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LifeWave Energy Patches
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Posted By:
Fawkes
Feb 24, 2005
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Now you can get more energy from a patch! I especially like the way that
they "believe" that it works. It is also based on years of research from
many fields. While the research may be valid, I'm not sure that their
results were intended to be used with a "patent pending blend of water,
oxygen, amino acids and organics applied to a polyester fabric and sealed
within a polymer shell".
http://www.contactplus.com/lifewave.htm
We can finally have our super-soldiers now!
Category: Health; Replies: 5918 |
Comments
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Page 54 of 99 pages ‹ First < 52 53 54 55 56 > Last › |
Joel
Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 | 11:41 AM
Captain Al and Razela are correct, that it doesn't take an E.E.'s training to quickly conclude that Lifewave's fairy tale about honey and molasses acting as tiny little cellphones is utter bullshit. Common sense is all that is needed.
Is there a single Lifewave person out there who is willing to stand up and say, "My name is _______. With both my professional reputation and my personal reputation on the line, I state for the record that I truly and honestly believe that Lifewave patches act as tiny little cell phones to send frequency modulated radio signals to the human body that tell the cells to burn more fat, or feel less pain, or sleep better and stop snoring, depending on the patch."
Dina, I have sent to you a detailed proposed protocol for our tests. I hope the insults you've spewed don't mean that you're backing out of our tests, the results of which I intend to post. |
EDHUK
Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 | 11:42 AM
"It is plain to me that I am dealing with morons and now this cult has something to talk about since I started on this ridiculuos forum. I will not be on again."
Oh Dina, I do hope you mean it!
Dave |
hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 | 01:04 PM
"Okay cult people. I've read your first 10-30 pages and guess what? Nothing. Clearly you all are closed minded Republicans that are black and white and speak about things they know nothing about."
I wonder if Dina realizes that she insults open minded other-than-Republicans with her post... |
Joel
Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 | 03:43 PM
"Okay cult people." Methinks the lady has it backwards. |
Joe
Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 | 04:28 PM
If I put on a Lifewave patch, will I then be knowledgeable about meridians, human electromagnetic fields, acupressure and acupucture? I guess reading articles and information online will not make me knowledgeable about it. I guess that is another benefit of the Lifewave patch; I gain more knowledge about the product instantly!
We have had people post on this forum stating that they don't know how the patches work, but that they just do. They have used the product, but still can't speak of it. |
EDHUK
Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 | 05:14 PM
The latest contender in the "Let's prove I'm an idiot in less than a week" contest has accomplished the task in 5 days, give or take.
Logging on Monday 18th:
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 | 12:08 PM
"Unfortunately for unhealthy America, most of you do not understand yourselves, or are in tuned with their bodies to "get" the Lifewave patches. If you have not tried them, you do not have room to talk or comment one."
Logging off today:
Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 | 07:55 AM
"It is plain to me that I am dealing with morons and now this cult has something to talk about since I started on this ridiculuos forum. I will not be on again."
So, what have we learned about the amazing LifeWave patches from this new contender?
Nothing.
Just like all the other "educators" she has given us the same old tired line from the LifeWave company. She obviously believes Schmidt is a scientist, but can give no proof. We all know about his two year business degree and the total lack of ANY scientific qualifications (thanks to the ex Mrs. Schmidt).
Our latest contender has a nice little plan to sell patches through her hair and nails business. She cannot afford to entertain the idea that this might just be a scam because then she would not sound sincere in her sales pitch.
Her customers will not treat her kindly if they purchase the patches due to her sales pitch, only to find out there is no substance to the claims.
Dina has ignored the latest research on placebo effect and REAL changes in the human body. If she acknowledged the study she would have to concede LifeWave may just be a placebo selling MLM.
All in all an interesting 5 days, but PLEASE let's have someone with higher than a 9th grade education next time.
Dave |
Joel
Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 | 05:30 PM
Joe, that's not all you'll get if you put on a Lifewave patch. You'll also become instantly knowledgeable about resonant energy, swirling energy vortices, the flow of chi through horses, harmonic convergence, and any other subjects mentioned anywhere in DS's patent applications or marketing literature.
That's right, folks, there's no more need to buy and study those expensive, heavy, time consuming, and annoying textbooks, or take any courses at a university, or pass any certification tests. Just put on a patch, and when somebody tries to educate you about what's in the patch and explain how you got suckered, just lean forward and call that person an ignorant closed-minded moron because he's not wearing a patch, then sit back and feel oh so pleased with yourself. |
hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 | 06:03 PM
And, y'know...she promised both Joel and me patches to try. If she's done here, how are we supposed to make arrangements with her? |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 | 06:34 PM
hcmomof4,
Sorry we chased her away before you had a chance to get some samples. You'll have to work faster next time. |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 | 11:49 PM
<b>Dina/george/Todd </b>- The moderators of this site take a dim view of creating multiple personalities to help support your point of view. I'm willing to buy the whole 'shared computer' bit to an extent, but two of you are using the same email address. Please post under only one persona per thread.
Charybdis - <b>Moderator</b> |
hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
Member
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 | 12:04 AM
Now, if only there were "Increase Intelligence" patches... |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 | 08:11 AM
Like their mentors at Lifewave head office, these people need to lie and misrepresent themselves in order to support their case. What does that say about their product? |
Razela
in Chicago, IL
Member
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 | 11:47 AM
Todd? Who was that? I don't remember a Todd. |
EDHUK
Member
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 | 12:35 PM
Razela:
The Todd persona gave us such wisdom as:
Todd
Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 | 01:42 PM
"Cranky Media Guy,
The medical field is the biggest quackery of them all. Backed by not one ounce of scientific research that works...."
Wow no valid medical research.
Todd/George/Dina or whoever that was made a glorious case for not buying into the LifeWave scam.
Funny how that can happen.
Meanwhile, David Schmidt (who is not a Dr. of course) is laughing all the way to the bank. He's counting the months that his scam has brought in the cash.
Does he care about this forum thread? Of course not. Why should he?
