MOH Forum: Prove God Exists and Get $1,000,000

Prove God Exists and Get $1,000,000

Posted By:
Lord Lucan
in somewhere strange
Jan 12, 2005

<a href="http://www.thinkandreason.com/" title="Think and Reason">Think and Reason</a> is offering $1,000,000 if you can<b> prove</b> that God exists. There are conditions attached. But they do say: <i>"All you have to do is prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God exists. It is really that easy!"</i>

Is there really this money sitting waiting?

Supposing I said I was God - and prove I exist (should be easy) - is the money mine?

Category: Money, Religion; Replies: 1406

Comments

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Onesimus P.	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 03:06 PM Lindsay - I was actually addressing that to CMG, Capt. Al, Charybdis, et al. But thanks for the reply!
lindsay	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 03:09 PM lol yeah i know. i just started rambling..i do that alot. youll have to forgive my interjection
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 04:56 PM lindsay said: "cranky- you have it a little off. you were speaking of Jesus being a "bastard". which would be implying that he exist." No, it wasn't me who said that. No problem. I do think, however, that the word "bastard" was being used in a non-literal sense; in other words, as an insult rather than a literal description. In any case, the legitimacy or absence thereof of Jesus' birth does not prove or disprove his divinity.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 05:04 PM Danae said: "Cranky- I can pray, and from my personal experience (which, might I add, doesn't count) he has answered, but that's off topic." By "answered," do you mean that you got the answer you wanted? If so, is this reproducable? Why not pray for a million dollars? Let me see you pray for a million dollars and have it appear immediately and damn straight I'll believe from that point on. What I've seen in the past is believers saying that they prayed for something and interpreting the outcome, whether positive or negative, as being an answer. If you pray for something and it doesn't happen, I'd say that tends to prove the non-effectiveness of prayer. My answer is that prayer has NO effect on the outcome of events, statistically. "Answer my questions." I'm sorry, what would you like to know?
Carter S	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 05:11 PM UHHHH, I am thinking............
Carter S	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 05:15 PM Hey would thinking prove............ ah crap. I am still thinking...................... Onesimus P., I have already asked that question, I still have no response from it though. thinking
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 05:25 PM Danae said: "Cranky Media Guy, no, God is not "our bitch" as you'd like to call him. But he's willing to let us handle things on our own that he knows we can't handle just to prove we need him more." OK, so God answers prayers, which would seem to be proof of His existance. BUT he lets us do things on our own so that we have to have faith in His existance without proof. Well, that clears THAT up for me.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 05:39 PM Danae said: "The nation has told God, "Back off and leave us alone." Oh? How did that happen? When? So, according to you, America is a Godless nation? Gee, I thought it was a "Christian nation," according to evangelical Christians. When did that change?
Danae	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 05:55 PM Cranky, my questions were did you ever believe in Jesus? And if you did, why did you stop? Also, this nation may be one of the most evangelical Christian nations, but there are people like you and Charybdis and other secular people saying that God's not there, and if he is, he's an idiot so you want him to leave you alone. This is a "Christian Nation" but people like you tell God he's not welcome here.
Carter S	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 09:32 PM Well here it is.. There is no proof. But to us believers, we have more than proof. We have our faith. The reason why we believe is because we feel it in our hearts. To us God is all around us, the trees, the air, the clouds. To ME none of this could be possible without God. If someone claims to believe in God, then I don't think that they should have the burden of convincing them. We can only find God for ourselves. Now, I don't believe in hell, I don't believe in the Devil. But I also don't believe that there is one perfect religion. I think one of the biggest things on earth is tolerance. I think learning to be able to tolerate others beliefs, (unless of course it is intended to harm), is important whether or not you believe in God or not. Tolerance is very important. I mean we don't want another holocaust do we?(not saying that this forum will lead to one) The holocaust was a result of anger and intolerance.
