MOH Forum: Prove God Exists and Get $1,000,000

Prove God Exists and Get $1,000,000

Posted By:
Lord Lucan
in somewhere strange
Jan 12, 2005

<a href="http://www.thinkandreason.com/" title="Think and Reason">Think and Reason</a> is offering $1,000,000 if you can<b> prove</b> that God exists. There are conditions attached. But they do say: <i>"All you have to do is prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God exists. It is really that easy!"</i>

Is there really this money sitting waiting?

Supposing I said I was God - and prove I exist (should be easy) - is the money mine?

Category: Money, Religion; Replies: 1406

Comments

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Tyler	Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 \| 12:28 PM Meh, I'm at work and not really trying to put up a good argument... Just trying to pass the time. Lindsay- The sentence you are referencing uses the sins that follow: Eating meat on a Friday Working on Sunday (When I have a good margin of time to work with I will post every sin I can think of that we've just pushed aside because they don't work with our schedules / lifestyles in this day and age.) I would just like some sort of proof. I mean yeah some people were born poor, but why? What's the point of Poor, Lower-Middle Class, Upper-Middle Class, etc? Are some people more worthy than others? Did something my family did years ago constitute the fact that I had to live on the streets of L.A. for 3 years because we didn't have any money? (And no, I'm not looking for hand-outs, just mentioning a personal fact as reference) == Also, I think all the believer bashing can continue, but that the "atheist" bashing must stop. Every person I talk to that is a believer pretty much lumps all people who believe otherwise as "atheist", what about Agnostic, there are loads of different religions that you could lump a few people into so that the atheist boat isn't overflowing.
lindsay	Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 \| 01:19 PM tyler- so youre adressing our sins? ok well im not God so my actions dont define him. same for all other humans God didnt create the class system ppl did. when ppl are in heaven there will be no predjudice or anything, we will all finally be equal just like God wanted it. humans are the ones who think that some ppl are better than others. not God. he loves us all the same. things in life happen, bad things happen, good things happen. not everything is God's fault. unless youve allowed him to have every single aspect of your life, unless youve invited him to do in your life as he wishes, and have been 100% obediant, then you cant blame the way that your life worked out because of God. same for everyone else. God will work in your life as long as you invite him to. he wont push his way in. unfortuanetly we are perfect and we sin. sin = eventual death. it kills us, causes bad things to happen. its ruining the world and has created what you see now. God knows what is best for our life, that is why his will is perfect. if he will ran our life then wed have a perfect life. but alot of the time, ppl dont want what God want because they arent perfect and dont know what is best for them. when something happens that they didnt want, they decide that something bad happens. then alot of the time they pull away from God and dont let him finish his plan. sometimes ppl will stay will God and after time they are able to see that what happened was really good. point? that sometimes what looks bad is really good. which means that our judgement is not perfect. you want proof that there is a God? well thats fine because I dont believe in God for no reason. 1. there is no scientific proof that god isnt real. so i think that my belief is just as good as any one elses. 2. God has spoken to me. I've felt him. He's taught me things. Whenever i listen to God my life goes beautifully, but when i try to do things my own way, things get messed up. obviously because im not perfect. God has done so many miracles in my life, ive felt his peace. and that is something that doesnt come from this earth. believe me. he gives me stregnth, he gives we wisdom, he helps in every possible way to live. im never sad anymore because of what god has taught me. never ever. not even when crap happens. i have plenty reason to be sad, but his divine peace keeps me happy even when things hurt. im an innessor, so he lets me feel other ppls pain or lets me know things that i have no way of knowing. how do i know that this being is the God of the christians? it doesnt matter what anyone calls him really because I don't have to know him by name. I know him by what he's shown me, and who he is. he doesnt need a name. if he told me to call him llama, then llama would be his name. all that I know is that Jesus, and the God of the bible feels right. he always answers by that identity. i can feel him tell me thats who he is. i can fight it with whatever logic i may want to fight it with, but his words will always be stronger than my stupid knoweledge. what do humans reall know anyway? most of us dont even know who we are. the way i see it, theres no reason for me not to believe in God. i've felt him, heard him..hes shown himself to me so much. I know that he is real. that is my proof. but you cant take someone elses expiernces for your own proof. you have to go out and try and meet Jesus. really look for him. then youll know what I'm talking about. you must meet him for yourself or else youll never really understand why christians love him so much and why we know that he is real. why we walk by faith and not by sight. I hope that you meet God someday, all of you actually, he's wonderful. teehee i love Jesus. he rocks my face off
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 \| 02:16 PM Lindsay said: "lol well cranky before anyone can disprove your theories about the kangroos we need more info. so why do you think that there are kangraroos on the dark side of the moon? tell us a little more about them so that we can be knoweldgable enough to debate the fact." No, I INSIST you attempt to disprove my belief! I believe in it because I read a book that says it. Oh, by the way, the book also said that the kangaroos are the ONLY God in the Universe! It further said that anyone who doesn't believe in the kangaroos is wrong. If you can't prove that they don't exist AND that they are the only God, then that means that I'm right and your beliefs are wrong. If you duck the question, I win, as well. Go ahead, prove my beliefs wrong.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 \| 02:26 PM Lindsay said: "cranky plz look up the defintion of God and tell me why a "god" would have limitations? i know that you dont believe in God, but pretend that you do, read that. and now youll see why it sounds rediculous. youre saying that the bible cant be true because it has things that are impossible? i think that was the point. their miracles and super natural happenings, when do occur, they arent supposed to be something that you see everyday." The problem is that you are starting, not with a blank slate, but with an assumption: that there is a God in the first place. Sure, if you start off with the assumption that there is an all-powerful being, then anything would be possible. The existance or non-existance of God should be your CONCLUSION after examining the available evidence, not something assumed going in to the process of looking at the world around you. If you start off with such a huge assumption, it automatically biases everything you look at. Suddenly, a man living inside a whale (or "big fish") isn't absurd. Do you honestly see what I'm saying here? On a more mundane level, it's like assuming that a politician would never lie. If you make that assumption, then you'd be forced to think that there MUST have been WMD in Iraq, and so on. To be intellectually honest, you don't START with what should be a conclusion; you start with the available evidence and word TOWARD a conclusion. This is not a minor point. I think it's a large part of the difference in the thinking styles, if you will, of believers versus non-believers. If you begin your "examination" of the world around you with the HUGE presumption that there "must" be a God, there's no way you can come to a different conclusion. You aren't being objective; everything that will follow that assumption must be biased and therefore invalid.
