The Museum of Hoaxes
LifeWave Energy Patches
Posted By:
Fawkes
Feb 24, 2005
 Now you can get more energy from a patch! I especially like the way that
they "believe" that it works. It is also based on years of research from
many fields. While the research may be valid, I'm not sure that their
results were intended to be used with a "patent pending blend of water,
oxygen, amino acids and organics applied to a polyester fabric and sealed
within a polymer shell".

http://www.contactplus.com/lifewave.htm

We can finally have our super-soldiers now!
Category: Health; Replies: 5918

Comments
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Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 | 03:20 AM
Captain Al said:

"Fascinating stuff WWSN1. I hadn't heard that LifeWave had backed out of the JREF Paranormal Challenge. I suspected that might happen if they were running a diliberate scam. They no doubt have some excuse like, "we don't have time, we are too busy developing our revolutionary product"."

Is it even believable that they "don't have time" to take a test, which they presumably believe they can pass easily, which will NOT prevent them from selling their product(s) (assuming they pass, that is) which will net them a MILLION DOLLARS?

I mean, it isn't as if they'd have to shut down their manufacturing or sales facility; all they'd have to do is provide a few samples and someone from their operation to oversee the testing.

"Well as your site shows, some of the distributors are claiming cures for things like cancer. That's getting into really serious stuff. If someone were to rely on LifeWave instead of proven therapy, it could do a lot of harm."

Yup, exactly.

"And if real medical science can't do something for your cancer, then these people are just taking advantage of those who are desparate. I consider them the lowest form of life in existence."

I completely agree that "lowest form of life in existance" applies to the people who make these things. I think it's possible, though, that at least some of the SELLERS are just as taken in by the hype and bullshit as the BUYERS are. They see what they WANT to see, in my opinion. Their intention may be to make money by doing good for their fellow man and they simply don't *want* to--and therefore don't--see that the patches are utter nonsense.
Dr. Stephen R. Norris
Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 | 05:41 PM
Dear All

Thank you for the comments concerning these 'patches'. I work within the Human Performance Laboratory (Faculty of Kinesiology, University of Calgary) and have been approached by people associated with this product no doubt so as to be a conduit to the Canadian National Team athletes of the various Winter Olympic Sports based out of this institution (and the main training centre on campus, the Canadian Sport Centre Calgary).

I, of course, asked to see independent peer reviewed studies for verification of the claims made. To date, NONE have been forthcoming. To date, our rquest for product to be suppled so that we may carry out randomised, double-blind, cross-over investigations have been thwarted!

Still retaining an open mind, I am heavily skeptical......if only becuase of a seeming unwillingness for transparency and independent analysis; but hey, I'm sure there are alot of folks laughing all the way to the bank!

Thanks for listening...and I'll keep you updated if anything changes.

Steve
Boo
in The Land of the Haggii...
 Member
Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 | 05:52 PM
On behalf of all those who are dubious as to the veracity of these patches, I thank you, Steve.
Please do keep us updated as to responses from these people.
Steve Norris (HPL, UofC)
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 | 09:31 AM
Hi there Bob

Just replied to you directly, but wanted to keep the 'forum' in the loop.

I would not post anything, anywhere, without it being 'true'. I am hopeful that some recent discussions may lead to investigative work being undertaken at UBC (University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC) and here at the UofC......but this is not confirmed as of yet.

Steve
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 | 10:37 AM
Dr. Norris,
I would be interested in knowing what professional researchers, such as yourself, have to say about LifeWave's explanation of how their product works. I'm referring specifically to the "frequency modulation of the body's magnetic field".
crankymediaguy
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 | 12:57 AM
Has anyone in this discussion noted yet that the LifeWave patches are sold via multi-level marketing? Does THAT set off any bells for anyone?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 | 02:15 AM
Some of you will be interested to know that James Randi now knows of this site and thread. I had my first-ever phone call with him Monday afternoon (long story).

In the course of the conversation, he told me that he will have some new information about LifeWave patches and NASA on his site (randi.org) this Friday. I got a peek at it and it's good stuff!

Yes, I'm shamelessly dropping Randi's name; he's been one of my heroes for a long time and I was really happy to talk to him for the first time. My daughter said I was acting like a "fanboy." Guilty as charged.
Razela
in Chicago, IL
 Member
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 | 11:07 AM
Awww! CMG is all smitten. No worries though, I'm pretty sure I understand the way you feel. I can't wait to read Randi's new commentary.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 | 07:28 PM
Razela said:

"Awww! CMG is all smitten. No worries though, I'm pretty sure I understand the way you feel. I can't wait to read Randi's new commentary."