Carter S	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 09:33 PM CONTINUED... I think of earth as a "school" for our souls. I DO believe in reincarnation. I have many personal experiences that leads me to believe that. I don't think God gives us just one opportunity to perfect ourselves for him. I think of it as teaching your kid with math. They try and try but only get some fundamental aspects down. They get so frustrated that they want to quit. So the kid quits. You say 'keep trying','do the best you can', But you never give up on them. So, when they come back and want to try again you don't say 'NO you had your chance, you ruined it'. You would'nt do that to someone you love. You would say, with your arms wide open, 'of course you can try again' 'make me proud!'. Now, I am not saying that I am right. I am simply giving out my view of God. Which of course we have no physical proof of his existence. What I hate the most is how people give a weird look if you tell them what you think.(reincarnation for instance) NO ONE knows the truth about religion. For all we know God could have created all religions so that we could have our own way of worshipping him, and that we could learn to be tolerable of others beliefs. In that case we would all be right. Maybe we are. For all of you non-believers, I don't think you will go to hell with charybdis(he's already there j/k!) You do your thing. If that's what gets you through life then so be it. This is what gets us through life, believing in God. It gives us hope. I for one can not fathom the feeling to just 'cease to exist'. I can't really think of not being able to think. It just feels impossible. I KNOW THAT'S NOT PROOF, so by giving any rules is pointless on your part, since I have already admitted that there is no proof. We would have to prove that there is proof first. Which is hard. I think there is proof, but our human minds can't get past SOME of the simple things of life, so how can our minds get to a more complex stage.
Carter S	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 09:35 PM Continued... It's all very complicated. The purpose of all of this is to help people be more tolerable of others beliefs, to help people embrace different cultures. To keep an open mind. Some people look through a hole so narrowly that it is impossible for them to see that anything else is possible in the world. You(everyone)look through a glass darkly, you know it in part. That means that you might be wrong. The day we die will be the day that we actually see some physical evidence of God. I say physical because I feel that I and all of you have an emotional side that is attached to God. Our Spirits could be considered physical, but our emotions are truly visible. I for one hope that US humans can figure out and find proof for the existence of God. I for one chose to believe. To me, my heart is telling me everything that I need to know. Just be respectful of each other, and for the sake of human kind, have tolerance for other people and their beliefs. I know that my beliefs and feelings are not proof, but to me that is good enough, and if anyone has a problem with it then too bad. Again giving me any rules is pointless, because I have admitted that there is no proof to show. I only want people to be tolerable and respectful of others. *As for the reincarnation, I don't think we come back as plants, animals, or houses etc... I think we come back as human life forms. Which is the perfect vehicle that thinks rationally and can think for its self, and most important of all Love and care.
Carter S	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 09:39 PM You can now turn off the "FULL HOUSE" "SPECIAL TALK" music off now. "The day we die will be the day that we actually see some physical evidence of God" I meant, it will be the day we can actually see for our selves who is right and who is wrong. That, that day will give us proof. There we go.
Carter S	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 09:50 PM Substitute "tolerable" with "tolerant". I was in a rush.
Carter S	Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 \| 09:52 PM "You can now turn off the "FULL HOUSE" "SPECIAL TALK" music off now" Oh and take away ..off now" in the sentence above.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 \| 12:32 AM Carter S said: "Again giving me any rules is pointless, because I have admitted that there is no proof to show. I only want people to be tolerable and respectful of others." All sarcasm aside, I honestly do think that my Rules are valid, if only as help to avoid irrational arguments. I'm completely with you on the tolerance and respect issue, though. Unfortunately, religion is a large part of the problem there, which is one of my biggest objections about it. No, I'm not accusing you of this. I'm speaking in a general sense.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 \| 12:57 AM Danae said: "Cranky, my questions were did you ever believe in Jesus? And if you did, why did you stop?" Well, I've had 12 years of Catholic school, through senior year of high school. I don't know if I was ever really religious. I was certainly taught all about Jesus, but by about the sixth grade, I was starting to have serious questions about what I was taught. Just for starters, it didn't seem that the people teaching me about Jesus acted according to What Jesus Would Do. I remember thinking that Jesus wouldn't hit a kid just for not having his homework done on time, for instance. That may seem a little simplistic, but I WAS a kid, after all, and it isn't unfair to ask whether God's self-appointed representatives act according to the rules they teach. From there, it isn't that long a ride to get to the point where you are questioning the entire Catholic church and from there to questioning the nature of religion in general. You gotta start somewhere. "Also, this nation may be one of the most evangelical Christian nations, but there are people like you and Charybdis and other secular people saying that God's not there, and if he is, he's an idiot so you want him to leave you alone. This is a "Christian Nation" but people like you tell God he's not welcome here." OK, I'm having trouble following your logic here. The vast majority of Americans call themselves religious and the vast majority of those people identify themselves as Christian. Why doesn't God consider the will of the majority rather than be put off by a relative handful of malcontents like me and Charybdis? Is he SO insecure that He needs EVERYONE to be on board? We few reject Him so He slinks off, like a child who has had his feelings hurt? Pretty touchy for a Supreme Being, no?
