The Museum of Hoaxes
LifeWave Energy Patches
Posted By:
Fawkes
Feb 24, 2005
 Now you can get more energy from a patch! I especially like the way that
they "believe" that it works. It is also based on years of research from
many fields. While the research may be valid, I'm not sure that their
results were intended to be used with a "patent pending blend of water,
oxygen, amino acids and organics applied to a polyester fabric and sealed
within a polymer shell".

http://www.contactplus.com/lifewave.htm

We can finally have our super-soldiers now!
Category: Health; Replies: 5918

Comments
Page 20 of 99 pages ‹ First  < 18 19 20 21 22 >  Last ›
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 01:05 AM
EDHUK said:

"Sceptics like WWSN1, CMG and many more, including me, would be only too happy to be proved wrong. There are occasions when extra energy would be most useful! I've always been very comfortable with leaving the possibility open for proof."

Damn straight I'd like a simple way to get more energy now that I'm middle-aged and fat. Unfortunately, the claims made for the LifeWave patches simply aren't believable.

I would be THRILLED to be proven wrong. It would be a quantum leap forward in knowledge for the human race if little adhesive plastic patches which put nothing into the human body could give you more energy. I think we'll see the advent of porcine aviation before that happens, though.
Able to fly
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 03:19 AM
Cranky Media Guy

I have posted the link to the whole transcript earlier, but here it is again: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0106/05/lkl.00.html
We can't know for certain that there were two rose bushes, just as we can't know for certain that the answers given in advance for a Challenge would be the correct answers. The person having the sitting may genuinely not know the whole story. Alternatively, they may actually lie.

Ultimately you are confirming exactly what I have been trying to argue...Some things can not be PROVED or DISPROVED. Sometimes the answers are beyond our comprehension.

In the case of the patches there are claims that people feel more energetic as a result of wearing them. It is possible that this is a coincidence. It is possible that it is a placebo effect. It is possible that it is some unexplained reaction. It is also possible that they interact with a Human Energy Field.

To argue that acceptance or regection of the Randi Challenge has any relevance to the validity of the Lifewave claims is just nonsense. What I would like to see is a detailed description of an experiment that someone feels would genuinely determine whether the Lifewave claims are real.

Comparing the patches to a placebo patch would only give significant results if the placebo patch rarely caused an increase in energy. However, if we got 100 people to wear the lifewave patches and 100 people to wear the placebo patches, and if the results were similar (say 85% for Lifewave and 75% for placebo as an example), then would this similarity indicate anything more than the fact that the placebo was not a good choice of control for the experiment.

I have heard reference to use of a SQUID magnetometer. However as I am not familiar with this eqipment I don't know if it is acceptable as a means to test.

I would be happy to see the Lifewave patches tested responsibly and independantly. I do not believe it should be up to JREF or Lifewave to decide what constitutes a pass or fail as both parties have a financial stake. Unfortunately, unless the government has something to gain by ordering a test done then they are not likely to ask for it. The chances of having Lifewave put to the test are probably similar to the chances of putting the Catholic Church to the test.

Other than failure to take the Randi Challenge and failure to be accepted by some members of the scientific community, is there anything to suggest that the patches are definitely a Hoax?
Able to fly
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 03:48 AM
In case my answer to CMG's question wasn't clear: "You've been asked before, but I'll try again: how do you know that the "increase in energy" you believe you experienced is attributable to the patches and not to something else?"

I have said numerous times on this forum that it could have been due to other factors. I even suggested the glue. I have admitted all along that I don't know for sure that it was due to the patches, but I also don't know that it wasn't. My son wore the patches again this weekend for basketball and for training. My husband watched him and could not believe his performance this week, especially since my son has a cold and had to take Friday off school to rest. Again it may be that he is just getting stronger from training or diet and this is just a coincidence, but 3 sets of "suicides" with 15 push-ups at each end and he finished before the rest.

It is my son's dream to play in a National Basketball team one day. If these patches help than I am thrilled. The cost of the patches doesn't worry me. However, if an acceptable test on the patches was carried out I would be keen to know the results whatever they should turn out to be. I would especially be keen to know if there could be any negative effects.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 06:48 AM
Able to fly

I would especially be keen to know if there could be any negative effects.

In the meantime you are, presumably, keeping your fingers crossed that no harm will come to your son from using an untested product. (Rest assured. I have a "feeling" he'll be at ZERO risk from the patches).

I find it interesting that you have posted so much information about psychics etc. What has that to do with the outrageous claims made by businessman David Schmidt?

However, if an acceptable test on the patches was carried out I would be keen to know the results whatever they should turn out to be.

I don't know how many times this point has to be made. The James Randi Million Dollar Challenge is incredibly, moronically SIMPLE.

LifeWave would design a test that they AND the James Randi people AGREE would demonstrate UNEQUIVOCABLY that the patches do what David Schmidt claims they do. Nothing more, nothing less.

Surely, David Schmidt would have little trouble in coming up with a simple demonstration that proves once and for all his product is genuine and performs as claimed.

The man, after all, claims to have invented one of the most significant scientific breakthroughs in modern history! A simple demonstration would be chump change!

Can we please focus on David Schmidt's claims. He is, after all, the reason we are spending (wasting) so much of our energy posting here.

Not on James Randi, Larry King, Sylvia Browne, The Massed Bands of the Queens Highlanders, Eric and His Amazing Flying Ferret...and all the other methods of diversion, delay, smoke and mirrors...de dah de dah.

