The Museum of Hoaxes
How Did Jesus Really Die?????
Posted By:
X
in McKinney, TX
Jun 08, 2005
 Some people believe that Jesus Didn't die on the cross....Some speculate that He was so dehidrated that the blood flow slowed down so he didn't bleed to death and was awoken by Mary after he was placed in Tomb simply by giving him water....

A new scientific study shows something else. A blood clot???? Here is the link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8139434/

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Category: Death, Religion, Science; Replies: 190

Comments
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lindsay
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 10:24 PM
and to answer your question as to why my God is real and others arent is as I have said before...i have had experince with God. I know that you cant follow by faith and you have to have proof but I can tell you that God is more real to me than you are. He's a part of my everyday life and everyday I sense him in some way. I am a person who is strong in faith becuase i am an inesesor..God allows me to feel things and know things about people that i would have no way of knowing unless they told me or I shared the experince. But you will only be skeptical to the experinces that I have had and my relationship with God so i wont elborate unless someone actualy wants to hear
crankymediaguy
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 12:38 AM
Lindsay said:

"and to answer your question as to why my God is real and others arent is as I have said before...i have had experince with God."

And what makes you think that people who believe in a different God than you do haven't had "experiences with God"? Since you presumably believe that your God is the ONLY God, one or both of you have to be wrong, correct? Your sincere belief in your "experiences with God" does not invalidate in any way the "experiences with God" that THEY believe they have had.

Suppose you met a person who believed in a different God than you do who was to tell you that they have had "experiences" with THEIR God. Imagine that this person was obviously sincere. How could you possibly conclude that THEIR experience MUST be wrong and yours MUST be real? Please respond using facts, not merely by saying that you "know," etc. The other person, after all, would probably feel the same way.

"But you will only be skeptical to the experinces that I have had and my relationship with God so i wont elborate unless someone actualy wants to hear"

I believe that your experiences are real TO YOU, but that does not constitute proof that there is a God or that you have encountered Him.
crankymediaguy
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 12:53 AM
Lindsay said:

"lol my argument is completely different than the earth being flat. I have reason to believe it."

Actually, no, it isn't. Believe it or not, there are still a few people who believe that the Earth is flat. You may be surprised to learn that some of them consider themselves Christians and use the Bible as "proof" of their beliefs. That's why I chose that particular example. Don't you think they think they have "reason to believe" what they believe? If not, why not?

"If I looked at the earth from outer space and saw with my own eyes that it was flat, then indeed it would be flat and I would believe it."

I think you've just made a very good argument for atheism, actually. You're pointing out that belief should be based on FACTS. Seeing that the Earth is round from space would mean that you had FACTS that prove its shape. The Bible, despite your belief in it, contains few facts. It is a collection of stories that people are expected to accept on faith.

I'll ask you this question knowing that you will almost certainly duck it, but here goes: What FACTS do you have to prove that Jesus is the "son of God," that a bush could burn without being consumed, that a man can walk on water, etc. etc.? Don't tell me that the fact that those stories are in the Bible constitutes FACT. It doesn't. Anyone can write a book that says anything at all; that doesn't prove what the book says.

Photographs of the Earth from space are objective proof of the shape of the Earth. Your alleged experiences with God are not.

Have you ever seen David Blaine on TV? If you have, you'll remember that some of the people he did tricks for say that they are "sure" that what he did can't possibly be explained by anything other than the supernatural. I assure you that everything he does is achieved by trickery.

My point here is that what you consider an "experience with God" might be attributable to something other than God.

People are fond of saying that miracles are a one-in-a-million event. If so, then 300 "miracles" occur a day, on average, in America. A thing may be rare and not be a "miracle."
Larry
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 06:52 AM
I made this post in another forum. But, after reading this forum I thought I'd share it here as well.

---------------------------------------
Hello...

I stumbled upon this place by accident really. I was using Google to search for the Russian MIG pilot that defected in the 70's (no, I cannot actually explain how I got here from THAT...but somehow, that search was the origin 😊 )

I cannot tell anyone what they "have" to believe--I wouldn't even think of trying to do as such. People used to try and strong arm me like that and I resented and resisted it. I can only say what I believe and leave it at that. I'm not even sure why I'm posting this. I had no intention of doing so as first. Still...for what it's worth...

I went through a large portion of my life doing my "own thing". It was ok...I had some fun...I did some things but I could always feel something missing...something out of place. I dunno what the exact wording is but I remember the feeling.

I'll keep this brief. Due to a series of intense events in my life, I finally came to what I now consider to be fact. There is a God...there was and is a Jesus...and my life has never been the same since accepting that. My entire outlook on life shifted and I found a peace and a strength that I'd searched for during most of my walk on this earth.