OK, so I'm a groupie. It isn't every day that you get to talk to an officially certified genius (Randi got a McArthur "Genius" Award some years back).
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 08:21 AM
Y...o...u a...c...t...u...a...l...l...y y...a...l...k...e...d t...o Randi? :gulp: You are my hero! Can I touch you?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 02:44 PM
Captain Al said:

"Y...o...u a...c...t...u...a...l...l...y y...a...l...k...e...d t...o Randi? gulp You are my hero! Can I touch you?"

Scary, isn't it?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 | 03:26 AM
Lookie what I found:

http://ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/homeopathyholmes.htm

Oliver Wendell Holmes on homeopathy!
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 | 08:47 AM
Not much happening with this thread since LifeWave weaseled out of the JREF Paranormal Challenge.
I hope you all checked out the stuff on <a href="http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax?URL=http://worldwidescam.com">www.worldwidescam.com</a>.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 | 02:21 AM
Captain Al said:

"Not much happening with this thread since LifeWave weaseled out of the JREF Paranormal Challenge."

Yeah, they've gotten VERY quiet since NASA and Morehouse College told them to cut the shit with the "endorsements," huh?

By the way, when I spoke to Randi last week, I asked him if he would like a pair of LifeWave patches. He said, "Absolutely," so I sent him one of the three pair I got from the guy who offered them to me on this thread. I'm looking forward to seeing what Mr. R. will have to say about them.
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 | 08:05 AM
[not sarcasm] Gosh, I just feel so special basking in your greatness. [/not sarcasm] 😊

I'd really love to see one of Randi's lectures but I'm to budget stupid to save up the money to hit a conference.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 | 10:31 AM
CMG,
If I get time today I will do another search of LifeWave dealer sites to see if they have removed the references to Morehouse College and Troy Uninversity.

Can any of the LifeWave dealers who posted here tell us if recent events have hurt their sales?
David B.
Member
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 | 11:59 AM
Captain Al,

http://www.jaredstory.com/energy_morehouse-study.html
http://www.contactplus.com/lifewave/studies.htm
http://www.longlifecatalogs.com/Products.asp?Product=1427&Category=33
http://www.energypathzone.com/morehouse-study.htm
http://www.bow-mac.com/042LifeWave.html
http://www.waterchi.com/lifewave.html
http://www.energyrich.com/html/an_open_letter.html

Nope!
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 | 04:43 PM
Thanks for saving me the trouble David. Now, how about those sales figures?
Lifer
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 | 05:10 PM
Captian Al, I can assure you that the companies sales are very strong and mine continue to go up every week.

On the front page of the LifeWave corporate website there is an interview with the head coach from Morehouse about the patches.

If you want to see one reason why LifeWave's business continues to grow watch this video of LifeWave's Sport Director, Coach Richard Quick from Stanford University. He brings instant credibility to anything he does:

http://www.videoinsiders.com
crankymediaguy
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 | 06:13 PM
Charybdis said:

"[not sarcasm] Gosh, I just feel so special basking in your greatness. [/not sarcasm]"

You may rise now, Supplicant. 😊
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 | 08:29 PM
So Lifer, are you making $100,000 a month yet? I don't doubt sales are strong. There are a lot of gullible people out there.
I watched the Richard Quick video for about 20 minutes. That's all I could stomach. I'm not sure how you can claim he brings instant credibility to anything. I would like to say the guy is just a glorified used car salesman but that would be an insult to all the used car salesmen in the world. I'm surprised he wasn't slipping and sliding on all the slime falling off himself.
In that 20 minutes, LifeWave was not mentioned once. No explanation of how the product works. No explanation about magnetic fields in the body that medical science did not know existed. (Maybe that comes in the next hour of the video, I don't know.) The whole purpose was a bunch of hero stories to convince a bunch of prospective dealers they can make $100,000 a month selling LifeWave products (greed, like love, is blind). The sad part is some just might.
However, even the supply of gullible people is finite so only a few are going to get rich. But that's how multi-level marketing works. It's great for those on top (like Richard Quick). Then when the target market realizes the product is a sham or there are more sellers than buyers, the whole thing collapses. By then Mr. Quick and the rest of the LifeWave gang will be on to the next scam. I hope you don't stock up on too much product at once.
crankymediaguy
Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 | 12:12 AM
Perfectly said, Captain Al. Even if I didn't have enough basic science knowledge to know that the LifeWave patches were nonsense (it doesn't take very much), bells would have gone off in my head as soon as I saw that they were a "multi-level marketing" thing. I've yet to see anything sold via MLM that didn't have "scam" written all over it.

