The Museum of Hoaxes
LifeWave Energy Patches
Posted By:
Fawkes
Feb 24, 2005
 Now you can get more energy from a patch! I especially like the way that
they "believe" that it works. It is also based on years of research from
many fields. While the research may be valid, I'm not sure that their
results were intended to be used with a "patent pending blend of water,
oxygen, amino acids and organics applied to a polyester fabric and sealed
within a polymer shell".

http://www.contactplus.com/lifewave.htm

We can finally have our super-soldiers now!
Category: Health; Replies: 5918

Comments
Page 18 of 99 pages ‹ First  < 16 17 18 19 20 >  Last ›
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 | 06:22 PM
Able to fly

You have certainly been busy on the posting front. Presumably, if you have read the posts from the beginning you will have seen a pattern of people who appear, make various claims, statements, then post how they have been insulted, are disappointed, feel sorry for, can't believe why anyone would read such ignorance etc.

When I first started posting as a result of a personal contact with the LifeWave "phenomenon" I tended to tip toe through people's postings. Since then, I freely admit, my level of frustration at how anyone can be hoodwinked by this company has grown.

I believe most people who post questions are focusing on the circles of plastic.

I have posted, many times, that I think there probably are genuine people who believe there is an effect and want to share that benefit. I also believe there are out and out crooks who will do/say anything in order to get a sale.

In response to me being"rude" you obviously haven't paid attention to some of the previous comments about LifeWavers. I think you have been treated with great respect.

Just because I stated you might be able to fly but not think says nothing about you as a person or your IQ. It does imply that I think, on this single occasion, I firmly believe you have been conned, scammed, had, hoodwinked. You state that you don't really care if you have.

I DO care that there are other people out there who are/will be scammed and who didn't see it coming. What happens to those people who come to believe the patches are the answer to a prayer? Where will they turn when the company goes bust? Will you be there to help them out?

?
Joe
Member
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 | 07:28 PM
I'm disappointed with the substance too. Mainly the big results of the Lifewave conference that have never been revealed. Anyone got anything from that conference that would shed some light?
Rolan Doobies
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 | 09:14 PM
Able to fly said

"So I will keep it simple. Can you buy Amway cleaning products in Walmart/Zellers/K-mart/GNC/ETC? Do Amway cleaning products work?"

No you can't, but then again there are thousands of products that do what amway does.

I wonder how gasoline would sell via MLM?
Able to fly
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 | 09:27 PM
EDHUK said:
"What happens to those people who come to believe the patches are the answer to a prayer? Where will they turn when the company goes bust? Will you be there to help them out?"

If the people believe they are experiencing more energy than maybe the patches are the answer to their prayers, even if it is only a placebo.

When the company goes bust what exactly will they need help with? The only thing that may get hurt is their ego. If they have purchased a lot of patches without ever having tried them before then they probably aren't too careful with their money anyway and don't really care. If they tried them first (anyone can apply for free samples) then they must believe they work or why would they buy them. It is not like you have to invest your money. You simply purchase what you want and if you choose you can have your stock topped up on a regular basis. There is no pressure to purchase. What aspect of the distribution concerns you?

I just can't understand what exactly you object to. Do you object to the circles of plastic or the MLM scheme? Just because you suspect the circles of plastic are a hoax doesn't mean that they are. You haven't proved they are, you just haven't seen scientific proof that they are genuine. It has been mentioned that the claims are extraordinary, but at least the public are givn the opportunity to try the patches first and decide for themselves.

In Australia Red Bull is advertised as "Red Bull Gives You Wings!". Maybe you should focus your energy on claims that can easily be proven wrong. I've tried the drink and I haven't been given wings. Imagine all those poor little kids who believe that they only have to drink it and they can fly. What if a child injures themselves?

With all the outrageous claims that are made in marketing, why on earth are you focusing your energy on some plastic patches that aren't going to hurt anyone?
hcmomof4
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 02:37 AM
able to fly said, "My friend was not likely to send the patches to me if he considered them harmfull, and he assured me he was very sceptical"

Your friend is correct that the patches aren't harmful. A product must actually do something in order to cause harm. I really have to doubt the skeptic-ness of the friend however...

It occured to me the other day... This is how LifeWave says the patches might work: "are capable of passively communicating with the user to instruct or initiate various metabolic responses in the user.".

If I buy them cheap, say through EBay, what if I get a set of patches that communicate in Chinese or German? :ohh:
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 04:44 AM
Able to fly said:

"Hey Cranky Media Guy you are right, I am not a "dumb guy" I am a smart girl. However the truth is that I don't feel everything has to be proved by scientific research (even though the father of my children is a research scientist)."

I'm curious, how does your baby daddy feel about you being so accepting of the unproven?

"Scientific research is not always about SEEKING THE TRUTH but more likely SEEKING THE FUNDING, which would explain to me why a university is not likely to endorse a product unless they have something to gain."