Charybdis in Hell Member	Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 \| 08:51 AM Damn you people talk alot. 😊 Since America is considered the most religious of the developed countries, I'm confused by Danae as well. Is she blaming us for all the bad things that have happened? Did God turn his back on 300,000,000 people just because a small percentage of them don't believe in him? Sounds like a petulant child to me. Honestly, how can you say God is love if he causes (yes, causes - Acts of God after all) the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of innocents each year? How can a newborn baby be deserving of death? How can a pious 50 year old be deserving of death? If God has a master plan it seems to include creating situations that encourage intelligent, rational people to doubt his existance. It seems he only wants the blindly faithfull ones. In other words, he only wants those people incapable of truly thinking for themselves. Sounds suspiciously familiar to me.
Carter S	Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 \| 02:00 PM Cranky Media Guy, "All sarcasm aside, I honestly do think that my Rules are valid, if only as help to avoid irrational arguments." I completely agree with you on your rules. They are valid and I think it does get rid of some irrationial arguments. I just wanted to make it clear that I do in fact agree that there is no proof. "Well, I've had 12 years of Catholic school, through senior year of high school. I don't know if I was ever really religious. I was certainly taught all about Jesus, but by about the sixth grade, I was starting to have serious questions about what I was taught. Just for starters, it didn't seem that the people teaching me about Jesus acted according to What Jesus Would Do. I remember thinking that Jesus wouldn't hit a kid just for not having his homework done on time, for instance." You obviously have no reason to believe in the religion that you were brought up in. I mean pedafiles, abusive nuns. I mean that would scare me out of faith in that religion too. Personally, I don't think that God goes away from the non-religious, or unfaithful, in my opinion I think he is always with us. I think of earth as a school to learn and grow, so to me I think God is watching, not controlling anyone. He gives us free will. (I don't want to get back into that again, since I suck at explaining it) But if God were to step in everytime someone dies, then our population would be HUGE. I mean since it's a school to me, if God were to step in, then it would be like having crib notes on a test. You don't really learn anything. Life is intended to be hard. In my opinion. What do we learn when everything goes perfect, practically nothing. Now, what do we learn when we go through hard times. We learn a lot. We become stronger, we mature, smarter, and more caring. Death is a natural part of life. I do believe in miracles,(angels saving people), But I think that happens only in given situations. If it's not our time, it's not our time. I think we are all down here to accomplish our spiritual goals. I don't know I kind of sound like a preacher. So I'll stop. But anyway, yeah I have my own beliefs. So some of these arguments may or may not be relevant to my personal beliefs. Off subject Ps. ps. Has anyone heard of the Viagra thing. They are using it to keep kids'hearts healthy. I can only see it now, "hey what's up with your erection?", "Oh Im fighting off heart disease" I guess it works, HMMMMM? I gotta go to the store now..........
lindsay	Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 \| 08:06 PM wow... ok use some common sense when youre talking. dang it is not really that bad for the new born when they die, they go to heaven and dont have to deal with the pain and crap of earth. they will always be innocent, they will never have anything terrible happen to them. im not saying go and rejoice when a baby dies, im saying, that death is not a curse if youre going to heaven however it hurts the ppl around you. ive explained this many many times, and no one seems to be able to understand it. its making me question your thinking abilities theres a little things called sin and sin equals death. sin just doesnt go away, itll take its toll. for ever action there is a consiqeunce, sin is exempt from that. sometimes, bad things happen because of sin. God is perfect, if the world went Gods way, they world would be perfect but things arent perfect, they fell from being perfect when the first sin was committed. and that was the door so ima go now ill finish later
Captain Al in Vancouver Island, Canada Member	Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 \| 11:48 PM "it is not really that bad for the new born when they die, they go to heaven and dont have to deal with the pain and crap of earth. "God is perfect" Excuse me while I go vomit.... Okay I'm back now. That is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. I guess we can excuse it as the delusions of an immature youth. You don't know if they go to heaven? That is only wild speculation on your part. You've never been to heaven so you have no idea if it even exists. Let's re-examine whose thinking is suspect: A new born dies as a result of someone else's sin. Why doesn't your perfect god kill the one who sinned instead? "they will never have anything terrible happen to them" Oh really? What about the painful death by drowing, bleeding, beating? You don't call that bad? Didn't Carter say something like, the world is a proving ground for entry to heaven. So if there is a heaven, how does that child prove he/she is worthy of entry if they have no life? This paradox is a result of you religious fanatics making things up as you go without considering what you have already said. God does/thinks/says whatever is convenient to justify whatever I'm doing or saying at this moment in time. Once again, it's all just speculation. As I mentioned to Carter earlier in this thread, it is easy for you to sit in your comfortable home and decide there are divine reasons others suffer because you are not the one doing the suffering. If you were, you might have a different opinion.