If I invent something and claim it can do something, you can be **** sure I will demonstrate to YOUR absolute satisfaction, and verifiable by ANY bona fide methods, that my invention will perform exactly as I claim.

What is so DIFFICULT about this concept?

Able to fly.

You have indeed raised some interesting points, however, you are rapidly heading in the direction of DELUSIONAL thinking. Should you secure a place, along with other delusional thinkers, I will no longer have the pleasure of trying to answer some of your questions.

As a psychiatric nurse, I am all too aware that a delusion is impervious to logical argument; hence, I would no longer try.

Let's get back to the focus of this forum

David Schmidt claims to have a two patch system of glucose and glycerin that, when placed on points over your body, sends "messages" that tell your body to produce "more energy".

Nobody knows how this happens, and Schmidt is unable to demonstrate in an acceptable fashion how this occurs.

Let us PLEASE continue the debate about this central claim.

Respectfully.

*
Joe
Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 08:25 AM
If these claims were true, this would be one of the greatest discoveries. Also, money seems to very important to David as the patches are very costly to purchase.

Conclusion: Why isn't there a patent (after 4 years) on this wonderful discovery in order to protect millions upon millions of dollars?
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 08:50 AM
Joe

We both know you actually need SOMETHING to patent!

LOL
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 08:52 AM
EDHUK says:

"I don't know how many times this point has to be made. The James Randi Million Dollar Challenge is incredibly, moronically SIMPLE. "

It must be very disheartening for these psychics and their believers to discover what they have to do to legitimately prove their claims. They have to pass real tests and deal with real statistics. No gullible subjects, no cold reading, no microphones in the audience and no video editing after the fact. Suddenly their powers vanish. I wonder why?

The same thing applies to Lifewave. Their flashy website, techno-babble essays, hired-gun anything-for-a-buck medical practitioners and phoney studies done at universities without their consent by unqualified researchers, mean nothing.

Welcome to the real world.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 10:00 AM
Captain Al

You raise a critical point.

"Welcome to the real world."

I think we have generally agreed that there are people out there who gladly sell patches to make a buck. They couldn't care less if they work or not, just so long as their bank balance continues to go in the right direction.

Then there are the true believers who get cold chills when they think about how amazing this new technology is. They don't know how it works...they just believe it does.

My friend belongs to this group. Always looking for the next "great thing" to come along and make their life more worthwhile, healthier. From standing on powerful magnets, to exclusively eating raw foods, to workouts at the gym, meditation etc. etc. Always looking...always dissatisfied.

My friend doesn't want to belong to the "real" world because it contains everything they hate.

When sceptics come along they threaten to burst the bubble that cocoons them; to take away the very product that places them in a "special" group away from "ordinary" people.

We should not be at all surprised at the vehemence expressed by such people. One could almost admire such dedication to a lost cause.

As you stated, "welcome to the real world" the world of Dollars and Cents; where David Schmidt has hung out his shingle and is laughing all the way to the bank!

Reality check anyone?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 01:47 PM
Able to fly said:

I have said numerous times on this forum that it could have been due to other factors. I even suggested the glue."

I'm starting to suspect that it's an ABSENCE of glue; i.e. you are starting to come unglued.

When you first came into this forum, I took you at your word, that you were just a person interested in the discussion. I suspect there's more to it than that, though. You've just gone too far afield in an attempt to defend these unproven little adhesive patches.

"I have admitted all along that I don't know for sure that it was due to the patches, but I also don't know that it wasn't. My son wore the patches again this weekend for basketball and for training. My husband watched him and could not believe his performance this week, especially since my son has a cold and had to take Friday off school to rest. Again it may be that he is just getting stronger from training or diet and this is just a coincidence, but 3 sets of "suicides" with 15 push-ups at each end and he finished before the rest."

So, instead of taking the patches off your son and seeing what happens, you prefer to continue with the voodoo. Interesting.

Tape some Lego bricks to his arm and see what happens. Hey, like you keep saying, where's the harm? Can't hurt him, right? If he has a good week, well, maybe it's attributable to the tape you used to attach them to his arm. I mean, so long as we're grasping for straws...
Able to fly
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 02:59 PM
I'LL SAY IT AGAIN:
I do not believe it should be up to JREF or Lifewave to decide what constitutes a pass or fail as both parties have a financial stake.

Are so few of you able to see beyond James Randi?
Is he a GOD to you?

This forum doesn't seem to be about Lifewave and whether the patches are real or a hoax. It is just a sales pitch for JREF. I'm beginning to see that discussing this matter with you is a waste of time.

Does anyone (other CMG)have any suggestions for testing that DON'T include Randi or JREF, or are you all such devoted disciples that you are too afraid to practice THINKING FOR YOURSELF?

Cranky Media Guy. Thanks for the suggestion. However it comes back to what I said about the Placebo effect. If he does continue to perform well it only proves that the use of a placebo may not a good control. If he doesn't then it may be still only be psychological, yet we would be left with a positive result for the patches and a negative result for the lego. Should we conclude that the patches work? What is needed is a test that can physically measure the reaction to the patches without letting the person wearing them know what we are looking for or what it is claimed the patches could do.

ANY SUGGESTIONS?
DS
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 03:16 PM
Able To Fly

Can't you see your wasting your time with this bunch.

