MOH Forum: Prove God Exists and Get $1,000,000

Prove God Exists and Get $1,000,000

Posted By:
Lord Lucan
in somewhere strange
Jan 12, 2005

<a href="http://www.thinkandreason.com/" title="Think and Reason">Think and Reason</a> is offering $1,000,000 if you can<b> prove</b> that God exists. There are conditions attached. But they do say: <i>"All you have to do is prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God exists. It is really that easy!"</i>

Is there really this money sitting waiting?

Supposing I said I was God - and prove I exist (should be easy) - is the money mine?

Category: Money, Religion; Replies: 1406

Comments

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David B.	Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 \| 04:00 AM Actually, when I look back at my post I did say "if you don't know who Onan is" when I meant "if anyone doesn't know who Onan is". It does rather make the post seem a bit confrontational when it wasn't meant to be. Obviously, being English, we are both highly educated, erudite and impeccably mannered. And have the same accent as either Alec Guiness, Richard Burton or Alan Rickman; depending on our degree of relatedness to the Queen. Probably needn't have put anything at all, but I do like to drive home the point that on(an)tologists are a total bunch of w**kers.
lindsay	Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 \| 11:06 PM Now when they say God do they mean the real "God" or just that there is a god its very obvious that there must be some sort of God. A God could be defined as a supernatural being who execeds the boundries of humans. I would like to take everything back to the very beginning where everything started. Even if you believe in evolution you have to believe in God becuase if there is no God there is no universe. Everything is created from something. Wether it's mixing different spices or different molecules, anything that has humanly boundries cannot created from nothing. You cannot make a molecule from nothing at all. I would like to use the bug bang hteory as an example. If everything came fro ma super dense peice of matter then where did the matter come from? Did it create itself? Or did something create it. If it created itself then it excedes the limitations of a human and must be a God. If something created it then the same questions must be asked for it, so on and so forth. So basically there must be a God bc everything had to start from somewhere which means that a supernatural being of somesort created itself/hes been aroudn forever I can most certainly debate the fact that my God is real but I think that is enough...you can argue ur points on it...i dont feel like writing anything else right now
lindsay	Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 \| 11:09 PM lol that was supposed to be the big bang theory not the bug bang theory 😜
crankymediaguy	Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 \| 12:22 AM Lindsay said: "So basically there must be a God bc everything had to start from somewhere which means that a supernatural being of somesort created itself/hes been aroudn forever" Do you see the flaw in your own argument, Lindsay? "Everything had to start from somewhere" yet God has been around forever. See the problem with that? You can't have it both ways.
Captain Al in Vancouver Island, Canada Member	Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 \| 08:53 AM Lindsay, your argument is the old "center of the universe" syndrome again. The arrogance of mankind knows no bounds. Do other species have the same problem? Take bees and ants, for instance. They live in complex structured societies with leaders, workers, engineering projects going on, etc. They probably are not even aware of the higher forms of life around them. One of those worker ants might walk across a runway while a Boeing 747 lands. The context of such things would be far beyond its comprehension. My point is, whatever the orgin of the universe, chances are, man is probably not even capable of understanding it. In the face of such futility, humans invent gods and demons to explain it. Now that we are in the 21st century, surely we can put those primitive ideas behind us.
Lindsay	Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 \| 01:04 PM Im sorry i didnt really elaborate or explain my thought well. I was in a very tired mood but what was going through my mind was that everything within the boundries of humans must have a beginning. I see the flaw in my explanation that I gave and its my fault for saying it wrong. But thats why there must be a God. There has to be a supernatural being ( a God) that created itself or has been around forever. Otherwise nothing would be here because humans or any other beings known to mankind cannot make themselves from nothing or have no begining at all, just have always been. A God could do this becuase it does not have limitations like we do. There must be a God because the universe is to complex for there to not be a God. Im sorry if once again I havent made myself clear.
lindsay	Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 \| 01:21 PM why would we have to invent Gods? To satisfy our curious minds bc no other explanation can be offered? No I believe that Godless science is the easy way out. Science is trying to explain things far beyond our comrehension and come up with estranged explanations for it. Why is it that athiest scientist are so determined to prove that the miracles and supernatural hapenings of Christ are wrong? The truth is that once you involve yourself in Christianity and Christ you are yeilding to a higher power and admitting that you will never understand most of things that happen in the universe. I have a few arguments against theories and such things but my heart really lies in a much more passionette area that involves not knowing the secrets of the universe. It is much easier to make the universe into something that you can understand rather than admit that their is a higher power and unexplanable miracels. If anyone would really like to argue the true heart of a christian which involves every aspect of this thread than I am open to it. later im out
Faith Dennison	Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 \| 01:25 PM I agree with Lindsay!
Boo in The Land of the Haggii... Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 03:13 AM I don't agree with Lindsay!