You nailed it when you said that greed, like love, is blind. Man, ain't that the truth!
fasoho
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 | 12:53 PM
Like many of you I too am somewhat hesitant to dive in head first. I'm a personal trainer with 15 years experience. I was given patches to try. I must admit, that there's definitely something going on. I was put through a test to find out what my maximum lift would be with and without the patches. My results were actually poor. No significant difference after using the patches. In fact my results were better without. The next day, i was given another set to try. I followed the advice of being properly hydrated and made sure the patches were properly secured. That day I had an exellent 60 minute workout too which I felt like I could easily train for another hour. Right after, I played three games of squash and beat someone I've never been able to beat relatively easily. I barely broke a sweat. I'm very open minded and believe that we should definitely be cautious when using our own bodies as guinea pigs. Remember the old saying, "Caveat Emptor!" I found this info while looking for a review from a nuetral source. Hope it's helpful.

http://www.tuned-in.com/Lifewave/Horses.doc<a href="http://www.tuned-in.com/Lifewave/Horses.doc">Lifewave Study</a>
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 | 03:47 PM
fasoho,
Yes there is definitely something going on. It's called the placebo effect (mentioned often in this thread).
On your good day you made sure the patches were properly secured AND that you were properly hydrated. Perhaps being properly hydrated was the reason for your apparent increase in performance. Maybe your opponent was having a bad day like you had the day before. Unless you can eliminate all other factors except the LifeWave patches, how can you say they had any effect? The basis of a proper scientific study is to cancel out all other posibilities so we know for certain if the product being tested has any value. One anecdotal uncontrolled event on one day does nothing to determine if LifeWave patches do what they claim.
The link you provided as a "neutral source" talked about someone who does chiropractic and acupuncture on horses; not exactly mainstream science. It is well documented that chiropractic and acupuncture is pseudo-science so I have to assume it is pseudo-science when applied to horses as well.
Maybe I don't know much about horses but how can that "doctor" tell when the horse stops feeling pain?

You said:
"I'm very open minded and believe that we should definitely be cautious when using our own bodies as guinea pigs."

The only danger here is to your wallet.
Roy
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 | 05:46 AM
O.K. - time for a comment here.

I googled on these patches to find out what the hype was about - they haven't "hit" South Africa yet, so I knew nothing about them. One of the links that came up was to this forum, and I read the posts with some initial amusment. I am pretty certain that these things are a load of crap, and that outside of the placebo effect, there is nothing going on except the frantic efforts of a bunch of conmen trying to keep their MLM scam legal by purporting to purvey a real product. That professional people are endorsing the rubbish does not surprise me at all, corrupt human beings abound, and professionalism is no guarantee of integrity these days.

BUT - there are a couple of things that I would like to point out to some of the more, shall we say, self-satisfied posters on this forum: Most important (I feel) is that to debunk the nonsensical (and sometimes apparently genuine) claims that one encounters on the web and elsewhere is a service to the greater good. I have generally found that my own B.S. meter functions best when it is supported by those of others.... However, it is vital to maintain some humility while doing the debunking thing. It is true that the burden of proof lies upon the claimant - but then the burden of disproof lies with equal weight upon the shoulders of the debunker. It is not enough to shriek "bullshit" and spit in the general direction of whatever it is that one does not believe - and would have others disbelieve.

Why? Because one becomes (whether one would like to admit it or not) a sort of intellectual cowboy, a self-appointed arbiter of reason/truth. And what does that lead to? The derogation of the process itself. And ulitimately, mental tyranny.

Even if a person is on trial for the most dastardly crimes that could ever be imagined, they are entitled to a fair trial, and are presumed innocent until proven guilty (in civilised places, that is). Even if, as in this case, the "thing" on trial is a concept and not a person, taking it outside and shooting it summararily is just not on.

The "experts" NEED to PROVE that these patches are the rubbish that I am so sure they are, so that yet another cynical Pyramid Scheme (the MLM con-brigade hate that word)can be stopped.

Two more things here:

1 - Tupperware was on of the first REAL products to be marketed by the MLM principle. And it is a piece of marketing history today!

2 - Captain Al: I hope that in the process of winding your very long neck in, you develop a "crick" in it that takes you ALL the way to a chiropracter.

There are many things that science cannot explain - and most of those that it does explain are only explained in terms of "models" that are, in themselves, allegorical. And quite possibly wrong
Tank
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 | 06:37 AM
If they want my money the burden of proof is well and trully theirs!!...whoever thay may be.
I was called by LifeWave.....I am a Dr of Biochemistry and a martial artist. I have a rudimentary understanding of Chi-Gung and find acupuncture to be useful in certain situations...thus pressure points and energy flows are something i give some credence to.

I found the answers the guy on the phone gave me to be nonsensical. He told me that he was selling nothing and that the product sold itself..but that I could make some money if I was up for it!!

