Here's a couple of vampire-themed websites sent in by visitors. First we have the
Federal Vampire and Zombie Agency. According to the blurb on the site, "From 1868 to 1975, the Federal Vampire & Zombie Agency (FVZA) was responsible for controlling the nation's vampire and zombie populations while overseeing scientific research into the undead. This site is a tribute to the men and women who served in the FVZA, especially the over 4000 Agents who lost their lives fighting to keep our country safe." And next we have
The Temple of the Vampire. If you want to live forever, then all you have to do is join the temple. The catch is that in order to join you have to buy their book,
The Vampire Bible. That's a good sales gimmick. I should try something like that for my book, such as if you want to achieve a state of absolute enlightenment, then you have to buy my book.
Comments
To Private; My accusations are not concerned with you. You have at worst only represented other posts from unreliable sources as proof.
Green Fairy; You have made unsupported claims that the Church of Satan actively promoted the Temple; That hierarchy members have been suckered in; That Magisters other than Ventrue and Nemo are members; That a priest attacked the Temple on Myspace for illegal activity; That you know the names of the Council of Nine (PREPOSTEROUS!); That members not admitted to have been Setians were in the Temple of Set; That Church of Satan members have been blacklisted for activity against the Temple of the Vampire; That >>>90% of CoS members who join now ONLY did so because they see that people they respect among the hierarchy as well as other intelligent good standing members are joining.<<<; And most absurdly: ">>>I do know everyone, interact with them and have been around long enough to witness all of the important things and have inside information from the people who matter.<<<"
When asked to back this up, Green Fairy left for weeks. I say again: Name your names; Support your claims; admit your lies; or leave forever.
I have absolutely no problem answering your questions to the best of my ability.
I did answer your questions last time and so did a million other people. There are numerous links throughout this forum that also answer every single question you have asked.
As for personal conversations I've had with people within the CoS who revealed these things to me - I cannot prove that. You can either believe me or not. I do not care. I never expected anyone to take my word for it. Just sharing information. Take it or leave it. It's up to you.
Here are some answers to your questions that are common knowledge to everyone but you:
>>The Church of Satan has never in any way promoted the Temple.<<
The CoS website does not list the ToV under their links page like any other website they support, but as a SOURCE - which to me, carries more weight:
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Sources.html
Promotion of Nemo's Temple of the Vampire interview on Art Bell
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/News39.html
The CoS Emporium sells ToV merchandise:
http://www.cosemporium.com/home.php
Radio Free Satan has corny ToV commercials every 15 minutes throughout the show.
http://www.radiofreesatan.com/links.html
>>Show me the Warlocks, Reverends and Agents you know who have been suckered in and I'll credit you more. I know of only a few Warlocks, no Reverends and no Agents who are in the Temple.<<
Well, I cannot say that the Magisters running the show were suckered in. Everyone else? Pretty much...
Magister Phineas, Magistra Isabel, Magister Rex, Magister Lang, Magister Ventrue, Magister Harris, Reverend Entity, Reverend Daark, Warlock Caesar, Warlock Draconis Blackthorne, Warlock Corvis Nocturnum, Witch Josephine, Warlock Dark_Adept, Warlock Linguacelestia
This is but a tiny list I can think of off the top of my head. If you are a member of Lifeforce, you will see a lot more names. I gave you the source, now go do your homework.
>>I would also like to know how you knew which Magisters are on the council.<<
I already told you I found out via a private conversation I had with Rex Church.
>>Then prove which of its members were once Setians. I know of none.<<
Article on CoS website written by Nemo where he admits being involved in a pseudo-Satanic cult:
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/PseudoS.html
Website with Alt.satanism archive conversations between Aquino, Ygraine and ex-Rev, Borg:
http://sonic.net/yronwode/arcane-archive.org/religion/satanism/first-church-of-satan/cos-files/ygraine-will-and-aquino-2.php
I can no longer find Alt.satanism. Strange being that it was up a few months ago. That site is loaded with bickering between CoS and ToS dating back to 1994. Somewhere in this forum - you're going to have to do your own homework now - there is an Alt.satanism link providing a conversation between Nemo and Aquino. In that thread, Aquino reminds Nemo of his ToS roots and referring to him as George Smith.
