The Museum of Hoaxes
Prove God Exists and Get $1,000,000
Posted By:
Lord Lucan
in somewhere strange
Jan 12, 2005
 <a href="http://www.thinkandreason.com/" title="Think and Reason">Think and Reason</a> is offering $1,000,000 if you can<b> prove</b> that God exists. There are conditions attached. But they do say: <i>"All you have to do is prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God exists. It is really that easy!"</i>

Is there really this money sitting waiting?

Supposing I said I was God - and prove I exist (should be easy) - is the money mine?
Category: Money, Religion; Replies: 1406

Comments
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carter
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 | 08:53 AM
Crankymediguy,

Yeah I know what your saying.

But there is no one tampering or touching anything that is making those things happen. Unlike David Blaine.

Yes, I know it doesn't mean that it's supernatural, But where would you draw the line to something that you would call supernatural?

If it happened to you, everything, what would you think, the wind did it?

I of course look at it first, and analyze it. Since I don't like the feeling of having a "haunted" house. But I look at it. If there is no rational explanation for it, then I will assume paranormal, until I get the right answer.(with things similar to my house) Don't get me wrong, I am open to the possibilities of paranormal and natural happenings. So I DO in fact keep a skeptic mind, as well as open.

ps. Hey your girlfriend is going to be on Montel today.j/k dude 😊
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 | 09:11 AM
Carter,

I know what you mean. My bathroom door swings open by itself if it's not completely closed. It's the darnest thing. My method of exorcism will be to get the landlord to level it. That will counteract the supernatural force known to some as gravity.
Carter S
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 | 05:16 PM
Damn, your a funny guy, aren't you? Maybe you should do stand up.
Make fun all you want cap'n, but I have seen things happen.

and yes, I know what you mean about how doors or cupboards will do that. Just like anything with a hinge. But explain objects flying across the room.

How about my friends house, where objects FLOAT. Yeah, that's right float. I have seen it happen twice. Once it was the remote control, and the second time it was pen. Yeah, the gravity was working that day.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 | 05:46 PM
Hey! I'm serious. My bathroom door really does open by itself!

If things really do FLOAT in your house, which I don't believe, a simple solution would be to move. What are the odds of getting another place that weird?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 | 01:29 AM
carter said:

"Yes, I know it doesn't mean that it's supernatural, But where would you draw the line to something that you would call supernatural?"

Well, I'd go with the dictionary definition which is something like "that which isn't natural." I didn't look that up, so don't holler if I didn't get it exact. Basically, though, that's what "supernatural" means: that which isn't natural. If there's ANY natural explanation for a phenomenon, then it isn't SUPERnatural.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 | 01:30 AM
Carter S said:

"How about my friends house, where objects FLOAT. Yeah, that's right float. I have seen it happen twice. Once it was the remote control, and the second time it was pen. Yeah, the gravity was working that day."

What does "float" mean in this circumstance?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 | 01:42 AM
Carter S said:

"Hey your girlfriend is going to be on Montel today."

Angeline Jolie was on Montel??
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 | 09:05 AM
Paranormal activity, even if it existed, would still not be a proof for the existence of God.
Carter S
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 | 06:56 PM
Cranky Media Guy,

"What does "float" mean in this circumstance?"

Well, at my friends house(cap'n- it's my friends house, not mine). I have actually seen a pen, and remote control. Picture it as if the pen was actually being held by someone but then that person became invisible. I know it sounds weird and to cap'n it didn't happen. But let me tell you, that's what really sparked my interest in this whole paranormal thing. I wouldn't have believed that something like that could ever happen. But it did. Yeah, I know I could be lying, which I'm sure you do think I am, but I'm not. The only ones that believe me are the ones who have seen it too. My own parents are questioning my sanity, but I keep urging them to go there. Oh well. But anyway, you're right charybdis, it is not proof of God, but it sure makes you wonder what is really out there, and not to make judgements on something that you can't see, hear, smell, or feel, or I guess taste. But, I guess I won't call it paranormal, for cranky's sake, so I will just call it very unexplained, and very weird shit.
But believe what you will, for I know what I have seen, and my friend and his family have confirmed my experience.


"Angeline Jolie was on Montel??"

AHHH! LUCKY! Dude how is it? Can you put aside your relationship so I can have her? But I will change maddox's name to cledus or rupert. Maybe scabies, or rubella, but that's what I am going to call my girl.

Cranky- When you were a DJ what kind of music station was it? Or was it more about talking and interviewing people? Thanks
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 | 12:56 AM
Carter, for the record, I don't think that you're lying necessarily. Not having been there, I can't really say what the deal is.

As for my radio "career," I was a morning drive DJ for most of my time in the "biz" (which may happen again; one never knows). I worked at a few Top 40 type stations, mostly in Pennsylvania.

I've also done talk shows, in Allentown, Boise and San Diego. That's what I like the most, assuming they'd let me work PM drive (I HATE waking up at 3 or 4 AM).

I would LOVE to do a talk show on satellite radio (and I'd be good at it, too).
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 | 07:03 AM
Carter,
You realize your friend is sitting on a gold mine don't you? If things really do levitate in his house, people would come from miles around to see it. And they would pay big bucks too. Then there's the JREF $1,000,000 Paranormal Challenge...
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 | 07:16 AM
"I didn't even wipe, I ran out of there so damn fast."

Why would you run out? What was there to be scared of? It "something" was going to harm you, it would have attacked you instead of the drawer, wouldn't it? The sensible thing to do would be to stay and investigate.

"Seriously, maybe it's not defying science at all. Or maybe to our known science it is, but we are to far behind to realize what is really going on."