You'll never prove or disprove "religion" by argument or fact. It's been tried and always fails. It's a personal matter between an individual and the Creator. It's a true "close encounter" of a something kind.But, if you ever receive that touch, you cannot deny it's power.

Alas, therein lies the matter. I cannot convince someone of "fact" by something I've experienced in faith. Religion? It's a matter of faith...and, no person can ever instill that in you.
The Bible says: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Wouldn't make a very strong case in a court of law, eh?


I'm no expert on theology. I'm just an average guy of, at best, average intelligence and I know that. Nonetheless...it's my sincere wish and...yes, my prayer...that every reader in this topic experiences what I've experienced because it's so special, pure and powerful.

My best wishes to each of you and your families.
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 08:45 AM
Larry, we are not actually trying to disprove religion. We are asking the believers to prove religion, since they are the ones who claim there is a "god". As it turns out they have no proof. Zero. (Faith does not constitute proof.) Your so-called "experiences" could just be in your mind, couldn't they?

I guess you must have forgotten to give your best wishes to all the families that died in the recent tsunami. See my point? Where was your god when this happened?

P.S. What have you found out about Victor Belenko?
Larry
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 10:31 AM
Captain Al,

Hey, good catch on ole' Viktor 😊
That was actually part of what I was trying to find...I'd forgotten his name.

As for proof? I think I've already addressed that. I have no hard, physical proof that would hold up in any court of law. And, I also said there is nothing I can say that can make anyone believe anything. It's up to the individual. I merely shared my personal belief...nothing more, nothing less.

If I'm wrong...if there is no God...then, I'll go to my grave and eternal "nothingness". Nothing really lost...nothing really gained. You'll have your point...

On the other hand...what if I'm right?

As for the tsnnami victims (as in any tragedy actually) my heart went out to them and I sent material help as I could.

How I wish it were that our world would never suffer tragedy. If it were as such, we'd not even be having this debate most likely. We'd be in a state of peaceful bliss I suppose.

Do I see your point? Of course I do...there are many things on earth I cannot explain the whys and whats of. Good/Bad, Good/Evil both exist in the world we live in. It's been like that since the beginning of time...I'm sure the same question has been asked over and over and over...Where was God when this thing happened? I suppose that's where the faith comes in...we will never be able to explain everything in terms of cold, hard fact. If we could, then faith has no meaning...

Am I blind or simple minded? Many would say as such. Maybe they're even right...but I'm told quite clearly that without that faith I can never please the God I believe in.

I truly am an average guy and I don't have all the answers...I cannot tell you why God allows everyhing to happen. You'll have to direct that question to Him. And, I'm not being facetious when I say that.

Hey, you seem like a good guy. I respect your opinions and I truly understand your points and questions. There was a time in my life I'd probably have agreed entirely with you. But, just as the "Saul" that once persecuted and killed Christians experienced something that changed him into "Paul the Apostle"...so too have I experienced something in my life and it's changed my entire outlook as well.

Ok, sorry...I rambled far longer than I intended. I don't want my part in this to turn into a raging debate. 😊