Consider this. If a genuine scientist, with a genuine product backed up by real scientific studies and a business to sell the product, was made aware of this site, do you think he would allow the comments about his scam product and his lack of morals/ethics to go unchallenged?
?
Christmas Greetings,
Dave |
Mickey Mouse
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 | 07:16 PM
I have a question for all you skeptics out there....
You seem to quote the word "placebo" as being everything that YOU cannot prove.
Please explain what exactly is a "placebo"
Its not just a notion that being aware changes the outcome.....surely thats Quantum Physics and total bullshit....maybe its just energetic or chi, but thats bullshit too.....
OK now skeptics are feverishly scratching heads...how does a placebo work?.....all we seriously have to do is think we get better and we actually do.....now that a skeptics nightmare...
So again.....explain scientifically WHAT IS A PLACEBO? |
EDHUK
Member
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 | 09:28 PM
Hi Mickey,
Not quite sure what point you are reaching for here, but most people understand the old concept of a placebo.
In place of a treatment, say a drug, an innocuous substance is substituted. Some people improve despite not actually receiving the drug. The medical world uses a variety of placebo drugs on a regular basis. Perhaps you have even been subjected to the use of a placebo without your knowledge.
The thinking about placebos was radically challenged by the groundbreaking study from 2005.
Scientists demonstrated remarkable pain control in subjects who received placebo pain medicine (IV saline).
The difference in this study was the use of PET scan technology to show real changes in the brain and the production of pain killers by the subjects just by believing they were receiving a drug via the saline drip.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7892
If you care to research the subject you'll find other studies that replicate the findings have been performed. In other words REAL SCIENCE.
David Schmidt (MLM businessman and NON SCIENTIST) claims to have invented a technology so amazing that every man woman and child on the face of the earth could benefit from its implications.
The REAL SCIENCE behind his discovery has been widely available for the scientific community to replicate and verify, right?
Wrong. The MLM company has from time to time made claims about studies that have been performed, or "are coming" in an attempt to give some semblance of true scientific depth and authority.
LifeWavers have, and still do, quote verbatem from the LifeWave website (now in version 3) with little to no understanding of the background of these "studies".
This thread has been going long enough for a great deal of due diligence to have been carried out by a great number of people.
A number of us have not been willing to take claims at face value and have emailed various people around the world. The replies have confirmed our gut feelings.
LifeWave LLC is a company headed up by a complete fraud selling a bogus product. The company has based it's reputation and legal ability to sell its product by stating the patches are non-transdermal.
Should it eventually turn out that real substances are being absorbed through the skin of users causing bodily changes, the FDA will want to have a cosy chat.
For other words about placebo try typing the word into any search engine of your choice.
Cheers, and enjoy the Holidays.
Dave |
EDHUK
Member
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 | 09:38 PM
Nice example of a double blind study using placebo medication involving chronic fatigue syndrome and other interesting reports on placebos.
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/100_heal.html
http://www.bcx.net/hypnosis/placebo.htm
http://www.med.umich.edu/opm/newspage/2005/placebo.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/ethics/2005-04-07-placebo-effective_x.htm?csp=15 |
Mickey Mouse
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 | 09:54 PM
OK so you have proven that people can get exactly the same response from just thinking about getting well....
this is based on energy?
this is based on chi?
explain this placebo mechanism?
How does REAL SCIENCE explain exactly how a placebo works?
I understand the double blind controlled study...blah blah blah.....
But when the placebo works just as well...
WHAT IS THE SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION....?
Why do those results keep showing up time after time.....using sugar pills or water pills or whatever?
David Scmidt and Lifewave have a product that may or may not work. Who cares really? If you want to try it go for it if you don't then don't.
But to say it is quackery and quack louder than any without even trying it IMHO is pretty lame.
I can just picture your ancestors arguing til they were blue in the face that the world was flat, how could it be anything else.
Does the heart actually pump blood around the body.....some scientists today even disagree.
Is Pluto a planet or a TNO?
A good little site regarding energy can be found at http://www.raisingyourenergy.com these guys apparently don't charge anything for their service. So quackery or not, you don't even have to pay for your placebo.
Placebos work on some level, that much we agree on....but how do you scientifically prove how it works......if you can't you are a hippocrite.....using something to defend your case and you can't scientifically explain it....
Thats all.....
Merry Christmas or whatever your supposed to say these days without getting hung out to dry.... |
EDHUK
Member
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 | 10:26 PM
Micky,
The problem is that DS has made claims about a whole new science he has "invented". He has based a MLM business on his claims and sits atop the money making pyramid.
You may consider that to be fair game. I don't.
Cheers,
Dave |
EDHUK
Member
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 | 10:36 PM
Micky
"Placebos work on some level, that much we agree on....but how do you scientifically prove how it works......if you can't you are a hippocrite.....using something to defend your case and you can't scientifically explain it...."
Isn't this what David Schmidt is doing right now?
He is selling a product and is unable to demonstrate how it works or that it works at all. Isn't he a hypocrite?
All that posters here have asked for is universally accepted evidence that David Schmidt's claims are valid.
James Randi will gladly hand over One Million Dollars if David Schmidt demonstrates that his products work. Why won't he take the money?
At any level, aren't you even the slightest bit suspicious of a man who signs as a "Dr." when he is not. Claims to have a scientific background when he does not. Has had some "good" people in his company who have left having seen the light.
Has an ex-wife who revealed that DS mixed the contents of the patches in his own home with children and pets in attendance.
If the product is real why has NOBODY taken the Million bucks?
It just doesn't make any rational sense.
Dave |
Mickey Mouse
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 | 11:15 PM
Dave
Are we talking what is fair or what is science?
David Schmidt didn't invent energy no one did it has always been there.
Let me tell you how the LW patches work. Its not rocket science but you do need to be a little openminded to try and understand.
Everything in this world has a frequency therefore everything resonates or vibrates. All DS has done is found a way to clone frequencies in to perishable products locked inside a polymer patch.