Captain Al in Vancouver Island, Canada Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 08:48 AM I agree with Boo.
Faith	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 09:54 AM it does depend on what you mean in God. God as in many Gods because there were alot of Gods in Greek terms. But now if you mean God as in the creator the Trinity,Father (God),Son (Jesus),Holy Spirit. Yes he is real. Just read the Bible! I believe that the whole Bible is true. Really how could matter make itself someone had to make it and Jesus/God/Holy Spirit is the beginning and the end the Alfa and Omega. So once the world comes to an end you have choice, to go to heaven or hell. heaven-you will live eternily with God in heaven. But hell-you will die over and over again and burn every second of your life....your choice because GOD gave you a free will when he created you.
Boo in The Land of the Haggii... Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 12:41 PM But now if you mean God as in the creator the Trinity,Father (God),Son (Jesus),Holy Spirit. Yes he is real. Just read the Bible! That's nice. Proof please. Not a reiteration of your beliefs, but proof.
Rob Lundy	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 12:53 PM Prove he Does NOT exist and I will give you $10,000,000!!!
Citizen Premier in spite of public outcry Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 01:44 PM Well, there is plenty of scientific proof that the universe is over 6,000 years old. But no Christian I have ever met has accepted this as proof against Yaweh/Jehova/whatever. I think many religious people have adopted the maxim "Ignorance is Strength," without realizing that leaves them more open to exploitation.
lindsay	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 01:55 PM no please i would like to hear cold hard evidense why my God doesnt exist before this thread goes anywhere else 😏
skepticality Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 02:01 PM <quote>no please i would like to hear cold hard evidense why my God doesnt exist before this thread goes anywhere else</quote> That isn't how logic works. There is a reason why in court you don't say: "Prove why you are innocent, or you go to jail." In science, logic, and the REAL WORLD, you prove your theory has merit. You don't get to make ignorant statements like; "I'm not having this conversation until YOU prove MY idea is incorrect." No, YOU prove your idea is correct. That is the whole problem here. Too many people believe they have the right to tell others what to do based on this flimsy concept of; "Until you can prove my made-up stuff wrong... I get to say it is all real, and pass laws and govern what is right and wrong." Nope, doesn't fly when the brains kick in.
Boo in The Land of the Haggii... Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 02:03 PM Heh. Thanks, skepticality. You put it better than I was going to. Cheers!
crankymediaguy	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 02:32 PM Lindsay said: "no please i would like to hear cold hard evidense why my God doesnt exist before this thread goes anywhere else" As has been said here by others, that isn't how debate works. YOU are the one claiming the existance of God, therefore it's up to YOU to prove that He DOES exist. Don't understand the principle here? Allow me to demonstrate. I say there are flying monkeys on the dark side of the Moon. Prove absolutely that I'm wrong. Oh, you can't? Well, that means that there ARE flying monkeys on the dark side of the moon. I win! Get it now?
skepticality Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 02:35 PM Man, that busts our next radio show crankymediaguy! We were going to explain how the flying monkeys were a myth and how it was all crap... Now, you've proven they exist... since I can't fly out and look at the other side of the moon today.
lindsay	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 02:36 PM dont twist my words i never said that you had to i said it i said that i would like to hear it ok lol well then i suppose i can start a thread asking you to prove why God doesnt exist becuase i rarely hear people making that argument. lol you prove to me that beyond a shawdow of doubt he isnt real
crankymediaguy	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 02:41 PM Faith said: "if you mean God as in the creator the Trinity,Father (God),Son (Jesus),Holy Spirit. Yes he is real. Just read the Bible!" So, your "argument" is that because something is written in a book, it must be true? OK, if I go to the library or Amazon.com and find a book that makes a logical, persuasive argument that there is no God, THAT must be true, right? I mean, it's in a BOOK! Using your "logic," do I win because I found my book last or is it a tie? Your "argument" appears to be: It's in the Bible, therefore I believe it; I believe it because it's in the Bible. Please look up "circular reasoning." You have the right to believe anything you want as far as I'm concerned; please do not pretend that your belief is based on any FACTS, however. You believe in absolute nonsense because you WANT TO. Period.
skepticality Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 02:44 PM "ok lol well then i suppose i can start a thread asking you to prove why God doesnt exist becuase i rarely hear people making that argument. lol you prove to me that beyond a shawdow of doubt he isnt real" So that is how you want court to work as well. Guilty until proven innocent? Well, I guess the religious zealots had it that way once before didn't they? The world was so great when all we had to do was prove that God didn't exist. And when we don't... you have the right to hang us all!