Lindsay Member	Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 \| 02:33 PM now cranky, cmon on, i know that you can do better than that with your whole kangaroo medaphor. does my proof of God soley rest in the bible? no 1. we need proof that such a book even exists 2. reason that you believe this. have you communicated with said kangaroos? what leads you to believe this? 3. do you have any mental illnesses? does anyone else believe this or are you just completely crazy? 4. you must actually believe that and you dont so it would pointless to continue. that was a sucky metaphor no offense. cranky give me one good reason that i shouldnt believe in God based on my personal proof that i shared. just one. and also why do you believe that its so absurd that my God would be real? what is your belief? how do you believe that everything came into existence? youve never really answered that and id like to know. if youd be so kind.
Lindsay Member	Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 \| 02:46 PM i dont see why it should just first be assumed that there is no God...nothing in my life ever concludes to that..it doesnt makes sense. its pretty crazy to believe that everything is how it is by chance. the universe, the make up of it, how it runs, looks pretty planned to me. if youre saying im not open minded then fix your look on life first because no offense you dont seem to be too open minded. i dont turn my cheek on things, i consider them. but ive always had more proof in my life that god is real. hes just as real my mom or brother all my friends. i dont automatically assume that they arent real do I? ive got not one reason to believe that God is not real. so just because some ppl think its more logical that the universe is the way it is by coincidense, doesnt mean that i have to live by it. i dont find that logical no offense.
Lindsay Member	Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 \| 03:20 PM here if you want me to establish why there must be a God then follow this, i think that there are 4 different articles. its kinda long because they explain it very thoroughly in a way that everyone can understand. if you want to reason out the existance of God then go ahead and read through this http://everystudent.com/journeys/nothing.html the eternal someone can also be called God. if you think about it, that is basically what a God would be. i cant think of any better terms to put what they said in. im sure that you understood all of that. now if youd like to know why the eternal something is my god then im willing to tell you. but for the most part i beleive it is something that you must expiernce yourself.
Carter S	Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 \| 10:24 PM That website couldn't have explained it better. Lindsay, you're right. For someone to actually beleive in God they can't be convinced through word. They have to experience it for themselves. For the non-believers, Just for one week, believe in god, just try it. Give your faith to him. Try to do good,(not saying that just because you don't believe, that you aren't a good person or do good things.) try to contemplate the whole complex world that we live in. Think about the complexity of how things are and how things became. Some might say that biology (science) was the reason life exists. Then ask your self this. How did science come about, in such a perfect way, that it actually created such complex beings and objects. I don't know just try it. If you have and still don't believe then you can say that you have had faith, but it didn't work for you. But at least you tried it. Give it a shot. why not, it doesn't take up your day. If it doesn't work for you, then continue on with your believes. But God Loves you No matter what. And Im out!!! ps. "Fallout Boy" rocks, I recommend that everyone gets their cd. And get "the Used", they are great bands. Lindsay I like your words, "rocks my face off", I will probably say that in casual conversation along with 'keep on truckin'. Now I am out!!! God rocks my face off!!! He's great!!1
Raoul Duke Member	Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 \| 10:41 PM And I say that there is indeed NOT a God due the fact that Fallout Boy, and The Used exist.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 01:15 AM Carter S said: "For the non-believers, Just for one week, believe in god, just try it. Give your faith to him." First off, Carter, why do you assume that we non-believers HAVEN'T tried believing? I had 12 years of Catholic school and church as a boy. I am not a non-believer because I haven't had any religious training, obviously. Tell you what, why don't you try REALITY for a while? Stop believing in all the silly stuff and rationalizations it takes to be involved in organized religion. For starters, how about the way that when something good happens, believers praise God but when something bad happens, they say that God isn't responsible. Talk about a no-lose game, huh? Hit the lottery? God's work. Lose your house in a flood? Shit happens. A little consistency would be nice. How about you try THAT?