Well, what in life is ALWAYS about a given thing? Besides, what does this have to do with the scientific method? If a university requires funding to be able to perform tests on something, in your mind does that somehow automatically throw out the results of that testing? What sense does that make?

"I am happy to accept proof that lifewave works by wearing the patches and seeing if I feel more energetic. I realise that it is not equal to a controlled experiment, but I trust myself to be a good enough judge of what I should spend my money on."

If you taped a Lego block to your arm and happened to have a good day tomorrow, I guess that would "prove" that the Lego was the cause, huh?

No one said you couldn't spend your money as you wish, but don't you think that things should perform as advertised? If not, where would the line be then? Would it be OK with you if I advertised plain tap water as a cancer cure? No need for controlled testing, right?

"When I came to this forum and found over 50 pages of posts I thought that someone must have proved that the patches were a hoax. However all I have found on here are suspicions and often insults, not just directed at David Schmidt, but at anyone who DARES to suggest that the patches work."

Do I really need to remind you that the burden of proof is on those who claim that small adhesive plastic patches can do things which seem to violate everything we know about physics and biology? If you believe they work as advertised, then just PROVE IT! There's a million dollars out there for you to take if you can.

"I don't believe everything in life requires proof. I may not believe in God but I do believe in ghosts. I can't prove they exist but I know I have encountered one particular ghost at least twice now."

May I ask how you can be certain it was the same ghost both times? Did he/she show you a driver's license or something?

So you don't believe in God but you DO believe in an afterlife? Interesting. Who's running that operation?

"I can rationalise my belief by arguing that if all energy is constant, then a ghost may simply be the energy of a human that has not been reassigned to a new form yet. However I can't imagine what kind of scientific research would be required to prove this."

The key part of that paragraph is "I can rationalize my belief." Yes, you can and, apparently, you DO.

"The testimonials of so many who claim to benefit from wearing the patches may not be adequate for you to believe the patches work. However it should suggest that it is more likely that they do work than that they don't."

Why? History has many examples of people believing things which were subsequently proven not to be true. What we have here is little plastic patches which, according to the manufacturer, do NOT transmit anything into the human body but do somehow, in some mysterious "nanotechnological" way, transmit radio waves or SOMETHING to an otherwise-undiscovered part of the body which responds to such things and induce energy into the body. Wow! Pardon me, but if you believe this twaddle, PROVE IT.

Continued...
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 04:45 AM
Continued...

"The claims may appear to be extraordinary, but not as extraordinary as some claims that mankind have come to just accept without proof."

So? Your "argument" here seems to be that the LifeWave patches may be bullshit but there is bigger bullshit out there so they just might work. Poor reasoning.

"I take the stand that unless something is harming someone it is not my place to object to it."

How do you know that LifeWave isn't harming anyone? They're certainly taking money from people under false pretenses. Doesn't THAT count as "harming them?"

"Man can't prove that God exists, but man also can't prove that God doesn't exist. So when faced with a threat, even the most sceptical people will resort to praying. It can't hurt now can it? ...... well neither will the patches."

Again, poor reasoning. It's the old "no atheists in a foxhole" argument. I think there's also a little bit of Pascal's Wager thrown in as well.

Hey, how about the fact that surrendering your mind to the nonsense of religion may harm you for life? One of the things I'm most proud of about myself is that I figured out early in life that the Catholic Church was at best self-contradictory and at worst, complete nonsense. Of course believing in bullshit can hurt you. Ever heard of Heaven's Gate? How about Scientology?

What's the point of having a brain if you aren't going to use it to at least TRY to come up with your own answers in life?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 04:57 AM
Able to fly said:

"In Australia Red Bull is advertised as "Red Bull Gives You Wings!". Maybe you should focus your energy on claims that can easily be proven wrong. I've tried the drink and I haven't been given wings. Imagine all those poor little kids who believe that they only have to drink it and they can fly. What if a child injures themselves?"

This is, to be charitable, one of the silliest things I have ever seen. Apparently, for some reason, you have an emotional (or financial) investment in wanting LifeWave to get away with making claims that they cannnot back up.

Red Bull uses the same slogan in the U.S. No reasonable person could successfully argue in a court of law that they sincerely thought that Red Bull would put wings on their body. They would be laughed out of court. On the other hand, LifeWave goes to great lengths to "back up" their claims that the little plastic patches somehow work like a cell phone to induce energy into a human body.

That isn't a silly little advertising slogan; it's the core of their claims about their product. They've gone so far as to claim that specific organizations and universities endorse their twaddle.

I'm just wondering what you'll say when LifeWave is forced off the market by the government. Will it be the "conspiracy" argument? Yup, everyone is out to get LifeWave.

Those of us who have even a passing interest in scams like this have seen this pathetic procession of events before. Crying "conspiracy" is the last refuge of the scammer.

I'll say it again: If you believe that little plastic patches can give a human body more energy under controlled conditions, PROVE IT!
Able to fly
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 06:39 AM
Cranky Media Guy said:
"May I ask how you can be certain it was the same ghost both times? Did he/she show you a driver's license or something?"