Lindsay Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 02:57 PM lol dont be difficult im genuinly curious. why is that you should be right until i prove you wrong? im sry but that sounds slightly arrogant..and im sure you arent. "And when we don't... you have the right to hang us all!" dont forget the persecution of christians i know faith and she doesnt believe it for nothing shes had experinces is it her fault that shes 12 and not knoweldgable enough to back it up by fact? i know that its difficult for you to believe but there are things that are true that you cant understand. Shes physically witnessed him..not with her eyes...but with other senses. That is why she knows that God is real. Not because of science. Not becuase of history. Because of what she has been through. No one will ever be able to tell either of us that what we have felt, heard, sensed and been led by was not God. If God isnt real than im not either..and i will always be that sure. God has always bee there for us both.
Faith	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 02:59 PM The Bible is just one example why I believe that God is real. I have had alot of experiences that leave me to believe that God is real.I have seen and heard many miracles that couldn't have just been coincidence. My grandmother was in a car and behind a semi truck. The truck made a sharp turn and the back was moving way too close to the car! But the semi just stopped about 4 inches from the car. Now that was God! Their was nothing else there no person no other car to save them it wasn't coincindence it was God!
David B. Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 03:57 PM Pointless as I know this to be...[1] I believe that the whole Bible is true. Point noted; I'll come back to that. Really how could matter make itself someone had to make it and Jesus/God/Holy Spirit is the beginning and the end the Alfa [it's Alpha] and Omega. 1) Matter makes itself all the time and virtually everywhere. The most powerful physical phenomena in the known universe, black holes, evaporate to nothing because this is so. I am of course talking of <a href="http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/VirtualParticle.html">virtual particles</a>. This is of course an aside, argument from a principle of first cause is invalid because wherever you draw your line and say this where 'God' kicks it all off, there is no logical reason why someone can't ask 'and who kicked off God?'. The usual arguments against a precedent cause to God invariably involve 'special pleading'; basically you make God an exception by definition after arguing that physics cannot 'logically' do the same. 2) Even accepting a need for a first cause (some physicists do), not one iota of evidence points to it being your God. You have faith, great, fine, proves nothing. You asked to hear "cold, hard evidence" of why your God doesn't exist; easy, peasy, Vishnu did not order Brahma to create him.
David B. Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 03:59 PM Pointless as I know this to be...[2] So once the world comes to an end you have choice, to go to heaven or hell. [...] Your choice because GOD gave you a free will when he created you. Ah, but you don't believe in free will, you believe in the bible, the whole bible, you said so. This would be the same bible that makes some very specific prophecies about the future. Now if I really had free will I could decide to take a short-cut tomorrow, one that would lead to me accidentally mowing down a young child. Perhaps I might be so overcome by remorse I'd change my ways and lead a good, Christian life. Ah, but those peculiar prophesies are still there aren't they. God has already ordained the future, "and out of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand had been sealed". Except if one of those 12,000 was to be the child I run down tomorrow, in which case there'll only be 11,999! Or perhaps the child's son was destined to be the anti-Christ? So either: - 1) God will take the top 12,000 Reubenites however many have been mowed down in acts of free-will, which is a bit 'slap-dash'. 2) God will prevent the child from playing in the road that day so as to preserve the prophesy, so she doesn't have free will then. 3) God will prevent me from taking that turning, so I don't have free will then. 4) God will just pick some other convenient sap to give birth to the anti-Christ, being careful to fulfil the prophesies of course. So God is actively conniving and tweaking a world full of free-thinking beings to make His prophecy of a world-shattering evil come about is he? 5) Free will is an illusion and we all invariably fulfil our parts in God's grand design. So God writes the script, and I follow it flawlessly, therefore I go to hell and burn forever. What, and he wants worshipping for this?! Even the weakest interaction has startling ramifications. God sends a frog, the frog lures the child, the child steps out of the road and I'd don't run her down. Great for the child, but now God has removed my shot at redemption. If God knows the outcomes of His actions perfectly, there is no free will; if He does not, then His every action could precipitate my sin.
David B. Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 04:00 PM Pointless as I know this to be...[3] Why is it that atheist scientist are so determined to prove that the miracles and supernatural happenings of Christ are wrong? Most of them couldn't give a monkey's, actually. Most scientists I know are far more interested in understanding gravity waves, the human genome, climate change, the use of AI in HMI, and numerous other things. With the possible exception of Richard Dawkins, we're much too busy to bother with, God, Jesus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, or any other unprovable belief. I have a few arguments against theories and such things but my heart really lies in a much more passionette area that involves not knowing the secrets of the universe. Ignorance is bliss; and so is a 25 mg/ml solution of morphine. It is much easier to make the universe into something that you can understand rather than admit that their is a higher power and unexplanable miracels. This is so wrong as to approach a new record of wrongness. It is far, far, *far, far* easier to have a supernatural explanation to everything than to actually try to find out the natural one. If you go down the science route, you'll someday be called on to (gasp) prove your 'beliefs', and even explain them to someone else well enough that he can prove them when he doesn't even believe them. Modern physics accepts that some of its hypotheses may never be proven because it is so near to technically impossible to do so; and even amongst the theories, most physicists specialize early on simply because they could not comprehend it all. Faith you simply have, proof you have to work for.