A simple ABPA can create LW patches using band aids.
It is not nanotechnology (maybe nano particles used inside the patch) the frequency holds until the particle begins to break down and rot from the heat supplied by the body.
This is why when you leave LW patches in the sun or in a car in the sun they DO NOT WORK.
Check out Radionics or the work of Rife or Lakhovsky this will show you how the patches work.
Again just like a placebo, this is unexplainable scientifically....but that don't mean it ain't true....
As for DS and LW, heck he is a true American, selling a product that breaks down and needs to be replaced...is that not what industry is based on??? some call this genius....and pay people alot of money to find ways of creating just that very system....
not very profitable if we use the same thing for years without needing to replace it....
instead of selling a Harmony Patch or the equivalent he sells patches that are used discarded and replaced on a monthly basis.
MLM have some great products and some scams this is true.....is LW one of the greats?? Again who cares?
As Henry Ford once said "Whether you believe it or not - Either way you are right"
Let me ask you about fair and honest business.
I pay $30k for a car that costs $4k to make is that fair?
I pay $1 million for a house I buy for $200k is this fair?
I pay ILLEGAL income taxes to a private organisation called the IRS or they will throw my ass in jail is that fair?
Don't get me wrong I am FOR taxes, but like you against corruption.
Let me ask you this hypothetical question?
Your son develops cancer tried eveything and nothing worked. Tries Vitamin C in high doses and his cancer goes away? In your mind the Vitamin C cured your son of his cancer.
The next 50 people you tell who have cancer try the exact protocol your son tried and it does nothing for them. NOTHING and they all die from their cancer.
Would Vitamin C in your mind still be a useful remedy for treating cancer???
You see what works for me, might not be suitable for you or vice versa.....nothing works 100% of the time or we would all be using it.
Remember Freedom of Choice, we all should take our health into our own hands and choose what is best for us, because it is pretty clear to me that science and medicine has dropped the ball or handed it over to the pharmaceutical companies.
So IF wearing a LW patch helps me.....if wearing a Harmony patch helps me...who are you to say that it doesn't work.....
Even if it is a whole bunch of baloney the bottom line is I still FEEL BETTER....and I am paying for it.....
kinda like buying a lottery ticket....for those five hours before the numbers come I get to dream for my $3.....
owning a lottery ticket is like the placebo of being rich....
happy turkey day....
MM |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 01:25 AM
Mickey Mouse said:
"Everything in this world has a frequency therefore everything resonates or vibrates. All DS has done is found a way to clone frequencies in to perishable products locked inside a polymer patch."
Oh, is THAT all he's done? First off, what does that first sentence I quoted above mean?
Second, even assuming that what you said actually makes sense, why would "cloning frequencies" create energy?
"A simple ABPA can create LW patches using band aids."
Forgive my ignorance, but what is an ABPA?
"Let me ask you about fair and honest business.
"I pay $30k for a car that costs $4k to make is that fair?
"I pay $1 million for a house I buy for $200k is this fair?"
Those profits are because of market forces. You can only sell your $200k house for $1 million if someone wants to PAY that much.
In any case, everyone knows what a house or car is and does. If Ford sold a car with no engine which they claimed would move down the road at 60 MPH anyway, they would be in the same class as LifeWave.
"So IF wearing a LW patch helps me.....if wearing a Harmony patch helps me...who are you to say that it doesn't work....."
Things are testable scientifically. If we test LifeWave under controlled scientific conditions and they fail to produce the promised results, then it's SCIENCE who is saying that they don't work. What part of this are you having difficulty with?
I notice that you have avoided answering EDHUK's questions regarding Schmidt's multiple lies about his own background and LifeWave. Seriously, don't those things bother you? |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 01:44 AM
"Cranky Media Guy,
The medical field is the biggest quackery of them all. Backed by not one ounce of scientific research that works...."
Wow, how did I miss THAT one?
Someone seriously believes that medical science is backed up by NO research?
Yeah, that Jonas Salk was a big friggin' fraud, huh? And how about all those iron lungs you see everywhere you go? Not to mention all the tubercular people you pass on the street.
To be serious for a moment, I think a lot of "alternative medicine" proponents confuse medical science with the pharmaceutical industry.
Through the 80' and early 90's I was married to a hospital pharmacy director. I heard many stories about drug salesmen and their hard-sell tactics to doctors and my wife. I therefore have a *little* sympathy for the alt-med people's point of view. What they're REALLY angry about is the Big Pharmaceutical Companies, NOT medical research, but they don't seem to make a distinction between the two, which is a fundamental error.
If you honestly don't realize that medicine has made enormous strides over the past hundred or so years, you don't know enough to have a valid opinion of "mainstream" medicine. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 02:18 AM
Todd said:
"400,000 people in America are killed annually in which the death certificate reads "Death by adverse reaction to prescription drugs"."
Todd, may I ask where you got that alleged statistic?
"If you should find a healthy enough Medicine Doctor who has any drive whatsoever in disproving what I have said, have them email me and we will have a fun little challenge in which you can videotape for the world to see who has the superior mind and body. It will not be a medicine man or woman, I assure you that."
Honestly, I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, but I have NO idea what you're trying to say there. What is it you want to challege a medical doctor to do? |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 02:21 AM
Dina said:
"Cranky Guy,
I will be more than happy to give you a trial."
Dina, I realize this is a VERY long thread, but you look back a ways, you'll find that I was actually sent a few patches by another distributor. I passed them on to my wife to try. She felt NO effect whatsoever, positive or negative. James Randi asked me to send them to him. I did and he put a picture of them on his website. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 02:30 AM
Dina said:
"5 years ago there was a study with Moorehouse and Troy. The testing was VERY successful but because it was a new technology that people didn't understand, the coaches were getting so many phone calls a day."