Very poor reasoning. If there was something "going on", it would be going on in everyone's house and would have been doing it since the beginnning of time. We would have know about it long ago. Why would it suddenly start at your friend's house?
Carter S
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 | 09:13 PM
"That's what I like the most, assuming they'd let me work PM drive (I HATE waking up at 3 or 4 AM)"

Yeah, no kidding it sucks. I value my sleep way too much, and I hate waking up when it's still dark out. But the traffic isn't bad.
(well, where I am anyway)

Thanks, I was just curious


"You realize your friend is sitting on a gold mine don't you? If things really do levitate in his house, people would come from miles around to see it. And they would pay big bucks too. Then there's the JREF $1,000,000 Paranormal Challenge..."

Yeah, I sure do. I have even mentioned it to him.(JREF Challenge) But he says that he hasn't seen it happen for a while. When it happened to me I was 15, so four five years ago. But he seemed interested in the challenge.

Now only if he were also sitting on "black" gold.
Carter S
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 | 09:33 PM
Captain Al,

Said: "Why would you run out? What was there to be scared of? It "something" was going to harm you, it would have attacked you instead of the drawer, wouldn't it? The sensible thing to do would be to stay and investigate."

Why wouldn't I run out. That's some crazy shit. I never said anything was going to harm me. ??? But why would I want to be in there? If you call a drawer opening an attack, then I guess I should stop opening my drawers to get things out. I mean, that would be rude to do that to a drawer.

I did investigate it, after I ran out. We all did. I was only out for 20 sec after it happened until I started to investigate.


"Very poor reasoning. If there was something "going on", it would be going on in everyone's house and would have been doing it since the beginnning of time. We would have know about it long ago. Why would it suddenly start at your friend's house?"

How is it poor reasoning? I am talking about hauntings all together. So, it didn't start with my friends house. It has allegedly happened to hundreds of thousands of people (out-of-my-ass-stat). So, hauntings don't have to happen at everyone's house, just because it happens to one person doesn't mean it has to happen to everyone else. Like I have said, it has been reported by house owners and the likings that it has happened to them, centuries ago. Ghosts, spirits or apparitions can be traced a ways back.
No I am not saying that just because it can be traced back that it is real, but it can be traced back with books and etc.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 | 01:05 AM
Carter, probably the most fun I had in radio was when I did afternoon drive on a talk station in Allentown. I was awake and didn't feel like crap a large part of the time, as I did when I did mornings. I'm just not a "morning person," I guess. Unfortunately, when you get to Big Time Radio, it's the morning guy who usually makes the most money. It's just that EVERYTHING about that schedule feels wrong to me.
Carter S
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 | 10:18 PM
Yeah, I know what you mean. I can't stand the mornings. I am what you would call a night owl. I am not a morning person either. I stay up so late, and feel great doing it. I think my morning self hates my night self. Especially after a couple of drinks the night before.lol. I hate it when people want to set something up in the mornings. I mean, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THEM?! But, I don't blame you, I try my best to get classes at about 10 am or later. But that never happens, since they get full fast. I can't do night classes because of work. It's frustrating.

So you are considering going back to radio? I bet it's pretty stressful. Did you ever run out of things to say or was there some kind of a schedule to go by, like in topics and such?


Hey, you said your wife was an expert on the Bible. Could you ask her if, in the Bible, that Christ ever mentioned reincarnation. Cause I have read some stuff, and some of it sounds like he was addressing reincarnation.

*I know you and your wife don't believe, but I am just curious if it means something else. I think I have it pretty well thought out. I am just asking because I am having a debate with a believer like myself, but he is more, I guess you could say a Bible freak. It would help a lot. Thanks. Although, I do think of the Bible as book of morals and a guide to good living. But I don't think that all of it is real.

*Don't worry, by you giving me the info I won't take it as your belief in God or anything. I mean, you have made it pretty clear of your beliefs. Thanks.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 | 12:28 AM
So, Carter, you're a fellow night owl, eh? My current schedule is:

Wake up at 1 PM.
Take a nap for about an hour at 6 or 7 PM.
Stay up until 6 AM.

Strange, huh?

As for radio, oh, I guess I'd like to be back in it, but I think that probably won't happen. With the consolidation and increase of syndication in the business, it's hard to find a job that will pay more than close to minimum wage, believe it or not.

No, I never really ran into a problem with having stuff to say when I was in talk radio. There's news every day and as a show goes along, you tend (or at least *I* tend) to develop running bits.

When I worked in Allentown, for example, I came up with a hoax about a company that supposedly provided homeless people to sleep inside your car at night so that it wouldn't get stolen. A Fox network spokesman called me "sleazy and loathsome" because I fooled them into running a news story about that one. That, of course, gave me a LOT to talk about on the air. Honestly, I just don't run into the problem of running out of stuff to talk about. Everybody's good at something, I guess.

Yeah, I'll ask Chrissie if Jesus said anything about reincarnation. Seriously, she knows the Bible really, really well, so she should know the answer to that.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 | 10:44 AM
Carter said:
"Why wouldn't I run out."

Like I said, why would you? Why is it always assumed something like this is to be feared? Perhaps your feelings toward the "supernatural" have been tainted by movies and TV. In Hollywood these things are always shown to be dangerous only because it makes a show more interesting than if it was harmless. If you are lucky enough to witness something of this nature then you should stick around and enjoy the experience.

Seriously though, you can find many "reported" cases of similar phenomenon throughout history but not a single one has ever stood up to critcal analysis. Why should your experience be any different?