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 \| 11:59 PM lindsay said: "ive explained this many many times, and no one seems to be able to understand it. its making me question your thinking abilities" Uh, if there's a problem with "thinking abilities," it isn't on OUR end, if you catch my drift. The sad fact is that it's painfully obvious that reality on Earth doesn't line up with the conception of a "loving God" that believers talk themselves into. Therefore they rationalize. Take a look at whydoesgodhateamputees.com . I think you'll find some points there which will be difficult, if not impossible, for you to refute. You have a story which just doesn't hold water. Sorry. By the way, babies are perfectly capable of feeling pains so the notion that sick ones don't suffer is nonsense. You NEED to believe this to rationalize your conception of a "loving God" who wouldn't allow that to happen to an innocent infant. "Original sin" is a load of horseshit.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 \| 12:23 AM Carter S said: "You obviously have no reason to believe in the religion that you were brought up in. I mean pedafiles, abusive nuns. I mean that would scare me out of faith in that religion too." Got that right! I never had any encounters with pedophiles priests (nor did any of my friends that I'm aware of) but I sure ran across physically abusive nuns. Some of them had some SERIOUS mental problems, I believe. At least one nun I had should NEVER have been allowed in front of a room full of children. If there's a surer way to encourage people to leave a church then to beat them as children, I can't think of it. "I do believe in miracles,(angels saving people), But I think that happens only in given situations. " See, the problem with that is, if you put aside your desire to believe that it is God in action, that it looks exactly like random events. In other words, on rare occasions, something like LOOKS LIKE a miracle occurs, but mostly it doesn't. If they happened all the time, we wouldn't think of them as "miracles." They would just be ordinary events. Trouble is, there is no FACTUAL reason to think of them as God acting in that specific occasion. The concept of randomness (or as the bumper sticker says, "Shit happens") covers it nicely. Shit just happens, and sometimes it's shit we WANT to happen. We do NOT need to invent a Supreme Being who "loves us" to explain this stuff. The depth of the need for some people to believe in God is revealed by some of the weak nonsense people will call a "miracle." A stain on a wall is the "face of Jesus"??? Gimme a break. If that's a miracle, it's pretty lame. Make all the blind people in the world suddenly be able to see or cause the dead to rise from their graves, why don't you, Mr. God? THAT would be a damn miracle! A water stain ain't no miracle.
Captain Al in Vancouver Island, Canada Member	Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 \| 12:33 AM CMG, I finally got around to checking out <a href="http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/">whydoesgodhateamputees.com</a>. Excellent link. Not a lot of room for the religious to maneuver there, unless they start making up more shit.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 \| 05:59 PM Captain Al said: "CMG, I finally got around to checking out whydoesgodhateamputees.com. Excellent link. Not a lot of room for the religious to maneuver there, unless they start making up more shit." Yeah, I think the guy who made that site did a pretty good job of walking through the issue point by point. I like the fact that he "recaps" a lot because a lot of debating religious people ends up being going over the same ground repeatedly. He kind of knocks the props out from under that "tactic." I think a truly fair-minded religious person would have difficulty responding to some of the points on that site--unless they do the usual obfuscation (which wouldn't really be fair-minded).
Charybdis in Hell Member	Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 \| 09:26 AM Wow Cranky, that's a very well done site. I'll have to read it all when I'm not at work. Unfortunately, most 'true believers' won't A) read it, or B) care even if they do. It's hard to shake a faith that has encompassed you all your life. That's why rationalization is so prevelant.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 \| 02:37 PM Charybdis said: "Wow Cranky, that's a very well done site. I'll have to read it all when I'm not at work. "Unfortunately, most 'true believers' won't A) read it, or B) care even if they do. It's hard to shake a faith that has encompassed you all your life. That's why rationalization is so prevelant." At the risk of sounding religious, Amen, Brother! You've nailed it perfectly. Believe it or not, I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to the difficulty of throwing off a belief that you've been trained in all your life. Humans are wired in such a way that it's a hard thing to do. I do, of course, think that at the very least, people should examine their beliefs and, in the case of religion, I think they should get away from it, but it is NOT an easy thing to do for alot of people. Difficult but necessary.
Onesimus P.	Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 \| 12:39 AM Just a few simple questions, please: 1) What do you consider to be the strongest evidences AGAINST God, or a god? 2) What do you consider to be the strongest evidences FOR (your alternative of choice?) 3) What is the role of science in this? 4) I reiterate from before, what WOULD you accept as proof of God or a god? I've never posted on a forum before this one, so feel free to correct my online "manners" as well. 😊 Thanks!