Apologies for the slow response to this, Dina. The Morehouse thing was discussed on this thread months ago. I mentioned the alleged Morehouse connection to James Randi when I spoke to him on the phone back then. He was very interested and apparently looked into it. As reported on his website, Morehouse has denied any connection at all to LifeWave. In fact, if I remember correctly, they University requested that LifeWave stop using its name in connection with any of LW's products.
If you have been told the Morehouse story recently by anyone connected with LifeWave, you should sever contact with them, as they are lying to you. At this point, there is just NO excuse for anyone connected with LifeWave to continue to spread that horse manure. |
EDHUK
Member
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 07:57 AM
Mickey
"Let me tell you how the LW patches work."
Oh no, not ANOTHER educator.
Been there, done that.
Read this thread...ALL of it.
Your LifeWaver colleagues have used every point you have made and each has systematically been dealt with.
Thank you so much for trying to bring some useful insight in to this thread about the bogus claims of a non-scientist and scam artist, David Schmidt.
Unfortunately, you have failed miserably. Why is that?
Dave |
EDHUK
Member
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 08:03 AM
CMG
"A simple ABPA can create LW patches using band aids."
Forgive my ignorance, but what is an ABPA?
Surely everyone knows about the abpa?
Very nice group of people who are adept at using simple devices such as band aids to create groundbreaking patches that "transmit" signals to the human body to "make more energy".
Easy.
http://www.abpa.org.au/
Have a great Christmas CMG.
Dave
EDH UK |
Mickey Mouse
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 10:27 AM
Cranky Media Guy wrote:
"Those profits are because of market forces. You can only sell your $200k house for $1 million if someone wants to PAY that much."
I was talking about mortgagae payments on your $200k house....and you are right if someone want to pay that much its up to them. So what the difference if someone chooses to pay $85 for patches that don't work?
Market force tells us people are willing to pay for a placebo because science has let us down. What's the problem with that?
"I notice that you have avoided answering EDHUK's questions regarding Schmidt's multiple lies about his own background and LifeWave. Seriously, don't those things bother you?"
No those things don't bother me. In a system as corrupt as this if I took sides I may end up as conditioned as you guys. And frankly the thought of money and lots of it makes people do crazy things....good science and scientists have turned bad on hundreds of occasions from those thousands of scientific researchers you quote often because of MONEY. If you want funding these days you come up with the results the FUNDER needs. And everyone is happy...in the name of scientific advancement.
Lies & Deception are part of the way the game is played in the 21st Century, you only need to look to our fearless leaders (worldwide) it is difficult for people to be honest when the people who control them are blatanly corrupt, without consequence.
So has David Schmidt lied? Probably hundreds of times, maybe we should just LYNCH HIM....yeah that would be a good punishment. How dare someone without power or connections in this corrupt society do exactly what the powerful and connected people who control our world are doing. We should sniff them out and PUNISH THEM.
So no it doesn't bother me to see Schmidt lying to make a living, it seems perfectly feasable that he or anyone would think that was OK.
So Cranky Guy in reference to AVOIDING QUESTIONS as Dave so eloquently has done, before turning nasty on me....Sorry Dave you were such a nice boy answering very nicely, until Cranky Guy came on board then you flipped.....he your guru? His little bottom must be very full of lip imprints these days...lol.....
Anyway my question is this.
Scientifically explain the reasoning behind the PLACEBO. You claim "Things are testable scientifically." So how does science explain that by giving someone nothing but a thought, that it can have the same effect as their billion dollar drugs?
And why if it is unexplainable do YOU use it to defend science that is fully testable?
Also talking about scientific advances and how if things cannot be explained they must not be real.....Explain ELECTRICITY? Where does it come from and how does it exactly work scientifically? Maybe YOU could win Randi's million....
If you can't explain exactly (as science can't) the who what when where why of electricity are you not a hypocrite for using it?
And getting back to basics on ethics, what is the difference in you using electricity which you can't fully explain and using Lifewave patches that you also can't explain?
For what its worth on the LW patches....I have used them and know others who have used them.
Sometimes they worked noticeably sometimes not.
I no longer use them, but know that should I ever feel the need that they are there and a healthy shot of placebo never done anyone any harm.
Happy Hannuka |
EDHUK
Member
|
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 11:17 AM
Mickey
"So no it doesn't bother me to see Schmidt lying to make a living, it seems perfectly feasable that he or anyone would think that was OK."
Thank you for explaining the "science" behind the patches.
The tradition of the snake oil salesman lives on.
Dave |
hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
Member
|
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 11:38 AM
Science has forgotten how electricity works? |
Razela
in Chicago, IL
Member
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 12:06 PM
"So what the difference if someone chooses to pay $85 for patches that don't work?"
You honestly don't see a problem with that? |
Mickey Mouse
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 02:00 PM
"So what the difference if someone chooses to pay $85 for patches that don't work?"
No I don't see a problem with that. Remember FREE COUNTRY & FREEDOM OF CHOICE or are you a COMMUNIST disguised as a believer of democracy ...even though the old 51% telling 49% what to do thing still baffles me....
Now what I do have a problem with is DEADLY POISONOUS HIGHLY TOXIC things that don't work like chemotherapy or Radiation treatments...but even when you choose to NOT have those treatments they are forced upon you by the corrupt legal system.
Then we have deadly neurotoxins in the name of health "pushed" on us by drug dealers....aspartame and flouride jump to mind right away....
And Dave you have shown your juvenile nature picking one sentence out of a post as "PROOF" of the "science" and again you did not answer my question - for the third time...SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAIN PLACEBO EFFECT?
You did say "For other words about placebo try typing the word into any search engine of your choice." although you freely give your opinion on everything else....tell me WHY you think the placebo works...pretty simple request????
AGAIN and this goes for Cranky Dude, homoF4 and Azelia too.....
SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAIN HOW THE PLACEBO EFFECT WORKS OR STOP USING IT TO DEFEND THE THINGS YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN
Now go eat some turkey like good little boys build up your strength, pray Satana brought you your "I'm gonna save the world Superhero cape" and get right back on the case after Crimbo.
The way I look at it is like this....