I thought I would take a lookie on the net to see if anyone else had spotted a poorly disguised pyramid scheme and whaddya know!

Te-He... they can keep trying but until I see some proof my money stays mine...I would be happy to reconsider with a few peer reviewed papers!
Tank
Roy
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 | 08:25 AM
Hey Tank

When it comes to my bucks it would be the same story
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 | 10:01 AM
Okay. Lets state it one more time for the benefit of Roy who is new to this critical thinking game:

WE HAVE NOTHING TO PROVE!

The entire burden of proof lies with LifeWave. Like WWSN1 said, criminal proof and the presumption of innocence is an entirely different matter than scientific proof. There is no comparison. If an idea is wrongfully convicted once in a while, so be it. If it is innocent, it will eventually be proven as such. There is no statute of limitations on scientific theories. This is essential to maintain the sanctity of the scientific method. Otherwise we will have intellectual anarchy with people getting government grants and tax breaks to study astrology, tarrot card reading, fairies and communicating with the dead. There's too much of that now.

And I will state, once again, not all claims deserve equal consideration. On this thread we are not mocking the lastest discoveries in quantum physics by a Nobel laureate. This is LifeWave Energy Patches. Their claims are so far removed from known science that we here feel free to ridicule them. It's not our fault if a lot of people are ignorant of elementry school science and feel offended. If LifeWave had at least invented some explanation that worked with known physiological processes, then they would have gotten a little respect.

Roy said:
"There are many things that science cannot explain - and most of those that it does explain are only explained in terms of "models" that are, in themselves, allegorical. And quite possibly wrong"

Yes, there are many things science does not understand. However, we do understand a lot. Look at the computer in front of you Roy. Do you have any idea how much knowledge of physics, chemistry and mathematics it requires to design, build and mass produce it at the price you paid for it? If you did then you would know science has more than enough knowledge to judge LifeWave.

One last thing. If I ever have neck problems I won't be going to a chiropractor. I won't need an empty bank account to add to my problems.
David B.
Member
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 | 10:30 AM
Roy, if you find that PDF please post it as a new topic and not in this one.
David B.
Member
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 | 10:41 AM
Oh, and I can break a sheet of glass without touching it too! It's a highly secret martial arts technique I call 'brick fu'!
Tank
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 | 01:07 PM
Hi Roy,
I would happily carry on the Chu discussion in private e-mails as I don't think this is the right topic area ....and rather than start a new thread ....I find forums often too aggressive (they can make me tetchy too).
I would be very interested in seeing the paper also. My e-mail is available from my web site http://www.tanczos.co.uk.

Tank
Tank
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 | 01:08 PM
oops :red: I meant Chi discussions!!
Tony
Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 | 08:50 AM
The first clue that this is not a legitimate scientific product is the fact that the people selling and promoting it can not speak english correctly (and they do not appear to be from another country).

If you are genius enough to design a product that miraculously fuses traditional asian and modern medicine you can probably form a sentence correctly as well as properly spell and pronounce words.

In a promotional video about the product, the voice-over pronounces "nuclear" as "nucular" a la George Bush. I forget the other mispronounced word in the video. George W isn't known across America as the "head village idiot" for nothing, and the lack of intelligence is clearly on display all over the promotional materials surrounding this "product".

Dan Stalfire spells oops "opps". You can claim it to be messy hurried chat-room typing, but you lose credibility as an intelligent person immediately when you make mistakes like these when writing to convince people about something that is important to you.

LB writes: "A Double-Blind Placebo Controlled Study to Evaluate the Possible Performance Enhancing Effects of the LifeWave
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 | 01:45 AM
Tony said:

"My only other point is that everyone seems to be completely overlooking the power of placebo. I refuse to try the patches because deep down inside, no matter how much of a skeptic I am, I know that I would want them to work. Wouldn't it be great if they did? This is the sole reason for the success of this product."

You wrote good words, Tony. I do have to point out, however, that I believe the "placebo effect" HAS been discussed in relation to the LifeWave patches. I think I even said something about it.

BTW, anyone who is interested in this subject should check out James Randi's new commentary at randi.org. About halfway down the page you'll see a picture of our old friends, the LifeWave patches (just in case you wanted to know what they look like).
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 | 12:20 PM
CMG, thanks for sending the patches to Randi. Now I know what they look like. I wish he had cut them open to get the stuff inside analyzed. What was he afraid of? Anthrax? I don't think LifeWave has the technology to make anything that complicated. They'd have to study biology first.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 | 01:00 AM
Captain Al said:

"CMG, thanks for sending the patches to Randi. Now I know what they look like. I wish he had cut them open to get the stuff inside analyzed. What was he afraid of? Anthrax? I don't think LifeWave has the technology to make anything that complicated. They'd have to study biology first."