The real issue with JREF is they do not have the money to put up for the challenge. Lifewave asked them to "escrow" the million dollars before preceeding. They would not: You have to ask why not.

What Company with any sense would go through all the effort required if they could not get paid off upon completion?

The simple fact JREF would not place the money with an independent thrid party should tell you all you need to know.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 03:21 PM
Able to fly

What is needed is a test that can physically measure the reaction to the patches without letting the person wearing them know what we are looking for or what it is claimed the patches could do.
ANY SUGGESTIONS?

Well, er, YES.

Double blind study. Standard testing protocol accepted worldwide.

Neither the person being tested OR the people carrying out the test has any idea what's in the product being tested.

I do not believe it should be up to JREF or Lifewave to decide what constitutes a pass or fail as both parties have a financial stake.


Yes, I agree that LifWave have a financial stake. They would loose everything should their claim be false. Their product is genuine though isn't it?

I'm afraid this last posting of yours has given me serious doubts about your intentions and your sub-plot.

I'll leave others to continue the dialogue.

Regards.
*
Joe
Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 03:23 PM
I don't think anyone is trying to promote JREF here. It has only come up here and there. It is just a way to get $1 million dollars and also prove they work. We have been asking for double-blind clinical tests where the end result would be proof they work. At least with the JREF they would get $1 million out of it.

Also, these independent tests need to be done by those who are not distibutors of lifewave. I would suggest reading the first 40-50 pages of this forum and see the Lifewavers before and after the conference.
SurfRat
Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 04:07 PM
Anyone know if there has been any further tests on this product or not, they seem to work for me.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 04:29 PM
DS

Please check your facts before putting your foot in your mouth!

http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

Rule 8.

"At the formal test, in advance, an independent person will be placed in charge of a personal check from James Randi for US$10,000. In the event that the claimant is successful under the agreed terms and conditions, that check shall be immediately surrendered to the claimant, and within ten days the James Randi Educational Foundation will pay to the claimant the remainder of the reward, for a total of US$1,000,000. One million dollars in negotiable bonds is held by an investment firm in New York, in the "James Randi Educational Foundation Prize Account" as surety for the prize funds. Validation of this account and its current status may be obtained by contacting the Foundation by telephone, fax, or e-mail."

DS "Lifewave asked them to "escrow" the million dollars before preceeding."

Why would LifeWave ask in the first place when rule 10 clearly states this will not be entertained.

There is only one reason and you have just proved it by posting:

"They would not: You have to ask why not."


Rule 10.
"...JREF will not entertain any demand that the prize money be deposited in escrow, displayed in cash, or otherwise produced in advance of the test being performed. JREF will not cater to such vanities."

Even the boys at LifeWave could do the preliminary test, surely? Someone would go to Georgia to see them on their home turf. How cosy.

Your points are, as we have come to expect, a little economical with the truth.

*
Able to fly
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 04:42 PM
Lifewave claim they have done a double blind study, but I don't trust them to report all the results without bias.

Any suggestions on who might be interested to carry out or fund the tests independantly, out of the interest of science and without an already formed opinion?

In Australia in a situation like this people often approach TV programs like A Current Affairs. However I can't say that their testing methods look very professional.

EDHUK what do you mean by "sub-plot". And I am tired of repeating why I am interested in this matter. I have a son who is using the patches. I do not sell them. I am not working for Lifewave. Just like you I want to know the truth. The difference is that I am not trusting either Lifewave or JREF and hoping someone else might test the patches, whereas you seem to think that the JREF Challenge would be adequate.
DS
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 04:43 PM
Yeah right, a personal check LOL

Again-no one in their right mind would go through the effort unless funds were escrowed in advance.

The question is not why Lifewave would ask, but why JREF would not honor such a request.

Escrowing funds to buy real estate is done every day. It is not an uncommon practice.

Oh and yes by all means, I should call up the "Foundation" to assure me that they have the funds. Or better yet get a piece of paper faxed to me that states they have it.

ED, maybe you should get that PROOF and post it for us.

Escrowing funds is a common practice. Once again, the fact that JREF will not do it tells us all we need to know.
Anon
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 05:02 PM
Hey DS,

answer me this. I want to see if I get the same response from you as I do from my friends selling Lifewave.

Why did Schmidt decide to let un-educated, untrained people promote his product via the internet/word of mouth. Why didnt he go to major chains like Walmart/GNC/etc. with his patented product and sell his "working" patches there. You would think that GNC and Walmart themselves would jump at that sales opportunity and want to carry the various lines he would bring out.

I look forward to your response!
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 05:03 PM
DS

You are still not reading the words are you.

Nuff said.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 05:05 PM
ps Who is ED?
Able to fly
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 05:17 PM
DS By repeating the claim that Lifewave backed out because the JREF wouldn't escrow the funds you only serve to make Lifewave look like bullies.

It is clearly stated in the rules of the challenge that they would not.
DS
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 05:17 PM
Stop drinking the JREF Koolaide EDHUK. Escrowing funds is a routine practice, no matter how you try to spin it.

Ever watch the World Series of Poker. The last two finalists sit down at the table with all the money piled up in the corner. Now that's a challenge.

Would you sell anyone your house without escrowing funds? I am sure you would take their word that they have bonds in their brokerage account, right?

