Vampire Sites

Here is a favorite of mine, I love the ToV commandments. Nothing against this person, he has actually made me chuckle more than once.

http://www.satannet.com/profile.php?user=BlasphemousOne&v=friends&s=&p=2

Make sure you click on the "profile" tab once you go to the page.

http://www.satannet.com/profile.php?user=BlasphemousOne&v=friends&s=&p=2

Then again, it's a chicken or the egg situation. Did Nemo use his reputation to get this far- or did the TOV serve as proof he was worthy for the priesthood?

Remember, the COS philosophy is based on the old game of the cold reader vs. the rube.

I must start off by saying that this is by far the most informative discussion I have come across thus far. There are many intelligent individuals here who have presented some interesting theories. Keep spreading awareness of this deceitful, criminal (yes I said criminal) mind numbing cult.

I was introduced to this silly cult by a ToV cabal (coven) that I met in the NYC goth scene. At first they seemed ok, then as I got to know them they felt more comfortable showing their true colors and all sorts of hypocrisies. The ToV's intolerance for illegal activity is actually a front. Nemo doesn't give a damn about what his followers are doing so long as they keep paying and they don't get caught by the authorities.

The group I know are the worse bunch of weak junkies I have ever seen and all three of the men in the group were proud pedophiles. I distanced myself from these people and they continued to try to infiltrate my parties and friends because their social lives sucked. All they had was each other and they didn't really like each other all that much. One of the guys in the group had a small son who he forced the religion on and also tried to encourage incest between him and the daughter he was planning to have with the woman he is with, so they they can "keep the bloodline going."

To be continued next post...

Continuing...

Disgusted with it all and wanting to rid them of my scene once and for all, I contacted a known CoS official. He saw their Myspace profiles contained some questionable photos. One girl was zombified on a bed in a K-hole (and it was obvious!!) and one guy had blood on his face and mouth from cutting an underaged girl during fetish play (which I was later told to me by this young girl that it was not consensual) and another pic of him smoking weed out of a pipe!

The CoS official made up a humorous blog warning all ToV members that these scum are in their group and he spread the pics all over myspace. ToV members were posting them on Lifeforce as well because they were upset. Guess what Nemo did?

You guessed it - NOTHING. Why? Because shortly before this occurred, this cabal have been non active for about 2 years, so to get back into Nemo's graces and not risk their immortality they all sent him a hefty donation of about $2000 and they all bought hardcover bibles (they are long-time members and they were still using the pamphlets before ToV could afford real books). I'm sure Nemo told all of his questioning members something to the effect of..." Don't listen to these silly humans who envious of us, blah blah blah...stick by your family!"

So they all got to keep their ranks, the chick who was photographed laying in a k-hole got bumped up to priestess and some ToV members left because they were so angry Nemo let them stay. It was this incident that prompted Nemo to instruct all members to add a disclaimer against illegal activities on their myspace profiles. When that myspace blog was going around with those photos, I saw that at least 50-70 ToV members deleted them. Once Nemo gave everyone the stick by your family speech, I saw some re-added the scumbags. It was the most pathetic display of mind control I have ever seen.

Now, I see many people here blaming the ToV for the CoS' demise. I think it's unfair to do so. The CoS is aware of ALL of this shit and they have their own dirt too. This is no experiment and there are no conspiracies. The CoS has become corrupt - the sooner we face that the better.

I have been involved in the Satanic community (there is one online even though they insist there is no such thing as a "Satanic community") for several years and before LaVey's death, there was ABSOLUTELY no evidence that suggests he knew of or approved of the ToV. No one knew about this cult until AFTER his death. And there was such a time almost a decade ago when one was able to speak about it freely or negatively on LttD.

Someone mentioned a few posts back how the ToV evolved from believing in real vampires into believing in metaphorical ones. This was done on purpose to attract more Satanists. It's so obvious.

In reply to Dracula777:

>>Then again, it's a chicken or the egg situation. Did Nemo use his reputation to get this far- or did the TOV serve as proof he was worthy for the priesthood?