Take care..and, yes---best wishes to you guy.
lindsay
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 10:48 AM
Everyone that I have ever met that is an on fire for God christian can attest to it changing their lives. There are millions of people just like Larry whom lived their whole live as athiest or agnostics or w/e and have an encounter with God. Everyone of those people that I have ever heard about come away different. Their lives become so much better. All on fire christians will tell you that beyond a shawdow of doubt that God is real. That is becuase we have had an experince with him that is more real than this debate. Why dont you open up your mind for a few moments and consider things a different way than how you do. Change your perspective.
Why should everything have to be factual for you to believe it? I know that you are intellegent people so why is it that the only things that you can believe must be explained so that you can understand them and you can agree with them. Face it you will never know everything not everything can be put into factual terms so why is that you live by facts? AS you said before the arrogance of humans knows no end. That is why we must have faith because we will never understand everything. Im not going to push something away becuase its to complex for me.
You a reason that my God is real in cold hard facts right? Well why odnt you tell me why my God cannot be real.
lindsay
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 11:36 AM
"I think you've just made a very good argument for atheism, actually. You're pointing out that belief should be based on FACTS. Seeing that the Earth is round from space would mean that you had FACTS that prove its shape. The Bible, despite your belief in it, contains few facts. It is a collection of stories that people are expected to accept on faith. "
right lol so what undeniable proof do you have that my God doesnt exist?
the point i was making is that i saw the earth and you hadnt...as in ive had experinces with God and you havent. lol how can you say that my experinces werent from God unless youve experinced them yourself? Ive read theories from athiest and those types of things but have you ever had a christians experince? If so then I would be very interested to hear about it
i would also like to know why the majority of the time when people, yes even people as skeptical of christianty as you, are about to die or have virtualy no place to turn to, why they turn to my God...why not other Gods? Why not buddah? Why do christians have so many, and such strong testimonies? do other "Gods" have as many as my God? Do other "gods" have so many people that have died for them or would die for them? So many people that believe so strongly in them? All of hte on fire christians that ive heard of say quite often "How could I not believe in God after hes done for me?"
lol i had something better written but i forgot to type that stupid code so sorry if its not the greatest lol i dont remember everything i had beofore
lindsay
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 11:42 AM
o ya captain al did i not already say that it would be impossible for there to not be a god?
a god could be defined as a supernatural being..a supernatural surpasses the boundries of a humanly being. humans must have a begining so anything that isnt a god must have a beginning. something had to make itself or have been around for ever for life to begin bc it had to start from something..that something must be a god bc it created itself or has been around for ever blahblah i shouldnt have to say more cuz its simple and obvious...there is a god so dont say there isnt...unless you think that a human can create itsself..
lindsay
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 12:13 PM
o ya i forgot about the whole miracle thing. If JEsus was God then why couldnt he walk on water? he is not bound by our limitations. If God created fire, and he created the bush then he could defy the laws of the fire and the bush and allow the fire to not consume the bush. Maybe we cant becuase we arent god...but God can and if you think about it its really stupid for us to say that a supernatural being cant defy simple laws of physics that he created
im not going to even pretend like i match all of you intellectualy. im a kid lol i dont know that much science...i dont know that much history..i really dont know that much. but whats in my heart about God far surpasses all of that. I know what is most important and that is God. I do believe that the bible is true so for me its a fact but for you i know its a load of crap at the most. you want me to prove my God by facts but i dont believe in my God because of facts..im not smart enough to do that anyway lol
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html?GCID=S15542x002-IsThere&KEYWORD=proof that god exists
this article makes sense...everything is to coincidental..i want you to think about how coincidental everything is for a moment after reading that

i assume you thought for a moment..that thought that you had proves that there is a God. If there is no God than we were created by something that has no thought..how can we have thought then? How can we have logic if wat created us has no logic? Thats defintly something you should conisder because from all of your theories you dont show where our emotions come from. sure maybe our physicals sides could be created from soemthing but w/e created us must have an emotional side to or esle nothing would that side...its like a tree producing another tree that could talk its doesnt happen. the tree cant talk so it cant create and offspring that talks
crankymediaguy
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 02:54 PM
Lindsay said:

"o ya i forgot about the whole miracle thing. If JEsus was God then why couldnt he walk on water? he is not bound by our limitations. If God created fire, and he created the bush then he could defy the laws of the fire and the bush and allow the fire to not consume the bush."

Lindsay, you gloss over that very big "if" at the start of your statement. I've said this before: you're starting with an assumption and building a very large house of cards on top of it.

"i dont believe in my God because of facts."

That's the truest thing you've said so far. Honestly, doesn't that give you even a moment's pause? You admit that there are NO facts behind what you believe, yet you believe it anyway. I'm not trying to be mean to you, but that's irrational (by definition).

To see the flaw in that "reasoning," simply exchange any other set of beliefs for yours. I believe that an invisible blue hippo lives in my closet and runs the Universe. I know there are no facts to prove that but I believe it anyway. Since you can't absolutely prove that he doesn't exist, that means I'm right. As a believer, this may be difficult for you to process, but your set of beliefs seems no less absurd to me than the one I just made up.

After all, IF there is a Divine Being, he COULD take the form of an invisible blue hippo who chooses to live in my closet, right? I mean God, by definition, is able to do anything. Who are we mere mortals to judge how the Invisible Blue Hippo works? If I find (or write) a book that espouses this same theory, well, that just PROVES that it's right, yes?
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 03:15 PM
have the blue hippos communicated with you? Then maybe they are God lol

I have communicated with God. I have been told things by him.. on a few occasions felt him.. over all sense him every time im in praise and worship. i do have facts they are my experinces but to you im sure they arent creditable. I know what Gods presence feels like. I can sit back and think about it..and you cant even begin to imagine it. no one can tell me that he isnt real..all that i have to do is raise my hands to him and sing a song from my heart and I can feel a supernatural presence all around me...i could go in deeper but because im a writer if i do then youl have pages on ur hands lol
if im crazy then every other christian who has ever felt God is crazy to..lots of crazy ppl lol
dont think for a second that I blindly believe in God becuase i have passion for him and my passions arent nothing. i have reason to believe him. I have communicated with him much more than i have communicated with you...