>>I have never heard of a card carrying member of the Church of Satan being blacklisted for anti-vampyric activity.<<
A reverend I know, who shall remain nameless because he's still very active told me that he was not invited to a CoS Cabal Magister Lang and Ventrue organized a few years ago because he was vocal about his dislike for the ToV. He also told me and another Reverend similar stories of other people.
There you go. Aside from personal conversations, I gave you plenty of sources that are good proof. It is up to you now to do your own homework. If none of this information opens up your eyes I do not know what will.
>>Everyone? You don't even know me. Unless you are Magistra Jantsang or Jesus of Borg you are a liar. All 3 are deplorable.<<
Looks like you just told on yourself. You sound every bit as bitchy, whiny, touchy and uneducated as Ygraine herself. And if you are, we do indeed know each other.
I am not Magistra Ygraine. If you know Magistra Ygraine I will eat my hat.
The information you provided regarding the Ruby Tablet of Set speaks volumes. Whether or not Nemo himself wrote it is irrelevant. It's clear that someone plagiarized portions of the RToS and put it into the Predator Bible. Does it really matter who it is? HP Gilmore and The Church of Satan are supporting a cult that plagiarizes the rival organization they despise and discredit - The Temple of Set.
The ties between the CoS and ToS, past and present are obvious. I'm only puzzled as to why Michael Aquino has done nothing about this. I know which message board he frequents, perhaps I shall ask him...
He's always begging for attention and cutting down the CoS on these boards. If he plays ignorant or remains tight-lipped on this then that's cause for suspicion.
I gave you plenty of names and sources. You completely looked over the concrete evidence in the links provided throughout this entire forum and focused on my personal conversations with certain individuals. How weak is that. If you insist on playing dumb be my guest. The only one who loses is you.
Enough evidence has been posted. If the Ruby Tablet of Set/Predator Bible connection does not convince you, then you are either A. severely brainwashed and/or in denial B. you are an official trying your damnest to protect the CoS and ToV while failing miserably.
I wouldn't be surprised if you are Ygraine. Who else would mention Jantsang or Jesus of Borg? Not to mention, she is the only official with nothing better to do (being a bored housewife) who frequents messageboards getting into petty fights. Your delivery is also pretty similar.
You say you met Magister Rex and Magistra Ygraine yet treat both with zero respect; You claim to know things that nobody but Magistra Barton, Magus Gilmore and High Priestess Nadramaia know. Not even members of the Council of Nine know who is in the Council of Nine.
Come out and say who you are and prove your access to the names you won't say. Or stay anonymous and say their names. Otherwise you are nothing.
>>>If the Ruby Tablet of Set/Predator Bible connection does not convince you<<<
Of what? Read my posts. I am no fan of the Temple of the Vampire.
I have never seen a Church of Satan official defend them. The promotions you listed are small and insignificant. They are listed between bats and burlesque. Others are for profit.
I would think less of the Church of Satan if they prohibited members from joining the Temple of the Vampire. They allow Nazis. Someday they will even allow active Setians. They let people make their own mistakes. This is stratification.
I am not Magistra Ygraine. I think Magistra Ygraine would avoid mentioning Jantsang and Jesus. She has much better things to do than this. She is busy keeping us all from getting lynched. Have some damn respect.
I didn't say anything disrespectful about Magister Rex. As for Ygraine, I never cared for her. Just because we met doesn't mean we're pals. The woman has issues.
>>Not even members of the Council of Nine know who is in the Council of Nine.<<
That makes absolutely no sense.
>>Come out and say who you are and prove your access to the names you won't say. Or stay anonymous and say their names. Otherwise you are nothing.<<
I would love to, because personally I have absolutely nothing to lose. But unfortunately I know others that do. Revealing my identity or even dropping names anonymously will get certain people expelled.
I still have friends in the Church of Satan who although agree with me, still wish to maintain their ranks for their own reasons. They are aware I am posting here and only request I remain anonymous until they are ready to leave. I have to grant them that respect.