Remember, the COS philosophy is based on the old game of the cold reader vs. the rube.<<

That's a very good question. I dug up a very old post that Nemo wrote on Alt.satanism in 1994. He was a CoS Priest at the time and this blog also confirms he was a past Temple of Set member because Micheal Aquino joins in on the topic and outs him on that! He also reveals that at one time the CoS was going bankrupt. Don't know how true this is, but it does seem to explain a motive for accepting ToV to provide a second income.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.satanism/browse_thread/thread/b306cd62c5d5b834/d0518c30eb950d8b

My gut tells me that present administration bought this cash cow. LaVey not once ever mentioned ToV nor was this cult really known before his death. It wasn't so long ago that ToV was using photocopied pamphlet type bibles instead of real books. They didn't have all that ToV merchandise either. Only the medallion.

90% of the Council of Nine is a member of the ToV. I also know good standing CoS members who were not invited to CoS cabals because they were non sympathetic to the ToV. Hence why no one ever mentions the elephant in the room on LttD.

I just think it's very dishonorable and unSatanic to deceive your own members like that. There are many people in this organization that put in hard earned money and contributions. It's so unfair they are being treated this way.

Pyramid system,

The one who pays has a rank,

but this rank only gives the member a certain feeling of importance within the circle...

and then,

Those higher ones suck dry their lives indeed : time, money, free publicity...True Vampires indeed... it works in a way.

Read some books about Tantrism, you will find the whole so called Annunaki fantasies into their "bibles".

Separate COS from TOV

Money making is one thing

But everyone is not a fool ... Remember

Do separate the philosophy of man from this Cult

before it is too late

Green Fairy that was some good stuff. I had not seen that post before and it explains some of Nemo's motives.

So the picture we are getting is this: He couldn't get into the COS priesthood originally so threw a fit and joined the Temple of Set and couldn't get into THEIR priesthood either so he just forms his own lol.

Now, how did he end up in the COS Priesthood the second time through? Who wants to bet he BOUGHT his way in?

For the poster who asked about the reading list no I don't have one. If you click through links on their website you can find it though somewhere. I remembered seeing that book there because I had to look it up. If anyone is in the forums there they probably have more.

I have one question: Where did Nemo get the metaphysical stuff they teach? I bet it is stolen from somewhere.

>>Now, how did he end up in the COS Priesthood the second time through? Who wants to bet he BOUGHT his way in?<<

That is a great possibility being that the CoS was going bankrupt at the time. I really can't see any reason other than money.


>>Where did Nemo get the metaphysical stuff they teach? I bet it is stolen from somewhere.<<

The ToV rituals are nothing original. I see many elements of the fabled Necronomicon, some dark imagery thrown in with classic cult mind control techniques and Zecharia Sitchin backs up a lot of the pseudo science Nemo likes to spew to support the Temples claims.

I've research for years and there is absolutely no evidence that supports the ancient Sumerians believed in vampires.

I doubt he bought his way in. He is too beloved in COS circles, even in the old, early 90s posts. I'm still betting my money LaVey had him trick the TOS somehow.

Green Fairy, you've made some fascinating statements. Could you provide documentation to prove these claims? It isn't that I don't believe it's possible but as Carl Sagan said, "extrodinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Dracula 777:

What claims in particular do you need me to back up? I have no problem doing so and will try to the best of my ability. Unfortunately, I cannot provide the Myspace evidence because that bulletin that was going around was a few years ago and was deleted by the CoS official who posted it for "political reasons." It was a well known incident to many ToV members who are on Myspace so if you inquire I'm sure many of them will confirm it. Some of the more loyal brainwashed members who are still friends with the members of this cabal may not.

I own the Vampire Bible and The Predator Bible so I can answer any questions you or anyone may have up to the 2nd circle. The rest of my knowledge comes from the cabal I knew who were involved in the priesthood, the Lifeforce messageboard as well as various testimonials I've read from past known members who were at the adept level. Some CoS friends I know also provided some info of things they have experienced in connection with ToV.


>>I doubt he bought his way in. He is too beloved in COS circles, even in the old, early 90s posts. I'm still betting my money LaVey had him trick the TOS somehow.<<


I don't think so. How is the ToV affecting The Temple of Set? It is CoS members that are being deceived and robbed. The ToS isn't even a thought these days in the CoS. The CoS bankruptcy is the best motivation I can see for using the ToV as another income. I don't want to believe that, however logic seems to be pointing in that direction. I don't like making up conspiracy theories about this subject (ex; it's a Satanic experiment to see who are the real Satanists, Nemo is working undercover to bring down CoS or vice versa) I have to call it how I see it.