Funny how these things only started to be reported in the 19th century when Europe was at its peak of superstitious interest. I don't recall every hearing about any in ancient Greek, Roman or Eskimo culture. It seems to be isolated to those in certain times and places. Like I said before, if it were real, it would happen everywhere. Have you ever heard of a haunted igloo or teepee?
Carter S
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 | 09:38 PM
Fellow Night Owl,

Yeah, seriously my sleeping schedule is like that during the days that I don't have classes. Sometimes it is like that, doing an all nighter for homework feeling ok, then at school I find my self drooling on the person next to me, with a piece of paper stuck on my face.

During the summer I can't go to sleep during the PM. I go to sleep at around 2-4am, wake up at 1-3pm, then go back to sleep at around 6-7pm like you. Just a couple nights ago I didn't go to sleep until 6:30 am. To busy playing Spartan: Total Warrior. Good game. But I really can't help it. Try working at a golf course, I usually had to be there at 4am just to start on the bunkers. It was dark and cold. I hated it. Then we went home at 3pm after an exhausting day of work under the sun.

That's funny, about the homeless car thing. It seems like a good idea, it gives you a lot to talk about, whether people hated the idea or not.
I bet there were a lot of calls in for that one. Here in Utah, there is a segment called "Boner of the Week". They talk about stupid people and have people call in to vote and talk about it. In fact, the dancers that took state at my school were nominated boners of the week. But it's a good way to get things started and get people to talk about it at work or anywhere else for casual conversation.

Thanks for asking her. I can give you the "words" that I need interpretated if you need it. But I'll need to find them. Thanks again.
Carter S
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 | 09:49 PM
Captain Al,

Like I said, Why Wouldn't I. People are afraid of the unknown. I admit it, I was pretty creeped out and scared. I am not now, but that was really my first experience. I mean drawers don't just open on their own, and in my friends case close.

You know what, maybe there was haunted igloos or teepees. But the indians use hieroglyphics to record events. Perhaps we are missing something or interpretating it wrong.

Like I said, it could have happened everywhere. Maybe it did happen in Greece and so on. I don't know, but all that matters to me is my experience, not some dude from ancient Greece. I know what I have experienced and I am still investigating. But I have been led to believe that it's something beyond our knowledge. I will admit I am wrong when I am proven wrong.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 | 12:57 AM
Carter, according to my wife, Jesus never directly talks about reincarnation, but there are passages in the New Testament that some interpret as Jesus endorsing the notion.

At one point, Jesus talks about a man who was born blind and asks whose sin caused the blindness, the man's or his parents'. Well, the thinking goes, Jesus must have been saying that there is reincarnation, otherwise how could the man have been guilty of a sin which would cause him to be born blind? That seems a wee bit roundabout, but that's what some people think the passage means, according to my wife.

She also says there are other passages that are interpreted by some to "show" that Jesus endorsed reincarnation, but I'll have to ask her to explain those to me.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 | 02:18 PM
Carter, here's my wife's actual answer to your question about Jesus and reincarnation:

The question about reincarnation is an interesting one. This is never
directly addressed in the Bible but reincarnation is certainly
considered anathema to orthodox Christianity. On the other hand, the
actual teachings found in the NT are much less stringent...or clear.

An interesting question is posed to Jesus in the Gospel according to
John. in John 9:1-3 we read:
"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
"And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man,
or his parents, that he was born blind?
"Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but
that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

Jesus answers in an obtuse manner, begging the question of whether
illness or handicap is primarily the result of sin - but also skipping
over the obvious implication that the disciples may have believed in
reincarnation, else it would not be possible for the man to have sinned
before he was born. Our intrepid apostles must have thought that the man
had sinned in a previous life and was now being punished. Jesus could
have said, "Don't be silly, how could a man sin before he was even
born?" but he didn't.

In Mark 6:12-16 and Luke 9:6-9 Herod, the King of The Jews, seems to
believe that Jesus is John the Baptist reincarnated.

In Luke 9:18-20, Jesus poses a question which amounts to a political
poll. The text reads: "And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his
disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people
that I am?
"They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elijah; and
others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.
"He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said,
The Christ of God."

Orthodox Christianity does backflips trying to create a spiritual
interpretation (removing meaning) for these texts, because reincarnation
simply isn't possible in a scheme where you get one shot at choosing the
right faith and believing in it enough to be forgiven for your sins, and
where failure to do so in your ONE SHOT means an eternity in torment.
The arguments are familiar and polemical so there is no need to address
them here.

I will leave you with Matthew 11:12-15, where Jesus says "And from the
days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth
violence, and the violent take it by force. "For all the prophets and
the law prophesied until John.
"And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Again, spiritual interpretations raised for the purpose of negation
abound, so I will leave you with the words of Jesus to ponder.

I will reiterate that mainstream Christianity and most of its cultic
offshoots are bitterly opposed to reincarnation. The idea that you might
have a second chance at anything waters down the Christian message of
one salvation, one chance, one way, one destiny. And if you are looking
to the Bible for evidence supporting reincarnation, you'll probably be
disappointed. Judeo-Christian support from the non-canonical Qabbalah
(or however we are spelling it this week) are a different story, but
your Christian friends won't accept that.

And of course you can prove anything from the Bible if you engage in
proof-texting, so any such arguments need to be taken with a grain of salt.
Carter S
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 | 05:32 PM
Wow, thanks. Those were the passages that I have been wondering about. Thanks, and tell her I said Thanks.

