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How Did Jesus Really Die?????
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Posted By:
X
in McKinney, TX
Jun 08, 2005
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Some people believe that Jesus Didn't die on the cross....Some speculate that He was so dehidrated that the blood flow slowed down so he didn't bleed to death and was awoken by Mary after he was placed in Tomb simply by giving him water....
A new scientific study shows something else. A blood clot???? Here is the link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8139434/
<b>Update: No new comments can be added to this thread. </b>
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Comments
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Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 10:00 AM
They are assuming that Jesus actually existed, something for which there is no proof.
Assuming he did, what difference does it make. If someone is shot with a gun, could the defense say he died of blood loss, not the bullet? |
X
in McKinney, TX
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 10:18 AM
Jesus is mentioned in history, even in Muslim culture, as well as other historic records....Whether he was who he said he was is another story..... |
X
in McKinney, TX
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 10:20 AM
I am not a religious person, but I believe that Jesus was a real "man". Also stories you read about him pretty much say he was a bad ass, had an attitude. Christians seem to always show him as this loving caring "Nice" person. |
String Bean
in love with himself
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 12:36 PM
Everyone knows that Jesus moved to Vegas and started the very first lounge bar. It's science. |
X
in McKinney, TX
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 12:53 PM
Well yeah, thats where he met Mary and Bob.....but thats common knowledge. |
sfhjdofj
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 06:42 AM
what next? santa clause did not exist? |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 08:15 AM
There is more evidence for the existence of Santa Claus than there is for Jesus. |
Nick
in Merrie Olde Englande
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 08:55 AM
Captain, i beg of you, please enlarge on this |
dfghui
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 09:45 AM
The basis for the Christian-era Santa Claus is Bishop Nicholas of Smyrna (Izmir), in what is now Turkey. Nicholas lived in the 4th century A.D. He was very rich, generous, and loving toward children. Often he gave joy to poor children by throwing gifts in through their windows.
vs
Paul and other Christians of his day believed that "Jesus" had lived in obscurity at some unknown point in the past, perhaps two or three centuries before their time. The problem is, there seems to be no more evidence in the epistles that Paul has such a figure in mind than there is for his knowledge of a Jesus of Nazareth who had lived and died during the reign of Herod Antipas. Rather, everything in Paul points to a belief in an entirely divine Son who "lived" and acted in the spiritual realm, in the same mythical setting in which all the other savior deities of the day were seen to operate. |
sdfghukj
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 09:48 AM
it is possible that paul did exist.. |
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 10:03 AM
The msn article would still mean that Jesus ceased to be alive while on the cross.
Let's take a look at what was happening to his body: He'd been scourged - so he was already bleeding a lot. The crown of thorns had been placed on his ahead - again more blood loss. Spikes driven through his hands/wrists (depending on what you read), damaging several arteries and veins. A spike through his feet - again, veins/arteries severed/destroyed. The blood in those veins may have bled into him, as well as out. He was stabbed in the side after his blood had seperated from the water in his body.
So, even if the blood clot was the straw that broke the camel's back, I don't think we should rule out any other of the injuries as 'non-threatening'.
And as far as dehydration goes...I'm sure he was dehydrated...the water drained out of his body through a hole in his side. |
Nick
in Merrie Olde Englande
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 10:14 AM
there is evidence from various Roman writers, such as Josephus and Tacitus, as well as the Talmut, which record a man named Jesus from Nazareth being executed on a charge of claiming to be King of the Jews. The contemporary evidence that shows that Jesus lived fills more volumes than that which proves Julius Ceasar existed. |
safgsgh
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 11:53 AM
Many scholars see the Biblical narrative of Jesus' life as a mythologised account of a historical figure, aimed at winning new converts rather than being a neutral historical record. This includes the idea that interpretations of Jesus' sayings are secondhand and literary extrapolations from his actions and include mythologized invented detail, or indeed simply reinterpretations of older myths; virgin births, sacrifice and so on were common features of 'pagan godmen.'