Lindsay Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 04:07 PM lol nice try God knows what you will choose. He knows what you are going to do today tomorrow and everyday. Therefore he can say what will happen to everyone tomorrow and everyday. he can prophecy without messing up your freewill. So is every true christian in the world a phyco? weve all had experinces where we know its God. there is an undeniable presence in my life. Why is it htat when i praise his name and no one elses that I feel a supernaturaly presence all around me? You cannot begin to imaagine what his annointing feels like. And everytime i praise him its there. why are my prayers answered?
Lindsay Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 04:15 PM lol well im a kid and have a long time to get that proof taht i no is out there somewhere my point is that you arent willing to believe things unless it can be explained in way that you will understand it. youre not ever going to understand everything so then you just wont believe some things becuase of that? come on you are smarter than that. you know that you cant know everything..just cuz you cant explain it doesnt mean its not true. that was my point
David B. Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 04:38 PM Pointless as I know this to be...[4] dont be difficult im genuinly curious. why is that you should be right until i prove you wrong? im sry but that sounds slightly arrogant..and im sure you arent. Ah, 'the balance of reason', to quote A. C. Grayling (for the second time in one day, wow), "[...] anyone can put a point of view, but no one can force another to accept it. The only coercion should be that of argument, the only obligation should be to honest reasoning." It's the honest reasoning bit. Rationalists hold (rightly or wrongly) that their views are the product of sound reasoning, physicist have come to their view of the universe by a combined process of reason and experiment. We believe the things we do because we believe the evidence we have accumulated for them. We believe this evidence as a group, in effect taking many things on trust, because any of us can look at the evidence for themselves, repeat the experiments, challenge the assumptions, or pick apart the reasoning. This is what (most) of us do to our own beliefs, so don't get too huffy if we do it to yours. If you can't produce evidence another person can inspect, it isn't evidence it's... hold on... ...Sorry for that, but I just looked out of the window and saw Shiva flying past in a wheel of fire. He even waved at me with two of his four arms. Now in the face of such incontrovertible evidence I'm sure you, me, Faith and grandma will all be converting to Hinduism tomorrow! No?! And that's the point.
David B. Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 04:45 PM God knows what you will choose. He knows what you are going to do today tomorrow and everyday. Therefore he can say what will happen to everyone tomorrow and everyday. he can prophecy without messing up your freewill. I have no free will. My choices today, tomorrow and everyday are already a matter of record. God knows them, I can chose no other course of action other than the one God knows. When the moment comes for me to chose I will chose as God expects, not because I will it but because I can do nothing else. Thousands of years before my birth God knew everyone of my actions throughout my life, yet still he made me as I am. God is therefore responsible for my life, I am not. Well, thank God for that! I think I'll go and kill a granny because God decided I should! P.S. Unless you have a specific counter-argument to the 'Open Theism' coda, I'd do a bit more reading and a bit less mouthing-off if I were you.
Lindsay Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 05:10 PM lol well did u really see em? ummm nooo open up your mind ...you have freewill if u didnt then u would be serving him now. maybe its weird for u to understand but knows what u will do..hes not changing it..he just knows..therefore he can say wat u will do bc no matter wat u will do it. its ur choice...lets say you read a book and you were talking to someone else who hadnt read the book yet..you know what will happen but that doesnt change the text. now lets say that you told the person currently reading the book that one of the main characters was going trip over a shoe. Would your words make the person trip? No. You just know its going to happen becuase u have read the book and the other person hasnt maybe me encountering God is my proof..but no ive said that quite a bit havent i? me encountering God could never make it so that God is real..theories are right? You know I think its ridiculas to think that there is no God. The complexity of our minds... We take in millions of information per second. We have emotions. Passions..universal truths of right and wrong. There are things about the placement of the planets and moon and the ditance of our atmosphere and food and water that could not be coincidental. its completely perfect for our living conditions.. the perfection of this could not be from coincidence or chance. It had to have been planned...if we come from something that does not feel emotions..love...passions..right or wrong then why do we?