thanks for the pointers crankymediaguy its helpful lol no more ifs for lindsay


"i dont believe in my God because of facts."
i should have stated that differently...i dont believe in him bc of science..or anything..i believe in him bc I have met him
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 06:58 PM
Lindsay said:

"have the blue hippos communicated with you? Then maybe they are God lol"

It's Blue Hippo singular, thank you very much. Do I look like I would believe in MULTIPLE Gods? Sheesh! I'm no polytheist. And by the way, He is INVISIBLE. Of course He has communicated with me, in ways that a non-believer like you cannot possibly understand. His bellow is Word.

"I have communicated with God. I have been told things by him.. on a few occasions felt him.. over all sense him every time im in praise and worship. i do have facts they are my experinces but to you im sure they arent creditable."

Please don't take this the wrong way, OK? From February 1995 to February 1998, I worked outside the White House (yes, the one the President lives in). One of the many fascinating things I learned during that period in my life is that the stretch of Pennsylvania Ave. in front of the White House is like an open-air nut house.

I was friendly with not one, but two, people who thought they were the Second Coming, one of whom would periodically inform me about the new date on which his father--God--was going to flood the Earth so that I could evacuate. He liked me, you see, and wanted me to survive the flood.

I knew a man named Henry Goldgard who absolutely and sincerely believed that the government had put a chip inside his head which forced him to "hear" the thoughts of those around him. I also knew another man who believed that he was being spied on at home by a camera placed inside his TV set by the CIA and the Post Office. He was on a hunger strike to "force" them to remove the hidden camera.

Yes, I'm sure you'd say that they were all crazy. Technically, I'd say they were schizophrenic. All of them were intelligent people and I greatly enjoyed conversing with them. They were all as absolutely convinced of what they believed as you are of what YOU believe. They would happily stand there on Pennsylvania Ave. and defend their beliefs to anyone who asked with great energy and conviction.

No, I am NOT saying that you are insane. What I AM saying is that it is entirely possible for a person to be ABSOLUTELY convinced with every fiber of their being of something that simply isn't true.

As a Supreme Court justice (I forget which one) once said, "Certainty is not the test of certitude. We have been cocksure of a great many things that simply aren't true." In more modern English, that means that being sure of something in no way proves that it's correct. If you don't have FACTS with which to back up your belief(s), you just don't have a good reason to believe in them. In the absence of FACTS, I see no reason to believe in all the God silliness.
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 07:47 PM
lol nice stories bet it was interseting...how many people in the world share their belief though? If you include all braches of christianty 1/3 of the worlds population would fit in the category.

i do realize that someone can be convinced with every fiber of their being that something is true and it be wrong...but how many people can share the same passionate wrong belief? I do know that just because the majority of people believe soemtithing doesnt make it true but..is there any religion besides christianity that has so many die hard followers? and no lol i didnt take it the wrong way i see you point and i can see why it was made. Its a good arguement but those were two possibly crazy people in front of the white house outa everyone in the world

are you convinced with every fiber of your being that you are correct in saying there is no God? If so...then isnt it possible that your facts may stand in the same place that my experinces do?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 08:43 PM
Lindsay said:

"lol nice stories bet it was interseting...how many people in the world share their belief though? If you include all braches of christianty 1/3 of the worlds population would fit in the category."

Yes, so what? I'm not sure that your numbers are correct, but let's just accept them for the sake of the argument. By your numbers, 2/3 of the Earth's population are NOT Christian. Do you think that they DON'T "share their belief," whatever that means?

"i do realize that someone can be convinced with every fiber of their being that something is true and it be wrong...but how many people can share the same passionate wrong belief?"

I assume you believe that Christianity is the only True Religion, yes? Well, acording to YOUR numbers, 2/3 of the people who claim to believe in something "share the same passionate wrong belief."

"I do know that just because the majority of people believe soemtithing doesnt make it true but..is there any religion besides christianity that has so many die hard followers?"

Obviously yes, since--again according to YOUR numbers--2/3 of the believers on Earth are NOT Christians.

As far as being "die hard followers," have you ever heard of "jihad?" Those who engage in that are LITERALLY "die hard followers" of a non-Christian faith.

"Its a good arguement but those were two possibly crazy people in front of the white house outa everyone in the world"

Well, since as I've pointed out, Christianity is NOT the dominant religion on Earth, how can you logically use the NUMBER of people who share a belief as "proof" that it is correct? If you insist on doing that, you lose your own argument.