Although the existence of a historical figure named Jesus is commonly accepted by Christians and Muslims, and not questioned by most others, there is a school of thought, called mythological school, which sees Jesus as a later interpolation into one of the mystery religions which resemble Christianity. Others see the apparent relationship between Gnosticism and Christianity as based on a historical figure acting as the focal point for the linking of Jewish religious traditions and political history with a mystery religion, a syncretism - ultimately more popular among Gentiles than Jews - which would become Christianity. |
Mort
in Just left of centre
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 05:34 PM
What no-one has pointed out is the fact that Crucifiction doesn't cause death by blood-loss but rather suffication. The entire body weight is supported by the chest alone during Crucifiction (Referred to as C from now on as i can't be arsed to type it again!) There was supposed to be a block under the feet but was placed so that the victim could only stand on it on tip toes, as they tired they would evetually be forced downwards making breathing EXTREMELY difficult before ultimately killing the vic. This is Known because the practise of C has been used throughout history as a means of execution for 1000's of years. |
BugbearSloth
in earth, 3rd planet, sol system
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 10:47 PM
Jesus died of emabarassment because all the people who claim to live in His Name are dishonest, arrogant, hypcritical, and evil. |
Fender Washburn
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 11:56 PM
Whose word do we have that Jesus was re-animated?
His followers.
Who also said that he showed them the nail wounds in the palms of his hands (people weren't crucfied that way) and that a cloud came down and took him up to heaven, so to me their word is suspect.
And keep in mind that the legends of Jesus didn't start until 60 years or more after he died.
There is no evidence that Jesus was crucified on a cross at all. People were usually crucified on a post with their arms above their heads and nailed by the wrists.
The cross was a symbol long before Jesus's time. |
Creator
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 | 12:07 AM
Jesus was a real person,not a son of God.He was a manic depressive(bi-polar).It's only recently the medical science found out,that many manic depressives are suffering from Jesus-son of God syndrome. |
Creator
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 | 12:28 AM
How do I know about it.Because I've been there myself. |
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 | 05:13 AM
Seems the thread is moving to a non-thread place. Let's stick to the topic. |
Hairy Houdini
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 | 08:30 AM
Jesus died for our Sinsemilla... |
Idris
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 | 07:23 AM
i believe that everything the bible says about jesus is true, jesus did die on the cross, it was extremely painful and ultimately for us. amongst many reasons one of them for him willingly going on the cross is to show that God would sacrifice his only son so that we may all have life in all its fullness. free from the shackles of pride, hate and many other bad qualities that hold the human race slaves. sorry if it is too straight forward but that is how it is. and yes to the person who thinks christians are supposed to be perfect, christians are human first and that means many faulty electrical sparks. the reason i believe in jesus is that i recognise i am brimming over with all sorts of evil and i believe that his death and ressurection shows he has the power to redirect my heart from anger, violence, hate to everything opposite to those. and the christians you know are in the same process that i'm in, we'll never be perfect as long as we're on an imperfect world. hope what i said is informative and is understood to the core by every reader |
X
in McKinney, TX
Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 | 10:08 AM
You can't argue with an educated christian, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with expieriance. Just be thankful there aren't that many. The human mind, by nature, tries to figure out it's surroundings, including exsistance. "Religion" was the best means to do that back in the day. The mind was able to rest with a simple explanation and people believed the damndest things, because all they had was faith and lack of education. Theydidn't know how or why storms happened,, or natural disasters, or what germs were, or mental disorders. |
joe
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 | 06:10 PM
Have any of you actually read the Bible?
Have you ever wondered why you have had to make a conscious decision to reject God?
Start with Romans 2. Then try 2 Corinthians 4:1-6 and finally go back to Romans and read chapter 1 vs. 19-32 It should all start making more sense, but don't stop there -keep reading!
For those of you who judge Christianity based on what your observation of your fellow mankind is doing, please consider my illustration:
Would you consider a company's Employee handbook flawed based on the behavior of a few bad Employees? Or would you carefully read and study the handbook to make that determination? If the handbook is properly written and some employees do not follow the handbook, what then? What happens if you find out that many of the people who are employed there haven't even read the handbook or only parts of it? What if you find out that there are even people who claim to work at said company, but in reality aren't even on the payroll?
Ok, I think you get the point, I'll stop. BUT...