Yeah, I mean since I don't take the bible seriously I can't take those passages too seriously. I think of the bible as a Good Life Lesson, or a book made for morals. But I guess I can't use the bible in my debate, So I will try to find some passages in other books and so on.

I really appreciate your time and your wifes time to do that. Thank You!
Onesimus P.
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 | 02:53 AM
Hello all,
Carter S, I'm curious - if you "can't take the Bible seriously" as a whole, how do you decide which parts you can take seriously? How can it be an example for morals, or even a good life lesson, if it lies even at the basic point of self-description? And you've been one of the 2 main "God-defenders" on this forum - so from where do you derive these ideas of who your God is? BTW, your friend will probably bring up Hebrews 9:27-28, including "...man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment..."
Cranky - I've been going over your "rules" a bit, and I'm thinking there might be a few holes in them? So I'll post what I've noticed so far, or at least think I've noticed 😊 and look forward to hearing the holes within my holes. Radio, huh? I did an internship with an NBC affiliate station one winter break. I'd record commercials, PSAs, whatever any day, but live stuff? 'S a different stress-type than I'm used to (but I'm fine with being on stage - guess I'm just weird!) Anyway, that's awesome that you have "the gift of gab," and in a marketable form, at that!
Charybdis - Thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions a few pages back. I do appreciate it.
Onesimus P.
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 | 03:18 AM
1.If you are asserting the existence of God, the burden of proof is on you. No one is required to prove the NON-existence of God.
I'd say this is not entirely true. Flying in the face of the majority of history and science, one would need to give a pretty good reason for doing so. A basic assumption of science is that any process or "any thing that began to exist" had some cause; also, that the natural tendency is toward disorder and not order. Historically, everyone (or nearly everyone), from the tribal person to several centuries of scientists, has agreed that somehow the universe was caused. (Though this doesn
Onesimus P.
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 | 03:21 AM
14. The fact that you have seen an evangelist or other religious person perform what appeared to be a
Onesimus P.
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 | 03:25 AM
Oh - that was "strong" and "em", and I guess I answered my own question! :red: underline and strikethrough I can guess at, the other three do what exactly? And how would you turn, say, italics off again? Thanks!
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 | 07:58 AM
Sorry Onesimus P.,

The burden of proof IS ENTIRELY on the person making the assertion.

" Flying in the face of the majority of history and science, one would need to give a pretty good reason for doing so.

What does science have to do with someone claiming the existence of a supreme being. They are totally separtate things. If you make a claim about a deity, you must provide the evidence. If science makes a claim, they must do the same. The difference is, unlike religious claimants, science attempts to do just that.

So I say Rule #1 in valid.
Carter S
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 | 12:18 PM
Onesimus P,

You said:
"Carter S, I'm curious - if you "can't take the Bible seriously" as a whole, how do you decide which parts you can take seriously? How can it be an example for morals, or even a good life lesson, if it lies even at the basic point of self-description? And you've been one of the 2 main "God-defenders" on this forum - so from where do you derive these ideas of who your God is? BTW, your friend will probably bring up Hebrews 9:27-28, including "...man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment..."

I have been waiting for someone to ask that.

Well, the things I find that could be real are the actual words of people. I think they said those things (which could have been twisted around or wrong in the bible). But I do believe that there are real people in there, like Jesus and etc. But I don't take the actual events of let's say Noahs Ark, or Adam and Eve with the snake(Satan) talking to them. The passages that I have read seem to have a lesson that they are trying to teach. I find a lot of it to be symbolic.
Example: When Jesus was tempted by Satan to have all the power and all the wealth in the world, Jesus turned his back and declined.(something like that, can't remember exactly) But I feel that he was tempted by his own humanity, He turned his back from the Devil-the devil being Greed and Power- He declined HIS temptations. We all have the "Devil" within all of us. I obviously don't believe in the Devil, because I find him to be a symbol of Evil.
Just because I feel that way about the Bible does not mean that I have any less love for God. I interprete and love God the way I see fit. I am still on the side of Lindsay and her friend, and YOU. But, I just feel differently about the bible.

With all that, Of course I could be wrong, or I could be Right. But with the events of Noah's Ark, and the splitting of the Nile or Red Sea(??) It could really have happened (because to me, God is the almighty). But I choose to think of the Bible as a Great book for morals, and it has some good lessons in it.

I am sorry if I have offended you or anyone else in here that believes in the bible. (Not saying you are offended) But that's why I believe it to be that way.

Sorry if I don't make sense right now I am in Class.

Carter S
Carter S
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 | 05:35 PM
Onesimus P,

"Hebrews 9:27-28, including "...man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment...""

Well, he can say that all he wants, but the whole debate between us is whether or not Christ ever mentioned or endorsed the idea of reincarnation.
Not that it actually exists.
Carter S
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 | 05:53 PM
Onesimus P,

So, you're taking a College course soon? Well, I see you like to make sense of things. So go into Philosophy.

To me it was pointless, sense I already thought that way and knew a lot about it. But don't be stupid and have it as your major. To me that's a waste of money. You won't go anywhere with that. A philosophy professor at the most. When people tell me they're a philosophy major I just laugh in their face.

You see I have thought of the same and some other loop holes in those rules. But it doesn't make a difference. There is No proof that God Exists.

My proof use to be the world and the complexity of things. But, the thing is, we can't actually see God. Even if we did, it would be excused as a hallucination. So this fight really will be non-stop. The best thing to do is to know what's in your heart.
I think I am right, Cranky and them think they are right, so it will just keep going and going.

One of my questions regarding God is... If we could prove that we were created by let's say...a leaf. Would we consider that leaf a God?