ReCon	Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 \| 12:44 AM I have a question: For people who don't believe, are you afraid to die? I mean if you don't believe in an afterlife, then don't you think it would be scary to die, just cease to exist?
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 \| 01:37 AM ReCon said: "I have a question: For people who don't believe, are you afraid to die? I mean if you don't believe in an afterlife, then don't you think it would be scary to die, just cease to exist?" I wouldn't say I walk around being afraid of death, but I certainly don't particularly like to contemplate the notion of my non-existance. OK, here's my question to YOU: do you believe in God because of your fear of death? Be honest now. If so, isn't that a rather thin reason to believe in an all-powerful being? Fear of something certainly does NOT constitute proof of the existance of something else which helps assuage your fear. I suspect fear of death IS the reason (or at least A reason) that a lot of people believe in God. Thinking about not being around anywhere can be scary and talking yourself into the notion that there's a Big Guy out there somewhere who will take you into his company is comforting. It's still unproven superstitious nonsense, but it's COMFORTING unproven superstitious nonsense.
Captain Al in Vancouver Island, Canada Member	Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 \| 09:29 AM Isn't fear of death a direct result of our natural instinct of survival? A species that fearlessly jumped off cliffs or took no notice of predators would be wiped out quickly by natural selection.
Charybdis in Hell Member	Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 \| 11:42 AM Just a few simple questions, please: 1) What do you consider to be the strongest evidences AGAINST God, or a god? There is no evidence that A god of some sort doesn't exist. There is plenty of evidence that the god of specific religions doesn't exist as those religions teach. The Bible and other religious books are filled with inconsistancies and outright contradictions. Additionally, as has been pointed out before, most religious people don't even seem to believe in the god specified by their own religions. The Bible promotes many things, and even commands a few, that many, if not most, Christians and Jews don't adhere to. 2) What do you consider to be the strongest evidences FOR (your alternative of choice?) I have no evidence for god. There is no requirement for a 'god' role in science's understanding of the universe. 3) What is the role of science in this? As far as I'm aware, science doesn't include God. That doesn't mean that all scientists are atheists, just that they don't necessarily include God in their understanding of how the universe works. Say 'It's this way because God commands it' is a cop-out. Scientists seek answers, not dead ends. Keep in mind that this is just a generalization. It doesn't apply to each individual scientist, who works and believes pretty much as he or she likes. 4) I reiterate from before, what WOULD you accept as proof of God or a god? Honestly, probably nothing that man can show me. Even the most astonishing wonders wouldn't convince me, as I'm well aware that all people can be deceived or are capable of misunderstanding. This goes for any 'visions' or personal enlightenments that I may experience. If God truly exists and desires my belief and worship then He is more than capable of providing me with some kind of ultimate 'Proof' that I can't deny. Anything short of that just isn't enough. I'm a reasonably intelligent and rational being with the ability to think for myself. If God exists, He gave me the ability to think critically and skeptically. Only He can take it away.
Carter S	Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 \| 12:36 PM Captain Al said: "Didn't Carter say something like, the world is a proving ground for entry to heaven. So if there is a heaven, how does that child prove he/she is worthy of entry if they have no life? This paradox is a result of you religious fanatics making things up as you go without considering what you have already said. God does/thinks/says whatever is convenient to justify whatever I'm doing or saying at this moment in time. Once again, it's all just speculation." Actually I don't recall ever saying that the earth is a proving ground for entry to heaven, since I don't believe in hell. I do think it's a place to learn and to grow, but to me in the end we are all in heaven. I would go into more detail, I just don't care to. "As I mentioned to Carter earlier in this thread, it is easy for you to sit in your comfortable home and decide there are divine reasons others suffer because you are not the one doing the suffering. If you were, you might have a different opinion" Yes, I recall you saying that before, but what makes you think I am not suffering, or have suffered? Just because I have access to a computer doesn't mean I am rich and pain free. For all you know I have no doors on my house. Actually just because people are suffering doesn't mean they don't believe in God. What about the slaves, they were always preaching to God and about God. Well I don't know if all of them felt that way, but most religious people think of suffering as a test to them selves. There are diff ways of suffering, like emotional, and physical. Everybody will go through these within their lifetime. Including YOU. Just because people in Ethiopia or some other country are suffering doesn't mean that they don't believe in God. In my opinion, God is responsible for our existence, and We are responsible for our actions.