The words are quite clear: JREF does not have the money to put up into escrow. NEVER HAS, NEVER WILL!!
DS
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 05:27 PM
Able To Fly

You may see it as bullying, I see it as common business practice. You would never negotiate any type of contract without assurances that both parties can perform.

Escrow funds, escrow negotiable bonds. It does not matter, just escrow the consideration to prove you can perform.

Not an uncommon, or difficult, request.

Again, the question is why won't JREF do it? They answer is obvious.
Able to fly
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 05:52 PM
DS while you and I may have looked at the rules and said NO WAY... unfortunately David Schmidt said Yes thank you, but we will do it MY way. Had he just pointed out that the terms of the challenge were unacceptable and NOT agreed to participate it would have been fine.

I believe David Schmidt made a silly mistake. However it does make me wonder.....Did he agree because he really does believe in his patches and really does believe they can be proved scientifically? Or did he agree because he thought he might get away with fooling Randi?

Anyway any mention of Randi just annoys me. In almost every article I have read he is quoted calling someone a LIAR. That is a rather big accusation. Why would anyone bother to prove anything to this man? Not even $1,000,000.00 would be enough for me to put up with his arrogance.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 06:06 PM
DS

I'm not too sure what kind of drink you're on, but it sure ain't koolaide!

The JREF challenge has only come up in this forum because they offer a prize.

As for the escrow. What exactly is JREF selling? It's not a house!

They clearly stated their rules and you, I mean LifeWave, didn't want to play the game.

LifeWave, and you, know for absolute certainty that they cannot win. They don't have a product to test. They wouldn't even make it past the first informal stage.

Now I'll just send my bill to James, along with my bill to the sports companies I represent, and the drinks manufacturers I represent, and Red Bull and...........

*
DS
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 06:24 PM
EDHUK, you hit the nail on the head:

Lifewave did not want to play the JREF GAME

escrow (as in "written agreement") n. : a written agreement (or property or money) delivered to a third party or put in trust by one party to a contract to be returned after fulfillment of some condition

Escrows insure performance, whether real property is involved or not.

no escrow = no credibility = JREF's game

Why would any Company waste their time, effort, and money on a GAME?
Able to fly
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 06:36 PM
Anon you asked:
"Why did Schmidt decide to let un-educated, untrained people promote his product via the internet/word of mouth"

On the DVD that my friend sent to me (I finally got around to watching it), David Schmidt said that he tried for some time to get the patches into retail store. Eventually he discovered that direct marketing worked. He claims that after about a year of successful direct marketing he was approached by a company (I think he said GNC but I am not sure) but after some consideration he decided to stick with direct marketing for two reasons:
1. Because he didn't think the patches would sell themselves just sitting on the shelf and needed real people to promote them.
2. Because he had already set up a networking system and he wanted to remain loyal to those who were already involved.

I have a number of business associates who chose to promote their products in Australia through network marketing for the very same reasons. In fact I was employed once by a company who made the mistake of putting their electrical appliance in retail stores where they sat unsold and were eventually returned to us. With a warehouse full of stock I offered to promote them on the internet for them as an independant agent.

I now run a very succesful business over the internet (which is why I am always online) and nearly everyweek I am approached by companies about great appliances that should sell, but haven't yet moved through retail stores. On the internet it is easy to promote the features and benefits. However training staff in retail stores can be very time consuming and expensive. In my case the retailers are still free to sell the same appliance, yet I seem to outsell them all the time.

Don't underestimate the power of the internet and especially ebay. It has the largest marketplace you will ever find and people will pay top dollar if they feel that the backup support and product knowledge is there.
Razela
in Chicago, IL
 Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 06:41 PM
Ya know, with all this talk of JREF and James Randi being so horrible, rude, hard to work with liars and such, I've never really noticed that except when whomever they/he were communicating with was acting the above.

For example, check this thread from the JREF website on an applicant for an oija board test for the $1000000.
<a href="http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=08d6ce7df34f1e8dbf3d2d6b57cf2552&t=43349">http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=08d6ce7df34f1e8dbf3d2d6b57cf2552&t=43349</a>

The applicant is being polite and cooperating, and JREF is being the same in response. You get what you give. I'm sure that if lifewave was as respectful as this applicant (rather then make false accusations against JREF), they would have been treated with the same respect.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 06:55 PM
DS, you said:
"The words are quite clear: JREF does not have the money to put up into escrow. NEVER HAS, NEVER WILL!!"

Since you are unwilling or perhaps unable to do the simplest research, I have taken the liberty of doing it for you.

To see the proof of the JREF's assets (including the reserved $1,000,000) just go to <a href="http://tfcny.fdncenter.org/990s/990search/990.php?ein=650649443&yr=200412&rt=990&t9=A">JREF 990</a>. (Put your cursor over the highlighted words until you see the little hand appear, then click the left mouse button.) Go to page 3 and scroll down to line 68 on the form (Temporarily restricted).

Since the JREF is a non-profit organization, they must file a 990 form every year. Their reserved $1,000,000 is in bonds held by <a href="http://www.gs.com/">Goldman Sachs</a> which is as I gather, a reputable firm, unless you have heard otherwise. Since the prize is internationally known and publicized, if they did not pay, Lifewave would have grounds for a lawsuit. It would be an open and shut case. Also, think of the fame and notoriety. As I said before, that itself would be worth a lot more than $1,000,000.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the JREF did make a special exception for psychic Sylvia Browne by putting the prize in escrow when she agreed to take the Challenge on the Larry King Show. Even so, she still refused to be tested. I can't say I blame the JREF for not bothering to do that for everyone.