It's extremely upsetting and disappointing but I've come to accept it already. Does it stop me from being a Satanist? Not in the least.

Once again >> READ ABOUT TANTRISM you will have the answer.

Separate COS from TOV !!!!

I'm well read on Tantra and I have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

Care to be a bit more specific?

Green Fairy, any further info you could provide would be great. If anyone out there can provide more evidence surrounding this incident, that would condemn the TOV for good.

I'd be curious to hear a bit on the contents of the Predator Bible.

"What claims in particular do you need me to back up? I have no problem doing so and will try to the best of my ability. Unfortunately, I cannot provide the Myspace evidence because that bulletin that was going around was a few years ago and was deleted by the CoS official who posted it for "political reasons."

How convenient that the evidence you are referencing is no longer in existence...Here's the real irony, people will actually BELIEVE what you say...you could tell them you were an ex Master/Catholic High Priest member of the Vampire gurus club and are an expert and everyone here would be like...oh wow I didn't know that...could you tell me something please?! haha Please keep the laughs rolling in!

Wow.....I've been gone for a few days and look what happened! Just when the naysayers squak about this thread dying out....Green Fairy, remember, whenever somebody comes on this thread and starts giving up information, there is always the Troll that tries to scare them off..Don't feed the Trolls, thanks for your excellent information, I personally appreciate all of your input! This is a totally anonymous way to voice your opinion. I would be very interested to see anything that anybody would be willing to share about the ToV, .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) anytime. I would agree with Dracula777 about the "Predator Bible" and would love to see any pictures available.

>>How convenient that the evidence you are referencing is no longer in existence...<<


The photos and information pertaining to them were written and passed around in a Myspace bulletin - which are automatically deleted in a couple weeks. Every Myspace user knows this. If it were written in a blog it would stay up so long as the author does not delete it. The CoS priest who posted it deleted his original bulletin after a confrontation with Nemo. Other bulletins that were still circulating for a couple weeks were automatically deleted like all Myspace bulletins after a certain time.



>>Here's the real irony, people will actually BELIEVE what you say...<<


I don't expect anyone to believe what I say. I just felt like sharing my experiences regarding this matter. Everyone is free to take from the information what they wish. Some will relate to it because of their own negative experiences with the ToV and others who believe in all of this tripe (like you) will get pissed off or defensive.

I wonder how many ToV members who actually post that stupid disclaimer even know why they are being asked to disclose it on their Myspace's etc...

Well, since he declared it publicly, can you say which priesthood member it was? He was obviously vocal about it, so it's not like he has anything to lose.

>>Well, since he declared it publicly, can you say which priesthood member it was? He was obviously vocal about it, so it's not like he has anything to lose.<<


It was Priest Leviathan aka Hagen von Tronje.

I knew it! You can sense the tension on LTTD sometimes. I remember someone asked the board what they thought of immortality and Hagen said something like, "No one will ever live forever. If you want bullshit, you know where to find it." Then he and Nemo argued it out. it was a few months ago- all despite the "no talk" policy there.

Really shows the split in the ranks. You have the warrior/Black Order type Satanists like Leviathan, Svengali, etc. who are anti-bullshit and then you have the TOV crowd. They're exact opposites and I'm surprised they don't clash more.

I have read many a post where Priest Hagen has remarked in a way that would define his stance on the subject. Dracula777, I know what post you are talking about, if I remember correctly Nemo was pretty much shut down. My favorite thread as of late is Mind Control Made Easy posted by Magister Svengali, you will see Nemo come in with a ridiculous post about making "sacrifices to the cause" and "getting the hell out of there", to me those are totally hipocritical statements.

Yeah, you can almost feel him sweating while he wrote it. I considered probing him on it... but I think it speaks for itself.

You and I both, I actually composed a few responses then cancelled them. I wish Svengali would have brutalized him like I know he wanted to. Too bad for political correctness and keeping the peace in the name of the organization.

>> I wish Svengali would have brutalized him like I know he wanted to. Too bad for political correctness and keeping the peace in the name of the organization.<<


This is what is so frustrating. No one is allowed to speak their minds on there anymore like they used to. I know many members who are against the whole ToV thing, acknowledge it's a scam, yet they refuse to speak out because they want to hold on to their membership. Why?