skepticality Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 06:32 PM "And when we don't... you have the right to hang us all!" dont forget the persecution of christians Yes, it happened... not by Atheists... but by... ANOTHER religion! Woo hoo! And then, didn't the Christians do that to other religions a few times? That is the point, I don't care if it is Christian, Jewish, whatever, all religions have, through history prosecuted each other. And pretty much all have at one point or another used Atheists as a common enemy, often attaching 'Doubt' and reason to 'Satan', or some other evil that must be stamped out, or converted. "You know I think its ridiculas to think that there is no God. The complexity of our minds... We take in millions of information per second. We have emotions. Passions..universal truths of right and wrong. There are things about the placement of the planets and moon and the ditance of our atmosphere and food and water that could not be coincidental. its completely perfect for our living conditions.. the perfection of this could not be from coincidence or chance. It had to have been planned...if we come from something that does not feel emotions..love...passions..right or wrong then why do we?" Very, very weak argument... It has been tried time and time again. But there is nothing 'mystical' about how our planet is here. It is like saying that there must be a God because someone wins the lottery now and then, out of those millions and millions of numbers. SOMEONE wins. Yes, someone wins... we won one of the draws in the BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of stars and planets and 'chances' there were in the Galaxy. Just because science has not, yet, learned why some things happen, does not prove that God exists, in even the smallest way. There have been entire religions based on gods that made Volcanos 'angry', the Roman Church once prosecuted people for saying the Earth was not the center of the universe... When we found out how things really worked, then what? Oh, thats right, move on to the 'magic' of birth... Wait, we figured that one out now as well... Lets move on to something else we haven't learned and then point to that as the reason why God exists. It doesn't add up. So, do you think we should stop scientific research, so that we don't uncover any more of 'Gods Secrets'? That might sound crazy, but I hear it, even from our President.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 06:39 PM "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -- Susan B. Anthony 1896
Lindsay Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 07:23 PM the reason that people try to convert you is that christians believe in this place called "hell" where you burn in torment for all of eternity..we dont want you there.. Why is it that we have emotions? Why does the product of an emotionless, lifeless, incabale of thought peice of matter (or w/e u believe) have emotions, by definition "life", and thought? The physical aspects of us can be argued about with evolution but where did our strong sense of justice, logic, and ect ect.. come from? "Very, very weak argument... It has been tried time and time again. But there is nothing 'mystical' about how our planet is here. It is like saying that there must be a God because someone wins the lottery now and then, out of those millions and millions of numbers. SOMEONE wins." umm no sorry. the lottery DESIGNED so that someone will win.DESIGNED. It may be chance that you win, but its not chance that someone won. in your belief the universe was not designed so then why would anyplace have perftect living conditions? everyhting about our solor system is freakishly coincidental to what we need to survive..could it really be by accident? becuase it looks designed to me. please correct me if i am wrong but unless there is a supernatural being that can undermine the laws of the universe than they should be unbreakable right? There should never be "miracles" because miracles go against the natural order of the universe. if there is no God (suprnatural being) to break the laws than how are the laws broken? You always say no miracles...can you not explain them? Theres a man that my youth pastor has met before that has laid hands on the dead and prayed to God, commaned the body to come to life and the body came to life...when he called on his name that is...and no this is no lie i could probly find a written acount of it somewhere. How did these people come back to life? is it mere coincidence that it was done in my God's name?(yes i know that is odd lol) There was a study taht showed when people spoke in tongues their immune system was inhansed by 30%..
Lindsay Member	Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 \| 07:28 PM http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html?GCID=S15542x002-IsThere&KEYWORD=proof that god exists this support some what ive said... oo ya i meant incapable...it was kinda buggin me..
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 03:53 AM Lindsay said: "There was a study taht showed when people spoke in tongues their immune system was inhansed by 30%.." Oh? And where may I read about this peer-reviewed study? It WAS peer-reviewed, right? How was it conducted? How can anyone quantify exactly how much a person's immune system is "inhansed" [sic]? Were the subjects and a control group injected with a virus and then studied? How was the 30% figure determined? If you haven't figured it out yet, I don't believe there ever has been any such scientific study. If I'm wrong, please tell me where I can find information about it--or is this one of those "I have a friend who told me he met a guy who read this somewhere" kind of things? By the way, my recent "correction" was unnecessary. After review, I realized I didn't make the mistake I thought I did. As I pointed out, it really doesn't matter; my original point was correct.
Boo in The Land of the Haggii... Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 04:09 AM Theres a man that my youth pastor has met before that has laid hands on the dead and prayed to God, commaned the body to come to life and the body came to life...when he called on his name that is...and no this is no lie i could probly find a written acount of it somewhere. Please do. I'd be fascinated to see some corroboration of this 'friend of a friend' story.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 04:17 AM Lindsay said: "Theres a man that my youth pastor has met before that has laid hands on the dead and prayed to God, commaned the body to come to life and the body came to life...when he called on his name that is...and no this is no lie i could probly find a written acount of it somewhere. How did these people come back to life?" Let's assume for a moment that this story isn't a complete fairy tale. How do you know that the man was dead? Was a doctor present? Did the doctor pronounce the man deceased? How long had the man been dead? What was the cause of death? Yes, all those questions are valid. Lindsay, I'm sure you're a lovely young woman, but in my opinion, you are FAR too credulous.