Able to fly:
If someone finds James Randi arrogant, I should think they would find it quite a thrill taking $1,000,000 from him.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 07:08 PM
DS

Oh dear!

Does just one foot fit in your mouth, or is it big enough for both plates of meat to fit in?

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 08:04 PM
Able to fly,

Your thoughts on Internet marketing make perfect sense. However, that's not what Lifewave is doing. They are selling by Multi Level Marketing. Sure a lot of their distributors are selling on the net but that is only a side effect.

I'm sure you know, a search will yield literally hundreds of websites selling Lifewave patches. How many sites do YOU need to sell your product?

Why doesn't Lifewave just market them exclusively on their own site and keep all the middleman fees for themselves? The distributorships are the real product here, not the patches.
Able to fly
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 08:51 PM
Captain Al

I can only assume that initially David Schmidt didn't have a clue how to market the patches and was failing miserably until one of his few original customers became successful in marketing them to College sports teams.

I got the impression from the DVD that network marketing (or MLM) wasn't actually his original idea it was someone elses.
Able to fly
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 | 09:11 PM
Captain Al you are certainly right about one thing .... I get more emails about how I could make money selling the patches than I do about the benefits or success of the patches themselves. I found that REALLY ANNOYING cause I don't need or want the business.

However I can't deny that plenty of companies get rich selling a business rather than a product. Look at Amway.

To be successful using MLM it would help if you started off with an exclusive product. I don't have that. If I did, I would probably have considered it. Then I would give lectures on how to be good at sales and I would make money out of the lectures and books instead of out of the product. 😊
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 | 12:02 AM
Captain Al said:

"Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the JREF did make a special exception for psychic Sylvia Browne by putting the prize in escrow when she agreed to take the Challenge on the Larry King Show. Even so, she still refused to be tested. I can't say I blame the JREF for not bothering to do that for everyone."

Yes, you are correct about that. Randi offered to let Larry King hold the money, but he never got a response to that offer from King or his people.

This charge that Randi doesn't have the money isn't new and it's VERY disingenuous. As you said, the information about where the money is is right on Randi's site. Randi has explained that, from time to time, the JREF will take some of the interest out of the account for expenses but at no time does the amount in the account fall below one million dollars.

Since the JREF is a 501(c)3 non-profit, it has to file annuanl reports with the IRS. Anyone who thinks that Randi doesn't have a million dollars in escrow should immediately contact the IRS to ask for a copy of JREF's filings. If you can prove that the escrow account doesn't exist, it would be the end of Randi's operation. I don't think he's going to lose any sleep worrying about that happening, though.

It's an old story: if you can't attack the argument, attack the man.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 | 12:12 AM
Able to fly said:

"Anyway any mention of Randi just annoys me. In almost every article I have read he is quoted calling someone a LIAR. That is a rather big accusation. Why would anyone bother to prove anything to this man? Not even $1,000,000.00 would be enough for me to put up with his arrogance."

It's amazing to me how thin-skinned people are, even when they stand to win a million dollars.

Personally, if I thought I possessed some amazing power which violated the known laws of physics, I wouldn't give a damn if Randi or anyone else called me a liar. I'd just take the test, win the money and laugh about the whole thing (while becoming a benefactor to mankind).

Time and time again we see people who are making unbelievable claims saying, "I'm not going to play Randi's game" or words to that effect. Uh huh. Wouldn't you think that, given the confidence in their product or "abilities" that they profess, they would want to take the test and rub their win into Randi's face? Amazingly, however, none of them seem to be motivated enough by that to actually take the test.

Again, for the record, I'll note that Randi takes NO part in the testing (except as an observer) and you have to agree to the protocols of the test prior to the start of the test. This stuff about how Randi will just screw you on the test somehow is simply ridiculous.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 | 12:18 AM
DS said:

"Again, the question is why won't JREF do it? They answer is obvious."

Yes, it IS obvious: you don't know what you're talking about.

On his website, randi.org, James Randi tells anyone who takes the time to read, exactly where the escrow account is. There's simply nothing hidden here.

If, despite this, you still believe that Randi is lying about having an escrow account with at least a million dollars in it, why don't you contact the authorities? Clearly you believe that Randi is committing a fraud here. If you sincerely believe what you are saying, it's your DUTY as a citizen to bring this to the attention of the authorities. Or do you know full well that the money IS in an escrow account and you're just full of shit?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 | 02:21 AM
Able to fly said:

"Those who agree with Randi really amaze me. Only a vain man could believe
that human beings are capable of proving all that exists and is real. WE
CAN NOT. Just yesterday I heard a comment on TV that human beings double
their knowledge every decade. So imagine how much we have yet to discover.
Does our ignorance PROVE anything doesn't exist?????.......NO IT DOESN'T.
Therefore regardless of how many times Randi may claim that failure to take
up or succeed in his challenge is proof that something doesn't exist is
simply nonsense and arrogance. All it proves is that it is yet to be proved
right and not that it has been proved wrong."

Utterly irrelevant. David Schmidt has made specific claims as to what his small adhesive plastic patches can do. All we are asking is PROVE IT! The fact that no one knows how everything in the universe works isn't relevant. We're asking that a person who has made claims for his product BACK THOSE CLAIMS UP UNDER CONTROLLED CONDITIONS. Period.