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 01:34 AM Lindsay said: You just gave very good reasons NOT to believe in God, whether or not you realize it. "cranky give me one good reason that i shouldnt believe in God based on my personal proof that i shared. just one." None of the points you made constitute PROOF. The fact that a person believes in something--like my moon kangaroos--proves exactly NOTHING. If I were to say to you that I absolutely believe in them, would that "prove" to you that they existed? So there's a book that says that some things happened. So what? There are thousands of such books in the average library. Using your "logic," you must believe in all of them, right? I'll say this again: You belief, no matter how sincere (and I have no reason to think you aren't sincere) in no way demonstrates the truth (or even existance) of something. It may or may not exist or be true, but your belief in it is NOT the proof of that. This is such a simple and obvious point that it's somewhat frustrating when believers ignore (or fail to understand) it. Put another way, if I could convince you that I was absolutely sincere in my belief in the moon-roos, using your logic, wouldn't you have to accept them as real, too? After all, I'm sincere, therefore what I'm saying must be true, right? As far as the "crazy" thing goes, uh, suppose someone is crazy and a sincere Christian at the same time. What then? I have met people exactly like that. In fact, when I worked outside the White House I met at least TWO people who thought that they were the Second Coming of Christ. I can assure you that they were 100% sincere in what they said. Should I have worshipped them?
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 01:41 AM Lindsay said: "i dont see why it should just first be assumed that there is no God" Well, you just kind of proved my point. If you can't start off with no assumptions (that there IS a God or ISN'T a God) you can only end up with what you started with. You can't even consider the possibility that there might not be a God, so you can't be objective. As for me, I've never said that there absolutely is no God. What I've said, and what I will stand by, is that there is no evidence that proves there is one and therefore there is no reason to believe in one. As I've mentioned before, I had 12 years of Christian training; it isn't as if I haven't been exposed to that stuff. As I got older, I just started to realize what a bunch of nonsense and rationalizing it all is. Remember: If something good occurs: Praise God! If something bad occurs: Shit happens!
Lindsay Member	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 10:44 AM cranky- i didnt say that my belief constituted it as proof, i said give me one good reason why i shouldnt believe in God. i just want to see if there is is one. i mean this is the way i see it 1. no one can proof that God isnt real 2. ive expiernced God 3. logically in my mind my religion fits why shouldnt I believe in him? why wouldnt he be real? over the many years that the world has existed there have been countless people who claim the same thing as sincerely as I do. how can all be encountering a God that doesnt exist? theres alot of religions that have the same God as me, somehow the modern day religion is different. but in the beginning, it was the same. i dont see any reason not to believe in God. i know that you do, but if you had expiernced God like I have then you wouldnt see on either. i mean, no offense, but all you guys have is human logic. that's it. and humans are wrong alot, I wouldn't place to much trust in that. which all goes back to how well never know the secrets of the universe..yet you guys always try. do not trust your expiernces, trust futile logic that will is quite small comapared to everything else that exists. i mean seriously, nothing can come from an empty room. there has to be an eternal someone. I don't see anyway around that. so who is your eternal someone? sorry, but just because you heard ppl tell you about God for 12 years, doesnt mean that you know him. theres alot of ppl who are raised as a catholic or christian or w/e and never know God. organized religion...I just love my creator. I do what he says, not what other ppl said that he says. if he ever disagrees with the bible then i guess that hell tell me. but the church is a place for us to come together as a family, worship God, and grow in our faith. it just sounds so..idk..sucky when you call it organized religion. were a family. id rather be called that. God doesnt make the bad things happen, thats why we dont blame him. sin and human and the devil make bad things happen. Christ prevents it. I don't believe in chance or coincidense. so I guess it's either the world or the Lord. And the Lord is going to give me alot more good things than the world is. why not praise my God for good things that happen? and no one commented on the article except for carter. i mean at least tell me if you agree or disagree. if you disagree then where is the whole in it? cmon ppl!!! im seriously interested. i liked that article and I want to know the holes in it. ps. theres too many bands that I could reccommend, but on the the top of my list would have to be emery, mewithoutyou, the beautiful mistake, and slingshot 57. their pretty much just amazing
Lindsay Member	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 10:52 AM oh yeah and about the crazy thing. yes, there are some crazy christians. so i guess that you cant trust their expiernce very well. but yoiu really cant say that all of the people who have ever expiernced God are crazy. as ive said before, if we all have Schizophrenia then you had better notify medical experts because its much more widespread than before. we could have a serious problem on our hands. and if our mind really tricks us that much then who knows what else it can trick us about, maybe ur really a snail. but ur mind has created this world. and you cant say that snails dont have that kind of intellegence! you mind could be tricking you to believe that. on the other hand for the kangaroos, if youre the only one who believes it, and so far you are as the rest of us no, then youre much more liable to be a crazy. or to be wrong. or lying. but hey lets say that youre not crazy and that youre sincere then maybe they do exist. maybe we have the same God. who is to say that my God cant look like a kangaroo and reside on the dark side of the moon? he can do anything after all. I like what carter said. what do you have to lose? I mean youll get us crazy christians off your back. really, truly search for God. i mean you have to be willing to consider that. right? so truly search for God. and watch for him. live like a christian for a week. maybe even go to a church. gasp lol. Id try to act like an athiest for a week but I have my limitations. I really am not capable of doing that. ive expiernced God to much. if hes not real, then were all crazy or all being tricked. but that doesnt matter, all well lose is our dignity. you actually have something to lose though.