IF you really want to do good and really give a rats ass about people getting duped - why waste your time with small fry like Schmidt. Go after the bigger fish and fry them.....thats the best deterent for the small fry.....
Wouldn't be surprised if you crew are pulling paychecks or "bonuses" from the people you are protecting.....because it certainly ain't me you are speaking for.....
Hakuna Matata |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 02:16 PM
Mickey Mouse, your entire argument seems to me to reduce to, "People other than David Schmidt are crooks. Some of them are BIGGER crooks. Therefore, it's OK for David Schmidt to be a crook."
Didn't your parents ever tell you that two wrongs don't make a right?
My response to your comments about the price of cars and homes was intended to demonstrate that those two items are not misrepresented to the buyer, unlike LifeWave. We all KNOW what a car or house does. No one thinks that either of those will cure whatever disease(s) they may have. Generally speaking, there is no fraud involved in the sale or purchase of either of them (yes, I'm sure you can find an exception here and there, but you should be able to see my point).
LifeWave is represented as being able to do something it simply cannot, therefore its sale, at any price, is fraud.
You're edging closer and closer all the time to admitting that you KNOW full well that LifeWave is a fraud. Are you REALLY sure you want to climb that far out on that limb? There is no particular reason that your statements on this forum CAN'T come back to haunt you in a court of law. |
Razela
in Chicago, IL
Member
|
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 03:34 PM
"No I don't see a problem with that. Remember FREE COUNTRY & FREEDOM OF CHOICE or are you a COMMUNIST disguised as a believer of democracy"
Freedom of choice and democracy only work in a system where the public is educated about their choices. That's why democracy has failed in many countries throughout the world. In the case of Lifewave, it does make a difference because the public can't be expected to make a choice when the choices are being misrepresented. That's why there are so many laws protecting the consumer against fraud. I don't really see what that has to do with democracy though. Are you perhaps confusing democracy with capitalism? They are two very separate ideas.
"...even though the old 51% telling 49% what to do thing still baffles me...."
That's why America is a Republic, not a democracy. Majority rules with minority rights. The Judicial Branch protects the rights of minorities. Look at the Massachusetts Supreme Court Case Goodridge v. Department of Health Massachusetts. Even though the majority in the state, as well as most of the legislators were against gay marriage, individuals in the gay minority were able to sue the state and win their rights, even when the majority disagreed. I really don't see what this has to do with Lifewave though, please enlighten me.
The rest of your post is just ignorant ranting, which I doesn't even deserve a response. |
Cranky Media Guy
|
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 04:41 PM
EDHUK said:
"Surely everyone knows about the abpa?
"Very nice group of people who are adept at using simple devices such as band aids to create groundbreaking patches that 'transmit signals to the human body to 'make more energy'."
Well, who am I to argue with the Australian Bush Poets Association? I stand corrected. |
Mickey Mouse
|
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 08:43 PM
Very Cranky Dude said:
"There is no particular reason that your statements on this forum CAN'T come back to haunt you in a court of law."
Well actually there is one glaring reason...my statements are my opinions and I am as entitled to them as you are to yours. So if that was some feeble atempt to scare me, you will have to do better than that....
"Freedom of choice and democracy only work in a system where the public is educated about their choices."
BINGO we have a winner. So why are you hell bent on eliminating one of our choices? Just because its not your choice doesn't make it any less a choice.
Ok I am going to start a Time and Date thing for Skeptics to answer my question.
2 Days and still NO ANSWERS......
CAN YOU SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAIN THE PLACEBO EFFECT?
HOW CAN YOU PUT A THOUGHT INTO SOMEONES MIND AND IT WORK EXACTLY LIKE THE DRUG PRESCRIBED?
HOW DOES SCIENCE MEASURE THIS?
I'll be waiting.....tick tock tick tock....
Mahalo..... |
EDHUK
Member
|
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 09:32 PM
Micky from the land of Loony Tunes (how appropriate).
"Ok I am going to start a Time and Date thing for Skeptics to answer my question."
Sorry to disappoint you.
This thread was started on February 24th 2005.
My posting will be post #3464
We have waited and waited and waited for any kind of sensible answer about the outrageous claims of a new technology "invented" by non-scientist "Dr." David Schmidt.
We are STILL waiting.
You can play your games if you so desire, in fact it strengthens the case against LifeWave with every crazy statement you make. In that regard, please rant on.
Why you are so interested in having the placebo effect explained to you in detail is beyond me.
We are not discussing the merits of the placebo effect, rather the merits of a product range from LifeWave LLC MLM company.
If you desire to champion the merits of the placebo argument you simply need to start a new thread on this hoax forum. It's easy to do, and even you might be able to accomplish it.
When you have any supporting evidence about the LIfeWave range of "products" I, for one, will be very interested to read what you have to say.
Best wishes,
Dave
EDH UK |
EDHUK
Member
|
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 09:38 PM
ps
Mickey,
Just in case you haven't read the articles about your hero check out Bob Burtis's excellent expose on the miracle that is David Schmidt.
http://www.worldwidescam.info/
Your no answers clock is a little tame compared to Bob's which today stands at 633 days with no answers from "Dr." David Schmidt.
But, of course, you would be familiar with ALL of this had you bothered to read this thread in the first place. It would have also given you an opportunity to use some new phrases that would make you stand out as an individual rather than a LifeWaver clone.
Dave |
Razela
in Chicago, IL
Member
|
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 | 11:07 PM
""Freedom of choice and democracy only work in a system where the public is educated about their choices."
BINGO we have a winner. So why are you hell bent on eliminating one of our choices? Just because its not your choice doesn't make it any less a choice."
Did you not read what I wrote? Lifewave lies about what their patches do, or in this case, not do. Deception causes the consumer to have misrepresented information about the product, therefore they can't make educated choices. What about that do you not understand?
As to the placebo effect, EDHUK gave you a variety of links to studies. If you haven't bothered to read them, that's not really our problem. |
Mickey Mouse
|
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 | 01:38 AM
Just as I suspected......