We aren't talking about whether Bigfoot or UFO's exist. We're only talking about proving or disproving the claims made for a specific product. Since David Schmidt says his product works thanks to "nanotechnology," you can't use the "who knows how they work?" thing. He says he DOES know. Let's test them.

Oh, another point. You've said a few times that the LifeWave patches may work because of the glue on them. First off, that isn't how their "inventor" says they work. Shouldn't he know?

Also, why are you trying to explain how their incredible ability to "increase energy" works when it has yet to be established that they have ANY ABILITY TO DO THAT AT ALL? Let's put them to a carefully designed double-blind test versus a lookalike placebo and determine whether they do anything at all before we start guessing how they do it.
hcmomof4
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 | 03:45 AM
I had been very successfully avoiding spending much time at the JREF site. Thank you so lousy much, Razela, for the link that broke my will.

From reading the Challenge Applications forum I have discovered one particularly invasive thought... I'll be spending too much time at the site now!

It did seem to me that Randi is a bit... uh...ummm... well... direct? no-nonsense? rude?... This is based on only one direct post, and just a few comments about him from others, so I know it's not really fair to judge, so I'm not. It's simply how he came across to me, based on very damn little input.

However, from reading through the current application logs, it seems to me that overall this is done very fairly. (Not "fairly" as in "so-so", but "fairly" as in "given every opportunity to succeed".) There are some rules which appear to be absolutely conformed to, (the use of one's legal name seems to be a deal-breaker for some people...) but really, it seems that the challenge facilitator goes overboard to make everything possible while staying within the guidelines.

If I had anything at all that would qualify me to become a millionaire at JREF, I wouldn't have any reservations.

I did notice a few refrences to Penn and Teller in connection with Randi. Forget the million $, I just want to meet them!
Super Cranky Media Girl
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 | 11:57 AM
Mr. Cranky,

"Have you seen some of the video on the site? How about the thing with Andy Kaufman? That's my favorite."
I have not. My laptop has some real problems with video. The picture comes in real slow and is horribly pixilated.

When will you post more?


I am super Cranky Media Girl!
On that Gravity thing though, I have tried gravity. By jumpimg, and falling.lol. But I guess what I am one of those try it and see it to believe it type.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 | 04:04 PM
How do you know it was gravity that made you fall? It could have been the Flying Spaghetti Monster pushing you down with his noodley appendage. As we keep saying, personal anecdotal evidence means nothing.
Able to fly
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 | 05:11 PM
Cranky Media Guy said:
"Let's put them to a carefully designed double-blind test versus a lookalike placebo and determine whether they do anything at all before we start guessing how they do it."

I would love some testing to be done. I have said that repeatedly. Since we all seem to agree that having the patches tested would be great, how about someone suggest who might be able to carry out these tests.

Or how about starting up a petition? Has anyone here ever used http://www.petitionspot.com before? I am assuming of course that there have genuinely been requests to see full testing results from David Schmidt in the past and he has not presented any (although I read somewhere that he has) for independant scrutiny. For those of us who genuinely want to know, rather than just waste time complaining why not get a petition going? Is anyone interested? If the wording is chosen carefully you may get all the Lifewavers to sign it also.
human being?
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 | 10:27 PM
Captain Al-
said:"How do you know it was gravity that made you fall?"

I think she meant that she fell, which could have been flying spaghetti monster pushing her, that gravity is the actual force that pulled her down. Well I believe scientists have proven that gravity is responsible for the force on an object falling to the ground. Which of course Gravity pulls. The monster is responsible for her fall, Gravity is responsible for pulling on her and landing on the ground.

Like I said, She has seen right through the Challenge. I for one have read the contract. Yeah, it is pretty much a set up for any challenger. Randi can say whether it was good or not, and obviously if a challenger wins the money then randi will look like a fool, and he doesn't seem like the type who likes to admit being wrong.

But can YOU or anyone for that matter say that it doesn't work. I mean Cranky Girl has a point.

Maybe there is no proof that there is anything that actually goes into the body, but maybe it's the sweat, that reacts with the patch, which then causes the affect. I mean you never know. I am obviously not a scientist, so that may or may not seem reasonable, but it's a thought.

Hey If ABLE TO FLY says it worked for her then maybe it did. But wouldn't you rather want to try them first before you start assuming. It's like saying you hate brocolli, even though you haven't tried it yet. (I hate that, my children do it all the time).
I am not saying that they work or not because I do not know, and have never tried them. But neither do you skeptics.

Cranky's Wife tried them and didn't work for her, well maybe some people have diff responses to it. Did she have it on right? How long did she wear it for? Was she expecting to have energy? Was the patch defective? Did she try more than just one and give it another chance? Was she influenced by "someone" to think it didn't work? Did she call lifewave and ask some questions regarding the way they didn't work for her?

Im in. let's do the petition.
I for one would love it if these patches work. More energy=More lovin=happy wife. lol.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 01:31 AM
human being said:

"Like I said, She has seen right through the Challenge. I for one have read the contract. Yeah, it is pretty much a set up for any challenger. Randi can say whether it was good or not, and obviously if a challenger wins the money then randi will look like a fool, and he doesn't seem like the type who likes to admit being wrong."