It's funny; when I spoke to Randi a few weeks ago, I told him that it didn't look to me as if there was ANY liquid in the LifeWave thingies. I'll defer to him, though. He may have examined them better than I did.

Gosh, Al, I don't know how you can say the LifeWave people need to study biology. Aren't they experts in nanotechnology??
David B.
Member
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 | 07:24 AM
Aren't they experts in nanotechnology??

I always thought that was a misprint. I thought they were saying they were nanoexperts in technology; i.e. with a billionth of the knowledge of a real expert!
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 | 09:08 AM
Nanoexperts yes. That means they know everything about nothing or they know nothing about everything.
According to LifeWave, nanotechnology is the science of building things with atoms. So to them that includes everything from crowbars to the space shuttle.
Ryan W.
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 | 03:30 PM
So, I found this forum, because I was just subjected to an hour of their little MLM pitch from a "friend" who I hadn't heard from in some time. The one thing that struck me is that his script seems to call whatever is going on with the patch "nanotechnology". Must have come as a surprise to him that I actually know what nanotechnology is, and that what they say these patches do wouldn't have anything to do with nanotechnology, which hasn't even been created yet. Maybe it does something, maybe it doesn't. I think it's probably placebo. Also, they say that it creates energy by tricking your mind into burning more fat than usual, which wouldn't be an instantaneous thing, so all this stuff about repping more right after putting it on is crap. Also, the fact that GNC and everywhere elso already have pills that increase fat burn for energy, so this is nothing new. Apparently, they are going to be coming out with new ones that will manipulate your mind and body in a variety of other fashions...and only for $80 for a monthly supply. Wow.

It's fucking Quickstar with a different product..nothing more, nothing less.

And why don't people on this say where they got their degrees from? A "major" university, huh? University of Phoenix? City University? Major doesn't necessarily mean good.
David B.
Member
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 | 04:35 PM
And why don't people on this say where they got their degrees from? A "major" university, huh? University of Phoenix? City University? Major doesn't necessarily mean good.

Worse than that, 'university' doesn't mean didley either. I have a degree from a major university (a real, bona fide one), it doesn't immediately preclude me from wanting to scam your life-savings off you.

Unlike LifeWave(tm) however, my VitaRipple patches are absolutely guaranteed to have been tested by a fully qualified doctor and biologist who is prepared to say that they are quite the most astounding training aid he has ever encountered.

Sounds good doesn't it; but what did I actually claim? "[...]my VitaRipple patches are absolutely guaranteed to have been tested [yup we tested them, they did squat] by a fully qualified doctor [me] and biologist [still me] who is prepared to say [if there's enough money in it] that they are quite the most astounding [as in "And people will buy this crap? I'm astounded!"] training aid he has ever encountered [mind you I'm a couch potato, for 2 years I wondered who this 'Jim' fellow was my co-workers went to see 3 times a week]."

On of the best books I read in childhood was "Madvertising: Or, Up Madison Avenue". Before then I hadn't really thought about adverts, I'd just absorbed them; afterwards you couldn't have sold me lead knickers in the middle of a nuclear war.
The Caped Avenger
Member
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 | 08:08 AM
Hey David B

Sorry - newbie - don't know how to start a new thread!

Bricks, bullets, arrows etc don't count - the guy punched (a straight punch) at a sheet of glass (admittedly thin) in a wooden frame. He did not touch the glass that any of us could see, his fist stopped short of the glass, apparently. The glass shattered as if his fist had gone through it - not a crack, or a "star", but a fist-sized hole. The shards flew about 2 or 3 meters in the direction of the punch.

I draw no conclusion, and I am quite prepared to believe that there was some form of trick involved. Whatever it was was good, though.

Not at all like LifeWave. I cannot believe that this bulldust cannot be subjected to a standard double blind experiment as a matter of legal necessity (in order to stop what is obvious pyramid marketing)

At the same time - have you ever come across a book on the Madison Avenue crowd (and the Londoners that followed on) called The Want Makers?

Now that IS a good read. Especially if one (as I do) makes one's living in the marketing industry!

I am pretty sure that one can pick it up on Amazon. Debunks the old chestnut about Coke's subliminal marketing, (that one where they replace one frame of a movie ad with a pic of a bottle of Coke) and scares up a host of bogeymen of worse character that that old 'un!
The Caped Avenger
Member
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 | 08:09 AM
Oooooops!

errrr - I posted as Roy before I registered and assumed my alter-ego....

How about that new thread thing??
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 | 03:02 AM
David B. said:

"Aren't they experts in nanotechnology??