My crazy little loons tis not I but you who are the clones of David Schmidt. Your proof that the LW patches don't work are clearly in your own delusions....so of course in your little illusion of life that is your fact.
You don't won't or can't explain PLACEBO EFFECT because it would go against everything your little illusion tells you is fact and that is a scary subject....IMAGINE having to face the world, friends & family and have to state - I WAS WRONG.....
Again...please just explain to the public how the placebo works so we can all just get along...
Slainte....
PS...Hope Sanat brings a nice big pair of balls for y'all, cuz you don't seem to have any..... |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
|
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 | 02:21 AM
Hey! How much are you guys getting in bonuses from those people? Where's mine? Seriously, where did all these conspiracy lunatics come from all of a sudden? Must be the same person. Chary, you better start checking IP addresses again.
Mickey,
Who the hell would pay anybody to put messages on a forum against a product? That's totally ludicrous. Couldn't they just post messages themselves and save a lot of money? And who would they be? There's no company that cares what Lifewave does. As usual, you conspiracy theorists concentrate on one point that seems to support your idea and ignore the overwhelming amount of evidence against it.
Aspartame, Mickey? Where have you been? That was an Internet myth, something proved years ago. People being forced to take therapies against their will? Unless you are a minor or incapacitated, you can refuse medical treatment. What planet are you on? Oh that's right, Pluto.
One more thing. As has been stated many times before on this thread (that you haven't read), we are not trying to take away anybody's right to buy anything. All we do here is present the other side of the story, the side of logic and reason. If after hearing the pros and cons someone wishes to buy Lifewave patches, they are free to do so. In the meantime, there are government agencies that don't take too kindly to companies (and their distributors) making false claims about the products they sell. So if Lifewave gets shut down, it's not our fault. |
Cranky Media Guy
|
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 | 02:49 AM
"'There is no particular reason that your statements on this forum CAN'T come back to haunt you in a court of law.'
"Well actually there is one glaring reason...my statements are my opinions and I am as entitled to them as you are to yours. So if that was some feeble atempt to scare me, you will have to do better than that...."
No, I wasn't trying to scare you. I was operating on the assumption that you are a LifeWave distributor. As has been pointed out repeatedly here, when the you-know-what hits the fan, distributors may be held equally as liable as David Schmidt himself. THAT'S what I was driving at. If you are in fact NOT a distributor, then I made an incorrect assumption. In my defense, it seems that just about all of the LifeWave defenders who have "accidentally stumbled upon" this thread have been distributors.
"My crazy little loons tis not I but you who are the clones of David Schmidt. Your proof that the LW patches don't work are clearly in your own delusions....so of course in your little illusion of life that is your fact."
Huh? Dude, this is really simple. The burden of proof is on you (or any other LifeWave supporter) to prove that non-invasive plastic patches can do what is claimed for them. I know this isn't pleasant for you, but WE don't have to prove a damn thing.
To overcome your reluctance to provide actual PROOF of their efficacy, Mr. Randi is offering ONE MILLION DOLLARS to ANYONE who can demonstrate under controlled conditions that LifeWave performs as advertised. YOU put up NOTHING; HE puts up ONE MILLION DOLLARS. Despite this lopsided-in-your-favor offer, still none of you LifeWavers will take the challenge.
I don't get your obsession with the placebo effect. Are you claiming that the placebo effect is how LifeWave "works"? If so, you are contradicting the "inventor" of LifeWave himself. Who are we to believe here, you or "Dr." David Schmidt? |
Joe
Member
|
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 | 10:29 AM
According to other Lifewave posters, you cannot be knowledgeable about a product without trying it. Have you tried chemotherapy and/or radiation? I have and it worked. You can't tell us it doesn't work unless you've tried it. Just using the Lifewave logic, that's all.
Other posters have used the cocaine example to state that we don't need to try it to know its effects. As a result, Lifewave posters move on to other defenses (freedom of choice, new unexplainable technology, you prove it, it just works, etc.). |
Mickey Mouse
|
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 | 10:30 AM
Captain Caveman....
OK where do we begin here.....People who are hell bent on SCIENCE making assumptions :-O ....tut tut tut.....you know that make as ASS of U and ME...lol....
And your Aspartame myth theory can be seen to be a little more than a myth as per FDA records from back in 1995.... especifically when you scroll down to the 4% range.. would you want your kids drinking diet soda or wearing LW patches??? Tough choice..... http://www.presidiotex.com/aspartame/Facts/92_Symptoms/92_symptoms.html
Also Captain Caveman wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2005 | 11:02 AM - "I know you and your hockey team have tried them but you all heard the claims before your tried them. That could have set everyone up for the placebo effect."
So what exactly is the scientific basis of the PLACEBO EFFECT and how does it work?
Very Cranky Dude in a post dated: Fri Apr 15, 2005 | 10:38 PM said "The fact that you don't believe in chi (good for you by the way) doesn't mean that you can't be swayed by the placebo effect."
Exactly explain what you mean by this statement and what exactly the placebo ewffect is and how it works scientifically. In your mind when you make claims as you have done on this occasion, the burden of proof is on YOU...so explain the placebo effect OR admit you don't know what you are talking about....and in the words of one of your probable guru's Bill O'Reilly
(Oops an unscientific assumption on my part) - JUST SHUT UP!!!!
Very Cranky Dude also when talking about other sources of energy ie dowsing, feng shui, homeopathy claimed "None of these things can be proven to work. They all defy logic and the known laws of physics, yet people believe in them because they WANT to."
Again describe the PLACEBO EFFECT - is it not the same as all this hocus pocus you rant about....simply giving someone an energetic thought that they might get well and it works EXACTLY like the drug of choice...surely that is just their BELIEF and when it works in a controlled double blinded study falls under the category of PROOF.....holy shit.....I see Randi scrambling for the checkbook....ha ha ha....
Guys you can't have your cake and eat it....stop defending your case with placebo placebo placebo if you don't know what the hell you are talking about.....