Lindsay Member	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 11:13 AM before this gets thrown back at me i want to make it very clear that I have considered your theories, that maybe god isnt real. but haha that was short lived. very very short lived. God is the only one that i could ever live for. while I was thinking about it actually I was thinking of everyone elses beliefs and realized that many of them could fit into God. I don't actually just rule out everyone elses beliefs just because of mine, I try to look at the bigger picture, in a way that people normaly dont look at it. Most of the time the pictures can fit together. but that doesnt mean that I live by them, i just consider them. so i hope that all of you can do the same with christianity. be one of us crazies for a week. its quite fun. youve got nothing too lose and much to gain. so tryyyyyyy it. pwease :cheese:
Lindsay Member	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 11:44 AM "I absolutely believe in them, would that "prove" to you that they existed? So there's a book that says that some things happened. So what? There are thousands of such books in the average library. Using your "logic," you must believe in all of them, right?" I don't believe in God because the bible told me too...i believe in the bible because God told me too...
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 02:11 PM Lindsay said: "I don't believe in God because the bible told me too...i believe in the bible because God told me too..." Did somebody say something about "crazy?" 😊 Was it a burning bush or a talking sheep? (both of which are in the Bible) As I said, I knew two people who thought they were the Second Coming. God spoke to them, too. Now I understand your inability to begin your thinking about the universe without automatically assuming that there is a God: He told you not to. Yup, this certainly clairifies a few things for me.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 02:17 PM Lindsay said: "be one of us crazies for a week. its quite fun. youve got nothing too lose and much to gain. so tryyyyyyy it. pwease" Cute, but did you miss the part where I said I had 12 years of Catholic school? I've been there and yes, there IS a lot to lose, actually. Like independent thought, for example. Oh, and there's that money that they expect you to give them for the privelege of allowing the priests to have sex with your children. Can't forget that. Yes, I realize that that's Catholic-specific, but it IS, after all, the largest Christian denomination in America. (No, I wasn't molested by a priest, although I was hit by a few nuns, which is another issue.) I'm familiar with Christian dogma and I have no interest in it. Besides, belief isn't something I can turn on and off, like a light switch. And, no, I'm not going to pretend to believe in that nonsense for a day, a week, a month, or ever. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, as they say.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 02:26 PM Lindsay said: "1. no one can proof that God isnt real" sigh How many times do we have to go down this road? It isn't possible to prove the non-existance of God. As I've said more than once now, though, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that God DOES exist. It isn't possible for you to prove that my lovely moon-roos don't exist, either. I DEMAND that you believe in them! After all, what do you have to lose? You have NO idea the peace that belief in moon-roos brings to me. In fact, they have spoken directly to me and they said that Jesus is a fake. So, you're really missing out by not believing in them. As for your "point" that the fact that more people believe in Jesus than moon-roos means that Christianity is more likely to be true, uh, no, poor logic. I guess that would mean that when there was only Jesus and his 12 followers, that Christianity was unlikely to be true. I mean, there were religions with FAR more followers back then. At what point did Christianity become "true?" You know, I'm really not trying to be difficult, but a lot of believers really have to try to learn the rules of logic.
lindsay	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 03:14 PM lol cranky you always misunderstand me i must suck at talking. my point was that no one can prove that my God isnt real. i didnt say that the burden of proof wasnt mine, i was just saying that theres no proof that its terribly impossible for God to be real. thats it. period. nothing more. yes youve said that you went to that school for 12 years. big stinkin deal. theres a difference between trying to find God and listening to ppl talk about him. thats all that were asking. so what if who knows how long ago you were catholic. were talking about right now. we didnt say believe it. we said, look for God. if you dont find him then you dont find him. we can shut up. but if youre truly looking, and you dont find God, i mean sincerely giving God a chance, then youre not losing anything. its like testing a theory. i will seriously shut up and quit the debate if you search for God, like I said a real search, and dont find him. isnt that easy? you can get rid of all these crazy christians!! cmon its an offer you can hardly pass up. God doesnt command priest to molest children. the body of christ isnt perfect. our actions dont define our God, they define us. im talking about God, im not even talking about believing in the bible. i mean look for God. not religion, but God. hahaha so i dont have independent thought? because i believe in God I cant think for myself? ahh nooo noo dont go there cranky, ive had enough ppl tell me that i cant think for myself because im a kid. i dont need someone saying i cant for myself because I believe in God. christians debate over the bible, and things about life all the time. they even debate about whether or not the bible is true. so apperntly we dont all think the same. bleh thats retarded. my point wasnt that alot of ppl believe it so its true. my point was alot, i mean, alot of ppl have expiernced God. i just want to know how all of those ppl can be crazy? as for your moon-roos...moon-roos, im sry i love that. anyway. how many ppl believe in these moon-roos. is it only you cranky? so either everyone who has ever existed that has expiernced God is crazy, or one person is crazy..one person who doesnt really even believe in moon-roos. im sry but i cant debate you on it, its a suky metaphor and you dont really believe it so its not really debatable. woot lindsay gets to be a crazy. thats great. actually no, i could think about the beginning without a creator, but none of it leads to what we have now. and Ive expiernced God as ive said oh so many times before. that article that i put up about the beginning of the universe is something that i believe in. so far no one has shown me any holes in it, and i dont see any. so as I see it there must be an eternal someone, and I conclude that the enternal someone is my God. as ive said, im willing to go into that. but it seems that only carter has acknoweldged the article i put up. i believe it so either its time for you to tell me a way around it or to..well..idk lol
lindsay	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 03:16 PM http://everystudent.com/journeys/nothing.html once again there is the link. theres 4 articles of it. personally i think that the 3 article just kinda rambles..but oh well. and im sry if i dont make much sense today, or the last few days. my allergies are going crazy. and im really sick so i hope that interfere with my explanations. just tell me if i say something stupid lol
Raoul Duke Member	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 07:33 PM What I'd like to know is what happens to the other religions' followers? Do those who pray to Allah, Buddha, Zeus, what happens to them? I got sick when I read that in the beginning they were all the same. It was basically Jews and Roman Catholics, the Catholics split up into factions thus forming new religious sects such as Christianity, Baptist, etc. And another thing that's been eating at my brain, what the hell was up with killing off the Pagans?