"I always thought that was a misprint. I thought they were saying they were nanoexperts in technology; i.e. with a billionth of the knowledge of a real expert!"

You probably figured this out, but my reference to they're being "experts" in nanotechnology was sarcastic.

If they're truly experts in anything, it's bullshit.
David B.
Member
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 | 06:19 PM

He did not touch the glass that any of us could see, his fist stopped short of the glass, apparently.

I've seen similar things done on TV once. What struck me about that 'shaolin' exhibition group's version is that they quite clearly WERE touching the glass.

Very quickly, right at the end of the punch, the fist briefly hit the centre of the glass (which stellated) and was instantly withdrawn just an inch or so. To the audience, it must have looked as if the fist stopped short. I guess if you pre-score a circle on the pane then fill it with some clear polish to disguise the fact, a hole could be punched out just as easily.

Given that various martial arts troupes appear to be able to do this both on TV and at will, it should be the simplest thing in the world to repeat this feat in front of a high-speed camera. A conclusive demonstration like that would easily win the JREF $1 million, not to mention the unbeatable free publicity for their particular school of martial art.

What always bugs me is that martial-arts experts already have a whole portfolio of impressive physical feats at their command. So why claim a load of dubious supernatural ones?
The Caped Avenger
Member
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 | 12:55 AM
David wrote:

What always bugs me is that martial-arts experts already have a whole portfolio of impressive physical feats at their command. So why claim a load of dubious supernatural ones?


Hmmm....

Lots of possible reasons for that, David. But at the same time, I think that if the issues are examined closely, the actual "supernatural" component is more natural than anything else.

There could well be a physical explanation here - possibly a "compression wave" of air that actually pops the glass? (please excuse my hasty and ill-considered phrasing...)

I have seen some realy impressive things for martial artists over the years - and experienced the results of one or two as well, if truth be told. But i am sure that this is a topic for another thread...

As is the potential debate of "supernatural" vs "natural" - the thin edge of my wedge on that would be that anything that can be shown to be an actual phenomenon would immediately be "natural" and not that other word that I have no respect for... surely anything that takes place in this world must be considered to be natural? The (ugh!) supernatural world is merely a melange of the unknown and the impossible, and we plod along trying to discern the difference between the two - and every now and then a bright chap pops up and does something that was previously considered impossible.

hmmm...
Tank
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 | 12:47 PM
I have just been called by my friendly LifeWave guy again. I think he genuinely believes that he is trying to help me with a real product.
I am exasperated.
Rather like having a religious debate.
Belief is un-shakeable

Is what they are doing legal???

He sent me a documend supposed to be a peer reviewed double blind study.....'twas a bit of a joke really. no references, no journal and hence no peer review, just a word document. Written by David Schmidt apparently.

more exasperation ;o|

This product is apparently being launced in the UK next month.

What can we do....presumably nothing.
Trading standards??

Tank

p.s. Mr Caped Avenger, do you still want a chat about Chi?
Tank
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 | 04:33 PM
no affiliations mentioned anywhere on the paper. Just a word document. No references. One author - David Schmidt. I'm a scientist, that sort of thing is hardly likely to impress me. It didn't. How stupid do they think I am.
'but read the testimonials' is the other cry.
Why? they mean nothing in terms of proof of anything.
Except that people BELIEVE that it works.
The thing is that people fall for it and it bugs me that there is nothing to stop this behaviour. Preying on people who don't know to question....or worse have an illness which they are told they can treat with this product.

I'm sorry, I rant too much

Tank
Studmuffin :)
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 06:04 PM
New guy here. I hope no one minds. Sorry for the length of this, a lot to cover on my first try.

I have just been exposed to Lifewave by a business associate. He is doing work for me and just happened to mention this "miraculous" new product.

So, I have gone looking for opponents as he's certainly taken care of the proponent side. (Thanks for some of the chuckles.)

Anyway, it seems that both sides are rather intractable. The "experts" cited early in the thread seem to have questionable credentials. Their monetary interests, certainly a reason for suspicion, should not in itself discount one's voracity. After all, none of us work for free.
"...Free enterpise is the strong horse that pulls the whole cart"
Their past, however, is a reason for doubt. "A leopard...spots" and all that.

"Try it yourself" is an arguement, but not proof of efficacy. Someone mentioned that the science must be proven because "it works" isn't good enough. True, to a point. The inventors don't know how it works? Hhmmm.
Well, neither do doctors, about most medications.

I'm a diabetic. I take metformin and glucotrol. One to reduce production of sugar in the liver and the other to increase pancreatic insulin production. My doctor, an internist with a second doctorate in biochemistry, told me that no one really knows why these drugs work, only that they do. In other words, when someone takes the drug(s), their blood glucose levels drop.