If this makes me nothing in your eyes then so be it. I do not know you and even if you are who I suspect you to be, I can care less about you. So this is something I can totally live with.
You do not need to know who I am. The sources I have given you as well as everyone else has provided on the forum should be enough. You're grasping at straws.
>>I am no fan of the Temple of the Vampire.<<
You seem to be pretty passionate about the topic.
>>I have never seen a Church of Satan official defend them.<<
Oh no? You must not spend any time on LttD or Lifeforce for that matter.
>>The promotions you listed are small and insignificant.<<
Selling ToV ritual items along with Church of Satan ritual items and merchandise is hardly insignificant. The ToV should keep their shit on their own website. Also, listing the Temple as a SOURCE rather than a link on the CoS website is not insignificant either.
>>I am not Magistra Ygraine. I think Magistra Ygraine would avoid mentioning Jantsang and Jesus. She has much better things to do than this. She is busy keeping us all from getting lynched. Have some damn respect.<<
You sure seem very touchy whenever she is mentioned. She IS stupid enough to mention those people. Out of the entire bunch, she is one of the least intelligent and a drama queen. Ygraine has done absolutely nothing to earn my respect.
The accusations against Magister Diabolus Rex Church and Magister Nemo on this thread are reprehensible. None of you know anything of those involved or their purposes. Your conjecture approaches criminality."
Are you kidding me!
I have considered your posts within this discussion (up to this point) to be a fairly good contribution, keeping the representation of both sides strong.
Please spare us all your desperate attempts at strong-arming. Nobody here has stated anything as fact, this is a discussion of opinion and will remain so.
If you can't take the heat get out of Hell's Kitchen!
You can always go home to LttD and hide under your blanket of censorship.
Finish the book you are reading. It explains that members of the Council of Nine have not been formally introduced to each other since the 1960s. They are asked their opinions separately. Also the name is an occult reference; The Council of Nine doesn't have exactly nine people on it. If you believe Aquino.
I care more about the division and petty bickering regarding the Temple than I do about its association with the Church of Satan.
I am not on Lifeforce but I can access LttD if you have links of hierarchy Temple defense. Advertising is not limited to Satanic books and merchandise nor should it be. People can sell incense and books on homosexuality there. This does not mean the Church of Satan supports gay agendas or smells. The source page lists the Temple between bats and burlesque. Both are quite insignificant to most Satanists. As is the Temple.
I am touchy to see a woman who actively defends us all so disrespected by anyone who enjoys the protection her actions take. Magistra Ygraine is a fine woman who does the most important work the Church of Satan requires.
Rupert; When people make claims they should back them up. When they make insulting and scandalous claims; people who the claims are made against have every right to demand they back themselves up. How is it censorship to demand more information?
It's all in the approach, above you have made a legitimate point and you have retracted the defensive posturing.
It makes for better conversation....here anyways. I wouldn't have bothered to interject a friggin thing if you would have initially engaged Green Fairy in more of a diplomatic tone.
Not that I'm at all worried about GF's ability to defend him/her self, I just can't tolerate the LttD governing body mindset here.
I'll do all I can to stomp that fire out.
Lesser Magic at it's finest...you should know that.
In my opinion what you demand for is out of line, what you ask for is quite in line.
You are either deliberately pretending not to know this information or you are in complete denial. Everyone knows Magister Rex is a ToV Vampire Adept. He says so himself. Check out his Myspace profile.
http://www.myspace.com/diabolusrex
It has been noted several times on here by people who have read the document that Magister Rex contributed rituals to the Ruby Tablet of Set. You're going to have to download that document to see for yourself. I'm not going to do it for you.
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/174/P240/
http://ineedfile.com/the-ruby-tablet-of-set
>> members of the Council of Nine have not been formally introduced to each other since the 1960s. They are asked their opinions separately.<<
Again, I'm only going by what was told to me by hierarchy. You keep trying to shoot the messenger. Take that information however you want to. *Shrugs*
>>I am not on Lifeforce but I can access LttD if you have links of hierarchy Temple defense<<
That's unfortunate because Lifeforce is the best source for this. They are more open about it there. I'm no longer a member of LttD since Ventrue started charging, so I cannot run proper searches. You'll have to look that up yourself. One only need to search under "ToV" to encounter all of the posts from hierarchy that either deter discussion of the group or defend them from criticism.