As this isn't a forum about ghosts I will try to keep this brief (but it won't be easy). I had never met the girl when she was alive, I only knew of her, yet on two occassions I sensed she was in my room at night shortly after she died and I was too scared to look. I neither saw her nor heard her voice, but for some reason I felt she was trying to tell me something about her brother who was a friend of a friend of mine. Both messages came true and ended up bringing her brother and I together. We are still very close friends today.

Throughout my life I have received what seems to be a number of messages from people who have died. I knew exactly the moment that a previous boyfriend's father died. Another time a friend who had died months earlier seemed to be insisting that I go to her daughter's school and check on her, and sure enough I found her daughter was a complete mess as the loss of her mother had only just really hit her.

I can't prove that these were ghosts talking to me, but I also can't think of an alternative explanation. I really wish I could because the idea of dead people watching me or talking to me is quite scary.

Anyway.... back to LifeWave.
Able to fly
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 07:20 AM
Cranky Media Guy said:
"I'm curious, how does your baby daddy feel about you being so accepting of the unproven?"

I'll ask my ex-husband when he visits Australia in mid December. Maybe he could test the patches for me. However, working in R&D he first comes up with a theory and then sets out to prove it. To some degree, the fact that he is bothering to prove it shows some degree of "accepting the unproven" or he wouldn't waste his time. Sometimes in science one can see the results, but we can't always work out why we get these results (I've also studied science at University but I certainly don't claim to be an expert and have never worked in R&D).

Those saying the Lifewave theory is impossible, could you please explain your background in Science so that those who read this forum can decide if they think you might know what you are talking about, or if nanotechnology might be just a little too advanced for you to comprehend.

Even if the Lifewave theory on how the patches work is proven to be impossible, it is still possible that the patches do work. It might be as simple as the glue from the patches irritating (or stimulating) a nerve that results in an adrenalin rush.

Since there are thousands of people claiming that they have felt more energetic when wearing the patches, maybe the question isn't if they work but simply how they work. Maybe it is a mild form of acupressure. In the end, if people are feeling more energetic then at least they are getting what they paid for.

Here's an idea, if anyone has tried the patches and felt more energetic but wasn't really sure that they believe they work, try sticking bandaids on our acupressure points and see what happens. If the patches have a greater effect than the bandaids then buy the patches. If the bandaids are equal then you can buy bandaids instead (for a lot less money) and be sure to tell all your friends to try it also.
Able to fly
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 07:36 AM
Cranky Media Guy said:
"Hey, how about the fact that surrendering your mind to the nonsense of religion may harm you for life? One of the things I'm most proud of about myself is that I figured out early in life that the Catholic Church was at best self-contradictory and at worst, complete nonsense. Of course believing in bullshit can hurt you. Ever heard of Heaven's Gate? How about Scientology?"

I agree that religion can harm you, but in some ways it has become a necessary evil. It is true that it is often used for manipulation and for those not able to accept full resposibilty for their actions. However religion can also (and more often is) a deterrent from wrongdoings.

A similar example is politics. I know that a good deal of what politicians tell us is utter rubbish, but come election time I will still vote. Not one party has the whole package that I would like, but in the end we have to make the most out of the rubbish that we have to sift through. Without politicians we would have utter chaos.
MFM
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 09:44 AM
<a href="http://www.randi.org/jr/050605free.html#3">http://www.randi.org/jr/050605free.html#3</a>
<a href="http://www.randi.org/jr/052705a.html#5">http://www.randi.org/jr/052705a.html#5</a>
<a href="http://www.randi.org/jr/061005smug.html#11">http://www.randi.org/jr/061005smug.html#11</a>
SuperMonroe, CSCS
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 10:34 AM
<quote=MFM>http://www.randi.org/jr/050605free.html#3
http://www.randi.org/jr/052705a.html#5
http://www.randi.org/jr/061005smug.html#11</quote>;

Indeed. Shady business practices don't help their credibility.
Human Being or am I?
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 11:52 AM
Able To Fly-

AMEN!

You make a really good point. If they are getting what they paid for then it's not a problem. Even if it is a scam.

Cranky asked how you believe in the afterlife but not god. How is that? But that should be on another forum.

Anyway, Let's put it this way.
Lifewave is fake-People are feeling the rush that they insure-So they are satisfied-does it matter?
Lifewave is real-People are feeling the rush that it insures-So they are satisfied- GREAT!
Lifewave is real-people aren't feeling the rush that was insured- Hey at least they can say they tried it, and made your own conclusions.

If lifewave patches aren't real then people will find out and stop buying them.That means that lifewave will lose money. If the people are satisfied with the product then so be it, they can be the source of business for lifewave.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 02:40 PM
Able to fly

When the company goes bust what exactly will they need help with? The only thing that may get hurt is their ego.

I'm sorry I didn't get my point across to you. There are genuine people out there who will be taken in by this scam product. They may get an effect, energy, call it what you will. When the company goes bust is that the end of the story? Hard luck? Now go and find something else to fill the void?

