For atheists: In order for the material universe to

Yes, J.R., that is a question which many people have pondered. There is, however, a similar question which "people of faith" seem to want to avoid: Where did God come from? Saying that God always existed without a beginning isn't really an improvement on the theoretical problems with the Big Bang theory.

Oh my Goshen! Here we go again, more colour blindness! Don't you know what the Magnetic Spectrum is for? or is it that you've burned out your Pitruitry and Pineal gland's with toooooooooo much shagging eachother brainless, because if you havn't got a synaesthesic subconscious memory, then you havn't got a Pedagogue from your Youth, ie; Guide, on a Magnetic Planet! Maybe you should try Spinning like a Suffi on a Lay Line Conjunction and see if you can wring out the bullshit out of yourself!

"Mary Baker Eddy, who discovered the Science of being"

WTF!!! You mean to tell me that before this person discovered the Science of being that you were all none existent to your natural selves and needed some psychotic schitzo to tell you in half brained German term's that you exist! Wow!, that's like saying that you don't exist without science shoving their penis in you somewhere, and Stockholm syndrome isn't consciousness matey!
Try Spinning on a Lay Line Hot Spot and see if you can draw your Slack-Arse out of your underpants, and you might see that your God and Your Devil's got your face on it, not mine, so blame yourself for not having the intelligence to know when you've been here long enough to know!

Hmm, business is picking up:

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0129371520080701?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

Just goes to show the Church is just a front for a peadophile cult, with a Fama Fraturnitais deal with the Freemasons's in the Public Service's system's in every country, that fuck about with their crime record's to cover up their sinful abuse's of children and other crime's, of which not one of you has even made a comment on the Vatcian's under the table deal with a half brained Nazi incest Freemason Organisaion that keep's the Church in profit, and give's no Absolution other than threat's to witnesses against them by the Police themselvre's, and even murder if the Church is at risk of exposure, of which it's over 600 year's too late to cover up anyway, and all you've proven is that the Church is incapable of having the Tollerence to face the Consequencies of their own action's, and havn't gotten the intelligence to know that 'Pedagogue' dosn't mean, Fuck kid's up their rectum's till they scream!
Here, $, a worm wrapped around a Crooked Spinal Rod to dig for a Bean!

From a purely scientific standpoint, it is easy to demonstrate that matter cannot be eternal in nature. The universe is expanding from what appears to be a beginning point in space/time, which appears to be a one time event. Hydrogen is the basic fuel of the cosmos, powering all stars and other energy sources in space. If the fuel of the universe has been used eternally, that fuel will eventually be depleted; but the evidence is that the cosmological gas gauge, while moving toward

If God is a being that is unlimited in time, and if He has access to every piece of time as if it were now, the question of who created God is an invalid question. The problem is like asking a student to draw a four-sided triangle. The terminology is self-contradictory.
When asked

Not all matter and mankind will make that Passover mate, and you've got to be a Hell of a lot more Consciousness with Time itself before you'll ever work that one out, and isn't every man's Conscience the worst Terror to face, and when was the last time you came Face to Face with your Pride wearing Your face then? Gen 32; "And Jacob (Hell Catcher/Shadow of Degree's), called the name of the place Piniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved", a,e,i,o,u, Piniel/Pineal, is a game of word's, and Thomas is a Curse to you!

J.R. said:

"If God is a being that is unlimited in time, and if He has access to every piece of time as if it were now, the question of who created God is an invalid question."

OK, back up a bit. First, you're starting with the assumption that there IS a God. Then, you're making other assumptions on top of that.

You rejected the notion that matter can spontaneously come into being when you talked about the Big Bang but you accept the concept of an infinite being who has no origin. Isn't that every bit as absurd, if not more so, than the concept of a self-creating deity?

I won't lie to you Cranky Media Guy I've been an atheist before and I know exactly where you are coming from.there are only two possible explanations as to how our existence came to be. we had a beginning or we did not have a beginning. The Bible says,we had a beginning brought about by God. Most atheists say that there was no beginning. The idea is that matter has always existed and all that has happened is that matter has been changed from form to form, but it has always been.The way we decide whether the atheist is correct or not is to see what science has discovered about this question.We live in an expanding universe that gets bigger and bigger and bigger with every passing day.
Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together. The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all the galaxies have been? At a point!At the beginning!Another proof is seen in the second law of thermodynamics. In any closed system,things tend to become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second law of thermodynamics. In space, things also get old. Astronomers refer to the aging process as heat death. If the cosmos is eternal nothing could be added to it to improve its order or repair it. Even a universe that expands and collapses and expands again forever would die because it would lose light and heat each time it expanded and rebounded.
the atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is scientifically wrong. The biblical assertion that there was a beginning is scientifically correct.