Carter S	Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 \| 12:47 PM Crank Media Guy Said: "The depth of the need for some people to believe in God is revealed by some of the weak nonsense people will call a "miracle." A stain on a wall is the "face of Jesus"??? Gimme a break. If that's a miracle, it's pretty lame. Make all the blind people in the world suddenly be able to see or cause the dead to rise from their graves, why don't you, Mr. God? THAT would be a damn miracle! A water stain ain't no miracle." Well, I don't think of those things as miracles, stain on a wall, but I do have the right to believe in miracles because I choose to. Like my Grandma was going to make a turn but her steering wheel wouldn't turn, then out of no where a semi came racing by. Then once it was gone she was able to turn it. Now she could have just been lucky, but I choose to call it a miracle. Have a Happy Thanksgiving Dudes! Eat all the turkey you can. I will be wearing an elastic waist band for sure!
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 \| 01:54 PM Carter S said: "Like my Grandma was going to make a turn but her steering wheel wouldn't turn, then out of no where a semi came racing by. Then once it was gone she was able to turn it. Now she could have just been lucky, but I choose to call it a miracle." Yes, you CHOOSE to call it a miracle. That's the point. Isn't a "miracle" supposed to be an inexplicable event? You know, like something that's simply beyond our understanding. Stuff like the dead rising from the grave, etc. Grandma's stuck steering wheel wouldn't seem to qualify as "inexplicable." Fortunate, sure. Amazing? Nah.
Carter S	Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 \| 03:00 PM GO UTAH UTES!!! BYU CAN KISS MY ASS!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! 24-3 UTAH!
Captain Al in Vancouver Island, Canada Member	Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 \| 04:33 PM Carter said: "Like my Grandma was going to make a turn but her steering wheel wouldn't turn, then out of no where a semi came racing by. Then once it was gone she was able to turn it. Now she could have just been lucky, but I choose to call it a miracle." What happened to your grandmother's free will? Shouldn't your god have let Grandma turn into the semi? A tsunami kills 250,000 people and the believers on this forum say God doesn't intervene in things like that but you are convinced God saved one life by momentarily locking a steering wheel. That makes a lot of sense.
Captain Al in Vancouver Island, Canada Member	Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 \| 04:55 PM Carter, If it wasn't you who said something to the effect that earth is a proving ground for heaven them I'm sorry. You say so many weird things I automatically thought it was you.😊 I'm sure you understand how difficult it is to go back through the whole thread and see (I did try for a while). About the other point. No matter how much you think you have suffered, I'm willing to bet those people in Ethiopia would gladly trade places with you.
Carter S	Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 \| 06:03 PM Captain Al, No prob, it happens to the best of us. If you are implying that the weird stuff I say are my beliefs, then yes, I say weird things. "I'm sure you understand how difficult it is to go back through the whole thread and see (I did try for a while)." Yes, it is quite irritating. I try my best to avoid that. "About the other point. No matter how much you think you have suffered, I'm willing to bet those people in Ethiopia would gladly trade places with you." I agree, But the point is, is that everyone suffers within their lifetime, and people who do indeed suffer-a lot or a little- still might or might not believe in God. So I don't think it has anything to do with suffering. "A tsunami kills 250,000 people and the believers on this forum say God doesn't intervene in things like that but you are convinced God saved one life by momentarily locking a steering wheel. That makes a lot of sense" Well, I think it must have been their time to go. But for my grandma, well it wasn't. So angels intervened with that. Cranky's right I do choose to think that but, yeah it still could have been luck. To you it's luck, to me it's a miracle. Gotta Problem with that? GO UTES!!!!!!!!! UTAH WINS 41-34 AGAINST BYU. Damn I hate BYU!
Captain Al in Vancouver Island, Canada Member	Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 \| 01:04 PM "Well, I think it must have been their time to go." Wow! What an amazing coincidence. 250,000 people, whose time is was to go, all positioned themselves in the correct place at the correct time to be wiped out by a single act of God. What are the odds of that happening again? Pretty damn good I'd say. STAY TUNED TO THIS STATION FOR LIVE COVERAGE AND ANALYSIS OF THE NEXT NATURAL DISASTER! OVER TO YOU CARTER, FOR A LOOK AT TODAY'S WEATHER!
Captain Al in Vancouver Island, Canada Member	Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 \| 01:09 PM "But the point is, is that everyone suffers within their lifetime, and people who do indeed suffer-a lot or a little- still might or might not believe in God. So I don't think it has anything to do with suffering." My point, which you seem to have missed, is if there really is a God, those people in Ethiopia would not have to suffer any more than you, regardless if they believed or not.