Why spend any of your time and energy on conjecture, opinion, and hearsay when the cold hard data is readily available to you? If you really want to know what Christianity is about, read the Bible. |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 | 07:28 PM
Joe is right. Just because some of his fellow Christians start wars for personal wealth, rape alter boys and kill believers of other faiths in the name of God's love, we should not hold it against all Christians.
Instead, we should embrace God for his tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people (at Christmas), for every earthquake that kills hundreds more and leaves them homeless, every tornado that rips through a trailer park, every drought that leaves millions starving, every child born blind or with missing limbs or with another child attached at the skull.
What's wrong with us athiests for not wanting to pick up a Bible and read about Jesus?
Yeah Joe, we see the point all right. It's on the top of your head.
<a href="http://gods4suckers.net/">God Is For Suckers!</a> |
Joe
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 | 04:22 PM
Captain Al
You jumped to insults and name calling pretty quickly there don't you think? I'd be happy to continue this debate with you, if you are truly interested.
Let me know. |
vince
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 | 04:42 PM
hey al that is soo true! their assuming that jesus did exist in that article, which he didn't.
God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4
sigh...just cuz a few things are evil he decides to drown them all.
God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10
yea lets all worship a dood who wants us 2 kill innocent animals
Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only any evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10
if i was a father and god told me 2 kill my son i wouldn't do it. does that make me a bad person?
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18
good job god ur bringing happiness to the world.
If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. 20:13
umm how come there are some gay christians? (no pun intended)
God will kill those who hate him. 7:10
i hate u god...hey nothing happened!!
If you mock your father or disobey your mother, the ravens will pick out your eyeballs and the eagles will eat them. 30:17
how come im not blind yet? i disobey my mom sometimes : ( like stayin up 2 late, should i get my eyes picked out? well u should accordin 2 dis god.
the web site dat i got all dis from and there is alot more, is http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
sigh...i can't believe people actually believe in this stuff with no proof what so ever. they say they have faith. well look up faith in the dictionary, so all those people are saying that they have an irrational belief in something? wow i actually agree with em |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 | 08:46 PM
What did you expect Joe. This is a forum about discussing and dubunking hoaxes. You show up here spewing a bunch of drivel about believing in something that is well known to be a hoax. I would have given the same response if you expressed a belief in jackalopes.
No I don't want to debate you about your god and bible. That is off topic and has been done on this site many times. This thread is about whether or not a blood clot in a person nailed to a board will kill him before bleeding will.
Besides, if you really wanted to debate, you would have offered rational explanations for the points brought up by Vince and myself. Go to the "Prove God exists and win $1,000,000" thread. There you can show that you know more than astronomers, geologists, biologists, geneticists, and physicists just by reading one book. Be prepared for insults and name calling though. |
Creator
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 | 01:06 AM
Who cares how Jesus died.He was crucified.It's a well known historical fact.What is important,who he was.A simple mortal or a son of God.
"The manic-depressive narrator of this edgy novel offers an inside look at mental illness. The one problem is that the reader has to spend so much time inside the mind of a manic depressive to get it. "I am waiting to know what I am because I don't know," begins the narrator, but as the novel progresses (and time recedes), the narrator recalls the time when he concluded he was God, sometimes the Father, sometimes the Son".
"The story begins with the record of an ongoing episode, in the summer of 1991, as Zwiren walks through Manhattan, deftly exposing the reader to the narrator's mercurial obsessions |
Creator
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 | 02:29 AM
Ignorance is Bliss.