I feel that if a company builds up people's expectations they should deliver,and, all things being equal continue to deliver.

In LifeWave's case it is obviously more complex. They don't have a genuine product. They have had over four years to prove they do without a single positive result.

Am I misunderstanding your point of view? Do you believe that it it OK to form a limited liablility company, come up with a fake product, sell it on the internet without any form of bona fide testing, and then walk away with the money?

I hope there was nothing in my words for you to take offense to. It really is not my intent to offend anyone. I continue to follow with great interest the reasoning of anyone who believes in this scam.

*
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 02:43 PM
Human being said:

"If lifewave patches aren't real then people will find out and stop buying them.That means that lifewave will lose money. If the people are satisfied with the product then so be it, they can be the source of business for lifewave."

So, I take it you don't think the government should intervene in this matter at all, even if the claims made for LifeWave are completely spurious. I've asked this before: where do you draw the line on this? How about if I advertise a car as getting 60 MPG when it doesn't? According to your logic, so what, right? People will eventually find out that I lied and they will stop buying the car. So what if I take their money under false pretenses? Last time I checked, that was a crime.

I also asked about whether it would be OK or not if I sold plain tap water as a cancer cure. After all, some people will almost certainly say that their cancer WAS cured by my fake "cure." As for the rest, well, they'll find out in time that I lied and will stop buying my water, right?

Since when did it become OK to defraud people out of their money? Do you REALLY believe that anything at all should go in business with NO regard to morality?
Able to fly
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 07:49 PM
Human being or am I? said:
"Cranky asked how you believe in the afterlife but not god. How is that?"

I believe energy is constant but its form changes. So when a person dies their energy finds a new form. Until it does it is effectively a ghost.

What fascinates me about science and why I chose to study it is that there is so much that we don't know, can't understand and are not yet able to prove. Attributing all that man can't control or understand to a God is not only too easy but also a sign of how incredibly vain man is.

In the same way, some people will quickly label something a HOAX if they don't understand it.

I accept that there are some questionable marketing techniques being used by Lifewave. Thank you to those who monitor this sort of behaviour and spend their time and energy putting a stop to it.

However, I am not yet convinced that the little plastic patches don't work. I'm not suggesting that nanotechnology is necessarily the reason, but the simple fact remains that there are plenty of intelligent people who claim to benefit from wearing them. Maybe the patches interact with acupoints in a way that not even David Schmidt is aware of. Maybe it is the glue.

My objection to some of the comments on this forum is due to the personal attacts and the suggestion that you would have to be stupid to believe the patches work. I know I am not stupid and yet I did benefit from wearing the patches. It may have been psychological and if someone could prove to me that there is no other explanation then I would be more than willing to accept that was the case.
Able to fly
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 08:02 PM
A question for all those who claim the patches are a hoax:

If the appropriate testing was carried out and it was proven that the patches DO work, will you be disappointed? Will you be embarrassed in the same way you expect the Lifewavers to be embarrassed if it is proven it is a hoax? Will you regret some of your posts?
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 08:59 PM
Able to fly

If LifeWave were able to satisfy the simplest of correctly conducted verifiable and repeatable trials it would mean a few things.

David Schmidt would indeed have heralded a new age in science with his amazing discovery. He would most certainly, in a few years time, see his name on the list for Nobel Prizes.

He could re-apply to James Randi for the million dollar challenge (but this time actually do the test and not back out like last time). He would, of course, be confident in the knowledge that he would win the money.

I would not be at all disappointed or embarrassed. I would however be wondering why David Schmidt had chosen to wait four years to demonstrate to the world his research and his findings. I would also wonder why on earth he associated himself with some questionable people in his business.

As for you, personally, getting benefit from the patches. I have posted previously details of the recent exciting research in the US into the placebo effect and pain control. The fact that adults experienced genuine, verifiable pain control with a placebo (saline drip) is astonishing. Just because I suggest you may be experiencing a placebo effect does not suggest any effect is just imagined, in your head. You may well have experienced a boost in energy, but one directed by your own powerful thoughts and their effect on your body.

There is much research and written word about intelligent people falling for scams. It seems counter intuitive, but it happens on a regular basis in all walks of life. Even if it turns out you have fallen for a scam, you will be amongst very good company.

I will not regret any of my posts. It doesn't cost anything but time to read them. People can agree or not but hopefully will think about the points raised.

As I have also stated previously, I will congratulate David Schmidt and wish him well if this scam MLM turns out to defy all logic, all reasonable standards and is the real deal.

Do I think the chances are good that this will happen..........?

I repectfully submit NO to that question.

*
Joe
Member
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 09:06 PM
I don't think any of the people would be disappointed. Most of the posts have to do with backing up claims. If Lifewave backs it up, then our cries of foul play have been resolved. We don't stand to lose anything from not participating. If the opposite were true, distributors could lose their main source of income that they rely on because they quit their normal jobs. People will lose friends and business associates.