"are you convinced with every fiber of your being that you are correct in saying there is no God?"

No, I'm not. Nor have I said that there is absolutely no God. What I HAVE said is that there are no FACTS that establish the existance of God. In the absence of any such facts, I simply see no reason to believe in "Him."

"If so...then isnt it possible that your facts may stand in the same place that my experinces do?"

Nope. *I* say that I see no reason to believe in something for which no proof exists and for which many facts argue against. *You* on the other hand insist that FACTS aren't important because you WANT to believe. See the difference?
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 08:59 PM
do you realize how many people there are in the world that dont believe anything? Therefor the other 2/3 of the population does not consist of die hard followers. think about you statistics for a few moments and youll realize your mistake in your comment above. my point was that an outstanding 1/3 of the population is christian..now take all of the other religions in the world and divide the 2/3 amongst them. as someone has pointed out to me before not everyone who claims to be a christian is a die hard christain. But the same goes for other religions as well.

you are very big on the me wanting to believe in God. when did i say i am following God blinding becuase I have the oddest urge to set myself apart from normal teenagers open myself to critism and engage into christianity. Ive witnessed the amazing changes in people lives when they come to Christ. Good changes. People in my life have let me down before but everytime I call on God he answers in some form sometime. Ive never been let down by God and he has blessed me...I dont follow God becuase I want to. I follow God becuase he has shown himself to and i would elaborate but im going to watch a movie lol
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:36 AM
o ya my numbers are correct i looked at three different survey statitsic thingys
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:52 AM
Lindsay said:

"do you realize how many people there are in the world that dont believe anything? Therefor the other 2/3 of the population does not consist of die hard followers."

Nope, re-read what I wrote. I'm simplify it for you. More people believe in religions OTHER THAN CHRISTIANITY than in Christianity. That is correct. Christianity is NOT the dominant religion on Earth.

There are a couple of points to be made here:

1:The number of people who believe in something does not prove nor disprove that what they believe in is correct. Once upon a time, the majority of people on Earth believed that our planet was flat. Did their belief make it true?

2:If the number of people who believe in something DID affect the veracity of it, since Christianity is NOT the dominant religion on Earth, you would be in the minority and would therefore be "wrong."

"you are very big on the me wanting to believe in God. when did i say i am following God blinding becuase I have the oddest urge to set myself apart from normal teenagers open myself to critism and engage into christianity."

I don't understand all you said there, owing to your lack of syntax, etc. I did, however, get the point that you object to my saying that you believe because you WANT to. Since you have said that FACTS do not figure into your belief (you DID say that), it HAS to be that you believe because you WANT to.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 01:35 AM
I think I "misspoke" in my previous assertion. From this link:

http://www.faithresource.com/showcase/worldreligionsbyrank.htm

it appears that Christianity is the Number One religion on Earth. I am correct, however, that more people believe in other religions so my point
stands. If you're using the number of people who believe in Christianity as "proof" that it is correct, you lose your own argument as more people believe in things you DON'T believe. You're' outnumbered. Next "proof" please.
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 09:35 AM
my point was that 1/3 of the earth were all christians thats quite a large chunk of the population. you missunderstand me

1. when youre a christian having an encounterment is not that hard. most christians in the world have had one at least once. There are many people who arent christians that still have had and encounterment though they choose to not believe them or just ignore them. No matter how small the encounterment was I know just from what ive seen that most people have had some sort of encounterment whether they know it was GOd, chose to believe it, or just ignored it. thats quite a few people who have had contact with God.

2. If it is not God that all of the people from 1. have encoutnered then What was it?

3. how many people in the other religions have had encounterments with their "god"?

4. why is personal experince not considered proof. If we were trying to prove that big foot existed and people came on here genuinly claiming to have made contact with big foot then that wouldnt be overlooked. why here? And why are miracles overlooked for that matter? Scientific evidense will never correctly prove or disprove that there is a God. So if you want proof such as that then youll never be satisfied

i was pointing out how niave it is to say that I want to follow God since i am a teenager. There are many adults that are following GOd as they should but the number of teens that are isnt that hi. Ive met alot of people that believe in God like I do but more that dont at my age. When I decided to follow christ that means i decided to follow his rules. you know how teenagers are and you should be able to think about hard it can be to be a christian teenager. theres alot of pressure. and another burden to add on is that if i ever make any mistkae then im a hypocrite. Why would I want to go through something that hard when i could just join in and do it to? Im not ever talking about illegal things. Why would I want to open myself to critism like that from my piers? becuase I love God and becuase of what he has done in my life. i have testimonies and they are proof whether you acknowelde them as such or not. me wanting to believe that God is real is ridiculous. I believe that he is real not because I want to but becuase I have proof from my life.
Boo
in The Land of the Haggii...
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 09:41 AM
If we were trying to prove that big foot existed and people came on here genuinly claiming to have made contact with big foot then that wouldnt be overlooked

Yes it would.