If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question--was the creation caused or was it not caused?The atheist tells us that "matter is self-existing and not created." If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.
In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding that your TV set not work! Your television set may not work, but that is not the reason! In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science. No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position.The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong. The atheist's assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also incorrect. The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.we are the product of an intelligent God.Talk to you soon Cranky Media Guy.

This is my final comment for today:You said "You rejected the notion that matter can spontaneously come into being when you talked about the Big Bang but you accept the concept of an infinite being who has no origin. Isn't that every bit as absurd, if not more so, than the concept of a self-creating deity?" The problem with that statement of yours is that you are assuming EVERYTHING HAS A BEGINNING.While humans,space,planets, animals etc...all have beginnings God is not self-creating nor is he created at all.God has always been.Matter was created at some point even an atheist and Christians can agree matter was created at some point.Thus if matter was created at some point yet matter doesn't have the power to create itself and it can't evolve and God has and will always be God is the only logical conclusion to how our existence came to be.

Well, despite all your verbosity, basically it comes down to exactly what I said. You say, logicaly, that matter can't come from nothing. Then you say that God came from nothing.

You believe in God not because it makes sense, but because you WANT to believe.

"This is my final comment for today:You said "You rejected the notion that matter can spontaneously come into being when you talked about the Big Bang but you accept the concept of an infinite being who has no origin."

Here we go again, another Gun Powder Plot and a Scapegoat! Very Old Gaelich Welch Story about a Worm on a Wood, ie; $, or, the Roslynn Princes Winding Apprentice Pillar in German English, and for your Spineless Backside's and a "Get behind me Satan" for GMT in opposition to 25th March, ie; the other side of your brain you let get BSE, because half brain's cannot Tollerate the Truth about themselve's is the Simple Truth, and that a Simpleton's De Medici Psyche Medical Enigma on why men dribble like Pavlov's, lol!

This could be a mistake. After all, it involves a priest molesting a GIRL:

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-13/1215837340188710.xml&coll=1

Reincarnation from nothing does not involve a Priest sexually assulting any girl, you got your Bow in the wrong gender for a Tomboy/Heshe, and havn't any concept of Metempsychosis, and you certainly havn't got a clue about a Great British Hydra called Azzah in Oliver Cromwell's Parliamentry Letter's, because your too pig shit deliberately ignorent to want to know the how to use your Princes Apprentice Pillar to meet your Pope face to face!

Yeah, you whiny victims of sex abuse by Catholic priests, just suck it up and get over it:

http://www.livenews.com.au/Articles/2008/07/16/Stop_dwelling_on_the_old_wounds_Bishop_Fisher_tells_sex_abuse_victims

Get over it! That's a classic Munchausen Schitzophrenic's answer to his guilt for not having the adult restraint to keep their penis's our of the rectum of a kid, because your sooooo full the of envy/Canker of a Worm of their innocent youth when you havn't got any yourself! Pedagogu mean's duel neural Synaesthesis subconscious memory, which is the code's to the magnetic spectrum of this planet your living on, and a Peadophile is spelt without the 'a' in America to make it sound the same as Pedagogue, and that's the result of Nazist half brained Pavlovism, the conditioning of D.A.D's cock up your arses, because litterally, your Church and State Screwed itself! Bow-Boy-Butt-Shaft, is another name for Shakespeare's Inspiration, which you havn't got because your Pineal ands Pitruitry gland's were fucked out of you well before you were 5 year's old, and that's why you've got the attitude of a half brained Dog, which isn't the opposite to God when your in the realm of the dead, shit for brains! The time has come for the Truth about Religion, man hasn't got any!

Okay bear with me and hear me out okay?
1.Matter can not evolve or create itself.
2.Matter had a beginning.
3.If matter had a beginning and yet matter can not create itself how was matter created?
4.Did it remain dormant for years,and then one day decided to start expanding?
5.It could not of done that as matter's only function is to constantly expand.
6.Since matter could not of remained dormant for a time and since matter can't create itself and since matter had a beginning, yet constantly expands AND since matter was the FIRST thing to come ito existence in OUR WORLD, what we can logically conclude is that matter was created by an entity not of our world but one of a different world.What we can conclude is that matter the first thing to come into existence in our world, matter which can not create itself, was created by an intelligent designer, a.k.a. GOD. In conclusionI think it is safe to say it is logically accurate to believe in a God- and believe it or not I came up with that all on my own.the balls in your court now Atheist's- Let's play.

Where did that entity come from? Your assumptions about matter can be applied to that entity just as easily. If matter (and by matter I'm assuming you mean the universe and all it contains, and not just matter itself) has to have been created then so does God.

To assume one has to have a beginning while the other doesn't is an illogical assumption not based on any facts or evidence. It's simply a blind spot people who feel compelled to present this argument suffer from and refuse to acknowledge.