Completely wrong. If you bothered to actually READ the terms of the Challenge, you'd see (as has been repeatedly pointed out on this forum) that the terms of the Challenge have to be agreed to in advance by the claimant. Get that? You have to agree IN ADVANCE to the terms, meaning that you can't claim later that you didn't know what would constitute a "win."

Also, by agreement, the outcome of the Challenge has to be clear; it has to be something that doesn't require "reading between the lines." You guys keep trying to claim that Randi can screw a winner out of the money, but that clearly is NOT true, as per the agreement.

Are you going to next claim (yet again) that the money doesn't exist?

Tell you what: if you honestly believe that the million dollars is NOT being held in an account, you have the obligation as a citizen to report this to the IRS and the FBI. After all, Randi has said on radio and TV and in print on many occasions that he has a million dollars available to anyone who wins the Challenge. If you sincerely believe he is lying (as some of you have said), you MUST immediately contact the FBI and IRS to report this.

If you are correct, you will have exposed a fraud involving not only a non-profit organization but also a Wall Street firm which is conspiring with Randi to lie about the existance of the million dollars. The public should not be deceived like this, therefore you HAVE to alert the authorities immediately to this conspiracy.

After you have done your civic duty, will you please paste the text of the emails you send to the FBI and IRS here so we can all read them? I trust you will take action on this immediately.

"Maybe there is no proof that there is anything that actually goes into the body, but maybe it's the sweat, that reacts with the patch, which then causes the affect. I mean you never know. I am obviously not a scientist, so that may or may not seem reasonable, but it's a thought."

Although you admit you are not a scientist, you apparently think you know more about how the LifeWave patches "work" than their "inventor" does. He says it's "nanotechnology." You think it might be the glue even though David Schmidt says NOTHING enters the human body from the patches. So, how did you come to know more about the patches than their inventor does? Please illuminate us all.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 02:00 AM
hcmomof4 said"

"I did notice a few refrences to Penn and Teller in connection with Randi. Forget the million $, I just want to meet them!"

P & T and Randi are good friends. I don't know if this is still true, but at one point Penn and Teller were the largest donors to the JREF Challenge Fund. In fact, they pledged to DOUBLE the then-largest donation.

If you're serious about wanting to meet them, you might want to consider attending Randi's Amaz!ng Meeting, held next January in Las Vegas. The details are on his site. Penn and Teller will be there; in fact, there is a Brunch at Teller's house for people who make a donation of a certain size (I don't know how much that is, though. You'll have to check randi.org).
hcmomof4
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 02:39 AM
CMG,
Thanks. I was incredibly happier before I discovered what I was gonna miss.
hcmomof4
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 02:42 AM
Perhaps if someone would send me some patches to try for myself, I'd find that they work so well that I'd become a distributor, and get rich like all the other distributors. Plus, with the added energy I'd have, I could work more and save up more money.

Hell, if David Schmidt wants to pay my way, I'll go as a spy...
Able to fly
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 07:10 AM
Cranky Media Guy, I know that "the terms of the Challenge have to be agreed to in advance by the claimant." I also know from reading the site that most applicants don't agree with the terms offered by JREF for the challenge and it never gets to the testing stage.

""Mutually agreed upon" means that neither side can force the other side into doing or saying something that they don't want to, and that if no agreement can be reached, the application process is terminated, with no blame or fault attributed to either side." This statement suggests that neither JREF nor the applicants are to be blamed if the challenge application is terminated. So why does anyone blame David Schmidt or Dr Haltiwanger?

Now, what are your thoughts on having a petition? If you are interested you are welcome to suggest how it might be worded.
Joe
Member
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 11:48 AM
I find it sad that we have to petition a company to do something that they should be doing or should have done 4 years ago. Just my thought. I'm all up for creating an uproar (skeptics and distributors together), but I don't think it will do anything, because unless we affect David Schmidt's bottom line, nothing will be done.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 02:10 PM
Able to fly said:

"Cranky Media Guy, I know that "the terms of the Challenge have to be agreed to in advance by the claimant." I also know from reading the site that most applicants don't agree with the terms offered by JREF for the challenge and it never gets to the testing stage."

I'm not looking at the terms at the moment, but yeah, you do have to agree to the conditions that you have to meet to win the Challenge in advance.

As for why people might call the deal off before they get to the actual test, gee, could it be that a lot of them are scam artists who realize that they aren't going to get away with BS?

So, are we still claiming that Randi doesn't have the money? Have you reported him to the FBI and IRS yet? If not, why not? Are you willing to sit back and allow a crime to continue (which IS what must be happening if you truly believe Randi has lied about having a million dollars)? When will we get to see the text of your communication with the federal authorities?

I'm serious about this. You have made a serious charge. Are you going to back it up or will you admit that you don't know what you're talking about and have slandered Randi?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 02:12 PM
hcmomof4 said:

"CMG,
Thanks. I was incredibly happier before I discovered what I was gonna miss."

That's me, just a little ray of sunshine.
Coops
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 02:55 PM
I received a set of patches a while ago. So I Googled around a bit and found this forum. I read ALL the pages and added my contributions which seemed logical with all this clear resoning and I became a "NAY" sayer.