David B. Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 04:17 AM lets say you read a book and you were talking to someone else who hadnt read the book yet..you know what will happen but that doesnt change the text. now lets say that you told the person currently reading the book that one of the main characters was going trip over a shoe. Would your words make the person trip? No. Okay, let's use your example. Does knowing the person in the book will trip make him trip? No. Could the person in the book stop, look down at the ground, see the obstacle and step round it? No. Could the person in the book do anything differently? No. Could the person in the book exercise any act of will other that those described in the book? No. Could the person in the book
David B. Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 04:38 AM Basically, a humanist's question would be, "Is it reasonable to belive in a god?" So, is it reasonable to believe in God? I will assume your answer is 'yes'. So belief in God is 'reasonable'? Again, I assume the answer is 'yes'. So belief in God is 'governed by or being in accordance with reason or sound thinking' (by definition)? Still 'yes' I presume? What then is the argument of reason to believe in God? "I had a personal experiece of..." isn't an argument of reason, it's a testamonial. "Because you can't prove..." isn't an argument of reason, it's a fallacy of absence, and so on. There are hundreds of very old, very well known and totally unreasonable 'proofs' of God. It needs a simple, rational, reasonable argument to make your point. Otherwise, and in the absence of any personal experience of God, I will continue to consider your belief in Him unreasonable (n.b. not wrong mind you, just not reasonable).
Lindsay Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 09:54 AM lol i was at convention and the pastor told us aobut it. it is a real study and i guess ill have to ask my youth leader if she can find it im sry i should have stated before that most of the people that were resurected where at their funeral(ya i no everyone in the youth department thought it was a bit unconventional to) sooo if a man is having a funeral i think its pretty safe to assume that he was dead lol ok so i guess i wont be as gullible as to believe my youth pastor anymore..hes a good man. honest. smart. he did no this guy and it did happen. people in my church were skeptical at first and i no how strange it sounds but then again who are we to say wat is strange. we didnt make the universe. once again everything must agreee with your mind. the fact that i understand this and you dont is sorta funny. do you have an imagination? if you do then please use it for a moment becuase God isnt bound by your little definitions and thoeries. God knows all. do understand? God is God. has no boundries. its not impossible to believe that he knows everything. now if you didnt have freewill then you would be worshiping God right now. your future is not your furute becuase someone says it is it your future becuase its the course that your life will take. if someone goes to a fortuane teller and asks if hell marry his girlfirned and the fortuane teller reads his future and says no then did the fortuane teller make it happen? no. if a human can look into the future why can God not? think about it for a moment. if God could force you to do things why he force you to not love him? he wants your love. why would he push it away? God isnt bound by human logic and reasoning...nor is the universe its funny how everything in the universe that you will believe must. is anyone going to asnwer any of my questions that i previoiiusly asked? or are you ignoring them? im curious about the answer why is personal experince not reasonable? lol am i a crazy person?
Boo in The Land of the Haggii... Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 10:03 AM 1) Again, I'd love to see the study (truly), and would appreciate it if you can track it down. 2) We only have your word for this (resurrection). 3)Yes, I have an imagination. But I also have a healthy level of skepticism. And, of course, if it were true, then what does imagination have to do with it? 4) If you'd like to restate your questions, I'll certainly give it a bash. I'm finding it a little difficult to follow your syntax and, since you're posting essentially the same 'arguments' on three threads, I can't remember what precisely the questions in this one were. 5) Are you a crazy person? I wouldn't know. You're an anonymous typist on the internet. You could be anybody. You could be a man, a retiree, anything. Do you see why we can't take your word for this kind of thing?
skepticality Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 10:13 AM the fact that i understand this and you dont is sorta funny. do you have an imagination? Now I have to use my imagination to prove things? Carl Sagan: "Hey, I imagined I could levatate." This months featured story on Scientific America "Man has the power of levitation." Then, when asked to 'prove' he can levitate... Carl just says... "Dude, prove I can't." and sits in his chair and smirks. Do you know how crazy you sound?
David B. Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 10:21 AM Lindsay, God is not bound by your definitions either. So I can define God to be nothing, therefore he doesn't exist. I win! Hooray! if you didnt have freewill then you would be worshiping God right now Perhaps God doesn't want me to? God knew I wouldn't before He even made me, yet He made me the same anyway. Therefore my non-belief is because of God, therefore it is God's will. Like I said before, this is just pointless. You define free-will to be 'something we have' then claim that is proof we have it. You are typing (very nearly) in English, these words have specific meanings, you can even look them up as thoughtful people have produced big lists of these words, their meanings (and spellings) called dictionaries. why is personal experince not reasonable? lol am i a crazy person? Yes, you are. God just told me so. He said you sinned against Him by saying 'lol' too often. This is my personal experience. If you believe it is reasonable eveidence, and you believe in God, then He has given you your answer.