>>The source page lists the Temple between bats and burlesque. Both are quite insignificant to most Satanists. As is the Temple.<<
That's not true. The Sources page is mostly bedrock Satanic literature by LaVey and CoS hierarchy, music and important projects by members of the CoS. If the ToV was insignificant they would be in the links section. Not listed under SOURCES for The Church of Satan.
>>I am touchy to see a woman who actively defends us all so disrespected by anyone who enjoys the protection her actions take.<<
I do not need Magistra Ygraine's protection. She's not very well liked by many. The woman has issues. Your mention of the former Rev. Borg, Jantsang, hysterical demanding tone and contant cheerleading for her raise suspicions you very well may be her.
Or at least someone close to her. It is obvious you remain completely biased regardless of the evidence presented to you.
Did I make any claims against you? I was talking about Ygraine. This statement you just made is so telling and also helps prove my suspicion regarding who you really are.
I wonder what led you to to believe they would allow active Setians someday?
I thought the CoS considered the Temple of Set to be a rival organization because of its attacks against Anton LaVey and his organization. I am sorry yet I highly doubt the CoS will show mutual admiration for the ToS.
And for non-CoS/ToV members in this forum here is a quote about the Church of Satan and politics:
"The Church of Satan is not a NAZI organization. As has been said many times before, one
I tried to shoot the messenger because he would not reveal who sent the message. I was rude because the accusations you related involved me secondhand and were not true. For the last time I am not Magistra Ygraine.
The page you linked was as I described it. The Temple is exactly as important a source as the bat rescue and burlesque show. The Sources page is not the Theory and Practice page.
Defense of a good woman whose personal issues are none of our concern is not cheerleading. You will also notice that Ygraine has mentioned Borg once in her blogs and Jantsang not at all. The only people who mention them these days are Church of Satan detractors such as Aquino and Schreck.
The Church of Satan allows members of any other non-contradictory organization to join. The Temple of Set has gradually changed and continues to change into a being compatible if not at all similar to the Church of Satan. Soon they will be as acceptable to the Church of Satan on paper as the O.T.O.. When Aquino dies there will be no further reason to deny a member to explore the mystical side of the path.
Some Satanists recognize that a stick alone is weak but many bound together are strong. I'm surprised your source hasn't accused Magus Gilmore of being one of them too. Tell me please; does your source think Magus Gilmore is a former Setian; Vampire or member of the American Fascist Party?
The temple exists still. they will continue to attract members. hell christianity is even more bullshit than the temple and thats been around for over 2,000 years..so my question is what is the purpose of this website and post? to expose the temple? okay so you've done that...now what?
also if you say to detract members from the church of satan and temple remember those words in the satanic bible about man being his own redeemer. this forum is even more anti-satanic than the temple of the vampire could ever be.
There is no support of "mysticism" in Satanism the last time I checked.
Some Satanists recognize that a stick alone is weak but many bound together are strong.
"The use of the adjective
"1. When someone claims to have a direct line of communication with Satan[undead gods], watch out. Selling that kind of mysticism is exactly how Christianity has kept people enslaved in ignorance for centuries. <b>It
What the Church of Satan says and does are two completely different things...as evidenced with the whole ToV nonsense.
And once again, we return to the argument that anyone who is against the ToV, questions it or questions the support of it by the CoS is not Satanic or acting like a heretic... :zip: :roll:
Also, its not fair for the hierarchy to get mad at Satanists who have never been members of the Temple or who didn't get results as ToV members to wonder why the CoS is against belief in conjuring external entities when one comes to the Temple's website stating:
"THE CALLING OF THE UNDEAD GODS
In exquisite and careful detail, you will learn exactly what to do in order to meet the most advanced Vampires in a direct and powerful manner.
We know who has honestly obtained these instructions from us.
If you have been honest with us, we will come to you."