Personal experience is not the same as proof.

We would ask them for something more, too.
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 10:19 AM
lol so what is proof? seeing bigfoot should be concidered even if it doesnt cement the fact that its true.

ok well billions of people have heard, felt, and sensed the annoiting of God...actually if you take everyone one who has ever lived that has been contacted by God then there would be a much larger number. are we all crazy?
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 10:41 AM
What billions? Please provide supporting evidence for this claim. Thousands certainly, maybe more, but billions is a very unlikely number. Please don't make claims up.
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 10:43 AM
And people's personal claims are meaningless without evidence supporting these claims. People are mistaken, misguided, deluded, irrational, unstable, or just plain lying. You claim to have spoken with your god. This claim is meaningless to anyone else because we don't know if any of the above applies to you.
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 11:30 AM
right sorry. theres 2.1 billion christians on the earth. i cant judge how many of them have personal experinces with God but most people that i have met have had an experince with God (some not even christians) at least once

I speak with my God everyday. is there anyway to show you proof of that? not that i know of...but it is irrationsal to say that all of these people are delusional. anyone that i know that has ever experinced the annointing of God has said it was God and most are about as adament as I am about it. Take all the people who hae ever shared this and that would prolly be the biggest delusion the world has ever faced...
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 11:49 AM
I was Christian for many years....I am under full belief that when GOD "Talks" to them, all it is, is their own conscience speaking to them. I was under the belief, as well as every other Christian out there, that it was GOD speaking to me. When I look back, it seems pretty silly.
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 11:54 AM
I also fully believe that when Jesus was hanging on the cross, when he asked GOD why was he forsaking him, Jesus finally figured out that no supreme being was there to take him off that thing, which he probably thought was supposed to happen. Brings to mind that cult who killed themselves to catch the damned comet in time to go to heaven. I bet they feel pretty stupid now.
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:00 PM
Also, Lindsay, to educate you a little, that book you read, "The Bible" went through many translations. The old testiment was writen in Ancient Hebrew, a language that maybe only 7 or 8 scholars could understand. The verbs in Hebrew had many meanings to them, each meaning drastically could change a sentences meaning. Thats something you probably won't here in church. Go back and re read the story of Moses and you will see what he actually did was SLAUGHTER people in the name of GOD. His people were ordered to rape and murder, to steal and destroy ANYONE that did not believe in GOD. Kinda like an ethnic cleansing. Almost reminds me of Osama or Hitler. But hey, don't take my word for it, it's in your bible.
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:09 PM
so why do humans have a conscience? Im not sure what you believe but most people on here believe that there is no God..so if there is no God then what we evolved from had no conscience or human characteristics of that kind. so why do we have them? where did they come from?

what is the explanation for what christians call Gods annointing. im going to assume that you have participated in praise and worship while you were a christian. if im wrong then sorry but i would like to know what it is. i mean do you know the persence i am talking about? when youre praising God and this supernatural feeling befals you..sometimes it almost feels as though all of your problems just melt away. have you ever had the experince during praise and worship where the presence is so strong that you can stand up? what about when someone you dont know comes up and whispers something in your ear that is relevant to what you have been crying to God about..this person doesnt no what youre going through..ive talked to some of my friends during praise and worship(and a few strangers)..just said something simple that didnt make any sense to me but made them cry and later they say that it was something that they really needed to hear or soemthing that they had been praying about..i had no idea..i dont get it..i cant read minds. so what told me? i no its not me conscience ...soooo what is it?? if you can tell me then i would really like to know cuz i can only think of God...but if theres another reason for this then please tell me. i really want to know.
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:09 PM
Now Im off topic again....damn it.
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:12 PM
my pastors dont hide things from me their like second parents

can you show me where yo u got this information? i wanna read it.
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:13 PM
so if Jesus brought people back to life then why couldnt he got off of a cross?
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:14 PM
Read the story of Moses, With an open mind. Read it straight from your bible, the King James Version. It's all there.
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:14 PM
"Jesus said that three days after His burial He would come back to life. On the third day after His crucifixion, the almost two-ton boulder in front of His tomb was catapulted up a slope.16 The guard of well-trained Roman soldiers saw a blinding light and an angel. The tomb was empty, except for the burial clothes that had been wrapped around Jesus' body. Over the years, legal, historical and logical analysis has been applied to Jesus' resurrection and the most feasible conclusion still is that Jesus rose from the dead."
Marilyn Adamson
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:15 PM
alrighty then
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:16 PM
can you answer my questions about gods annoiting and stuff? i want to see if there are other explanations
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:20 PM
wouldnt it make more sense that your conscience is the holy sprit? the bible says that the holy spirit was sent to the earth to help us..to comfort us..why could the Holy Spritit not be our conscience? otherwise where did our conscience come from?
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:21 PM
Also, Jesus was an activast. You have seen those WWJD bracelets. Well, here is what jesus did, and it is in the bible, and I doubt your parents encourage this behavior:

Jesus hanged around criminals, prostitutes, and theives.
He defied the laws of the land. (The bible says to obey them)
He caused havoc and at times destroying property (He stormed into a market place and got pretty pissed because of the greed)
Personally, I respect the man....But most Christians have this wimpy view of him:
Jesus turned the other cheek. (That was a Macho thing to do back then, it's an intimidation tactic, it wasn't because he didn't wan't to fight. Almost the same as spitting in someone's face.)
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:23 PM
You have to recieve the Holy Spirit by asking God's forgiveness....The conscience does not come from that. Everyone has a conscience. Not everyone asked for God's forgivness.
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:26 PM
lol actually people talk about jesus hanging out with sinners all the time. its good that he did. not all of my friends are christians. then again im not going to endanger myself or allow people to corrupt me.

if the laws of the land disagree with the laws of God or the bible then i believe that they should be defied. i no that the bible says to follow the laws of the land but God made these people and if their laws dont agree with his then im going to go with gods laws not peoples.

ill comment on the rest later i g2g
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 12:33 PM
Now, you just proved a point I was about to bring up. The bible can be twisted in at least 3 different ways and it upholds any view point because it only contains vague responses that can't logically be dealt with to only come to 1 conclusion. Thats why it is impossible to prove or dis prove the meaning's. But I like the fact you actually defended it the way you did. No idiotic responses that we are used to hearing in here.
lindsay
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 05:22 PM
i didnt really think the holy spirit thing through as soon as i read your comment i realize how stupid it had sounded anyway if i would have thought for a moment i would have realized that we have a conscience because we were made in Gods image

the bible says that its like unbelievers have blinders over their eyes. they cant see the true meanings of the bible. ive found after talking with friends that this is very true. but intelectual skeptics take the scriptures try and understand them and most of the time unintentionaly misunderstand or twist the words.

do you know the answer to the questions I asked about praise and worship..the whole Gods annointing and the people knowing things that they shouldnt? if so please explain but if not its fine. i just want to know if anyone can offer a logical explanation becuase the only way I can find that seems real is God.
Boo
in The Land of the Haggii...
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 05:34 PM
the bible says that its like unbelievers have blinders over their eyes. they cant see the true meanings of the bible

So, basically, the [book that was made up by men] says that people who don't believe in the 'true meanings' of the [book that was made up by men] are wrong?
I'm hardly surprised.

And please, tell me you understand this.

The onus of proof is on you. Personal experiences are not proof.

If you don't think of anything else in my post, please try to understand that.

If I claimed to know my god, who was totally different from yours, you wouldn't assume I was right. Because you only have my (anonymous) word for it. And vice versa.
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 09:24 PM
God gave them the words to write. its what God does..he uses his people on earth to do his works....not that hard

fine if you had an experince with your God then im very interested and want to hear about it. if there are other people in the world that have the same types of experince then it could be considered credible. 2.1 billion christians in the world right now..most christians have had at least one experince with God and many that arent even christians have also..in fact most of the poeple that I know has had an experince with God even if it was just for a second. as i have said before add up all of the other people that have encountered my God form history and then all of the miracles done in his name and that should be considered...not ignored. courts have witnesses becuase the witneses have personal testimonies like christians do..coutrs consider them you should to..blahblah ive said this before either in this topic or the million dollar one..
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 09:39 PM
As much as I would like to respond, I'm on holidays now so I don't have the internet time to study the thread. I'll have to wait until I'm back at work! Anyway, Cranky Media Guy, Boo and Sir Stephen are doing a great job for our side (the good guys).
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 10:34 PM
well its been basically me debating them for the last couple of pages so i would hope that they are doing a great job seeing as im a stupid kid with no evidense to back up anything i say. it should be very simple for them to tear apart anything i say and if it wasnt then i would be worried. ive got a while to build up my evidense and when ive had as much time to figure things out as you guys have i promise to have a better argument lol but thank you its helped me work on things.

i dont wanna be a good guy ima girl 😛
crankymediaguy
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 12:35 AM
Captain Al said:

"Anyway, Cranky Media Guy, Boo and Sir Stephen are doing a great job for our side (the good guys)."