I see what you mean, but matter was the 1st thing to come into existence in our world.Since matter can't create itself then it had to of been created by something other than matter.Since matter was the 1st thing to come into existence in our world and it had to of been created by something else other than itself than matter was created by an intelligent designer.If matter wasn't created by "God" then matter HAD to of created itself.If matter created itself though then all of our scientific laws would be invalid and cars,t.v. sets etc... would not work.But that is not the case which shows us matter was created by something otherworldly.IF, IF, matter, which can not create itself,was NOT created by God and keeping in mind matter can't create itself and it was the 1st thing to come into existence in our world then what the hell created matter?!?!The only other possible explanation would be if matter randomly POPPED into existence and if it did just POP into existence then again, all ofour scientific laws would be invalid.Thus the only logical explanation is that GOD and intelligent designer created matter since matter can't create itself,or pop into existence.Now taking that into account let me answer your next question which is where God came from.Now you assume that God is like matter in the sense it had a beginning.But God is an omniscient omnipresent eternal being.God coulnd't of had a beginning because if he had a beginning the same logic that I applied to matter would be applied to God and that would mean we have multiple God's all created by God's and if we were going back to the beginning then we would again have the problem of:where did the original God come from?So since God is eternal and since there is just one HE (singular) created matter thus God eventually created the universe.Thus God exists.

Uh, J.R., who says that matter was the first thing in the Universe? Couldn't ENERGY have been the first thing?

Besides, we come back to the same old problem: matter can't come from nowhere but an infinite, all-knowing, all-powerful being CAN?

Here are my snwers to your 2 questions Cranky.
1.The dilemma is that even if, as you say Cranky,ENERGY-not matter was the 1st thing to come into existence in our universe it had to of been created by something else other than energy because it simply just can not possible create itself and/or pop into existence unless all of our scientific laws are invalid-which they obviously aren't.
2.You argument against God is "matter can't come from nowhere but an infinite, all-knowing, all-powerful being CAN?" But the critical thing you have to realize is that God does not operate by our laws.By this I simply mean that God does not die,he was not born,he can not sin,nor can he be subject to our same traits such as getting tired, sleeping, eating, etc...So the fact that everything in OUR world has a beginning does not make God invalid.God did not come into existence in our universe, he CREATED our universe, thus he is not subject to our laws such as having a beginning or dying.Yes, in our world eternal lfe is not at all possible but God does not live in OUR world he simply created it.God operates by his laws, and thus God was not born and did not have a beginning as he doesn't need to be since he doesn't exist in our universe.Thus the reason matter energy etc... all had a beginning is not at all like God's existence.He CREATED OUR UNIVERSE since we are not God and haven't always existed.Thus since we were created we had a beginning and will all die.But just because God created our beginning and we haven't lived forever does not mean God can't.God created us and thus we had a beginning,thus are laws are different than his.He is eternal since no one created him and thus that is how God is eternal and how he can be eternal but how our universe/energy/matter etc... can not be.

By the way check out this site for proof of an intelligent designer based on logic and science-I just found it 3 or 4 minutes ago it is great!http://www.knowgodpersonally.org/page.php?page=DidTheUniverseHaveABeginning

Pope apologizes for priests going "down under" in Australia:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/usTopNews/idUKSYD1805020080719

So, neither matter nor energy can come out of nowhere. To "resolve" this dilemma, believers make up a magical being who is completely outside the laws of physics.

The fact that this doesn't really resolve the problem doesn't matter. It's all about BELIEF.

Um, energy is matter. They're one and the same thing.

Why doesn't God operate by our laws? What proof do you have to support this?

If God doesn't operate by our laws then our logics and proofs of His existence cannot work on Him. If God doesn't operate by our laws then you cannot constrain Him by arguing that He must exist. Such logic and argument are, by your own definition, inapplicable and meaningless when trying to prove God. You've successfully managed to argue that you cannot prove God's existence using our logic.

Besides, it's a moot point. There is nothing to indicate that the universe and everything in it requires a beginning. That's just a bias you place on it without any real evidence to support it. If you say

"The universe (or matter, or energy, or whatever) has to have had a beginning!"

I will say

"Why?".

I promise this will be my last posting regarding whether or not God exists, as I see no point in continuing with this futile discussion any longer.It seems that both parties here:athesist's and Christians alike have no desire to change their religious positions so,honestly,why should we even bother quarelling over a topic which is based purely upon ones own self-desire to believe or discredit the existence of God?Charybdis aske why the universe had to of ahd a beginning.The reason the universe had to have a beginning is quite simply because of the second law of thermodynamics.For information reagarding this law you might want to check out that website I posted up one or two responses ago.Talk to you al later.-J.R.

Business is picking up:

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/Church.Sex.Scandal.2.786687.html

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