I invite you to picture this, picture being a Satanist who is against belief in external anthropomorphic entities and now imagine what they think when reading the above quote or reading in the vampire bible about conjuring the undead in your chamber. Got the idea? Wouldn't you be a bit confused as a Satanist as to why this organization is supported by atheistic symbolic Satanists?
So now can you understand why some of us here have a beef with their judgement and support of the ToV? It just seems like one big contradiction.
Its not like this type of person is out to attack the CoS; they are just saying in their head, "What this Hell is this and how is this compatible with Satanism from the CoS's perspective?"
And then the Satanist who is was in alignment with the CoS's non-theistic views is left confused. Basically, the whole attitude displayed in this forum is a "What the Hell!" and "its all Bull" type of attitude. Seriously, can you not understand why some CoS members here, on LTTD and elsewhere are concerned?
http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=361312#Post361312
Is the poster LoneNights a "bad guy" or not a Satanist for questioning what he perceives as a contradiction to Satanism? I don't think so yet he or she was quickly silenced with verbal judo which is VERY suspicious. :zip:
"Often the Church of Satan is accused of being a great big organization where members must never question the hierarchy. This is not true."--A Critique taken from Magistra Ytraine's Various Satanic Rants
http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/
Anyway, we have already questioned and said what we chose to say so its a bit late to try and tell us to shut up. :zip: :lol:
Sorry, this isn't LTTD...
LttD is not the Church of Satan. LttD is a hangout for many Satanists which is run by a Satanist and Vampire. It reflects both. That is Magister Frost's right.
I have never been dissatisfied or ignored in asking questions of the hierarchy. I have questioned posts; essays; books and policies of Dr. LaVey, Magus Gilmore and many Magisters. I have also questioned them personally about the Temple of the Vampire. I have always been answered fully in that matter leading to my present views of the situation.
But I have honored their demands not to be questioned about it on LttD. Respect Magister Frost's rules in his domain. But ask freely; and to the poster who claimed to be waiting for a reply from Magus Gilmore himself; He has better things to do. Why not ask an agent?
Also I was speaking about those who did talk shit about the CoS. This wasn't everyone but certainly there is no shortage around here.
So coming here and creating a massive stink based upon lack of understanding is resolving this issue? Has posting here succeeded in solving anyones curiosity? I mean seriously. What would concern me most is living adults would all gravitate here and just post random complaints. I am just wondering if this forum has succeeded in anything? I mean what is the major goal here? Can that even be answered?
>>>There is no support of "mysticism" in Satanism the last time I checked.<<<
Mysticism is broadly defined. Satanism is not compatible with belief with some of the Temple of Set's doctrines. It may be compatible with others. Satanists are not restricted from looking into other such half relevant religions. I expect the Church Of Satan to allow members to look into the Temple of Set's esoteric goings on; much like Masonry or O.T.O. As soon as the last vestige of their claim to be LaVey's true successor dies; if it survives Aquino at all.
>>>"The use of the adjective
1. Are you an ex-member of the ToV?
2. Are you thinking about joining the ToV or supporting their religion? If so, then why?
3. Are you a "legally registered" member of the Church of Satan?
If so, then you should have no problem identifying who you really on here (and not remaining anonymous) since you are speaking for the CoS and its Administration.
Otherwise, you are a fraud and misrepresenting the CoS on here in regards to the CoS Administration's so-called position on the Setian issue.
5. Do you think summoning external undead god entities is compatible with Satanism as codified by Anton LaVey? Before answering the question, please review the "preface" to The Satanic Bible.
5. Last, do you think the ToV is a mind control cult, hoax or a scam?
If you are not a member of the CoS then stop being a poseur and speaking for them. I have more respect for Old Age than a fraud and poseur with supposed inside scoops any day of the week. If this is the case then who cares who YOU are because you can't even be honest with your affiliations or identity on here. :lol:
Furthermore, if you are a BIG FAKE then you are a self-righteous hypocrite for interrogating Green Fairy like your a CoS representative with your condescending parental attitude.
And if you do not reveal your identity here then we all have our answer. This is because a public representative of the CoS should have no problems with revealing their identity to the "public".
1- No.
2- No.