Well, we try, Al, but dealing with the Credulity Crowd is like trying to hold back the tide with a tea cup (and no, believers, it ISN'T because your arguments are so good).

Don't worry about this nonsense, Al. Enjoy your vacation. We'll be here when you get back.
Boo
in The Land of the Haggii...
 Member
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 02:48 AM
Have fun Al.
We'll fight the good fight.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 06:40 AM
I think you believers--and non-believers, actually--might get a kick and/or laugh out of this:
http://celebritymedium.livejournal.com/ . I know I did.
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 07:08 AM
Lindsay said
"The bible says that its like unbelievers have blinders over their eyes. they cant see the true meanings of the bible."

Well of course it says that. It's just an escape clause with no direction.

Also, No one even had a bible until 200 years after Jesus died. It was assembled by the Romans to aid in controling the unruley Christians. Think about that one.

Also all the Holidays you worship are Pagan holidays with a christian meaning stamped on them. Historians, even the Christian ones, will admit this. But you won't hear it in church.
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 07:27 AM
Lindsay said:
"do you know the answer to the questions I asked about praise and worship..the whole Gods annointing and the people knowing things that they shouldnt?"
Every religion out there has some sort of ritual and prayer. Miracles happen in EVERY religion. I studied magik for a few years until I discovered that it's the same line of crap that the bible offered. I seen things and expierienced things that I felt couldn't be possible. The same things happen in Christianity. Whether your praying, meditating, or casting a spell, you get the same results. The mind is a wanderous thing.

Just to educate you before you give me the Satan speach, Satan does not exist in Wicca (witchcraft)
and Sorcery. That's another story I don't want to get into explaining. Go read a ligitament book on that to find the history. Everything you learned in church about it is actually completly wrong. That kinda pissed me off that I was lied too about that. Back then, if you didn't convert to Christianity, you were accused of worshipping Satan and was executed.

But I don't live by any religion now. I actually live my life for me and the people I care about. I am also much happier now that I don't deal with the stress of another world or a GOD.
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 07:36 AM
Also, Lindsay, Science and Math was considered evil, because the rulers of the countries did NOT want the people educated. They had appointed people to be educated, they were called Priests'.

Only the preists were allowed to read the bible, so the common people (Christians) pretty much did what ever the preist said.

Also, all the wanderful thing's you enjoy today, TV, radio, phones, computers, lighters, even medication, Would have been considered tools of the devil because they give you abilities that are beyond human nature. Back then, knowing Math would have gotten you killed for witchcraft. Ofcoarse things aren't like that now, but they were when the Christian bible surfaced for the first time.
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 07:51 AM
Even Slavery is ok'd in the bible. Thats how Christian America justified owning slaves. Thats how the bible can be used to justify almost anything bad that has happened in history.
Also GOD does not love everyone as what is taught in some denominations. I can't remember the names of the brothers, but the bible states that God HATED one and loved the other. There are a few other passages that state who God hated also, in the bible.

I am done with this. This would be a never ending discussion with no conclusion.
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 08:01 AM
One more thing to point out, and I am done....
To give you an example on how the bible gets mistruded, Im sure you heard that basically a Rich man has the same chances of entering Heaven as a Camel's chance of going through the eye of a needle.
Here is a reality check! The eye of the needle was a City Entrance, it was very short and narror to prevent an attack, !!!! The only way a Camel could enter was on it's KNEES. So a richman can enter heaven the same way. So now we have one version that says a rich man basically can't enter Heaven, and one that says he can....Hmmmm...Interesting.

But you wouldn't know that unless you study history. Ask your pastor about that and see if he knows that. Most won't.
But thats an example of how the bible can give you 2 different version's. An educated person can see a version the uneducated can't. Thats why christians were supposed to be left in the dark and uneducated, to be made to believe anything that wasn't true.
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 09:15 AM
'Mistruded'? Stephen, you're as bad as the kooks half the time. 😊
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 09:22 AM
I meant "Misconstruded....I was too lazy to change it.
Lindsay
Member
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 09:50 AM
id love to respond to all of this but i dont even have time to read it im going on vacation with my faimly and then im going to camp so idk if ill have time for this thing anymore this last week has just been not very busy lol except for last night

byebye
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 10:10 AM
Misconstruded still isn't a word.
X
in McKinney, TX
 Member
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 10:12 AM
It is now Chary....back off!
Larry
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 | 03:59 PM
I
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