Oh! How much I wish I were stupid. |
Accipiter
Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 | 08:30 AM
Does it matter how Jesus died? (Well, maybe it mattered to Him, assuming that He did really exist and get crucified.) But does the exact reason for His death have any impact on Christianity? For some strange reason I don't have every single line of the Bible memorized, so I don't know if there might be some little prophecy stuck somewhere in the middle of the Book of Isaiah or someplace stating, ". . .and the Messiah shall die of being stabbed in the side". |
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 | 09:51 AM
I agree with Acci. |
Creator
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 | 02:52 AM
Re-post:
Assuming,that he really was the son of god,how could he die,being immortal?Tens of thousands of people were crucified by Roman Empire at that time.What makes his suffering so different from suffering of other mortals?And how did god sucrificied his son after getting him back in heaven in a matter of few decades?Crapp! |
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 | 06:27 AM
Just b/c you're the son of God doesn't make you immortal. You're confusing Greek & Roman gods with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. |
Homosexuals are gay
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 | 07:35 AM
hey CAPTON you seem a tid bit bitter towords christions,god, and joe for standing up for what he belives, god for nateral disasters, christions for what the cathlics did hundreds of years ago oh and the raping children also cathlic priests. Well Im hear to help I thingk this hole sitiuation stems to you chield hood and I was gust wondering if you had any thing you wanted to get off you chest were you melested as a child any way on topic I beileave do to reserch on what would happen to a man put threw what jesus went threw that his hart would have imploded I can go into detal opon request |
Homosexuals are gay
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 | 07:38 AM
I am aware that I cant spell and do not need to be reminded |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 | 07:40 AM
Wow. Not a native English speaker, I presume. |
Homosexuals are gay
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 | 07:48 AM
sadly I am but as a child I was never tought how to read I had to figure that out on my own that is the mane reason my spelling is so atrochious |
X
in McKinney, TX
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 | 08:26 AM
I see notheng rong with hes speleen.
Anyway I was responding to that Joe guy when he asked if any of us have read the bible...The answer is YES...actually I study religion. What I have noticed is skeptics generally know more about the bible then christians. It's a very sad thing. And you wandered into a site filled with them!!!! |
Creator
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 | 12:49 AM
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA said:
"Just b/c you're the son of God doesn't make you immortal. You're confusing Greek & Roman gods with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob".
Are you trying to say,that Jesus never went to Heaven to join his Father,according to New Testament?
What the Old Testament characters have to do with Jesus in general? Nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Am I in a kindergarten!!!!?????? |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 | 12:54 AM
I was once on a very famous radio show which I'm not at liberty to name and I said that Jesus's death was essentially "suicide by cop."
Jesus knew that claiming to be the Messiah would upset the Romans and did it anyway. That was the 33 BC equivalent of people who hold someone hostage and defy the cops who show up to shoot them.
Hey, it's an original theory! |
Creator
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 | 01:02 AM
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA.
Greek & Roman gods+Jesus??????
Are you from this planet?????? |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 | 09:26 AM
If I could translate what Homo wrote, I could respond. I do my best though.
Homo said:
"sadly I am but as a child I was never tought how to read I had to figure that out on my own that is the mane reason my spelling is so atrochious"
I'm guessing as a child you were never taught to think either.
No I was not molested as a child, but millions were and still are. And many are molested by God-fearing priests. What happens to them? Not much it seems. In fact the church defends them and some get promoted. That's their idea of "religious morals". Must be an oxymoron. |
X
in McKinney, TX
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 | 09:37 AM
I couldn't agree more Capt. |
X
in McKinney, TX
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 | 09:41 AM
Cranky Media Guy said: "Jesus's death was essentially "suicide by cop."