Lindsay Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 10:33 AM you dont have to prove things with your imagination but i told you to use it becuase all it seems that youre able to do is make everything fit within your mind. obviously you werent able to undeertand the concept of "God" and realize that he doesnt have to fit into your reasoning and definitions so i told you to use your imaginiaiton. nvm i will just be misunderstood. alright ill have to find this stuff. then dont trust my word trust the words of all of the other people who have had contact with God. im not a man im a 14 year old girl i have no reason to lie about that on here so hopefully you can believe me. lol so as well as being gullible and illogical i now sound crazy. i smirk when i read this becuase i find it funny that such intelegent people cannot open their minds to new ways of thinking. so far all that i have seen is you trying to make the everything fit into your mind. it never will. you wont ever understand everything there will never be proof for everything. that way of thinking is arrogant and honestly a little simple minded. if you arent going to trust people words on here then you arent going to get anywhere. in court they call witnesses to the stand to testify becuase they hae "witnessed" something of importance. ive heard this compared to court many times so then why are personal experinces not relevent. the rules of the universe are broken all the time so why cant your rules? all of your definitions and theories never make room miracles that really do happen. you cant ignore them and pretend that they arent there cuz they are. experince should be more of a fact than your theories anyday. the universe is not fitting into your mind...stop trying to make it. miracles break the natural order of things...they defy the laws of the universe. therefore laws can be broken in the universe and so can your laws.
Lindsay Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 10:42 AM "Perhaps God doesn't want me to? God knew I wouldn't before He even made me, yet He made me the same anyway. Therefore my non-belief is because of God, therefore it is God's will." you see this were you dont understand God and you need to not say anything if you dont. thank you for the wonderful point. "God knew I wouldn't before He even made me, yet He made me the same anyway." he wasnt going to change you so that you would worship him. he wanted to make you like this. youre your own person. why would he cahnge you? to defy your freewill? no and he didnt. you have your own decisions. God doesnt make them for you...the bible says that every knee will bow and declare him God so if you were going to say something along those lines then theres that. proof that one day you will you believe that God is real. please dont make a debate outta that. you just proved that you have free will. God wants you with him and he hasnt done anything to make you be with him. youve choosen not to. he simply knows that you wouldnt have choosen. umm ya the onoly definition of God is the one that I have in his word. the bible. hes true because i have communicated with him and it wasnt buddah or any one else.
X in McKinney, TX Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 10:42 AM Wow, for a 14 yr. old, she just made a great assumption. Remember people, stepping all over someones beliefs is not a good thing to do. Now, if a person or group says your beliefs are wrong, you do get somewhat offended. Some Christians honestly believe they are trying to save you from damnation when they are witnessing to you, as Lindsay is doing now, some actually care for people. They shouldn't be dumped on "Unless" they start to judge you which ALOT of Christians do, even though they are told specifically in the bible not to do that. She is only defending her beliefs.
X in McKinney, TX Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 10:46 AM But also Lindsay, you need to be careful where you tread....Many in here are intelligent. Also the comment made by you about having an open mind on new ideas is not exactly being observed by you. This is a problem most Christians have.
X in McKinney, TX Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 10:47 AM This is a problem, I personally, like to point out when being witnessed to.
Lindsay Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 11:22 AM i try and keep my mind open. i have a thread asking people to tell me why my God isnt real and so far no one has. thank you for pointing that out though because i do things and dont realize it. if im not being open minded then i want to no and thank you for telling me. you see i change quite a lot and when im wrong i change my views. its different when it involves my God though because he has touched my life so greatly. i honestly dont believe that anyone will ever be able to make me believe that my God isnt real but if they think that they can then i want them to take a shot at it. its something that i want to be open to becuase im tired of being accused of blindly following God. My God is real and I know that since that is true i should be able to defend him. With teenagers i can...but you are very intellegent people and i assume that the ones who comment the most are adults..if ur not then you are a genious kid lol. i try and defend God but the fact that im young and not as smart as an adult does make it difficult. i actually want to thank you for pointing out the wholes in my theories even though you were trying to disprove them itll help me later in life. most christians that witness are trying to save you no matter how odd that sounds. and believe it or not i really do care about you. i dont want any of you to go to hell but i know that anyone who will be able to change your mind is going to have match you intellectually. sorry if i came off wrong I dont want to insult anyone. ok before i said anything further i just wanted to clear that up. please if im wrong about something cotninue to tell me..i no you will lol. but please be open minded to what i say..i will do my best to be for you although i dont think that you will cahnge my belief lol
X in McKinney, TX Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 11:27 AM After that being said, time to get back on topic. (I am guilty of going Off Topic as well)
Lindsay Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 11:34 AM alright then so what problems are there with the last thing that was said before we went off topic lol
X in McKinney, TX Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 12:08 PM It was heading in that direction.