Another issue seems to be working its way through this thread. Cures. If anyone is saying Lifewave is curing anything, they are in violation of the law!

Might I suggest, humbly, that proponents be curious and skeptical, and opponents just try it.
I'm going to. But it will be for free until "it works" for me.

Anyone want to send me some patches?
Thanks for your patience.
The Caped Avenger
Member
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 12:26 AM
Tank wrote:

"What can we do....presumably nothing.
Trading standards??"

Surely (I am not too sure about the law in other countries, but here goes...)if it can be shown that the patches do not contain anything other than the substrate, and it can be shown that the manufacturer is aware that they are essentially functionless, then the whole ball of wax would be seen to be a pyramid scheme pure and simple. Now as far as I am aware, that is illegal just about everywhere.

Anyone got the info on where they are made?
Tank
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 05:05 AM
Studmuffin,

They may not know exactly how it works but there is plenty of properly documented research to prove that it does, and what it's side effects - if any - are. The products will have gone through many years of research before a human used them at all, and then many more before they were generally prescribable.

This is where things can get sticky you see, not all science/medicine can be explained entirely but that does not mean that doubters of something unexplainable should automatically be dismissed and that any claim should be believed.
Even if you do not know how something works you can still prove that it does indeed do what it says on the tin by doing some decent scientific research.

The lack of knowledge of the product works is just one of the alarm bells, the lack of proper evidence is the final nail in the coffin, for me, for this product.

Tank
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 | 01:03 PM
Has anyone else noticed that at the bottom of the LifeWave home page is a link called "Visit pur news page for more information".
Follow the link and click on "Quick Updates" 11/23/04 "Study confirms (again) that patches are non-transdermal".
In the report, by MVA Scientific Consultants, they mention that..."in the brown (glucose) patch and in the white(glycerin) patch".
So we at least know that the patches are worth something. Save the contents in two jars, one for glucose, one for glycerin. Something to sweeten drinks and something to keep your hands in nice condition! When will this sham ever end?
scubasteve11
Member
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 | 09:40 PM
Cranky Media Guy....you have been quiet for a while. I looked briefly for your response after trying the patches but I failed to see your testimonial. How many did you try? Where did you place them? Let me guess.....they didn't work for you because you are an inactive couch potatoe that wouldn't know what energy actually felt like!!

You are quick to cut down lifewave but until you try the product for a week you should have no further comments. The patches work and that is the bottom line. If they are a placebo like you are convinced then great...I will keep wearing them for the rest of my life because I feel fantastic. Its funny how the placebo has not worn off yet after I have been wearing them for 5 months.

I'm not out to make money - I like feeling great and having extra strength in the gym and not being tired at the end of the day.

Someday you will have to swallow that foot of yours. Seems like you have a lot of extra time on your hands.... in front of your computer instead of getting some exercise. By the way are you being payed by James Randi to kiss his ass??
The Caped Avenger
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 | 12:27 AM
Hmmm.... Cretin in the house...

scubasteve11 (are there really 10 others?) wrote:

"I'm not out to make money - I like feeling great and .. blah blah blah..."

Sure you're not out to make money, snorkelpeter, money is being made from you.

BTW - I have some GENUINE relics of several prominent saints in my possession - would you like to buy one? They cure scrofula, hives, shingles and are guaranteed effective against vampire attack. Of course, if they don't work for you, you could always put them up in a roadside shrine and make some money off ignorant pilgrims. (And boy, there are a lot of those!)
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 | 01:51 AM
scubasteve11 said:

"Cranky Media Guy....you have been quiet for a while. I looked briefly for your response after trying the patches but I failed to see your testimonial. How many did you try? Where did you place them? Let me guess.....they didn't work for you because you are an inactive couch potatoe that wouldn't know what energy actually felt like!!"

Oh, I just LOVE it when someone who doesn't know me makes unsupported assertions about me, then insults me based on them. How entertaining!

I DID previously explain that I gave my LifeWave patches to my wife who wore them on her arms as directed and...nothing. No change in energy, no change in mood. No nothing. Yeah, I know, I know, her skeptical "vibrations" interfered with their crystal-energized holographic force field or something. Whatever, dude.

"You are quick to cut down lifewave but until you try the product for a week you should have no further comments. The patches work and that is the bottom line. If they are a placebo like you are convinced then great...I will keep wearing them for the rest of my life because I feel fantastic. Its funny how the placebo has not worn off yet after I have been wearing them for 5 months."

I think it speaks volumes about you that you say you would wear them even if it became obvious that they were a placebo. If they are, as I believe, nothing more than a placebo, then ANYTHING at all would give you the same effect. Buy a rabbit's foot!