It has no powers, no eyes, can't think. But it created us. Is it God?

(I obviously don't think that, but it's just a question)
melissa k
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 | 10:56 PM
i have actually seen soemthing come out of nothing. i was in my basement, and in the corner i saw a shadow, a regular shadow, it then became darker and bigger. i felt parlized. i sat there and watched it form into this human shape. it was still dark and shadowy, and i couldn't see a face or anything. i couldn't move, i tried, but couldn't. it just stood there than it finally disinigrated into thin air. it has happened to my older sis but in her room. i can't down there by myself now a days. and our dryer will turn on by itself. iwant to move out but i am only 16 and my parents won't allow it. they arent really conserned about it.
so to me you actually have to see things to believe it. i saw it and i believe it.
:ahhh:
have a great day!
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 | 06:27 PM
This is hilarious. A group of university students are offering a deal where anyone can exchange their useless <a href="http://flickr.com/photos/52819048@N00/69372136/">bibles for porn.</a>
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 | 06:56 PM
Damn, those kids were cool. http://www.atheistagenda.org/

On a related note this came up while googling them and I thought that it was really well written.

http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/2004/sept/cadik.php
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 | 10:19 AM
Here is a tragic story that shows the real motives behind religion. The leaders have no interest in Gods, real or otherwise. It's all about money, power and control.

One brave women decided she had had enough of her forced marriage to a senior member of the Fundamentalists Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. She managed to escape in the night with her eight children, eluding her six "sister wives", the FLDS controlled police and their own armed militia known as the "God Squad" (used to keep the members in line).

Just another ugly example of Christians doing God's work.

<a href="http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/observer/story.html?id=0ff3d621-4d12-4f18-9c71-623d777061e7">Escape From Polygamy</a>
Carter S
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 | 09:48 PM
Captian Al,

Well, are saying that all christians and christian leaders are all about money and power?

The FLDS view is not shared by all christians, it is a mormon religion, but behind it's time. They still believe in polygamy, and they believe in forced marriage, especially adolescents. Which is rape if they have sex with them.

They give religion a bad name, and I hope we catch their leader Warren Jeffs. No doubt, there are some corrupt people involved in religion, but you can say that for just about everything. It's NOT ok, but it happens everywhere.

But there are also honest religions and honest people involved with them. But some people (corrupt) make a certain religion corrupt.

I am all about letting people believe what they want, but the FLDS has to stop with forced marriage, and forced marriage with adolescents.
The sad thing is that these women and children have no choice and can't think for them selves and it's sad.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 | 12:15 AM
"Well, are [you] saying that all christians and christian leaders are all about money and power?"

Yes. (But I meant only the leaders, and of all religions.)

"But there are also honest religions"

Really? Name one.

"They still believe in polygamy, and they believe in forced marriage, especially adolescents"

Wrong.

Those in "control" believe in forced marriage, and polygamy. (Use the correct specifier. "They", means everyone.) Of course it also takes a large group of gullible followers who believe your fantastic tale to make this work. There appears to be plenty of those around though.

Of course, the FLDS leaders claim to be appointed by God to be the leader (and enjoy all the benefits). Odd that no one ever claims to be appointed by God to be the one taken advantage of. Such behaviour is psychologically understandable though. Obviously, there can only be one pope and it's not likely he will ever give up that position, and the benefits that go with it, to you no matter how much you argue that you are the true representative of God.

The simple solution to this dilemma is to form your own religion and appoint yourself leader (as directed by God). This accounts for the thousands of religions (all claiming to be the only one sanctioned by God) that exist today. Of course while doing this it is only natural to throw in a few extra perks for yourself, such as taking multiple wives (against their will), sex with adolescents, etc.

"I hope we catch their leader Warren Jeffs"

What's the problem? The police can't find him and arrest him? Hey I know! Why can't God wipe him out with a tsunami or a hurricane? Those seem to be God's top two methods for eliminating infidels (if a few hundred thousand loyal believers also get killed at the same time... well that's just too bad for them).

Oh, I forgot. They don't get hurricanes or tsunamis in Utah. Well I guess that makes Warren Jeffs untouchable by God. And I thought God was all powerful. Guess I was wrong.
carter s
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 | 07:47 AM
umm.... Ok dude

Actually Warren Jeffs doesn't live in Utah, but nice try.

You obviously think of this as a game.

"What's the problem? The police can't find him and arrest him? Hey I know! Why can't God wipe him out with a tsunami or a hurricane? Those seem to be God's top two methods for eliminating infidels (if a few hundred thousand loyal believers also get killed at the same time... well that's just too bad for them)."

Yeah! that was a smart comment!I love it when people act like douche bags.
If you knew anything about religion, then you would know that everything you are saying doesn't apply.

But since you don't and you waste your time with something you know nothing about. At least Cranky knows what he's talking about. At least do some research bud.

The whole, God should wipe out people with tsunamis and hurricanes are worthless arguements on your part which I will ignore. Sorry, to us believers that is not a good arguement.

I don't know why your sticking up for Warren Jeffs. If I didn't know better I would say your one of his followers or Warren himself.

PS. Get some fresh air!
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 | 09:25 AM
"If I didn't know better I would say your one of his followers or Warren himself"

Well I guess you don't know better. You are also blind to sarcasm when it concerns your almighty god.

My comments concern religion in general since they are all the same except for a few minor details. The FLDS's are just the extreme when it comes to basic human rights in a democratic society. Of course you don't see any of the other religions doing much about it. Even the beloved faith-based G.W. Bush does nothing about it. Just more proof of religion's hypocrisy.