Why would anyone want to remain a part of CoS knowing they are scamming their own members is beyond me.

I believe there is alot of hardcore loyalty to Dr. LaVey that holds some of the true leadership within the CoS together. I too feel that the true CoS doctrine has been betrayed by allowing this ToV scam to exist and think that if the Dr were around today he would definately agree that a seperation needed to take place even if it meant a new Order/Structure be built. I think that Svengali, Hagen, Bickley all have the capacity to make something happen if they got together and figured it out.

It's just a matter of time.

All the people you mentioned are at least 20 years younger than Nemo. When he's gone, they will take his place.

It is not unlike nature. The young predators eventually push out the old- but the old ones are the most dangerous, so timing has to be perfect.

Never take for granted Nemo's position in the COS. Most of the members and leadership are underground.

They let Aquino have his day in the Sun. They let him think he had real power. Then, when he took their mercies too far, they taught him a lesson he's still bitter about decades later.

Like Aquino, they will keep Nemo around as long as he is useful- but if he pushes it too far, the same thing will happen.

The wolves are already snapping.

Watch him. Nemo like to act like big shot, but they can make him sweat when they want him to.

But he's smarter than Aquino. He may get the last laugh for now.

Hey Rupert,

The arguments here are creative and certainly somewhat convincing, but are logically sloppy.

There are three problems with your proposal. One, you should provide evidence that the TOV really is a scam, which seems to be the underlying premise in this discussion. As an example that can relate to this topic, here is an alternative view on Scientology which applies to the TOV nicely:

http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/scam.htm

http://www.slate.com/id/2171416/

Second, from what I currently know the COS does not disallow membership in other organizations or religions unless it is in complete opposition to LaVey

Nemo is just a guy with a beard who runs technical stuff for the TOV. As for his importance in the COS, he is on equal footing with the rest of the Magisters of the organization. There isn't much of a conspiracy, nor is he running the show.

Dracula777 wrote:
"They let Aquino have his day in the Sun. They let him think he had real power. Then, when he took their mercies too far, they taught him a lesson he's still bitter about decades later."

Actually, he resigned.

Zeus,
We of the COS care about the TOV because what the TOV teaches from a standpoint of metaphysics is not compatible with what Anton LaVey taught AT ALL.

I'm well acquainted with most if not all of the inner teachings of the TOV.

Anton was an atheist. He would not "bow down before" fucking undead Gods.

So you tell us how you can hold incompatible beliefs? How can you be an atheist (Satanism) but yet feed lifeforce to undead gods that you worship (!= Satanism)? That is TOTALLY not compatible with Satanism. Hence Magus Gilmore's "I-Theist" term.

We in the COS recognize this and it pisses us off. If you want to run around sucking people's lifeforce and prancing around on the astral so be it. Just leave us the fuck out of it. Break away from the COS and you can do whatever in the hell (pun intended) you want.

What about your "Nine Laws of Magic"? that system of magic is completely different than LaVey's. LaVey had 5 simple steps. You have 9.

Law #1, "Reality is democratic" I can agree with. It's Lesser Magic at work.

Law #2, "Leverage and deceive" I'm ok with, not in a ritual magic standpoint but from Lesser Magic ok.

Law #3 "Renaming and reframing". Come on. That's fucking NLP, not magic.

#4 "Naming and commanding". Uh huh. I tried this one. I named a girl "bitch" and "commanded" her to "DO FAVORS" for me. It didn't work. What part of ANTON'S magic system does this fall into again?

#5 "Connecting and patterning"? Come on. While I can agree that some aspects of Quantum Physics can hold up to this, it's mostly metaphysical claptrap. Web of Wyrd? Come on. Tell us, where does this fit into the Satanic magic system again?

#6 "Forming and filling"? This is just a fancy way of trying to use part #3 (imagery) of Magus LaVey's magic, except with the TOV claptrap in it. Forming I have no problem with. Filling you thoughts (magic, desires) with lifeforce? That's frickin' BS.

#7 #8 and #9. Lucid dreaming does not = magic.