lindsay	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 08:56 PM The only way to get to father is through Jesus Christ. (which is a scipture for those of you who didnt no...) that is pretty self- explanatory. in order to get to heaven people must accept Christ sacrifise. now there are occasions, especially when someone is a little kid, that they don't understand that. I believe that they still go to heaven. its people who coinsiously turn away from Jesus that don't get to go to heaven. that goes the same for all people, even the ones who claim to be christian but never really gave thei heart to christ. yeah thats what i pointed out before. alot of religions revovle around the God that I serve. most of them take a turn when it gets to Jesus and their take on the bible..my god has definetly been around. people have just changed his definition. my point before was that if someone rejects christ then he rejects his ticket to heaven in my belief
Chingon	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 09:25 PM I have to disagree with you, Duke. Catholics didn't really "split up into factions thus forming Christianity, Baptists, etc." 1. I have to point out that Catholics ARE Christians. 2. Members of the Catholic Church <i>dissassociated</i> themselves from it and created the other Protestant religions after time. The way you make it sound, the Protestants are a part of the Catholic Church. They aren't, but are rather a different sect of Christianity. 3. I'd also like to point out the pagan Romans attempted to "pacify" the percieved rebellion of Christianity via the Colliseum and crucifixion. <sarcasm>I mean, what was up with that! It really eats me on the inside that the pure and good Pagans could do such a thing!</sarcasm> 4. Pagans are still around, clearly they weren't "killed off", as you so eloquently put it. Also, since you seem to have not noticed, all major religions have caused murder. Perhaps your question should have been "Why do religious zealots kill others if they are supposedly following their creeds correctly?" Just a fun fact- Allah(God of Islam), Yaweh(God of Judaism), and the God of Christianity...is the same God.
lindsay	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 10:00 PM haha yeah that was mainly what i was thinking of when i was talking about different religions splitting off when it got to Jesus. ironic. well then i guess that a very very large portion of the world http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html basically I think its a safe estimate that 54%of the world follows a religion in which the God is in fact the same God as mine. as ive said before once we get to Jesus that is where most of the controversy is. everntually the God's ended up being different i think, but take it back to the beginning and they were the very very same. i find it interesting.
Carter S	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 10:28 PM Umm Raoul, By your not liking fallout boy and the Used, makes me like them even more. You probably have never heard of them. Maybe you should be exposed to something other than your moms lollabye songs. But all of that is irrelevant. good day to you maam.
lindsay	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 10:42 PM underoath is better
lindsay	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 10:43 PM ooooooh
Carter S	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 11:03 PM Cranky Media Guy, "First off, Carter, why do you assume that we non-believers HAVEN'T tried believing? I had 12 years of Catholic school and church as a boy. I am not a non-believer because I haven't had any religious training, obviously" I was trying to address people who have never tried believing. Though I did write it as if I were assuming that you non-believers haven't tried believing. MY BAD. Calm down bud. "Tell you what, why don't you try REALITY for a while?" For one thing dude, this IS my reality. Who are you to say what reality is, especially for someone else. IF YOU believe in the kangaroos, then, you know what, that is your reality. If your LDS than THAT'S YOUR REALITY.(I am not LDS). "Stop believing in all the silly stuff and rationalizations it takes to be involved in organized religion" For one thing calling people's beliefs silly was quite unnecessary. I don't think that your beliefs are silly. I just don't agree with them. But to go as far as saying that my belief in God is silly, that's just immature and rude. Another thing, I realized you ASSUMED I was in an organized religion. Good job, your wrong. I am not in an organized religion. I do however, consider myself a christian, but I have no church, I don't care to join any church. And I don't share the many beliefs that some people do. I have my own views on things. "For starters, how about the way that when something good happens, believers praise God but when something bad happens, they say that God isn't responsible. Talk about a no-lose game, huh?" I don't think that when a good thing happens that it must be God. If you were to read some of the entries in here you would know that, if that were true then we wouldn't have free will. And everything would be great. I don't think that at all. A no-lose game. To me that is not the case. To me the world is a place where all things are go. Anything can happen. Nothing preventing things from happening, such as weather. And there's nothing helping things to happen, such as winning the lottery. It happens because it happens. We have to learn from those events. Whether it is bad or good. I mean what have you learned when everything has gone right. Pretty much nothing. But good things happen an bad things happen. To me God is observing us. If he must step in, then he will. But I do not believe in that No-lose game idea.