Tunaalabagana!!! |
Mickey Mouse
|
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 | 10:34 AM
Joe
Please do tell how did the chemotherapy or radiation you tried work?
Did your doctor tell you you are 100% cancer free or did you just try it for fun?
If so I would like his name and number, I know a few people who might need to talk to him....
PS...hope he has good insurance.... |
Mickey Mouse
|
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 | 12:02 PM
also Joe on re-reading your post....
"According to other Lifewave posters, you cannot be knowledgeable about a product without trying it. Have you tried chemotherapy and/or radiation? I have and it worked. You can't tell us it doesn't work unless you've tried it. Just using the Lifewave logic, that's all."
This has got to be the most hideous logic yet on this board.....what allows you to ASS-U-ME that what other LW posters have said or think is what I think....also what makes you think I am a LW poster....could I not just be skeptical of skeptics?
Here Joe since you are SO sure that medicine is SAFE & NON-TOXIC maybe you can have your oncologist earn a little extra cashola....this offer of $75K goes out to any MD who will drink a concoction of SAFE products to which they routinely inject into our babies....surely they would be clammering to cash in on this gift....
So please ask your MD....maybe he/she will split it with you.
Then again maybe you just want to wash it down, with all those good healthy medical additives it can only do a body good...Right?
http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/$75,000VaccineOffer.htm
So I challenge you to PUT UP OR SHUT UP...
Proshyai |
hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
Member
|
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 | 06:10 PM
Dang, shoulda previewed... I'm way too tired to send out something without looking at it first. Let's try again...
Mickey said, "AGAIN and this goes for Cranky Dude, homoF4 and Azelia too.....
Now go eat some turkey like good little boys"
Mickey needs some reading glasses. Or a lesson or two in biology... |
EDHUK
Member
|
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 | 09:06 PM
"Mickey needs some reading glasses. Or a lesson or two in biology..."
As we have already gathered from Mickey, getting to the truth of this scam is of ZERO interest.
It's always interesting to see how people just happen to find this site, claim to be non users/distributors of the products, then mount a drawn out word battle on some obscure point.
In place of addressing any of the concerns over the lying "Dr. David Schmidt", Mickey prefers to obsess about placebos.
I'm happy to report I have definite evidence of the workings of a placebo.
However, as the results have not been made available to my peers prior to being published in scientific journals, I shall not be able to share these results just yet.
Patience, Mickey, is a virtue. A virtue David Schmidt has relied on these past few years.
What's good for the goose will have to be good for the gander.
Now, you will have to be satisfied.
Happy New Year,
Dave
EDH UK |
hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
Member
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 | 12:43 AM
Dear Super-Power Forum Overlords,
Thank you. |
Mickey Mouse
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 | 12:51 AM
Part 2
So the big burning question that I apparently keep avoiding is: IS DS and LW a fraud and a scam?
DS and LW have created a new style of something that has been known for 100+ years and brought it to the public in a manner that they can get around the tightly set controls.
Like any good and profitable MLM you need 2 things and 2 things only, a good story and most importantly good results.
LW have both....this is why they are successful. Is DS fraudulently deceiving people?
Technically I think he is not, he gives people what he claims more energy, does he do it in the way he describes in his literarture....Not in my humble opinion.
You don't necessarily need to explain anything to anyone. That is proprietary or National Security or anything else you so wish to call it.
Do Coca Cola give us their secret ingredients, what about the KFC special recipe, little off subject but I trust you get the point. People only need results. They like the taste so they buy....like LW people like the results so they buy. Pretty Goddam simple if you ask me.
You DO need to believe however that "energy" as a power exists before you can begin to understand anything about LW or anything else unexplainable. This is where y'all come unstuck.....you can't even clear the first hurdle....there is no possible chance of explaining anything if "energy" doesn't exist in you world.
No placebo effect can be in your life. UNEXPLAINABLE
No God can be in your life. UNEXPLAINABLE
No prayer can be in your life. UNEXPLAINABLE
Pretty sad existence really......!!
Not that this is "PROOF" but watch this little clip and then try it yourself....can you big strong boys do exactly what this little lady can do.....if not....how did she do that....have your wives try it too.....maybe she is stronger than you??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSfJjdnqfOo
Very simple....but hard to do by brut strength alone...can we at least agree on that?
Anyways....I am a researcher, not an MLM'er and I have spoken to hundreds of people who have been affected by not only LW but many many other forms of "energy medicine" it works in many cases when they have been given NO HOPE by Western modalities.
All placebos? Maybe. Who cares, surely not the healthy individuals who were sent home to die by their MD's, certainly not me and certainly not the growing number of proponents of these simple non-toxic approaches.
Can we scientifically prove them in DB CS? No, but that doesn't mean we should discontinue our work.
I don't know if there is ever any way to prove to you that "energy medicine" works, but if you are ever sick and in pain, think about the non-toxic approach to healing.....First Do No Harm...some dude said that a few years back....maybe we should listen....
LW has in my opinion done one wonderful thing to all who have been touched "positively" by it....it has had them all scratching their heads and asking....How in hell does this work? And that is a huge victory for mankind....when the sheep begin asking questions, we should all be happy.
Sending you all Love & Light,
Mickey Mouse from the land of Pluto. 😉 |
Mickey Mouse
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 | 12:55 AM
where did Part 1 go??...I was so proud of it too....couldn't be arsed writing it again...
not that you really care anyways..... |
Cranky Media Guy
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 | 02:35 AM
OK, Mickey Mouse, I'll try this again. Are YOU claiming that LifeWave works because of the placebo effect or because of "vibrations" (old explanation) or "heat and cold" (new explanation) which Schmidt says is the reason?
You SEEM to be saying that LifeWave's claimed efficacy is due to the placebo effect, in which case you are directly contradicting their "inventor."
If you ARE crediting the placebo effect, then you are calling "Dr." David Schmidt a liar, pure and simple. In that case, YOU are saying he's a fraud.