I never thought of it like that, pretty good theory....He was an activist, wasn't he? |
Creator
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 | 01:07 AM
He was a troublemaker.A threat to Roman Emperors,who were concidered Gods.That was the reason for his execution. |
lindsay
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 | 10:44 PM
i think its funny how extravagant people become with their theories on the truth of Christ. Is it hard to believe that their is a creator? WHy couldn't Jesus be real? I find the life of Christ much more plausible than a giant fat man flying through the air on a sled, delivering presents to every house in the world, on just one night. If you argue in the case that creationsm isnt factual then where did everything begin? Take the big bang theory for example. Where did the first super dense piece of matter come from? Did it create itself? or did something create it? If it did created itself then that means it created matter from nothing, exceding the limitations of human beings, making it a God. If something made the matter than was it a God? Or did something make that as well. The point is there had to be something to begin with and that somthing had to create itself, therefore, it is God and created the universe from nothing. So ive established that there must be a God. If there is a God then why would it be so hard to believe that JEsus did exist and that this his crusifiction was real? I am a christian and I do believe that Jesus died on the cross. Maybe the dying for your sins is to weird for u to fathom but in reality you can hardly fathom anything in the universe. WE use 10% of our minds. Who knows what's possible. Now the reason that christianity is so realibable is that people can testify to had having experinces with God. Deep in the the pit of your stomach you get a sensation that unexaplainably almost seems like words. Many call it your consience but in fact its biblical to being the holy spirit. I can attest to having felt the power of God in my life. I have cried out on his name and only when i pray to him or in his Jesus's name am i answered. I know that I can trust in God to help me when everything else has failed and all hope seems lost. If I am stuck against a wall then he opens a window for me. When i was younger I had a basketball couch for rwo years whom I recently heard had been diagnoised with a fatal cancer found usualy only in small children. No one in the world has ever recovered from the cancer but after much prayer and faith all traces of the cancer were lost. At my church a young woman began to pray in tongues and a foreign woman who spoke no english understood what she was saying. There is a knoweldge that chrisitans obtain that is undenaibly supernatural. AS an inecesor I have felt this many times. Ive had things on my heart that God wanted me to say to people and having to previous notion that it was what they needed to hear i gave them the message. There are many times that I have felt God and in many small ways but I can say that if I know anything then it is that God is real. Even more sure that I am some creature somewhere, that I am something, I am sure that bible is real meaning the crusifiction was real. I'll save you from the endless thoughts in my mind now while I still can lol Im open for debate..but go easy im only 14 lol |
crankymediaguy
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 12:41 AM
Lindsay said:
"i think its funny how extravagant people become with their theories on the truth of Christ. Is it hard to believe that their is a creator?"
It is up to those who contend that there is a Creator to prove it. Even if we assume that there IS a Creator, why does it HAVE to be Jesus? More people on Earth believe in other deities than Jesus, you know. Are they all wrong? If you think so, please explain, using facts if possible, why you think so.
"WHy couldn't Jesus be real? I find the life of Christ much more plausible than a giant fat man flying through the air on a sled, delivering presents to every house in the world, on just one night."
Why do you make this a contest between Jesus and Santa Claus? What does one have to do with the other? Who above the age of about eight do you know who believes in Santa? The argument against Jesus being the Savior would include the fact that no one can "raise" someone from the dead, walk on water or turn water into wine, just to name a few things off the top of my head. These things are not possible today, let alone 2000 years ago.
Please don't say that Jesus could do those things because he was the Savior. That would be an exercise in "circular reasoning." If you are unfamiliar with that term, please take a moment to look it up. I don't mean to be condescending to you by saying that, by the way.
"The point is there had to be something to begin with and that somthing had to create itself, therefore, it is God and created the universe from nothing."
So, who created God? If a "God" can be self-creating, why couldn't the universe? You may not realize that there are people who believe that the universe IS God. On the other hand, there are people, like myself, who maintain that there is no credible evidence for the existance of ANY version of God.
"So ive established that there must be a God."
Um, no, but nice try.
"If there is a God then why would it be so hard to believe that JEsus did exist and that this his crusifiction was real?"
You've started with an "if" and jumped to the notion that that "if" is proof of the truth of your personal version of God. As I've mentioned before, many more people believe in a God that is NOT Jesus. If you think that your sincere faith in Jesus "proves" His divinity, logically shouldn't that be cancelled out by the sincere belief of millions of other people who disagree with you?
"I am a christian and I do believe that Jesus died on the cross. Maybe the dying for your sins is to weird for u to fathom but in reality you can hardly fathom anything in the universe."
Not strictly true. We're increasing our admittedly limited knowledge of the universe around us all the time. This Monday morning, July 4th, we're about to crash a probe into a comet for the first time in human history. We stand to learn a great deal from that experiment, just for example. The problem isn't that the crucifixion of Christ is "too weird" but that there is ZERO evidence that it occurred, let alone that it happened because Jesus was the son of God who ordered him to die for our sins.
Honestly, Lindsay, hasn't it ever crossed your mind that asking your child to die when you could easily prevent it is kind of sadistic? Is that really how a divine being would act?
"WE use 10% of our minds."
That is an old wives' tale. It is an inaccurate figure. |
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 06:02 AM
Actually, CMG, while Jesus was here for the purpose of Savior-hood, he still had a choice. Free-will. This is why he was praying in Gethsemane the night before. He always had the choice.