3- I have a red card.
5- Only in the ritual chamber.
5- Yes.
You would probably not care who I am or recognize my name or even my LttD name. Green Fairy has insinuated she knows people and has inside scoops. Green Fairy is the only person here who merits the scrutiny you put me to.
And we would all be happy to know who you are, Private.
I also appreciate you trying to help me understand where you are coming from.
I have nothing else to say in regards to myself other than my opinions and theories expressed here are my own.
And I hope the links I have provided speak for themselves in this forum in regards to the various topics spoken about here.
And I think what most here, especially concerned CoS members and ex-ToV members are looking for is simply some closure. And trying to pretend it never happened and forgetting about it all is just not good enough. Some may lie and say they just moved on yet it has affected their lives and many feel resentful and want a sense of justice in their lives.
Also, when you feel you have been lied to, manipulated, or taken advantage of it is only natural to be resentful and desire justice when one feels a perceived wrong.
I am not here to save anyone yet I would like to see the ToV end if it is nothing more than a mind control cult. I don't like being played and I hope what comes around goes around for the founders of the Temple. I hope they end up as unhappy and frustrated as they have left many ex-members left feeling.
And before the reader judges some here for voicing there concerns I ask the reader to put themselves in our shoes. I think most here are not here out of mean intent just to attack the ToV or CoS. It is simple--many here feel taken advantage of and wronged if one is willing to objectify the evolution and direction this forum has taken.
And why are there so many people saying the same negative things about the Temple if the ToV isn't a big money making lie. Are these people all just big mean liars out to attack the poor widdle innocent ToV who is just MISUNDERSTOOD?
I haven't revealed my identity so I don't care about getting attention or trying to save anybody.
As for me, I just want some closure and feel like there is some justice if we are just a bunch of fleeced rubes.
I am not a great writter and maybe I am wrong about some things yet I know when something doesn't smell right. And I think the ToV stinks...
Actually the Church of Satan does NOT require any member INCLUDING members of the Priesthood, which are defacto-spokes persons, to out themselves to the public.
This is not mere opinion but if FACT.
My concern is for myself, then other Satanists I know, then the Church of Satan. I have met no Satanists excepting yourself who have had a problem because of the Temple. I have know of several who have had problems relating to the allegations against them from this thread. I have never seen evidence that the Church of Satan itself suffers from Temple association; But I do see the undertow of unmoderated irresponsible debate doing damage. This debate erodes the mutual respect between those concerned and I post here to defend myself and my friends from Green Fairy's as-of-yet unbacked accusations.
Like you say, the Temple of the Vampire does stink. So I stay far from it. But I don't spread rumors about which witch stinks worst. Like most rumors, I think Green Fairy himself is making it up for drama, ruining the names of good men and women for his own amusement.
>>>And why are there so many people saying the same negative things about the Temple if the ToV isn't a big money making lie.<<<
Yes, nobody ever says anything bad about the Church of Satan. Had to call you on that one. 😊
I merit the scrutiny....I merit all scrutiny that Green Fairy and Private puts to anybody on here.
Both of these individuals have stood strong in our battle against the plastic-fangers and have both stood-fast with facts and statements backing up our cause.
There is a cabal here....definately invisible to you but quite visible to me.
We have been here since the pages were in their teens and the comments were pre-hundred.
We have been told by many to give up the hunt and that what we were doing was a waste.
Private has been through this whole cycle of interaction numerous times..it's insane but I love it!
The bottom line is that the notion of the Undead Gods is contradictory to Satanism. The ToV as designed is not compatible with Satanism.
Now lets continue on with the task at hand...Name dropping! This is the most benefitial thing that can come from all of this.
Hail Satan!
Hail EiS!
Hail p.133
Hail Outstanding Difference #5
http://www.sacred-texts.com/goth/vc/vc00.htm
"It has also come to the attention of several noteworthy occult organizations, including the Temple of Set, the IOT and the Church of Satan. (Peter Gilmore, current head of the Church of Satan, expressed his disappointment at Michelle's absence at the New York City release of "V" as he wanted her autograph on the special edition of the Codex released with that work)."