Carter S	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 11:31 PM Cranky media Guy, I too have tried not to believe in God. It just didn't work for me. See Again, I realized that YOU assumed that I have never tried being a non-believer. You are very hypocritical. Your being a Catholic 12 years ago, is not helping your arguement. Like lindsay said. You have to find him for yourself. Not through others, but from yourself.
Carter S	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 11:34 PM Lindsay, No way!!! It is all about those two bands and other ones which are too many to list. But I have never heard underoath. at least I don't think I have. Sublime is awesome too. 311, in their younger days. oh well. I commend you on your argements.
Carter S	Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 \| 11:38 PM Cranky Media Guy, Wow, look at this!! "If you have and still don't believe then you can say that you have had faith, but it didn't work for you. But at least you tried it." This was on page 22. It looks like I wasn't assuming after all. How about that!!!
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 12:43 AM OK, I just wrote this. From this point on, I will only respond to those who make an argument in favor of the existance of God which does not violate these rules (I reserve the right to add to the list if I think of more rules). 1.If you are asserting the existence of God, the burden of proof is on you. No one is required to prove the NON-existance of God. 2.The sincerity of your belief in God is NOT proof of the existence of God. 3.The fact that what you believe is written in a book or books is NOT proof of the existence of God. 4.The fact that your beliefs have been around a long time is NOT proof of the existence of God. 5.The number of people who agree with your beliefs is NOT proof of the existence of God. 6.The fact that you
Scott	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 08:58 AM I had written earlier the following but no one responded: "You say that the earth was created by the "Big Bang" Prove it! Prove it without having to hand pick the 300 or so left amino acids. We'll probably be able to prove that God exists around the time that scientist prove that the world started with a bang and that the 10 to the 52 power chance that all the Amino Acids that were needed to begin life were present and perfectly fused together to start life."
Scott	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 08:58 AM This is starting to sound like were "beating a dead horse". I would agree that some passages sound far fetched. But... I believe in God and the Bible. Simple as that. I think it is to bad that Cranky had a bad experience with Catholic school. I think that "Believers" do things that are not Christ like and it makes non believers say "I don't want any part of that". Can you blame 'em? Cranky... sounds like you are content with life as you understand it. I'm glad. I am happy too.
Carter S	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 11:59 AM Cranky Media Guy, "OK, I just wrote this. From this point on, I will only respond to those who make an argument in favor of the existance of God which does not violate these rules (I reserve the right to add to the list if I think of more rules)." Well if this is the case it seems like your going to be writing to your self. And for the reserving the right to add more. That was just pointless. No one is going to stop you. And no one cares. "2.The sincerity of your belief in God is NOT proof of the existence of God" NO SHIT!! "3.The fact that what you believe is written in a book or books is NOT proof of the existence of God" NO SHIT!! 4-9 ...... Here it comes...NO SHIT!!! All of those are the things why people some people believe. It is not necessarily proof. Hey bud your missing the big picture. Us beleivers, are simply saying that we believe. That does not mean however that just because we believe what we believe means that it's evidence. Of course No One has scientific evidence. It's in our hearts. We trust our hearts more than YOUR logic. If you think about it, THAT is proof for us. It may not be to you, but it's good enough for us. "8.The fact that you, a believer, have had some good fortune is NOT proof of the existence of God." "9.The fact that a non-believer you know or have heard of has had some bad fortune is NOT proof of the existence of God." and 10-15 You see, again, you are assuming that all beleivers think that. 10.The
carter	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 12:02 PM I didn't mean to put Scott's comment down as a question. I meant PERFECT COMMENT!!! Or something
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 02:39 PM Carter S said: "Just answer this one. How do you know that he doesn't exist? What are your theories besides the fact that there is no evidence?" I refer you to Number One on my list.