P.S. People keep referring to Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit as totally seperate beings. Remember, God IS Jesus IS the Holy Spirit.
Jesus the HUMAN was not immortal. God is immortal. When the form of Jesus took shape, it was a mortal form. |
lindsay
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 01:29 PM
I have strong reason to belive that Jesus is bc I have never found anything in the bible that hasnt been true. Who are humans to say wat is possible and what is not? We know so little. Science is trying to figure things out and i believe that taking religion out of many of the theories is just a way to make the universe fit into our minds. We will never understand everyhting in the universe bc it is to complex. The whole point about God creating himself is that he is God. If the universe created itself then it would be God to. But I believe in my God above all others bc I have experinced things with God. The truth is that until you have had an experince with God you will probly never believe me. You will be critical of this thinking. But everyone who has had these types of experinces agree with me. ill offer a better argument later but I have to leave and thats just skimming some thoughts off my mind so dont jump to the conclusion that I dont know what im talking about |
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 01:40 PM
Linsay...Page breaks are your friend. |
lindsay
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 01:46 PM
lol but writing in one giant paragraph is fun have fun reading it hehe |
Faith
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 02:09 PM
I myself have had an experiece with God and he is amazing! He is 3 in one The Father (God) The Son (Jesus) And the Holy Spirit. I encourage you to go to church, don't knock it until you've tried it. But you know you must go to a good church not one that will teach you nothing. Jesus will lead you to what church to go to so follow his speaking. |
Faith
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 02:15 PM
and by the way Jesus was definatly not a trouble maker! He did nothing no sin the only time he sinned was when he took our sins apoun himself to give us the choice of going to heaven or to hell. If you want heaven then all you have to do is pray and ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins. But if you want hell I just say that this was a very wrong choice. Hell is like when you die over and over again and burn forever would you like that? |
Accipiter
Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 03:16 PM
Well, here we go once again into another never-ending theological debate. The problem is that if you believe in God, then you believe in an omnipotent being who can do anything that He pleases. Therefore, anything is possible and no argument can really go against that. On the other hand, if you don't believe in God, then all the miracles and such seem too unrealistic and impossible, and you can't accept them all as being true. So I really doubt that anybody here's going to manage to convince anybody else of much. |
lindsay
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 03:21 PM
cold hard facts dont change ppls minds...passionet words or experinces can but from my experince alot of ppl cant argue with any miracles i have to offer so they over look the fact that i said it or just leave..if anyone is interested and open minded then there could possibly be changing of minds..but some ppl are set in their ways..lol u may think i am but im not I just know that God is real and besides that I change very much...one thing that I would like to say is that I believe that Jesus is just as real as all of you are. I have felt, heard, been influenced by, and sensed God on many occasions |
Accipiter
Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 03:57 PM
The people in this place tend to be the more skeptical types of people, which makes taking things on faith alone rather difficult for many of them. You'll probably find a larger percentage of doubters here than you would on a more general website. |
crankymediaguy
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 04:44 PM
Lindsay said:
"cold hard facts dont change ppls minds...passionet words or experinces can but from my experince alot of ppl cant argue with any miracles i have to offer so they over look the fact that i said it or just leave."
Facts are the only thing that SHOULD influence your opinions. I agree with you that a lot of people are more influenced by a passionate argument than by factual evidence but that is a shame.
"one thing that I would like to say is that I believe that Jesus is just as real as all of you are. I have felt, heard, been influenced by, and sensed God on many occasions"
No matter how sincere or passionate your belief in something is, that does not and will never amount to PROOF that it is real, true or correct.
Suppose I was to tell you that I was absolutely certain that the Earth is flat, that I believed that with every fiber of my being. Would that PROVE to you that it is? If not, why not? After all, I completely BELIEVE it. How can my sincere FAITH be wrong? That's essentially the argument you're using: you believe in something so it HAS to be right. Sorry, that isn't proof of anything. As I have pointed out before, many many other people believe in a deity other than the one you believe in. They are every bit as sincere as you are. Why are they wrong but you are right? Please explain.