I can sit here and "lucid dream" I'm with Angelina Jolie but that doesn't follow into the Objective Universe at least not in that way.

What part of lucid dreaming did Anton teach again?

What would you like to discuss next from a Satanic point of view? The Adept Bible? The "Cube of Experience"? The "Nine Gates and Angles"?

Want to let us Satanists in on how this is compatible with our beliefs?

Now a SERIOUS question to you: How many years (and how many euros) is it going to take for you to discover whether this is bs or not?

Zeus- I fail to see the relevancy of your comment towards me. The pressure was clearly on Aquino and if (I don't have a good reliable source handy right now) he did resign himself, it means about as much as the fact Nixon resigned instead of being forced out of office. The tide was clearly against him by then and his philosophy didn't align with Satanism anymore (if it ever did.)

But let's not drag this thread off-topic.

I'd add as far as your other points, COS members are allowed to criticize Freemasonry, etc. but not the TOV. That's a big deal to us.

Well Zeus, I just read an argument that is far from "logically sloppy" by Count Dorkula, I think most here would agree. A question I have is how you don't see a difference in the CoS members who are Freemasons or part of other esoteric, religeous or secular organizations from those who are ToV members. They aren't flying there banners on LttD and fishing from the pond. I've seen inconspicuous recruiting by Nemo in the terms of greeting new sign-ups with gracious words of wisdom within responses to introductory posts, you think that he isn't impressionable through his title and/or his many banners? When was the last time anybody saw a CoS Magister respond to a newby on LttD with a Freemason banner under his/her name or any organization for that matter that required a constant flow of money in return for eternal life.

Dracula777, you may want to read Aquino's account of things in his detailed exposition.

http://www.xeper.org/maquino/nm/COS.pdf

By the way, I just felt the discussion was getting a bit unbalanced and wanted to chuck in my 2 cents a bit. I could be wrong, I could be right. Feel free to disagree!

Dorkula wrote:
"We of the COS care about the TOV because what the TOV teaches from a standpoint of metaphysics is not compatible with what Anton LaVey taught AT ALL."

You're barking up the wrong tree. The TOV is not Satanism, nor does it pretend to be. It is apparent that much of TOV material would be rejected by Satanists (maybe not completely by Anton LaVey, as he did have a concept of "life energy" regarding the medium ritual magic works through and had explorations in areas that would be rejected by today's more materialistic Satanists).

If you are not scared to do so (I don't know what image you all have been creating of big bad Nemo), and are open enough for the answer, you can always contact Nemo politely asking about his personal interactions with Anton Lavey, as Anton Lavey did know about the TOV and approved of it as a legitimate organization (which is why the two organizations have had a good relationship). I'm not sure if Nemo would be willing to recount his experiences with such an anonymous inquiry, but worth a try. The reason being that Anton LaVey's opinions really aren't relevant to the TOV.

Nemo is also not the only founder of the TOV, and isn't all that important to the organization other than having the responsibility to make the organization run smoothly and take care of the administrative/internet stuff. Besides that, he is on the same level as any other Adept in the TOV.

Some TOV members find Satanism attractive and useful from the skeptical materialist angle, as there are three angles discussed consistently publically regarding the way a person views reality within the TOV. The trick is to make those three views of reality flow together in such a way to produce useful material results, as the physical "objective" reality you emphasized is the most important measuring stick in any venture. Satanism works identically to the "Dayside" point of view. A TOV member can also consider his Dayside philosophy as Objectivist, etc.

Furthermore, much of the TOV whether the teachings or members has little to nothing to do with Satanism, the COS, TOS, or any other organization. Some TOV members may find such organizations or religions fun (such as Satanism) or maybe useful, so joining would be an individual choice.

"I've seen inconspicuous recruiting by Nemo in the terms of greeting new sign-ups with gracious words of wisdom within responses to introductory posts, you think that he isn't impressionable through his title and/or his many banners? "

Banners are hardly mind-controlling...

Words of wisdom: that's how his personality is.

Greeting new sign-ups...so he shouldn't greet them?

Impressionable? You're talking about legal adults here. I would have issues also if he were doing these things to minors.

"I'd add as far as your other points, COS members are allowed to criticize Freemasonry, etc. but not the TOV. That's a big deal to us."