lindsay	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 03:02 PM ugh im sry but this is quite frusterating...how the freakin heck can we debate you if you dont respond to certain things???? ive put that link up twice and people have yet to acknoweldge it. cranky no one is ever going to have proof that god exists. as ive said, you must find your own proof and that would be personal expiernce or on occasion miracles. but since were just cranky christians i no that those dont count. there is no way for us to prove that. just like i believe that there is no way to prove that the big bang theory must have happened. maybe you can find evidense for it, but its a theory, not a fact. i guess it goes both ways. You just assume that God doesnt exist. just because we cant prove beyond a shadow of doubt that he does, doesnt mean it goes down as a fact until proven otherwise. maybe in personal opinions it can. but remember, assuming that there is no God (because of lack of factual evidense) wouldnt be proper. and id appreciate it if youd not act condiscendingly towards chirstians, or othe rreligions. its not a silly belief. like carter said, i don't agree with you, but i dont find our beliefs silly. im tired of being put down. 10.The
lindsay	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 03:03 PM hah i sooo meant to put crazy christians..idk how it ended up the other way
lindsay	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 03:16 PM cranky- i disagree with a few of your rules. some of those things are not meant to be solid proof but something to conisider. too think about. what kind of proof will you accept? us creating a time machine and traveling back to the beginning of time to witness the creation? thats the only way that we could prove it to think that humans are wise enough to prove such things is quite arrogant. im not saying that we must be right because so many people have believed. im saying that when millions and millions of people have the same kind of experince and each clame it came from the same thing, each expierncing it many times, it cannot just be thrown aside. it has to be thought about. my question is, can all of those people really be crazy? if so then that is frigthening and medical experts need to be working quickly find some sort of solution. this isnt one or two crazy ppl in front of the white house claiming to be the 2 comming, this is a very large amount of ppl who swear that they have expiernced God. im not asking you to believe it. im asking you to think about it. surely you are not that narrow minded. truth is the universe isnt limited to your frame of mind and human logic. something to conisder. maybe we dont have the world figured out. 🐛 if youre ever going to understand anything then you have to strech your mind beyond the limits its comfortable in. you must conisder everything. I don't mean believe everything. but i mean consider everything and think of how it could fit into the bigger picture. so respond to everything and not just one thing if you are going to respond. when someone makes a point and you disagree, tell us why. when someone makes a point that stumps you, dont just ignore it. maybe there is a reason that it stumps you. or even if their point is stupid, let them know. its very very simple. if i have to go by rules then i think that you should as well lol i think that most of that was adressed to everyone, not just cranky
lindsay	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 03:18 PM http://everystudent.com/journeys/nothing.html there im even putting it in another time. i believe this, i find it logical. if you dont tell me why. if you do great let someone no. if it stumps you (which i find hard to believe you guys are never stumped, or never admit it) then tell us plz. either way, respond. and a real response. not one saying that its stupid. thanks a bunches
lindsay	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 03:19 PM remember that there are 4 articles
lindsay	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 03:24 PM "No way!!! It is all about those two bands and other ones which are too many to list. But I have never heard underoath. at least I don't think I have. Sublime is awesome too. 311, in their younger days. oh well. I commend you on your argements." you too. and nuh uh underoath definetly beats em.as i lay dying is good too. im really falling for the beautiful mistake though lol. go to http://www.purevolume.com and theyll have alot of the bands that i mentioned on there. definetly worth it.
Carter S	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 07:34 PM Lindsay, I think that those articles make perfect sense. Cranky does just chose one thing to pick a part, and avoids others. I will definitley have to look that up. North Star, and Rufio. The beatles j/k, although there not bad. In some cases. they kind of give me a headache. Cranky, how about you give us something that we can go by. What are your theories besides the fact that there is no evidence? Just consider some theories. You can answer that one can't you? Let's just say that you believe, can you give us something that you may think is evidence? Like Scott said..."Prove that the universe started with the big bang." PROVE IT! Look, that's not proving a negative.
Carter S	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 07:59 PM Lindsay, those bands are really good. But I couldn't get away from the used and fall out boy.
lindsay	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 10:12 PM I heart those bands like crazy. fall out boy and the used are good, but im in love with these. i just got back from one of the greatest concerts with aura lee, red lettered ransom, lori ann and slingshot 57. now that is a beautiful line up. lol in the words of lorin rlr's just "a bunch of cute boys in girl pants." hah i love those kids. theyve got a real heart for god. good friends too. if you ever get the chance to hear them, then you should definelty take it.arua lee too. right now its just my friend lorin as a solo acoustic project but theyre turning it into an indie side project. yeah off subject but this forum needed to be lightened up a little. too too serious lol. music makes everything better 😊 and of course those delightful ppl in the bands i mentioned
lindsay	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 10:20 PM this forum could go on forever. we can debate until were blue in the face, but that will never change the fact that there is no satisfactory evidense that we can give them. which i might add doesnt make us wrong. many things in life that are true cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I feel like now is the time to really drop it. so ima go most likely. maybe stop by and make a few points or casual conversation. ive been messing around on here the last few pages lol I already said that i was leaving. but now i feel like i should. cranky, I hope that you can stay open minded. Good luck bud. ive enjoyed debating with you, its taught me alot. lol thanks for putting up with me carter, it was nice having someone on my side here. it used to be just lonely old lindsay debating a bunch of smart ppl. that was over the summer though. its nice to have someone agree sometimes. you should try and find a nice church. it really is a blessing. but if there arent any good ones, then ur better off having church alone. lol. i got lucky, ive been blessed with a wonderful church, one that really lives for God. i hope that you can find the same good luck with the moon-roos cranky 😉