Frankly, if Gilmore likes Belanger's crap (and she is such a pathetic goth vampire wannabe, profiled on some History Channel vampire documentary trying to "feed" on some partner), I wouldn't be surprised if he's actively involved in some way with the ToV.
I'll find the footage of Belanger "feeding" on YouTube and post it, just so y'all can see who Gilmore's a fan of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5yyFS1koDg&feature=related
There's more of the interview here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5yyFS1koDg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT57pyNySOI&feature=related
I don't know what your beef is with me, but it's starting to border on obsession. I answered your questions and listed sources. You provided lame excuses for your refusal to look at them and continue to whine and accuse me of not backing up my claims.
Interacting with you proving to be a waste of my time.
I have given you all of the sources that were most important and that would answer all of your questions regarding the CoS/ToV/ToS connection.
Unless I had a tape recorder on hand, I cannot prove private conversations I've had with certain people. I just put that information out there and it's up to each individual who reads it to decide how he/she wants to take it. Again, you can either throw it away as bullshit or take it into consideration. That is all.
I didn't have to know the identity of the posters here to benefit and learn from their information. Their anonymity do not make their claims less valid to me. All I had to do was compare their info with my experiences as well as others I know who went through the same to put the pieces of the puzzle together. And it all fits perfectly.
You see no evidence of the Church of Satan being damaged by the ToV, you say?
Take a look at the 54 pages and hundreds of posts from CoS members and non members alike who are not happy with The Church of Satan. That's a lot of people. Ever since LaVey died, the CoS has been taken as a joke and it's largly due to it's association with the Temple.
The Church of Satan is no joke. Not to its loyal members. No more than it was when it began.
I told you what my "beef" was with you. Our conversation ended when you refused to tell us how you know the things you claim to know. My other objections are logged here for all to see and judge. I'll relieve you of my "obsession" and be on my way after one last thought:
Anonymity is a remarkable thing; It makes cowards fearless because it lets liars escape without blame. But it is never permanent
Face it LaVey started that we don't believe in a literal Satan,but you are going to have to face this single Fact pre- anton LaVey Satanist(i.E.the real deal) believed ina literal Satan!!!!!!
I understand that some feel this way; however, the confusion and contradiction you perceive will dissolve once you understand that Satanists (what you may call LaVey Satanists) have chose to define what the devil is to themselves by their "own definition". I realize this frustrates many; yet, as our own gods and redeemers, we choose the labels and definitions that we feel work best for us. This is how we feel so accept this or go do your own thing.
As said a thousand times to those who refuse to listen or believe lies, Satanists are not inverse Christians, Devil Worshipers or Spiritual Satanists because those are their labels and beliefs. I suggest that the reader read the Satanic Bible if one wants to understand how we define Satan and Satanism.
Second, rather than trying to "explain Satan into existence" with fancy mystical words or subjective testimony, can you "objectivly" prove Satan is a real? So PROVE IT and don't expect me to believe you.
Face it LaVey started that we don't believe in a literal Satan,but you are going to have to face this single Fact pre- anton LaVey Satanist(i.E.the real deal) believed ina literal Satan!!!!!!
Sorry, I will not face anything that I have no solid evidence for or take what you are saying on faith. However, I do find agreement with what I find the Church of Satan accepts as Satanism.
As for me, no so-called undead Gods or the Devil has ever physically popped into my room wearing a name badge with the name Satan on it.
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9793/satanteleport.th.jpg
I don't mean to sound like a jerk yet its just that I have never met him and require proof and I am not going to join a cult and pay money to get it. If this so-called Devil was real then I would need no mediator, priest, or High Priest of Satan because he would prove it His Self to me.
Furthermore, even if something did reveal its self in a "physical form" I would still question that experience and not take it at face value like so many do after sharing their so-called experiences.
And, hypothetically, if he was real then I am sure he would be a perfect gentleman and not the bloodthirsty baby killing terrorist asshole Yahweh is. Lol!
http://www.evilbible.com
Anyway, this is not the appropriate forum to discuss or debate the topic you brought up here.