It's called learning not to make it a big deal. The whole TOV and COS friendly relationship goes back to LaVey and Gilmore, which is why negative criticisms of the TOV in public COS avenues are discouraged due to courtesy.

You're real underlining issue is that you can't stand what you see as hypocritical thinking: how can a person be a no-bs high-ranking Satanist and believe in astral mumbo-jumbo and Undead Gods? Honestly, that should be the individual's problem, not yours. You're creating a dramatic issue where there is none.

Zeus you are missing the point here. The TOV and the COS hold MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE beliefs.

Let me repeat that. MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE beliefs.

Therefore, you CAN'T be a member of both in good faith.

That is the first problem. The second problem is how the TOV preys on unsuspecting members of the COS. Because Nemo is respected he is (usually) going to get the benefit of the doubt.

And since you have to BUY your way into the TOV by the time a Satanist figures out its a bunch of crap Nemo has gotten richer.

The COS makes a bunch of its material available PUBLICLY. It doesn't do that for the "Satanic Bible" because it doesn't hold the copyright.

But still. I paid my $100 and never had to spend another dime UNLESS I wanted to. There isn't the "Satanic Bible Adept" version I have to buy.

And because Nemo made Ventrue and Adept, he can rule LTTD with an iron fist thus not letting any of these thoughts through there.

I'm not going to ask Nemo anything because I HAVE NO WAY OF VERIFYING what he says. He can SAY anything; that doesn't make it true. Now. If a bunch of the COS Hierarchy might have been there during those meetings I might put a little more stock in it.

I bet you've heard this before: "Test everything, believe nothing".

So answer this question YOURSELF: How can one be an atheist, but not an atheist at the same time?

Unless Nemo wants to do an article on how it is all just BS.

This from the same group that claims Jesus was a member of the Brotherhood. What does Nemo claim? That the truth is locked in a chapel somewhere? How am I going to verify THAT?

"Pardon Me Mr. Monk. I'm a bloke from Southampton who happens to be a Satanist. My friend told me that Jesus was an alien vampire. Would you mind if I browse through your archives? Hey, at least I'm not a Catholic. Or a Protestant whatever the case may be".

So. Zeus. You been to any of the astral Sabbat's yet? How were they?

You do realize Nemo claims that the "Undead Gods" fly around in UFO's right? If you have all of their Bibles, take a gander at the pictures on the front and tell me what they look like?

BTW. I've heard the stories about the founding of the TOV. Are you SURE about what you say? I thought these teachins were in Nemo's family for generations?

Do tell.

The Dork

"Therefore, you CAN'T be a member of both in good faith."

Explain to me, then, how you can possibly be a materialistic skeptic on one hand and enter an Intellectual Decompression Chamber, summoning demons, and performing real Greater Magic at the same time? Ol' Tony did it all the time. Nemo explained how this works in a Satanic context in the early 1990s:

http://stason.org/TULARC/new-age/magick-chaos/05-06-Satanist.html

This stuff just requires flexibility in thinking. You are still caught up in thinking that there is only one way to map reality (materialism), and everything else is wrong.

"And because Nemo made Ventrue and Adept, he can rule LTTD with an iron fist thus not letting any of these thoughts through there."

You're getting worked up over an internet forum?

"But still. I paid my $100 and never had to spend another dime UNLESS I wanted to. There isn't the "Satanic Bible Adept" version I have to buy."

You forgot one important advise given in your religion: "Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself", 8th of the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth.

"Unless Nemo wants to do an article on how it is all just BS."

Actually, he wrote two articles comparing and contrasting Vampirism, Satanism, and Atheism and addressing all these concerns in the Bloodline journals of the TOV available to the public.

"So answer this question YOURSELF: How can one be an atheist, but not an atheist at the same time?"

Tsk, tsk. See above.

"BTW. I've heard the stories about the founding of the TOV. Are you SURE about what you say? I thought these teachins were in Nemo's family for generations?"

I

My agenda here is to actually show you how this problem is self-created, by the way, because it obviously is so. No one can ever force you to do anything unless maybe when they get physical and dangerous. In other words, no one is being duped by the TOV unless it was their choice to begin with. Same with Scientology, and anything else. You're creating an imaginary enemy and then attempting to fight it.