"The whole, God should wipe out people with tsunamis and hurricanes are worthless arguements on your part which I will ignore."

Yes, you always run away from that argument. You like to brag about how your god controls these things but won't explain how it defies logic. Why don't you just tell us why your almighty god can make a hurricane in Florida but not in Utah? Perhaps you can explain why all those people in New Orleans prayed for the torment to stop but got no answer from God. Perhaps he is not as almighty as you think or perhaps he just doesn't exist at all. Perhaps the FLDS is just spewing hot air to gain money, power and control.

The only thing that can help the unfortunate people in the FLDS are laws, strictly enforced in a state totally separate from any religion.
Carter S
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 | 09:17 PM
Captain Al,

I read only like two sentences of what you wrote and skimmed through the rest. I was in class and couldn't be on the internet.

I was merely trying to get you all worked up. You actually handled it very well.


"Of course you don't see any of the other religions doing much about it. Even the beloved faith-based G.W. Bush does nothing about it. Just more proof of religion's hypocrisy"

Yeah, I know, but other religions feel that it's not their job to stop other religions. I mean, I really don't know what they are trying to do about corrupt things, since I have no specific religion. (I don't go to church, But I consider myself christian) But I have no clue why some religions do the things they do. But that's not proof that God doesn't exist or does exist.

Well some honest religions that I would consider are buddhism, and I guess it really depends on the people who are involved with that certain religion that make it corrupt or not. I mean, TO ME, it's not the religion so much as the people who make it corrupt. But that's my opinion. Just like politics. I mean, the republican party and democratic party aren't corrupt views, but the many politicians that make it so. (In politics there are corrupt views, but that's a diff thing)

"Yes, you always run away from that argument."

Actually, I have never "ran away" from that argument. I have actually stayed and argued about it with lindsay in the past. But that question keeps coming up, and to us believers it means nothing to us. Since we believe that God has plans and reasons for everything.

For the hurricane in Utah, well right now they are discussing the "BIG ONE" (earthquake) that will hit Utah at anytime. They are saying that it IS in fact possible to have a tsunami form in the Great Salt Lake. It could wipe out all of Provo-Salt Lake counties from one lake and all of Davis County from another. But for a hurricane, well since we don't live on the shore we can't possibly have the same affects that New Orleans did. For God doing it, well, what would be the purpose of him causing one? Warren Jeffs? It is our responsibility to catch him not God, It is our responsibility to learn on our own through hard times and easy times. I don't know why things are the way they are, if God causes Hurricanes, earthquakes, etc... or not. I don't have all the answers, NO ONE does. Not even athiests. If God does in fact cause or if he can stop natural disasters, then I have no clue why he does it and doesn't. In my opinion it's not like that. No, I am not running from the question, I just don't have all the answers. I have my own way of looking at the world, and in my view I understand why God doesn't step in. Like I have said in the past, We look through glass so darkly, that means that anyone can be wrong about anything. I could very well be wrong. But in my opinion, I don't think I am, on God. Doesn't mean I'm right but..........

I do think that God is almighty, In my opinion, just asking for God to show up so you can see him and so he can help you is selfish. I think he wants us to learn responsibilty and self-independence. That we should learn to be patient with each other as well as tolerant. I'll stop preaching, but what I'm trying to say is that no one knows the absolute truth. We can only make a guess. You make the guess that their is not a God and I chose to say their Is a God. I say, let people believe what they want. (not saying your trying to prevent that).
Carter S
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 | 09:25 PM
Has anyone seen Kingdom of Heaven? It's about the war in Israel, and it just shows how stupid it is to fight over things such as Religion and that power and greed is an on going struggle between all humans. Very Good Movie, I also recommend Wedding Crashers. Hillarious! That also has some good lessons in it. Very diff lessons.

Onesimus P,

I answered your question, are there any more questions?

I hate when people show up, ask questions and don't even respond back to your response. Like, Onesimus P!
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 | 12:06 PM
"I don't go to church, But I consider myself christian"

Sorry, not good enough. See you in hell Carter.

Seriously though:

"But I have no clue why some religions do the things they do. But that's not proof that God doesn't exist or does exist."

It sure as hell is proof God doesn't exist. The fact "God" lets them get away with it more than proves there really is no magic sky-ferry watching out for people.

"For God doing it, well, what would be the purpose of him causing one?"

You tell me. You're the one with the direct line. Why did God make that tsunami and the New Orleans disaster? Religion claims God is all powerful and causes everything, even an insigificant water stain on a freeway overpass. An earthquake in Utah? Must be God's work as well. Since you claim allegiance to that very same God, you have to answer for it. After all, he's your God.

"In my opinion, just asking for God to show up so you can see him and so he can help you is selfish."

Selfish? What about all those hundreds of delusional people who flocked to that freeway overpass to see the Virgin Mary water stain, thinking it was God showing signs? It seems most of your fellow Christians don't agree with you on that one.

Also, since you think asking God to help you is selfish, you must not believe the bible. The bible specifically states prayers WILL be answered:

In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:

If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

In Mark 11:24 Jesus says:
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Millions of people in New Orleans (and elsewhere) prayed and those prayers were not answered. There is no God. Case closed.
Carter S
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 | 06:18 PM
Captain Al,

Now that your saying that God doesn't exist, then prove it! You said it, so you must prove it.

As long as your making the notion that he doesn't exist then you should have the burden of proof to prove it. If anyone is making an argument about whether or not something exists or not, then they should prove it.

Don't give me the you can't prove a neg, because Charybdis already said that's just a myth.