It is like the Jerry Springer show. Should we applaud a guy that says he takes care of his kids or is that expected of a father? Should we applaud Lifewave and feel embarassed of our claims or is that expected of Lifewave to prove their claims?
Able to fly
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 | 11:40 PM
EDHUK and Joe

Thanks for your response.

I hope you understand that I DON'T think you should be embarrased about wanting to stop a scam. I just wanted to point out that like you, the Lifewavers are simply doing what they feel is their job in defending the patches and saying they work. There may be a few who don't believe the patches work and are just in it for the money, but surely that isn't the norm.

If the focus of this forum remains on facts, reports and experiences and refrains from unecessary insults, belittling and abuse then your quest to enlighten people may be better received. Just as you are proud of what you are doing, there are also a lot of sincere Lifewavers who are proud that they are distributing the patches and helping people.

Thank you to those who have posted links to articles. I look forward to reading more and watching the situation unfold.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 01:12 AM
Able to fly:

"If the appropriate testing was carried out and it was proven that the patches DO work, will you be disappointed? Will you be embarrassed in the same way you expect the Lifewavers to be embarrassed if it is proven it is a hoax? Will you regret some of your posts?"

Speaking for myself, I would be greatly surprised. I would also be happy for mankind because we will have learned something amazing about the world around us.

Would I apologize? Sure, why not? My skepticism about LifeWave is based on what we currently know about physics and anatomy; if it turns out I'm wrong, I'd be more than happy to admit that.

Whatever embarassment I might feel would be more than offset by the quantum leap in knowledge we would all have.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 01:22 AM
Able to fly said:

"I believe energy is constant but its form changes. So when a person dies their energy finds a new form. Until it does it is effectively a ghost."

What a lovely belief. Now what you need to do if you expect anyone to share it with you is PROVE IT.

"What fascinates me about science and why I chose to study it is that there is so much that we don't know, can't understand and are not yet able to prove."

That of course does not in any way prove that a given claim IS true.

"However, I am not yet convinced that the little plastic patches don't work. I'm not suggesting that nanotechnology is necessarily the reason, but the simple fact remains that there are plenty of intelligent people who claim to benefit from wearing them. Maybe the patches interact with acupoints in a way that not even David Schmidt is aware of. Maybe it is the glue."

The problem is that David Schmidt DOES claim that they work because of "nanotechnology." Of course, he is using that word in a completely nonsensical way but that's his claim. Isn't it fair to test a product based on the claims made by the manufacturer? Isn't that, in fact, the FAIREST way to test a product?

Why are you trying to come up with ways they MIGHT work when there is no evidence they work at all (other than the placebo effect)? How about if we first establish whether they work at all before we try to figure out HOW they work?
hcmomof4
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 03:16 AM
Able to fly asked:
If the appropriate testing was carried out and it was proven that the patches DO work, will you be disappointed?

My answer:
Heck no! I don't think anyone here is against advances in modern science. Or even, were it possible to perform (with provable, consistent results), witch doctoring. Most of the arguments have to do with the lack of proof. Especially when the lack is accompanied by loud shouting about the tons of proof being (not) provided.

I offered to try the patches myself. Not even to "dis-prove" them, (my father always taught me "you can't prove a negative") but mostly out of curiousity. After reading probably every post on this board, and WWSN's site, and LifeWave's site, and commenting myself here, would I still feel a placebo effect? If I did, could I make myself unfeel it? If the patches did "work" for me, I'd probably try very hard to convince myself that the desired effect of them was really to burn off calories, control appetite, and tone muscles, all without any extra effort on my part. And if this were achieved, I'd happily become a distributor. I'd advertise that applying these patches, combined with really believing it was true, would allow the wearer to make themselves be a real little bo...oops, that was Pinocchio...
Able to fly
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 06:51 AM
Cranky Media Guy said:
"Why are you trying to come up with ways they MIGHT work when there is no evidence they work at all (other than the placebo effect)? How about if we first establish whether they work at all before we try to figure out HOW they work?"

So how did you come to the conclusion that the effect is a placebo effect? Is it really just too difficult for you to accept that there are things in life that may be beyond your comprehension. Well then for the sake of the thousands who claim that the patches did work for them could you please PROVE that it is a placebo (or is that impossible to prove)?

You remind me of the doctor that tried to tell me that I had a "Phantom" pregnancy just because he found no sign of a fetus in the D&C. Imagine the look on his face when I told him to check with the hospital ultrasound records that clearly showed a heartbeat of a fetus only weeks earlier. He told me that was impossible. Well he was wrong.

Due to problems with an earlier pregnancy my regular doctor ordered an Ultrasound very early in the pregnancy. Not only did they confirm that I was pregnant but they said all looked really good. A was then refered to an Obstetrician to take over the pre-natal care. I kept telling him something didn't feel right, so he sent me to have an Ultrasound (he didn't know I had one only weeks earlier) to "put [my] mind at ease". There was no heartbeat. A D&C followed and there was no sign of a fetus.