Captain Al in Vancouver Island, Canada Member	Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 \| 01:16 PM Carter said: "I only want people to be tolerable and respectful of others." then: "Damn I hate BYU!" Tolerance Carter, tolerance. :lol:
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 \| 02:50 PM Carter S said: "Well, I think it must have been their time to go. But for my grandma, well it wasn't." That's one of those rationalizations that drives me nuts. If someone dies, people say, "Well, it was his time to go." Uh, yeah, in the sense that he DID go. If someone avoids death somehow, they say, "It wasn't his time." Well, yes, but this in no way proves that there was an intelligence or a plan behind it. If the same person HAD died under the exact same circumstances, you'd be saying it WAS his time. Boy, what a shame that those 3000 people whose time to die had arrived all happened to be in the World Trade Center simultaneously, huh? And how lucky that those whose time to die HADN'T arrived managed to get out of the buildings. Boy, that God guy sure works in mysterious ways! They're SO mysterious, in fact, that they look random to the objective eye.
Carter S	Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 \| 10:22 PM Captain Al, No, I got your point. But that obviously isn't good enough for us believers. I said: "Damn I hate BYU!" the exception of BYU! GO UTES 41-34!!! "Wow! What an amazing coincidence. 250,000 people, whose time is was to go, all positioned themselves in the correct place at the correct time to be wiped out by a single act of God. What are the odds of that happening again? Pretty damn good I'd say" YUP! If I say so.
Carter S	Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 \| 10:25 PM Cranky Media Guy, uhhh huh!!!
Charybdis in Hell Member	Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 \| 09:24 AM I think what you're forgetting is that Carter S' grandmother probably lived in a developed country. Those people killed by the tsunami were, with a few incidental exections, poor people living in the third world. Their time comes due sooner because they choose to be poor and live in an undeveloped country. Hell, the vast majority of them weren't even white. The few 'collateral' white victims might seem unfair to us, but who are we to question God's scorched earth policy. It sure taught us a lesson, didn't it?
carter	Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 \| 11:24 AM charybdis, What does this have to do with the country you live in and wealth? So what if I think it's their time to go. People die whether they are white, black, Asian, poor, rich. To ME, it's their time to go. The only way of convincing me otherwise is by proving the non-existence of God and Heaven. (YES, I KNOW "THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON ME") That should save you some trouble.
Charybdis in Hell Member	Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 \| 11:54 AM Sorry Carter S, but it's such a cop-out to say "It was their time". That's bullshit made up to make people feel better about death. It trivializes people's feelings of loss and the value of that person's life. When I die I'm gone. Poof. Nothing more. I cease to exist. The only thing that will remain is people's memories of me. That's traumatic to the survivors so it's no wonder that they feel the need to believe in an afterlife. Telling people "He's in a better place now" is identical to telling a child that a beloved pet "Ran away". It's a lie, but one that people insist on telling not only each other, but themselves as well. It may make the hurt a little less, but at the expense of actually coming to terms with the loss. It's simply put off until you too die, at which time others will perpetuate the lie because they're too weak to want to face the truth about death. This world is all you get. There are no second chances. Make the most of it while you can.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 \| 08:42 PM Charybdis said: "Telling people "He's in a better place now" is identical to telling a child that a beloved pet "Ran away". It's a lie, but one that people insist on telling not only each other, but themselves as well. It may make the hurt a little less, but at the expense of actually coming to terms with the loss. It's simply put off until you too die, at which time others will perpetuate the lie because they're too weak to want to face the truth about death. This world is all you get. There are no second chances. Make the most of it while you can." Boy, that's about as well said as I could ask for. Yeah, I agree with every word.
Carter S	Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 \| 10:44 PM charybdis, "This world is all you get. There are no second chances." Prove it!
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 \| 01:32 AM Here's Penn Jillette on no-God: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557 Enjoy!
Captain Al in Vancouver Island, Canada Member	Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 \| 06:26 AM Carter said: "charybdis, "This world is all you get. There are no second chances." Prove it!" Do you know any happy dead people?
Charybdis in Hell Member	Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 \| 09:49 AM Carter, all the evidence indicates that when you die, that's it. Dead people don't talk, the don't move, they don't communicate in any way. They do decompose until nothing is left of them. There is no reason to believe any differently.