Carter S	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 11:39 PM Lindsay, It has been a pleasure. I as well will Secede, from this forum. I might make an occasional comment or two, but I see that everyeone is content with their beliefs. I hope that everyone will have a great life. Cranky Media Guy, I hope that you will always be a strong debater, and that your website is a great success.(If that is yours. I don't know) but if it is, good luck. It was nice to know your views. It was great to argue with someone with intellect. And sorry if things got too heated, but it's a debate and it's bound to happen. I, might still be on the sylvia forum, but might secede from that as well. I have gone to church a few times. It doesn't work too well for me. So I just pray when I feel like I need it. I worship God every day. It is great. Just remember, there is no right religion everyone. They are religious views of other humans and should be respected. (unless of course their religion is based on killing and all those bad things, obviously)(which is most likely a cult) Everyone, STAY open minded. Carter S.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 \| 11:56 PM Hey, Carter, you take care OK? It's been fun arguing with you.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 \| 12:05 AM Carter S said: "What are your theories besides the fact that there is no evidence? Just consider some theories. You can answer that one can't you? Let's just say that you believe, can you give us something that you may think is evidence?" My answer is that I don't know how the universe started and I don't think ANYONE knows. The fact that there may not be a good answer to that question at the moment is also not proof of the existance of God. I object to people who claim to know what I believe is yet to be determined. If you say you know, then the burden of PROOF is on you. It simply isn't enough to say you believe. All you have to do to see the truth of that is to substitute any other superstition in place of God. "I believe that if I step on a crack, I break my mother's back. I believe it and that settles it." Sounds absurd, doesn't it? Why? Because simple belief without PROOF is recognized by virtually everyone to be meaningless--unless you're talking about God. Then, suddenly, belief is all you need for some reason and those who say "prove it" are heathens and to be pitied.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 \| 12:13 AM Lindsay, all that article says is that it's impossible for humans to think that something could come out of nothing. OK, that's probably true. That still leaves you with the problem of where God supposedly came from.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 \| 12:17 AM Lindsay said: "to think that humans are wise enough to prove such things is quite arrogant. " I agree. That's one BIG reason I object when people claim to "know" that there is a God and that He created the universe. I refer you to Rule Number One: If you are asserting the existence of God, the burden of proof is on you. No one is required to prove the NON-existance of God. Also Rule Number Two: The sincerity of your belief in God is NOT proof of the existence of God.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 \| 12:23 AM Lindsay said: "cranky no one is ever going to have proof that god exists." BINGO! Here's the essential point: In the absence of ANY proof whatsoever, why should I, or anyone else, just accept the existance of God? If you substitute any other extremely unlikely event or being for "God" in that sentence, you'll see how silly it is to expect to accept its existance without the slightest bit of proof. If you can't prove it, why SHOULD I accept it? YOU'RE the one who has now said it will probably never be proven. I therefore have NO reason to believe in God. Please don't tell me about Heaven and all that crap. If there's no evidence for the existance of God, there's no evidence for the existance of any of that other nonsense. I believe my (currently) 16 Rules cover this nicely.
Carter S	Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 \| 12:31 AM Cranky Media Guy, Ok, Let's just say this. I know there is absolutley no proof of God. But, to the many of believers, that doesn't matter to them because their beliefs are good enough for them, and although it may not be actual proof, it is to them. I don't think that because of someones beliefs that it automatically means it's is proof. But I like to look at their theories and try to see their stand on it. Although many people do think that because the bible said it, it has to be true. But all that matters is that it's true to them. I guess we will never actually know until we die. We will either see a white light and then see God, or just cease to exist. To me that is hard to do, cease to exist. I can't imagine dying and then not ever thinking again. or having thoughts. But that of course is not proof. But here is my stand on it. 1.I believe in God, despite the evidence against him. 2.although it is not proof, the existence of earth and it's complexity is my own proof to myself. 3.How do we know that there isn't any evidence? Maybe it is all around us. In our everyday english, math, science. 4. Maybe within the theories of Math and science there is a way to prove Gods existence. Maybe. 5.God is my reality, and many other peoples reality. 6.Perhaps God doesn't want any proof, but just faith alone, and that he wants people to debate his cause, until our eyes hurt( I am really tired) All of that isn't proof but my stand on things. Again I like what Lindsay's website had to say about everything. Did you know I actually convinced someone that life after death is real. I told him to think about dying and then picture himself never ever thinking or having a thought again. He's all Oh wow maybe there is life after death. I was quite disappointed in him, since he did not put up a struggle. and that it was that easy. I know that is not evidence either.
Carter S	Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 \| 12:41 AM The burden of proof is on us, so I guess I will have to live with that burden all my life. And that's ok with me. Those reasons aren't good enough for you. Thus, you have no reason to believe them. Those reasons are yours to disagree with. But to others, those reasons are something that made them believe, and they are good enough to prove the existence of God.(For them). I do commend you on your 16 rules though. They really put up a fight. Maybe I should try to defeat it some how. I don't know I am tired.
Carter S	Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 \| 12:44 AM Cranky Media Guy, "Hey, Carter, you take care OK? It's been fun arguing with you" Hey you too man. I hope in the long run we can have other arguements, or maybe even agree with each other some day! Take Care too. Carter S
Bobensero	Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 \| 07:08 AM fuck you therefore god exists.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 \| 07:43 AM Carter S said: "I believe in God, despite the evidence against him." That violates my Rule Number Two: "The sincerity of your belief in God is NOT proof of the existence of God." NEXT!
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 \| 07:44 AM Bobensero said: "fuck you therefore god exists." Finally, an argument for the existance of God that doesn't violate one of my sixteen rules!
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