"I'm not out to make money - I like feeling great and having extra strength in the gym and not being tired at the end of the day."

Who do you know who DOES like to be tired at the end of the day? Hmm, lemme guess: even though you aren't in it to make money, you DO sell them and make money, right? Since you're such a humanitarian and all, why don't you just give them away or sell them for exactly what you pay for them?

"Someday you will have to swallow that foot of yours. Seems like you have a lot of extra time on your hands.... in front of your computer instead of getting some exercise."

Hmm, you start off by saying you haven't seen me here in a while. Now you're saying I must have a lot of extra time on my hands? On what would you be basing that assumption? Pick an insult and stick with it!

By the way, what exactly would make me "swallow my foot?" Proof that the patches work? Not likely as you guys won't submit them for any actual scientific testing. Not even for a million dollars! Fascinating.

"By the way are you being payed by James Randi to kiss his ass??"

Nope. I'm just a fan of a man who has spent a lifetime trying to educate people about fraud, quackery and pseudoscience. By the way, the word you want is "paid," not "payed." Hey, maybe you should stick the patches on opposite sides of your head to increase your IQ. You apparently haven't learned yet that personal insults are no substitute for proof of your pseudoscientific assertions.
scubasteve11
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 | 07:27 AM
Cranky media guy - You have not answered my questions. It appears that your wife has tried the patches for one day. Am I correct? What about you? Why haven't you tried them? If you are so convinced that they do not work then what are you afraid of? My worry with you trying them is that you wouldn't notice a difference because they really become noticebale when you are doing something physically active. Plunking away on your keyboard, taking your online spelling and grammar courses, and having coffee with James doesn't count.

By the way I am not making any money, nor is anyone else making any money for me. When I do sell the patches I sell them for the price I paid. (Did I get it right this time?)

If you can send me that rabbit's foot you are refering to I would gladly wear it for 5 months if it does what the patches do.

"Proof" in your terms will be out very soon.
Ryan W.
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 | 10:56 AM
Drink the kool-aid, brothers and sisters...my god, these people are fucking stupid.

Listen, if you want some extra energy and some weight loss, take the GNC red, white and blue pills. Sure, they're bad for your kidneys, but at least you're actually getting something for your money.

All you Lifewave reps out there should read up and realize how stupid David Schmidt is making you sound. When I was pitched, the Lifewave rep was using the word "nanotechnology", which would have nothing to do with what you are claiming these patches do. Here's a pretty good description of what nanotechnology actually is:

http://www.zyvex.com/nano/

Read it, realize that you're being made a fool, and cut it out already. Or, just be comfortable with the fact that you are engaging in a pyramid scheme and that there are plenty of idiots out there to make you rich, and get on with it. But PLEASE, stop trying to defend the validity of this bullshit product with actual thinking people.
zydeco
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 | 12:19 PM
RW, This is one of the weakest postings I've seen. I've got no interest in this argument ... but if you're going to do a "search" to learn about nanotechnology ... look beyond one website.
David B.
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 | 12:43 PM
look beyond one website

Okay...

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotechnology"> Two </a>
<a href="http://www.nano.org.uk/nano.htm"> Three </a>
<a href="http://www.foresight.org/nano/index.html"> Four </a>
<a href="http://www.nanotech-now.com/introduction.htm"> Five </a>
The Caped Avenger
Member
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 | 12:41 AM
Cranky Media Guy wrote:

"By the way, the word you want is "paid," not "payed." Hey, maybe you should stick the patches on opposite sides of your head to increase your IQ."

Oh Lord, I am still in convulsions - I can hardly type....

Guys - this is not really on-topic, but it has to be said. Over the years I have frequented a few forums (fora??) but this one is the PERFECT blend of genuine intelligence, ascerbic wit, gratuitous stupidity, moral turpitude and plain down-home bullshit that I have EVER found.

I love it here. Good for a laugh, food for thought and real people with strong minds and wide interests/professional careers.

And Cranky Media Guy - you have spawned the next wave of MLM patches, dude! And this one is PERFECT! Only the truly stupid will want them..... AAAAARGHHH!!! It's killing me...

Go diving, FlipperFred.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 | 01:43 AM
The Caped Avenger said:

"And Cranky Media Guy - you have spawned the next wave of MLM patches, dude! And this one is PERFECT! Only the truly stupid will want them..... AAAAARGHHH!!! It's killing me..."

Coming up with ideas that other people then ride to riches is pretty much what I do, C.A.

You're probably right about the next MLM. I mean, they're just people helping people, right? (for the uniniated, "people helping people" is a line of crap that participants in pyramid schemes tend to use to suck their friends and family members into the scam)
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