Carter S	Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 \| 06:19 PM "Do you know any happy dead people?" Do you know any unhappy dead people? We don't know, do we. "Carter, all the evidence indicates that when you die, that's it. Dead people don't talk, the don't move, they don't communicate in any way. They do decompose until nothing is left of them." Well, there is evidence. But people either don't want to accept it.(because it defies the known laws of physics) or they just don't want to. I have had a lot of "paranormal" or "unexplained" phenomena happen. I was at my friends house at a sleep over. It was a about 3 in the morning, and I really had to take a shit. So while I was in there, about 5 min into it, The fking drawer opened on it's own. I didn't even wipe, I ran out of there so damn fast. As I ran out my friend walked in because he had to go too. As I was telling my friends what happened he came running out yelling "what the f*! the drawer just closed by itself. We all looked at the drawer to see if it was a trick or something. And damn that thing was hard to open and close. but when we opened it we saw nothing. We asked our friend if it happens to him, and he said "no, that was the first, but we do have our faucet turn off and on." Nothing can explain that. Oh and my lamp in the living room turns off and on, but the thing is, you can hear the clicker clicking to turn it off. And my toilet flushes on it's own. Oh well, it sucks, but I am kind of use to it. Seriously, maybe it's not defying science at all. Or maybe to our known science it is, but we are to far behind to realize what is really going on.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 \| 06:35 PM Carter S said: "Nothing can explain that." You can't make that statement. What you really mean is that YOU don't know how it happened. Assuming that you're relating the story accurately, yes, it's interesting, but by no means is it beyond understanding. I can explain part of it. Inside the tank of a toilet is usually a small stopper. When the stopper gets worn out, it doesn't sit right in the hole. It slowly allows water to seep out of the tank. Eventually, the water level gets low enough to allow the "float ball" to drop, which triggers the valve that flushes the toilet. There's nothing about this that can't be fixed by buying a $2 stopper. Unless, of course, you think that thousands of toilets across America are haunted. Isn't this a much more logical explanation than thinking that ghosts (or spirits or whatever) are flushing our toilets? As for the drawer, I wasn't there so I can't give you a likely explanation but by no means should you conclude that it HAD to be supernatural.
Captain Al in Vancouver Island, Canada Member	Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 \| 07:51 PM Carter, If you don't know any dead people, happy or not, then how do you know they went on to a second life?
Carter S	Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 \| 09:59 PM That's just the thing, captain, I don't know, I am just saying that I believe it happens.
Carter S	Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 \| 10:13 PM Crany, Now explain the lamp. Explain my TV buttons moving inward as the channel changes. Explain objects being thrown across my kitchen. Explain how I walk in to my kitchen, Only going to the fridge, Then walking out, walking back in, and finding all of my drawers, and cupboards open. One more thing, that happened when No ONE had been home for two days. I was by my self. I know for a fact that it wasn't me. And I would have noticed the first time I walked in since I have to pass two cupboards that would be in my way to get to the fridge. How do you like that for a run on sentence? Gotta Go *VRRRRROOOOOOOOMMM!
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 \| 11:51 PM Carter, obviously I can't explain the things that happened in your house since I haven't witnessed them. If you're describing the events as they truly happened, I'm going to say that there are rational explanations for them which you are simply unaware of. Have you ever seen a David Blaine TV special? He'll do a trick on the sidewalk; afterwards, observers will say things like, "He MUST be supernatural. There's no other explanation possible!" Clearly, that isn't true. There ARE explanations for every thing he does. It's just that the witnesses are unaware of them. It's a mistake to assume that something that SEEMS inexplicable by natural means IS inexplicable by natural means. As for the lamp you described earlier, I'll bet if you were to replace the switch, it would stop turning itself on and off. That could only mean one of two things. Either the original switch was "haunted" or it was simply worn out. Which seems more likely to you? I'm not sure what you mean about the buttons moving as the channel changes on your TV. I would like you to consider the fact that just because I don't have an immediate explanation for the odd things that happen around your home, that does NOT mean that they "have" to be due to anything supernatural. Remember David Blaine.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 \| 12:01 AM Carter S said: "Well, there is evidence. But people either don't want to accept it.(because it defies the known laws of physics) or they just don't want to." OK, let's assume for a moment that the things you've described don't have a simple Earthly explanation. How would that prove the existance of "life after death?" It seems to me that you're making a leap of logic that isn't supportable. After all, couldn't there be some OTHER supernatural explanation for the odd effects than dead people (or their spirits or whatever) doing it? Couldn't they objects themselves theoretically be enchanted or something? I'm sure you understand that I'm not endorsing this notion; I'm just saying that even if the odd things you've observed DON'T have a simple natural explanation, nothing about them demonstrates any evidence of life after death.
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