So do you believe in china? I mean you can't see it. For all you know people could be making it up, and all of those pictures of china are just pic of Japan. hell does japan even exist?

What about the other provinces that are in Canada? Do those exist. Actually, I want you to prove to me that you exist. You could be a figment of my imagination. That's it.

If you don't believe in China, then I wouldn't be surprised.

I bet you are the only one that exists huh? I bet there is some evil genius out there to get ya. This whole thing is a simulation. But then again, I can't prove that huh?

Hey Captain Al, God loves you. You are his child. Don't worry, when you die there will be proof for you. So everything will be alright.

I mean, you are quoting the bible and all.

I said:
"But I have no clue why some religions do the things they do. But that's not proof that God doesn't exist or does exist."
You said:
"It sure as hell is proof God doesn't exist."

No, actually it doesn't prove God's non-existence. Sorry poor rationalizing.

Absence of Evidence is Not Evidence of Absence.

God loves you captain al. He loves you.........

See you in Heaven!

So if God doesn't exist, then why are you arguing about something that doesn't exist? Aren't you just wasting your time? Because, I believe you are.

"Selfish? What about all those hundreds of delusional people who flocked to that freeway overpass to see the Virgin Mary water stain, thinking it was God showing signs? It seems most of your fellow Christians don't agree with you on that one."

Hmmm.... maybe you should go ahead and study religion, then come back. Alright? Sounds good!

"Since you claim allegiance to that very same God, you have to answer for it."

No I don't. He's the almighty, he has all the answers, not me.

I just find it amazing that beings that came out of the sea, all of the sudden had senses of humor and emotion. Knew right from wrong, and have brains that develop fast. Wow. I mean we have no purpose here at all, we are just these things that happen to love and hate and die. Well, you better go hug your family right now, cause I guess you will never see them again after you die.

You are not right, case closed!

NEXT!
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 | 08:03 PM
Carter,
As a matter of fact, I do believe in China. I've been there 8 times. And I've been in every province of Canada (except Newfoundland) at least twice this year so I can definitely say those places exist.

I noticed how you tap-danced around my observation about how your beloved bible guarantees an answer to prayer. Since those prayers are not answered it can definitely be said no there is no God to answer them.
Carter S
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 | 08:09 PM
I here by concede from this forum, I Carter S will not be able to reply to any comments due to my lack of visiting this site. Any comment made to me will be greatly noticed by all other posters in my honor. I here by concede from this forum with no regrets, and a lot of respect for the many Master Debaters on this forum.

In doing so, I will not reply to any of your comments, I will not even look at your comments. So by all means do and say what you want with the name Carter S. For I will not be here to make any comebacks or remarks on your posts.

I would like to thank: Lindsay, Cranky Media Guy, Captian Al, Charybdis in Hell, Danai, and Onesimus.P. Thank you for all of your posts and your replies to me. Except for Onesimus. He/she never replies back. Most of all Alex, for allowing me to Debate such Master Debaters and creating such a site in which people can freely give out their opinions on any subject.

By me conceding from this forum, I am not accepting defeat, for no one has convinced me other wise, and never will. But has made me think.

By me conceding from this forum I hereby just have better things to do than waste my time debating something that will never be proved on either side.

By me conceding from this forum I hereby conclude that God Exists and there's nothing you can do about it!

I hereby wish everyone GOOD LUCK in their debating, and hope that everyone will stay clean in their arguments and will not lie.

I have said what I needed to say.

GOD BLESS ALL, AND GOD LOVES ALL OF YOU!

Peacccce!!

Carter S.

this was a comment made in part by Carter S. The one and only. From the makers of Carter S., and sponsered by Carter S.

Brought to you in part by My Mom.
Carter S
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 | 08:14 PM
Well, since I am here I guess I will go ahead and say this.

"I noticed how you tap-danced around my observation about how your beloved bible guarantees an answer to prayer. Since those prayers are not answered it can definitely be said no there is no God to answer them"

Actually, if you have ever noticed, I've mentioned in earlier posts that I don't believe in the bible. So by saying that it's my "beloved bible" is incorrect.

ps. Tap-Dance, ha I wish!

This has been brought to you by the letter C.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 | 09:08 PM
Are you leaving again?

Well at least you are smart enough to know the bible is bullshit. I forgot, you did say that.

Strange though, you don't believe in the bible or hell yet you say you are Christian. Not sure how that works except to reiterate my previous comments about how religion is custom fitted to everyone's situation. If you are rich, poor, generous, selfish, serial killer, child molester or world conquerer, you can always find something in religion to justify your actions. There will be no fear of repercussions either since no God exists to punish you. And you get tax breaks too! What a deal.

So long (until you come back again).
Rita
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 | 08:41 AM
The only way to prove that to you would be for you to have to find out. What you have to do is go to a church and pray for the answer ( while doing so, surrender yourself to him.) and really believe in your heart and you will "feel" him. God show's himself in many ways- but people are to blind to see him. I also believe that the devil exist's as well..E-mail me and let me know how it went!
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 | 01:35 PM
That's not an answer Rita. There is no reason to believe in the existence of God, so there is no reason to 'surrender yourself to him'. I could surrender myself to the Easter Bunny, the reasoning and evidence behind both are exactly the same.

If I said that I had a personal experience with EB and know him to be real, and you would too if only you'd open your heart to him, would you accept that he must therefore actually exist? Would you take my word for it like I'm supposed to take your's? If not, why not? I can give you exactly the same evidence to prove that the Easter Bunny exists that you can give me to prove that God exists. How do you choose which to believe and which to treat as a myth?
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 | 01:37 PM
And Carter S, I'll miss you. You never could come up with a valid reason to believe in your myth other than personal preference, but at least you were intelligible and didn't devolve into incoherence. You were even willing to listen to arguments against your belief, mostly. 😉
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 | 08:25 PM
Rita,
Please list for us the ways God shows himself so we don't miss them next time.