If you're interested, here are some great books that address rational thinking and living:

A Guide to Rational Living by Albert Ellis

How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World by Harry Browne

Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi

Although I disagree, even if the TOV was incompatible with Satanism it isn't anyone's concern but those folks who want to obviously dwell in frustration by adopting incompatible belief systems. Just ignore it.

Several things Zeus.

Firstly who said I do rituals? As far as I am able to tell they are entirely optional for a Satanist.

However, that is NOT the case with the TOV. It is said that ritual is the ONLY was to become immortal, and only then if the Gods deem you worthy.

See the difference?

Secondly LaVey ALWAYS maintained that ritual was fantasy. He always said the Devil wasn't real and the decompression chamber was used only as a tool to aid your fantasy.

Please point out to me where THAT is mentioned in "The Vampire Bible".

Again. See the difference? One says you don't have to do ritual, other says you do. One says the Gods are just imaginary other says they are and will judge you.

THAT is the difference.

Now on to the Satanic sin. We, the members of the COS, complain because we ARE subjected to it on a daily basis. We see your fucking disclaimers and banners EVERYWHERE. On LTTD. On Myspace. On Undercroft. Frickin' TOV business cards fall out of library books for Christ's Sakes (again pun intended).

I had read the articles Nemo wrote trying to fit his worldview into Satanism. I just don't buy it. It's intellectual wrangling.

Yeah, you may very well know more about Nemo than I do. Are you related to him by any chance? Anyways it Is important because he is the public face and he is the Internet Admin.

Now. If you just think that the TOV is fun and you KNOW it is BS, then what is the point of spending all that money? Unless you are his son or something and got in for free. I can go buy "The Dark Tower" series from Stephen King and get fantasy if I want it. What *I* want is the fucking TRUTH.

I want Gilmore to explain this fucking synergy between the COS and the TOV.

If *I* started a metaphysical organization and tried to plaster it all over LTTD, let's see what would happen.

Wanna make some bets with me Zeus? You can spend some of that money you are saving up to be cryogenicly preserved right? That's required for the Priesthood now right?

And yes, I know LaVey wrote about that. He just didn't FORCE members to do it.

I know! I gots me a Ouija Board handy. Let me breathe some lifeforce in it and contact the good Doktor!

AH SHIT. Wait. That was House Kheperu. Wrong number.

DANG IT! That was the Order of Aset Ka. Wrong number again.

Ah, here it is. A message from an Undead God(tm).

"From the depths of the fire and brimstone I talk to you my astral brethren! Yea, let it be known throughout the land that I, the Infernal Magus LaVey, allowed the TOV to be formed because I WAS FUCKING BROKE AND KNEW THAT THERE WAS A SUCKER BORN EVERY MINUTE!"

There. Now let me ask you again do you REALLY think that vampires go around in UFO's?

Zeus, you think that you can tell us that we are "creating an imaginary enemy and then attempting to fight it" then offer up some subjective reading to help solidify your scheme....I would like to quote the great Jabba the Hutt.."Your mind powers will not work on me boy"! Granted it was a valiant effort.

Three things.

One, you don't understand LaVey's system at all. It was far more complex than you portray it. I know you're a COS member and all, but many COS members are oblivious to where LaVey's head was at anyway, especially the hard-nosed realist crowd.

Here's a hint, skip LttD and go here: http://bbs.satanism101.com/

You'll learn more than that other site.

Aquino's _Church of Satan_ is another detailed look at the history of the COS and Anton's vision for it.

Second, you still don't get the concept I spoke about regarding the manipulation of belief systems, operating from one view of the world and switching to another following the results each mode offers.

Third, I was engaging in a conversation with you, not an argument. Learn to tell the difference.

"Zeus, you think that you can tell us that we are "creating an imaginary enemy and then attempting to fight it" then offer up some subjective reading to help solidify your scheme....I would like to quote the great Jabba the Hutt.."Your mind powers will not work on me boy"! Granted it was a valiant effort."

Instead of attempting to change some aspect of the world, changing your own subjective vantage point is easier and solves many problems. The readings are suggestions to think in different patterns.

I'm well aware of all of the magical tangents that Anton LaVey went on; before I joined the COS I did extensive research into as many of his writings as I could get a hold of include old "Cloven Hoof" articles and even old "Letters to the Devil" (the original Church publication not the message board).