Can you imagine how many woman have gone through life wondering what caused them to have a "Phantom" pregnancy. It just hadn't occured to doctors before that it was a misscarriage. Somehow the fetus was reabsorbed but the uterus kept growing. Now thanks to Ultrasound the Doctors know more and the woman don't have to go through life thinking they must have been crazy.

What makes more sense to you:

That thousands of people feel more energetic just because they were expecting to when they tried the patches

or

That thousands of people do feel better when they wear the patches but we haven't yet worked out exactly why?

In Science theories come first...the quest for proof comes as a result. You seem to be approaching science the wrong way around.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 11:06 AM
Able to Fly

You appear to be defending LifeWave patches to the extent that I wonder who you really are.

Are you involved at the highest level with LifeWave?

We seem to be going around in circles but coming back to your point that somehow it's OK to bring out a product without any proof of efficacy, or that the product does no harm, and sell it on the internet with various "endorsements" that tell us to buy.

If I start posting under many different names that I have tried the patches and experienced nothing except a hole in my wallet, will my opinion mean anything? I think not. If I state I tried the patches and developed cancer and would be suing LifeWave would David Schmidt be worried? I don't think so, because if such a case ever got to court he could PROVE that his patches are placebo's and therefore I could NOT have developed cancer by wearing the patches.

Why should the rules that apply to other businesses have to be put aside for lifeWave? Why are they a "special case"?

Anybody?
Joe
Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 11:21 AM
For someone that sounds very intelligent, I would think you would know that the burden of proof is on Lifewave, not the skeptics.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 12:14 PM
Able to fly said:

"In Science theories come first...the quest for proof comes as a result. You seem to be approaching science the wrong way around."

You don't seem to be approaching science at all. Scientists use the word "theory" in a different context than the general public which often take it to mean "imperfect fact". A scientific theory is a set of ideas that explain and interpret facts. In science, the hypothesis comes first, then experimentation, then the theory that explains the facts (if the hypothesis was correct).

Lifewave's website explains the "theory" of their patches. Have you even read it? This "theory" was arrived at with a bogus hypothesis (resonant energy transfer to the body's magnetic field, FM transmission to cells, etc.) and no experimentation (he appears to have no research facility). No one denies a lot of people claim to feel more energetic when wearing the patches. However, Lifewave has failed to show it is anything more than a placebo effect.

Given the junk science behind Lifewave patches and the fact their inventor has no scientific background whatsoever, you tell us what makes the most sense.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 12:42 PM
"Maybe the patches interact with acupoints in a way that not even David Schmidt is aware of. Maybe it is the glue."

That thousands of people do feel better when they wear the patches but we haven't yet worked out exactly why?"

Let me see if I have this right. David Schmidt sets out to develop an energy enhancing patch using nanotechnology. He fails. Fortunately however, the patches actually do work but for a reason unknown to their inventor or science. If this were true, it would be a fluke on an astronomical scale.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 02:18 PM
Able to fly said:

"So how did you come to the conclusion that the effect is a placebo effect?"

If there is anything to the LifeWave patches OTHER than the placebo patch, PROVE IT. There's a million dollars waiting for the person who can.

"Is it really just too difficult for you to accept that there are things in life that may be beyond your comprehension."

No, not at all. What I can or cannot "accept" isn't the issue here. Those who believe that LifeWave patches possess any power other than that explainable by the placebo effect need to PROVE their contention(s).

"Well then for the sake of the thousands who claim that the patches did work for them could you please PROVE that it is a placebo (or is that impossible to prove)?"

The burden of proof is on you to show that the patches do what is claimed for them.
Anon
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 02:39 PM
HAving tried them firsthand on 5 occasions, and having seen no response, I have formed my own conclusion.

I would like to hear Able To Fly's source on the "thousands of people that it has worked for"

Are you aware of their sales figures or how many people have tried them out, or are you throwing out a blind exaggeration of what you assume.

When you say thousands of people, other people come on here and read that and assume that as well. Maybe lifewave isnt as big as many think it is, but you seem to know, so please cite your source.

As well, it DOES sound like a broken record when people come on here citing that "well can you prove it DOESNT WORK" That statement alone works in favor of the company and allows more people to be suckered in.

Anyhow, please state how you know or what you base your statement of how many people use/feel lifewave works for them.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 02:53 PM
Anon,

If you only tried them on five occasions, you didn't give your body time to detox.

That's the official LifeWave line to someone like you. It's pretty clever isn't it?

LifeWave, like any scam, always has an answer. A scam, by definition, has to come up with ridiculous answers to serious questions as they don't have substance to fall back on.

They have a few words that also covers someone like you. "Helps most people." It's a bit like watching carpet cleaning ads. "gets out most stains" but the stain you have won't budge!

Let's see what advice you get. What advice did you get from the seller? Did you ask for a full refund yet? Lifewave claims to offer a refund if not fully satisfied but we haven't seen anyone post here who has achieved the refund.