As far as I'm concerned, you have the legal right to believe anything you want but merely repeating the fact that you believe in it will never constitute "proof" of the validity of your belief(s). Repetition will not change that, either. |
crankymediaguy
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 04:50 PM
Faith said:
"and by the way Jesus was definatly not a trouble maker! He did nothing no sin the only time he sinned was when he took our sins apoun himself to give us the choice of going to heaven or to hell. If you want heaven then all you have to do is pray and ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins. But if you want hell I just say that this was a very wrong choice. Hell is like when you die over and over again and burn forever would you like that?"
Faith, please read my comments to Lindsay above. The main problem with your "reasoning" is that you start with an assumption--that there is a God--then you pile many assumptions on top of it. At the end, you essentially look people in the eye and say, "There you go!" as if you've made a logical, cogent argument. If any single part of your "argument" is wrong (and I believe they ALL are), the entire thing falls apart.
Yes, I realize that the chance of causing you to rethink your position is slim to none, but I'm treating you like an adult by pointing out the flaw(s) in your thinking. There's always a (small) chance that you'll come around.
Please don't respond by simply repeating the unproven assertions you've already given. |
crankymediaguy
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 05:04 PM
Maegan said:
"Actually, CMG, while Jesus was here for the purpose of Savior-hood, he still had a choice. Free-will. This is why he was praying in Gethsemane the night before. He always had the choice."
You managed to miss my point entirely. Isn't it just a wee bit sadistic for "God the Father" to ask his son to allow himself to be murdered? God, by definition, can do anything at all, even if it would defy the known laws of physics (kind of like Troy Hurtubise now that I think about it). So that MUST mean that God the Father could have prevented the whole situation. Allowing your child to be murdered seems like a rather inefficient way--to say the least--to resolve a problem given that you can do absolutely anything at all. Keep in mind, of course, that I think the whole thing is a bunch of bullshit.
"P.S. People keep referring to Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit as totally seperate beings. Remember, God IS Jesus IS the Holy Spirit."
Well, yes, that's certainly the B.S. story they fed me in Catholic school.
"Jesus the HUMAN was not immortal. God is immortal. When the form of Jesus took shape, it was a mortal form."
I refer you to my previous comment. |
lindsay
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 10:04 PM
lol my argument is completely different than the earth being flat. I have reason to believe it. Once again the fact that I have had experinces with God is over looked.
Lets put it this way. This is a pretty crummy metaphor bc of the knowledge that we really do have but put it aside for a few moments and try to see my point.
If I looked at the earth from outer space and saw with my own eyes that it was flat, then indeed it would be flat and I would believe it. Now lets say that I came back down to Earth and told everyone about my new discovery but eveyone was skeptical. People just couldnt believe that the earth was flat bc of the knowlege that they believe makes the most sense. People devoloped thousands of theories as to why the Earth couldn't be flat or to me being seeing it wrong. But the fact is that I saw that the Earth was flat and the skeptics had not. All of the people that went to space and looked at the earth agreed with me but the ones who had not seen it refused to believe that the Earth was flat.
lol so that wasnt the greatest metaphor or anything but ive had a long day sorry my mind isnt really working to well right now.
now in real life we know for certain that the Earth isnt flat. You could win the arguement easily. So that is a horrible metaphor to the situation. everyone always argues why God can be real but why dont you tell me why God cant be real?
your belief is that only facts should influence ones desicion but i dont agree with that. Have you ever watched a movie where a lawyer knew for certain that someone had commited a crime but couldnt prove it in court bc of lack of information. Without a shawdow of doubt the lawyer can see that the person is guilty, but sometimes cold hard facts cant do justin to a situation. Maybe if we were all robots facts should be the only thing to infulence us but when believe, morals, passion, and other emotions run our lives and not facts than it could be possible that we should use those emotions to influence our emotions. If people are changed by passion than passion is what should change us. Saying that only facts should influence is rather vague and strips away our humanity. Not everything can be explained so that it can fit into our thinking capacity and yet you want only facts. This is what really bothers me about these types of beliefs. Its so cold. We have feelings we have passions we should use them its how we were made. Facts dont influence most people for a reason.
just give me the holes in that and ill fix them my mind isnt working well right now
😛 |
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