I've also read Aquino's writings already; several times in fact.

Now about the "manipulation of belief systems". I have no INHERENT disagreements with this at all. As you pointed out this is what happens in standard Satanic Ritual.

and yes, I know all about the Dayside, Nightside and Twilight views of the TOV.

What I disagree with is how the metaphysics of the TOV are presented.

Now if you and Nemo and whoever KNOW it is just imagination then...

SAY SO.

Stop with all the intellectual BS. If in the "Vampire Bible" it was STATED that it was all psychodrama and put into proper perspective then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I would STILL have a problem with the advertising and the money scheme but that is different.

Now note, I'm not saying I disagree with ALL of the metaphysics of the TOV either.

Again it is the playing of both sides of the fence just like a cult would do that bothers me.

You suck in Those Who Want To Believe(tm) but then turn around and get the Satanists as well.

Like I said, you can't be both. UNLESS you know that the TOV teachings are BS.

But then it is intellectual dishonesty. See how this works?

Now look. Nemo's a smart dude. Having been around the block as much as he has, he KNOWS what he is doing. All THIS COS member wants is honesty, and for the TOV to stop being cross-pollinated by the COS.

Then you can do whatever you want.

But again, like for the third time I want to ask you a question.

How can you justify believing that Jesus was a Vampire? And how can you say that Vampires fly around in UFO's and abduct people?

This is a serious question.

Where's the evidence of that? Now, if you
happen to think that is imagination, why not just say it? What possible benefit is there from manipulating THAT belief?

There's all kinds of benefit if you are trying to make money and suck in the gullible though.

Let me re-iterate: Some of the teachings of the TOV I can agree with. It's basically other esoteric systems slapped with a "Vampiric" image.

But a LOT of what is teaches isn't verifiable (which is contradictory to the TOV's own motto) or is just plain BS.

I've read Aquino's book multiple times. It's interesting but his bias is obvious.

Now let me tell you something about the T.O.V I know what it is and it might be scam or no scam and I'm not a member.You think this guy Nemo is a scam artist and all you do is rant about it. Why don't you guys and ladies grow up and just forget about it .Talk about he needs to grow up when you kids are complaining about him. I don't see no posts by him. You're not even worth his time. He is smart and you got nothing better to do then rant on a form.Why don't you look through his eyes. The guys got bills to pay and lets see,the website fee,pay the guy who moderates the website,books he prints,T.O.V activities ,jewelery and whatever else needed to keep the community alive.Religions all want money. No money equals no voice.People also state that they see in the the book it might be fancy talk and you complain that he tells you some of it is BS because of your own denial. Not his fault so give up, battle lost. Also i would like to ask this to why the hell would nemo give out ancient text a normal human being he doesn't know for free.What I'm about to say is attended as a joke -> ,You should be kissing his vampyre ass he is doing it for human currency and not slaughtering your family and making you work for your vampyre community and if you betray your family(vampires) youre punishable by death. Hmmmmmm.... Hard one right? *Because he wants money* NO!!! Because he doesn't want everyone and there mother having the real documents.I think i know but not positive on information on vampires but I will always believe they exist for one reason and that reason will go to the grave with me.
For all you scientific nuts. All cells came from pre-existing cells. Where did the first cell come from then? Religions might be full shit but there is always some truth meant to give clues to find it. (this stuff i wrote might be choppy but I don't feel like rewriting it and wasting my time. All I'm trying to say is your the fools for believing a book is going to awnswer your questions . Only you can the book is just a guide that needs to be deciphered. Once you decipher it maybe there's a hidden message with a address to send another $100.ooo for the final hidden book. Just kidding ToV members and leaders.

Wow....What a revelation! No offense intended but there are some underlying issue's here, if you go back to page 1 and read up to your post you might figure it out. I don't think I will be giving up as I don't feel the battle to be lost!

"I don't think I will be giving up as I don't feel the battle to be lost!"

Anyone plowing through the last 23 pages of this forum can easily recognize that 'the battle' is not only a waste of time, but that all 'wars' accomplish nothing.
You may help people make up their minds about the TOV, but as far as bringing the TOV down - you're dreaming.

You can come to your own conclusions about my agenda but I can assure you that bringing down organizations isn't a part of it. I appreciate your input though.