?
DS
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 02:54 PM
20,000+ users/distributors
$50,000,000 in sales projected their first year.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 05:44 PM
DS

20,000+ users/distributors
$50,000,000 in sales projected their first year.

WOW, that's amazing. Of course we all know the figures NEVER lie.

PS Like the DS part.

!
DS
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 06:29 PM
RLOL

Of course you will not beleive any numbers. You will not beleive anything any Waver might post.

Maybe we should hire a CPA, but of course you will not beleive those numbers either.

You are way too TRANSPARENT! What a joke.
Sell King
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 06:49 PM
Hey, Livewave is soo good. I just got my mother and grandmother to buy me 25000 dollars apiece of product. I'm so excited to sell them to all my friends now. its really cool. All I have to do is tell them that they work. they belive me when I tell them how they will get energy. I dont even have to prove it, and I make a ton of money. Isnt life(wave) grand?

I sure hope they work cause grandma gave me her life savings to give this a go. David Schmidt is such an honest guy, he would never let grandma lose her money. oh no now im thinkin maybe i should have asked for proof that they worked.
DS
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 06:55 PM
You guys are really falling behind in your efforts.

Recent Lifewave announcements:
DS
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 06:57 PM
Recent Lifewave announcements: (cont)

GEAR GURU SUPPORTING LIFEWAVE IN UPCOMING APPERANCES
DS
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 06:59 PM
Recent Lifewave announcements: (cont)

DR. HALTIWANGER
human being
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 07:07 PM
Cranky-

Do cars give out a placebo affect? Don't cars cost much much more money than a single patch?
Don't people test drive cars before buying it?

I don't know comparing cars to a patch is pretty far out there. Don't you think?
DS
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 07:25 PM
Joe-Great News for You!!

Lifewave has just announced the highly anticipated release of the National Convention DVD.

Just let me know and you can buy a set from me.
Able to fly
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 07:30 PM
Do a search for the word "lifewave" on google and currently there are about 123,000 results.

Start clicking on these results and see just how many of then lead to distributors websites.

Not all of these sites are replicas of the original LifeWave site. Some make claims of their own.

On the lifewave.com site there are testimonials with photos.

So we have here evidence of a large number of distributors. I could contact all of these distributors and ask them if they felt any benefit from the patches, but no doubt some of you will argue that they are going to say "yes" to protect their financial investment.

I am not telling anyone that they should buy the patches and I am not telling anyone that they work as a result of the "nanotechnology" that David Schmidt refers to. However I am so sick of the way some of the sceptics on this forum have approached this. It is one thing to say that you doubt that the patches work. It is another to suggest that those who think they work are wrong, crazy, stupid or even worse, liars.

You may need scientific proof to accept things, whereas I am willing to rely on my own experiences to accept things. I am interested to know what makes them work but I don't have to know in order to accept them. I continue to argue on this forum for one reason only (and it isn't to sell or promote the patches), I argue because I feel that some of the comments made by the sceptics are as irrational and unverifiable as those made by lifewave. One difference though, you don't go to lifewave sites and see insults suggesting that the sceptics are "fools". They also don't call the sceptics "liars". Do any of you actually know what the word "HOAX" means? It means to decieve for fun or humour. Is that really what you think all of these distributors are doing? That is a rather nasty accusation.
Joe
Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 08:15 PM
DS

Send that dvd my way.

I only made my comment because prior to the conference, Lifewavers on this forum were telling us that things will be different after the conference. That we would be running with our tails between our legs. That shattering revelations would put us to shame. I've yet to see this. The build-up of that conference made me think that scientific results would be coming. We got nothing. And those that were promoting that conference in this forum are very, very quiet since then.

DS, why do I need a set of DVD's? Does it come with two dvds (one white and one tan) that I play at the same time and then my tv magically enlarges by 30 inches and turns into a plasma tv? Actually, that would be a great product. I will keep that in the think-tank.

Concerning Lifewave publicity, I quote my favorite show, Seinfeld, you don't sell the steak, you sell the sizzle.
Joe
Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 08:23 PM
DS

By the way, I just became a CPA. I'm an auditor for a decent size firm. I would be willing to speak to the partners about taking Lifewave on as a client if Lifewave would ever need an audit. But, of course, if we do find something wrong with the numbers, it would be because we don't believe in the technology.

Send the word to the top, so that if Lifewave ever gets out of the MLM business model, we will be right there to audit them so that they can get rolling on that IPO.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 08:25 PM
DS

Jed Wallace, President of MPH offered, MPH is fortunate enough to be so situated that we
Joe
Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 08:27 PM
Sorry for the sarcastic comments, but it is the only thing that keeps me sane while I'm auditing a governmental agency where being in the building makes me want to shoot myself (people really like working there!!!).


😊
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 08:39 PM
DS

You are quite the joker, transparent or not.

http://www.primezone.com/newsroom/news.html?d=87284

Here we read that another company

BAY CITY, Mich. and TORONTO, Oct. 4, 2005 (PRIMEZONE) -- Sciax Corp. (Pink Sheets:SCXC) announced today that it has engaged Mohajer, Philpy & Hiles (MPH), a Los Angeles-based public relations firm, to generate media awareness for the company and elevate their overall brand recognition.