Lifewavers say "just try it". I examined the newer pages as well as the simple patches for about a week and a half and still remained a "NAY" sayer. I mean how could these things possibly work. One day I stuck them on, brown on the left and white on the right, after 3 - 4 hours later I definitly felt "better". I did not want the patches to work, after all I am one of the "NAY" sayers right? But I must truly say I felt energetic. 7 hours later the patches were dry which leads me to reason that they ARE transdermal and that these chemicals were realeased into my body. I believe I was drugged.

I used "Sperilina" for about 3 months and never felt anything like the patches. I still remain a NAY sayer in regard to the way they say the patches work (cel phone theory) There's just too many users who say "just try it" for them not to work. I think they were drugged too. Smoke-enders use the necotine patches to assist them to quit smoking, trandermal right?

"I can fly" says her X husband will be comming to see her soon and that he will be able to test these patches. Nano-technology, NO!!

Just for the record I don't plan to use them or to sell them.

I was drugged, I am still a NAY sayer
Able to fly
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 03:01 PM
Cranky Media Guy WHAT FANTASY WORLD ARE YOU LIVING IN? WHERE HAVE I ACCUSED RANDI OF NOT HAVING THE MONEY? SHOW ME A POST OR A DOCUMENT WHERE I HAVE SAID THIS?

I have asked twice now if you would be interested in a petition and instead you want to make up stuff to argue about. Are you on this forum just to annoy people? I once thought you were serious about your concerns about Lifewave. Now I see you are here JUST TO PROMOTE JREF. The real HOAX here is YOU.

DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF THINGS I DID NOT SAY. To think that YOU have the NERVE to even mention SLANDER.
Able to Fly
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 03:10 PM
Coops...I doubt that my ex-husband would have the equipment to measure genuine increases in human energy. He is in a different scientific field.

Other than testing improvements in performance does anyone know of a way of testing Energy Increases?
Able to fly
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 03:34 PM
I propose a petition requesting that David Schmidt make available for the Lifewave distributors, their potential customers and for the sceptics, full details including both the methods used for testing and all data collected, as well as details of who conducted the experiment of the Double Blind Plecebo Controlled experiment that his website refers to.

If you are interested in such a petition or if you know of how to access this information please advise.

Several people have not only suggested that the Lifewave patches are a HOAX but have actually stated that they are on this forum. Attempts have been made to defame both David Schmidt and Dr Haltiwanger. These accusations need to be backed up or they are SLANDEROUS.

This forum is not just a place to play with words. It has the potential to effect the livelihoods of a number of people. We have all had the opportunity here to state our opinion, but I have been told that opinions mean "nothing". So how about we stop wasting time and ask to see the results of the Double Blind Pacebo Controlled test that was done by two Universities.
human being?
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 05:38 PM
CrankyMediaGuy-

Are you serious? You are also saying that I don't think he has the money. HMMM... Like ABLE TO FLY said. You are living in a fantasy world.
Yeah they do have to agree in advance, so what, that doesn't mean that they can't be screwed out of the money. That's the whole screw right there, Trying to prevent people to agree to it. His contract really makes people want to walk away. Because it's really like the challengers not in control of their "powers", if they have any.

Anyway, I will go ahead and repeat this:

"Cranky's Wife tried them and didn't work for her, well maybe some people have diff responses to it. Did she have it on right? How long did she wear it for? Was she expecting to have energy? Was the patch defective? Did she try more than just one and give it another chance? Was she influenced by "someone" to think it didn't work? Did she call lifewave and ask some questions regarding the way they didn't work for her?"

Here is an add on. Did cranky's wife really try the patches? or are we being BSed by Cranky?
Some people say that personal experience doesn't matter. Well it looks like Cranky's wifes experience doesn't matter either.

That's right, I did say I am not a scientist. But perhaps nanotechnology is really just a cover up by David to confuse competitors, and that he knows it's really done in a diff way.
WHO KNOWS?
IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT:
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 05:42 PM
http://www.quikonnex.com/channel/item/13007

"A double blind placebo controlled study of the LifeWave
IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT:
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 05:43 PM
http://quikonnex.com/channel/item/13007
"Abstract

The LifeWave
IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT:
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 05:45 PM
http://quikonnex.com/channel/item/13007
"Metabolism and ATP production

It is well known that in humans in order for locomotion to occur ATP must be available to the muscle as well as all other cells. The biochemistry of metabolism is centered in the synthesis of carbohydrates, fats, proteins and nucleic acids. For the purpose of this discussion we shall concern ourselves primarily with the metabolism, utilization and transport of fats as they pertain to the production of ATP.

In carbohydrate metabolism that involves the glycolysis of glucose molecules to pyruvic acid for the purpose of feeding the Krebs Cycle with high-energy molecules, a process called chemiosmosis is used to pump protons across a membrane and provide the energy for ATP synthesis. The electron carrying coenzyme molecules from the Krebs Cycle enter the chemiosmosis process, the electrons are lost from the coenzymes, the energy is used to pump protons across the mitochondrial membrane, and as the protons flow to the outer compartment of the mitochondrion the energy from the electron flow is used to synthesize ATP molecules.

In contrast, in the metabolism of fats
IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT:
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 05:47 PM
http://quikonnex.com/channel/item/13007
"LifeWave
IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT:
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 | 05:49 PM
http://quikonnex.com/channel/item/13007
Context:

At the time prior to the beginning of this study the relationship between the LifeWave
Page 20 of 99 pages ‹ First  < 18 19 20 21 22 >  Last ›

 Note: This thread is located in the Old Forum of the Museum of Hoaxes.