David B. Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 12:53 PM The distinction Lindsay seems not to be getting is between 'destined' and 'forced'. I walk into through a turnstile and into a room, there are two doors, let's call them A and B. Thousands of years ago, before I walked into that room, before I knew of that room, before I was even born, God knew I would exit it through door A. So when I walk into that room I am faced with a choice; do I exit it through A or B? I could use any number of factors to decide, perhaps there are signs on the door, or one looks grubbier than the other? Perhaps there's a cobweb over one that I don't wish to disturb? Perhaps Bertrand Bottomly from Bolton just beat my bum with a brick-bat and I'm feeling a bit B-phobic? Or maybe Betty Beany just blew me a big balloon and I'm feeling a bit B-philic? So many factors to influence my decision, so much free-will on my part. But I'm not going to choose B am I? I never was going to choose B? It was always going to be A. However much it appears to you or me that I've exercised free-will, the number of possible choices actually available to me was 1. If the outcome of an event is, has or can be determined with perfect accuracy before the event has taken place then there is no room left for free-will, chance, happenstance or anything else. If God knew perfectly that I was going to choose A then the probability of me choosing B is zero, and the probability of me choosing A is one. Whatever it felt like to me, I had no choice in the matter. Before I was born and the room was built I was going to walk through door A. The limits (or lack of them) on God are not really relevant here. Substitute God with definitely mortal and limited Doctor Who and the same argument applies. It is the fact that the future is knowable that is the problem, not the facilities of the knower. If the future is knowable then my actions and choices are unable to change it, if they could then the future might at any second change from the 'known' one. If my actions and choices are unable to change the future then I can't really have free will, all the actions or choices that might change the future are not open to me. However formulated, the problem continues to exist. If God gave me free will, can I do something God didn't expect? If the answer is no, then I can only do things God expects (n.b. expects, not causes). But that is a constraint on what I can do, hence my will is not free.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 06:31 PM To the believers: We point out that merely making an assertion does not constitute proof of anything. You respond by making an assertion. We point out that repeating an assertion does not constitute proof. You respond by repeating your assertion. We point out that sincere belief does not constitute proof of anything. You respond by reasserting your sincerity. We point out that the number of people who believe in something does not constitute proof of anything. You respond by talking about how many people share your belief. We point out that the mere fact that something is written in a book does not constitute proof of anything. You respond by telling us to read the Bible. We ask you to provide a fact, one single fact, to back up the things you believe. You respond by saying that facts and evidence aren't necessary. Then you follow up by saying, "How can you not believe after all the evidence we've shown you?" And you wonder why you can't convince us?
Lindsay Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 09:36 PM maybe you should define what you call proof. in court personal testimony is consdered proof and here it is not. its safe to say that people have encountered God considering all of the christians there have ever been and how common the contact with God comes to a christian. if you want scientific evidense then as i have stated before that is not going to happen. the universe wont fit into your mind...it never will...God isnt bound by your logic seeing as he is God. there are supernatural occurances that defy the laws of the universe so you really cant say what can and cant happen. there have been miracles and that means that things are able to break out of the rules..why does that happen? what overrides these rules? things are supposed to be a certain way and yet the rules are broken.
skepticality Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 09:47 PM in court personal testimony is consdered proof Actually, it is not. It 'could' be called 'evidence' but even then, it is not. Personal Testimony is not taken as proof, or even testimony. It is only supportive evidence. AND usually, if you want to win your case, you better hove more than one witness. AND you better be darn sure they have no skeletons in the closet, cause they will get shredded on the stand. You usually cannot convict someone from visual land personal testimony. You can only use such testimony to help 'support' a claim you already have EVIDENCE for. Derek Colanduno <a href="http://www.skepticality.com/">Skepticality Radio Show</a>
Lindsay Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 09:54 PM David if God were forcing you to do things then he would force you to follow him. God knows you better than you know yourself. He made you...formed every aspect of your being. He knows if you would choose chocolate over vanilla icecream becuase he knows you. He gave you a personality and body and every other part of you..that part he did control but after that he let you do what ever you wanted to do. he let you choose your belief over him. note the word choose. any moment you want to you can choose to stick out your tongue or to not. God knows all he doesnt force all just knows it... God is not bound by anything he can do what he wants so he can defy our logic and know a thousand years before you do anything that you will do it without changing your decision. time is not a factor to God. its stupid to think that God wouldnt know what you were going to do..God knows all..if you cant be open minded enough to realize that then im dissapointed i realize what youre saying but its God not a human ur not going to agree with this and im going on vacation so it may be best to drop unless anyone else wants to deabte you about it but i sincerly doubt that
skepticality Member	Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 \| 09:56 PM God is not bound by anything he can do what he wants so he can defy our logic and know a thousand years before you do anything that you will do it without changing your decision So, we don't have free will then? You can't have your cake and eat it too...
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