Unless I (and every other skeptic here, it would seem) have completely misunderstood you, you ARE saying that LifeWave is a placebo. If the authorities were to take your point of view, they would be forced to conclude that Schmidt has defrauded the public by making unsubstantiated claims for his product and would HAVE to prosecute him.
Give all this, I'm at a loss to understand why you seem to take umbrage when WE say he's a fraud. |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 | 09:02 AM
<i>Dear Super-Power Forum Overlords,
Thank you.</i> - <b>hcmomof4 </b>
No thanks necessary, unless it's in the form of $50 and $100 bills. 😉
Mickey Mouse, there's a bug in the software that occasionally (as in 75% of the time I try to post something) causes it to completely lose whatever it is you're trying to post. It's especially pronounced if you're trying to preview before posting. I suspect this is browser dependant because most other people don't seem to have this problem. It's good to get in the habit of copying your post before previewing or posting it, just in case. |
EDHUK
Member
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 | 09:14 AM
"DS and LW have created a new style of something that has been known for 100+ years and brought it to the public in a manner that they can get around the tightly set controls."
Mickey,
The fake "Dr" David Schmidt IS LifeWave.
He has assembled various people over time to give an appearance of legitimacy to his scam, but the origin of the "new science" is to be found in David's head and nowhere else.
Over the past months, many names have disappeared from the company website. Staff members who were formally proudly displayed have moved on. Why?
Endorsers who gladly lent their names to the "new wave" have requested they be removed. Why?
The ex Mrs. Schmidt has given some insight in to the fake world of "scientist" "Dr." David Schmidt.
The only thing that Schmidt is incredibly adept at "getting around" is the natural skepticism that most people have for such outrageous claims.
People who have met Schmidt all talk about the charisma. Have you ever met a real scientist? Charisma is not a word that usually comes to mind.
Look back at the wealth of information concerning hucksters and con men and they all have the charisma factor.
Some of the greatest con men of all time are not around to examine the charisma factor. Neither are their followers. Death will do that.
Your entire argument seems to boil down to this:
So, Scmidt's a con man. Who cares?
You don't have to buy his products.
If people want to buy his products, even if they create the "effects" themselves, let them.
It's a free country isn't it?
Why shouldn't Schmidt make millions of dollars from a scam?
That's the American way, isn't it?
Now, there my friend, you have an interesting point. But, not for this thread.
Dave |
Joel
Member
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 | 09:54 AM
To Mickey and any other Lifewave distributors who believe that even if Lifewave is selling nothing more than the placebo effect, then that |
Joel
Member
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 | 10:01 AM
On the subject of why LifeWave distributors so strenuously resist seeing such simple truth:
|
EDHUK
Member
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 | 10:33 AM
Joel,
" |
Mickey Mouse
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 | 06:24 PM
Joel, you assume I am a LW distributor of which I am not. Just for the record.😊
I was alerted to this product prior to LW even going public. I even attended the first ever LW meeting way back when. I try to stay cutting edge on new technologies that work....nothing more nothing less......I have nothing to sell but results....I could give a rats ass about who says or thinks what, if it works I use it, if only for a placebo then that is fine also.
This technology is not new. And the story DS touts IMHO is not how these patches actually work.....HOWEVER if he told the truth as to how they work, popularity in scientific terms would not be as welcome....because like everything energetic it cannot be explained. So YES I believe there is a fabrication of truth about the nano technology aspect etc etc....but do they do as claimed - YES.
If this makes DS a lying sack of shit then I guess thats what he is. To me it is an intelligent business strategy to tiptoe around a corrupt medical establishment, firmly in the pocket of a Pharmaceutical Industry that spend $BILLIONS in research yet CURE nothing....not one single drug CURES any disease, yet ONLY drugs can legally claim a cure for anything....this is just pure wrong.
As you so boldy posted:
( |
Mickey Mouse
|
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 | 09:08 PM
Dave said, (My interlineated responses)
"Over the past months, many names have disappeared from the company website. Staff members who were formally proudly displayed have moved on. Why?"
Why indeed...are you open to thinking it may have beed GREED, did they do their due diligence before "JUMPING IN" maybe they were just scum bags...maybe they didn't get what they "wanted" so all of a sudden they are PROOF the LW patches don't work.....were they credible then, in your opinion NO....why are they credible now....did they grow a brain since moving to your side of the arguement....come on....you can't use these dipsticks to prove anything......in a court of law they would be laughed (and righly so) out the door.
Endorsers who gladly lent their names to the "new wave" have requested they be removed. Why?
See above....again I am not saying this is the case, but there is certainly a reasonable arguement that these people are scorned....greedy....unethical.....and prone to lying to benefit themselves.....
"The ex Mrs. Schmidt has given some insight in to the fake world of "scientist" "Dr." David Schmidt."
Well now this is a whole different ball game....a woman scorned ....would you believe her...lol.....Poor Mrs Schmidt was probably starved of the old mutton dagger as DS was touring the country touting his wares....this womans testimony is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike....next witness....
People who have met Schmidt all talk about the charisma. Have you ever met a real scientist? Charisma is not a word that usually comes to mind.
I have met with DS on a few occasions....I dined with him once also.....as I have said before MLM's need 2 things a story and results.....he was sticking to his story and believe it or not he is getting results.....
but I quizzed him about Radionics....ABPA....I told him I could duplicate his patches....and was this simply frequencies cloned to nano particles inside a polymer patch.....I got a pretty strange look from a few, HOWEVER to my surprise DS was VERY well versed on this subject and proceeded to talk about several names from this field of research.....off course this is proof of nothing.....Charisma, maybe he developed that along the way, I can't say he was bountiful...but at least pleasant to be around...I hope there are no charasmatic scientists reading this post....really Dave you should not label people from your limited knowledge of scientists.....
Sayanara
PS...Charybdis thanks for the advice....it just saved me another very loud FUCK just now....😊 |
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Note: This thread is located in the Old Forum of the Museum of Hoaxes.
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