The company also states:
"MPH is fortunate enough to be so situated that we're able to select for representation only those companies that are truly newsworthy.

Perhaps the company likes to stick with the same words every time they do a launch? To use the same text 2 days later for LifeWave was a little shoddy.

I was wondering why the Sciax Corp. announcement is easily accessible on Google, yet there is no equivalent mention of the LifeWave deal. Is that because LifeWave is not yet mainstream and the reason you are getting this famous company involved?

Exciting times.

?
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 08:46 PM
http://www.mphpr.com/aboutus.htm

Interesting website.
DS
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 09:24 PM
As usual you attack without addressing the issue.

If you want to scam people, you would probably want to keep a low profile for as long as you can.

You would not go out of your way to draw attention to your activities.
EDHUK
Member
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 09:30 PM
DS

The greatest scams of all time have involved public proclamations of worth. You can't have a quiet scam.

Are we to take it that you are David Schmidt the great inventor of this product?

If so, I think there might be a question or two people would love to ask you.

?
DS
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 10:28 PM
You can't have a quiet scam? Oh come on ED, that's nonesense.

What makes you think I am David Schmidt?
DS
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 | 10:29 PM
nonsense
hcmomof4
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 12:51 AM
DS said "As usual you attack without addressing the issue.", presumably about EDHUK's posting a link to an announcement that eerily echoed DS's information about LifeWave's hiring of a PR firm. (Actually, I guess DS would have been the echo...) Is LifeWave really so sensitive that the mere pointing out of facts is seen as an attack? I'm kinda unclear on what the ignored issue was.
hcmomof4
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 12:55 AM
Hey, Sell King,
Since you have a stockpile of 'em, could you send me a few samples to try for myself? I keep asking for some, but everyone else just sounds like scammers. You sound like you're for real!!!

Let us all know when you've struck it rich.

(Good one, by the way)
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 01:19 AM
Able to fly said:

"I argue because I feel that some of the comments made by the sceptics are as irrational and unverifiable as those made by lifewave."

I'm not going to argue that nothing said by a skeptic on this board has been intemperate (myself included). That, however, has no relevance to whether or not the LifeWave patches can do what is claimed for them.

If I say the Earth is round, even if I say it in a nasty way, I'm still right. Facts is facts. As someone said, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.

No matter how the LifeWave supporters change the wording or repeat their argument(s), the burden of proof is, and will continue to be, on them. Prove they work and collect the million dollars. Simple.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 01:22 AM
human being said:

"Do cars give out a placebo affect?"

Not that I'm aware of.

"Don't cars cost much much more money than a single patch?"

Yes.

"Don't people test drive cars before buying it?"

Yes.

What's your point?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 01:27 AM
DS said:

"Dr. Steven Haltiwanger was interviewed on Tuesday October 11th for the Nationally recognized Technology review show TECHLINK. TECKLINK can be seen in several states including California, Colorado, Maine, Maryland, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, and Vermont.

===========

"Sure sounds like a company that is selling a bogus product. We must have everyone fooled. With this kind of press, the government will be on us in no time right? Bring it on!"

It seems that you are under the impression that because someone is interviewed in the media they MUST be legitimate. Um, no, not really.

In June 2003, I was interviewed by not one, but TWO New York City TV news shows (WNYW and WCBS) as a "minister" who runs a church for smokers. I am not a minister, not do I operate a church of any kind. I bullshitted them and got on the air, unquestioned.

In addition, I have been on many radio shows as people I am not. Haltiwanger being on a show means exactly nothing other than that he was interviewed. Period.
Razela
in Chicago, IL
 Member
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 01:36 AM
CMG - You are my hero.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 01:41 AM
DS said:

"20,000+ users/distributors
$50,000,000 in sales projected their first year."

Wow! Well, that proves it. After all, as we all know, no scam has ever been (temporarily) successful. Also, no one in the history of mankind has EVER just pulled some numbers out of their ass, especially if they had a financial incentive to do so.

Yup, you've proved it, all right. No further argument is worthwhile.
Able to fly
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 02:55 AM
Could somebody please tell me where to find the Million Dollar Challenge that Cranky Media Guy keeps harping on about?

I went to http://randi.org and found a Paranormal Challenge. Now this challenge seems a bit weird because to be classed "paranormal" it would be by definition beyond normal. How exactly is "normal" defined? Who defines it? Will it still be classed as paranormal if it can be proved? I suspect the Paranormal Challenge is a bit of a joke.

The most challenging part of the challenge is surely going to be the initial part where both the applicant and JREF have to agree upon "what will constitute both a positive and a negative result".

There are other nice little clauses, such as JREF has to agree upon location but the applicant cops the travelling bill etc.

What about the other small problem, if it is paranormal it may not be easy to switch on and switch off.
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