Also, what makes you think the devil exists? Have you ever seen any devils?

If God is the creator of the universe, then he must have created the devil too. Why would he create something that he has control over? Doesn't make sense. Then again, neither does anything else in religion.
Onesimus P.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 | 12:51 PM
Whoa - a lot happened here in 9 days...
First of all, Carter S., on the off-off-chance that you someday revisit the forum, I'll try to go ahead and (likely uselessly) answer the question. I apologize for not having visited here in a while, but in my case, "evidence of absence is not absence of interest!" Might I point out that my previous posts were on Nov 11, Nov 16, and Nov 30, so while I may not be the most regular person, at least I'm consistent! 😊
Yes, I'm hoping to audit Logic next semester...found out I missed Philosophy this semester...but I'm actually a Music, and not a Philosophy, major. (I know, I know, almost as laughable).
"If we could prove that we were created by let's say...a leaf. Would we consider that leaf a God? It has no powers, no eyes, can't think. But it created us. Is it God?" This is probably me being over-analytical and totally missing the intent behind the question, but I will answer what was asked. First of all, I don't think that a leaf could possibly be responsible for creation - even in theory. A leaf is matter, and as such cannot be responsible for creating all matter. It would thus have had to create itself at some point. A leaf lacks mind, intent, and as you stated, any form of observational anatomy like eyes or ears. So how could its creation exhibit these things? And if it has "no powers," then how'd it pull off creating us?!
The nearest one could come is to say that there was a god who created us, then for some reason chose to limit itself, or reveal itself, in the form of a leaf. But how could you "prove" that a single, apparently normal leaf was actually a manifestation of a god? And that it was then responsible for creation? So that's my take on it. Once again, I'm totally new to forums, and I apologize if my extended absences break some type of protocol or etiquette thereof!
Onesimus P.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 | 12:54 PM
P.S. Is there any way to do paragraph indentation? It (or the lack thereof) is driving me crazy!
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 | 01:19 PM
I don't think you can indent paragraphs here so most people use a blank line to separate them. Seems to work just as well.
Remy P.
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 | 10:07 PM
So I am guessing you athiests aren't celebrating christmas. I mean, wouldn't that go against your whole stand on religion, celebrating something considered holy.

Well, Im just guessing. If you are, then I think you guys should call yourselves the Hypocritical Athiests. Yeah, that sounds about right.

PS. You guys might want to stay away from easter too. Just a little advice in case you don't want to become a hypo-athiest. Oh, and if you have a christmas tree, oops I mean "Holiday" Tree, sorry, I would throw it away, or maybe even donate it to someone who needs a tree.

Don't be a hypocrite now.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 | 12:23 AM
Remy P. said:

"So I am guessing you athiests aren't celebrating christmas. I mean, wouldn't that go against your whole stand on religion, celebrating something considered holy."

Why would an atheist celebrate Christmas? You're making an assumption here and basing your argument on it. Why are you doing that? What atheists do you know who celebrate the birth of Christ? Silly silly silly.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 | 09:22 AM
Remy P.,

You guessed right. I'm not celebrating Christmas. I never have, at least not since I was a child. After all, who else believes in fairy tales?

And I suppose no Christian family anywhere has ever sent their child out trick or treating on Halloween. That would make them hypocritical, wouldn't it?

Just curious Remy, will you be praying for the people who died in the tsunami last Christmas? Gee, I wonder if the survivors' families will be celebrating.
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 | 11:13 AM
I celebrate Christmas. After all, it's a commercial holiday, not a religious one, and who doesn't like commercialism. Christmas is a time to give and receive presents. That's it. After all, if Christians could appropriate a pagan festival for their "Holiest Day" then why can't we atheists do the same to you?

Easter, on the other hand, is only good for one thing. Whoppers Eggs.

I also enjoyed Harry Potter, and I don't believe in magic either. Sometimes you have to just let go and have fun pretending to believe in a myth every once in a while.

This Christmas please remember that Jesus died to save Santa Claus from the Iraqis.
Leo
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 | 01:10 AM
The Divine Proportion people. Well to me that's proof. But I find it interesting to think about. Hey admit it, it's something to think about!

I think it's awesome. If you don't know what it is then google it. Amazing!

Actually, Christmas is considered a religious holiday, the only reason they call it a commercial holiday is because it's the biggest spending time of the year. But it's purpose is, I guess supposedly religious.

I thought atheists were all about making it so people wouldn't believe in myths yet, charybdis is celebrating Christmas. ?????????????????????????????????????
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 | 10:42 AM
You consider Christmas a religious holiday. I don't, so for me it isn't. I buy people presents, they buy me presents. We're both happy. I even decorate using pagan imagery, much like most Christians, but that doesn't make either of us pagans.

You celebrate it the way you want and I'll celebrate it the way I want.

I never said that I believe in the myth, now did I? Do you believe in Santa Claus? If not, do you still pretend that he's real at times? There's a difference between celebrating a myth for what it is and celebrating it as if it were the Truth. One is in good fun, the other is a sign of mental fallibility. I don't believe that pigs can talk either, but I still enjoyed the movie <i>Babe</i>.

As for the Divine Proportion - I can pick my nose. That's an ugly view of the universe. That proves that God doesn't exist.

Makes as much sense as your argument.
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