create confusion, until the competition caught up...."

Depending on a variety of factors which always have to be weighed for any given new technology, I would either patent the product or keep the formula a trade secret, although patenting is usually the better way to go. But I definitely wouldn't lie to the government about what was in my patches and the supposed science on which it is based, or fail to disclose to the PTO the nearest known prior art. In the law, that's called "fraud on the Patent Office," and can be the basis for various legal claims against the company depending on what other circumstances are present which I won't go into here.

I also wouldn't falsely represent my credentials, or make statements of fact on my company's website about how my product works, in an effort to induce people to part with their money. That's called fraud on the public.
Mickey Mouse
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 | 11:04 AM
Joel says:
"But I definitely wouldn't lie to the government..."

Yes bring it to the Government - they are honest unbiased and would love to see cheap effective ways of helping the sheeple.

Just like the noble Stanley Meyers who didn't want his technology used by the big bad "Arabs". He patented his technology (but tweaked it a little) so as not to make it duplicatable and brought it to the US Gov & NASA. Unfortunately at their meeting something he ate happened to poison him to death, what a coincidence!!! Just so happens that at exactly the same time his house was getting raided and his technology stolen by "unknown" persons. Wonder what shade of green Stan was???

see http://www.waterpoweredcar.com
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