I do suggest that the curious reader read the Satanic Bible and visit the Church of Satan website where all of your questions will be answered. I also suggest that Christians who are going to have an opinion about Satanism do the same BEFORE having an opinion about Satanism.
So, what are your feelings about the Temple of the Vampire? Do you believe it is a hoax?
Face it LaVey started that we don't believe in a literal Satan,but you are going to have to face this single Fact pre- anton LaVey Satanist(i.E.the real deal) believed ina literal Satan!!!!!
Let me jump into your paradigm for a second and pretend that you were right and, at one time, agree with you that he did believe in a Devil.
So have any of the proponents of this "he believed in a Devil" argument wonder why he stopped representing this belief or stopped believing in Devil himself? I think if you read the Preface to the Satanic Bible and parts in the Satanic Bible saying "satan is a symbol" you will find your answer.
Have any of you who believe this ever considered that he eventually came to the same conclusion that I have about a so-called real Devil and that is why the Church of Satan is what it is today?
In my opinion, I am sure he was curious and "wondered" in his youth many times if the Devil was real yet the Satanist in him overcame the self-delusion or trap of blind belief like all real Satanists.
I trust he had many experiences yet it is amazing he was able to not fall into the trap of blind-belief and mysticism "on his own" like so many do after their subjective mystical orgasms of experience.
Do you know what I think saved him? DOUBT! I ask the reader here to look for that word in the Satanic Bible.
If you are right, I think he may have used the power of his own knowledge from the occult, science, psychology and philosophy to fully understand what was REALLY going on instead of listening to all of the prattling faith-based non-sense/assertions from mystics and believers. In other words, in the true Promethean spirit of Satan--he thought for his Self instead of believing in their beliefs about the gods, devils, heavens or hells.
And I don't blame him or the CoS for not sharing this with everyone, hypothetically, IF it was true, because it is not relevant to his definition of Satanism or to his final conclusion about the Prince of Darkness. And, of course, the stupid would use this "he used to believe in a Devil" as a license for blind belief in his organization because the sheep would do it just because he did it.
If this was so then this is a perfect example of the strength of a true Satanist's mind when it comes to dealing with the popular beliefs this world pushes onto the herd of the so-called "normal" man.
In LaVey's own words, The Nine Satanic Statements from The Satanic Bible,
The Church of Satan was the first above-ground ("official") satanic organization. They get to define "Satanism," not you.
So, unless you have something meaningful to add to the discussion, just STFU and GTFO.
(NOTE: Before anyone brings it up, the Ophite Cultus Satanas, or "Our Lady of Endor Coven," founded by Sloane in 1948 was Gnostic, not satanic.)
Here is some more discussion in another forum about the ToV:
http://www.vampires.nu/pages/Forums.cfm/action/viewmessages/Forum/5/Topic/15886/PageID/10
"We discovered a subtle secret about death and human consciousness long ago, allowing us to develop a particular kind of technology that has long been called magic. As a result, the legends of vampires, gods, faeries, angels and many other supernatural entities have their roots in our Family's past.
However, just as primitive cultures view modern technology as magical, human beings refer to our practices as supernatural out of ignorance. What we do is far from supernatural. We simply understand truths that remain hidden to the rest of humanity."
Taken from.....well I won't say where..
"From time to time we have lifetime members who decide that they are in contact with the "real" Undead Gods and attempt to splinter off with a new interpretation of the Teachings.
These people are simply deluded.
We always follow our motto to "Test Everything. Believe Nothing."
Those who do not follow the explicit Teachings and requirements set out and approved by the authentic Leadership of the Temple lack validation.
A patient in a locked psych ward may believe he is Jesus Christ. Those who hold the keys to the ward do not agree.
We hold the keys."
What is being said here is that these "teachings" are not valid unless they are sanctioned by the "aunthentic leadership".
So even though you can read the instructions they are not valid unless you have the idea of the Undead Gods imprinted on your dome!
Oooooh...Scary!
I say that your claim is false and that your theats are idol.
I believe that your teachings are garbage and even if there was anything of any substance there, I could apply them and use them as I wish, without fear of reprisal....
Take that to the bank....
Hail Satan!