MOH Forum: A Postal-Mail Chain Letter?

A Postal-Mail Chain Letter?

Posted By:
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Nov 14, 2004

I received this chain letter in my mailbox:

Dear Friend,
Greetings: I am a retired attorney. A few years ago a man came to me with a letter. He asked me to verify the fact that this was legal to do. I told him I would review it and get back to him. When I first red the letter my client brought me, I thought it was some "off-the-wall" idea to make money. A week and a half later we met in my office to discuss the issue. I told him the letter he originally brought me was not 100% legal. My client then asked me to later it to make it perfectly legal. I asked him to make one small change in the letter.

***
It goes on for another 2 pages about how if you send $1 to the 6 names on the list & you will make $800,000.00 in just 3 months. You pay for a list of names to send letters to. I KNOW this is a scam. I just can't figure out how I got it. It came to me at my married name (junk-mail tends to come to my maiden name), & it came to my actual house address. (My driver's license lists my PO Box & if you look me up at the DMV, the physical address is actually my prior residence...haven't had time to change it yet.) The phone & electric aren't registered in my name, they're registered to my husband. (There's not a water bill, we have a well.)

What I wanna know is: How did this come to me, with my correct name at my current physical address??? The 'person' who sent the letter is: Mr. Louis Jordan/1234 Shakespeare Avenue/Apt # 2E/Bronx, NY 10452

Also, a co-worker recently had someone slip this same letter under his door at his apartment building...Anyone hear anything about this??

Category: Scams; Replies: 1759

Comments

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Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 \| 03:52 AM Damn you, Blister, you dream stealer! If it wasn't for people like you telling people the FACTS about Federal prosecution of chain letter operators, no one would GET prosecuted. Seriously, though, thanks for finding that information. I've looked for it in the past and couldn't come up with it. (You do realize that posting that information will not stop people from insisting that some vague nonsense in THEIR chain letter totally makes it legal AND practical, right?)
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 \| 03:59 AM Anyone STILL unconvinced that the government says that chain letters don't work and are illegal should drop everything and go to ftc.gov. Use "chain letter" as your search term. The link at the top should answer all your questions.
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 \| 04:06 AM And since it's been a while since this has been posted here, this is what the U.S. Postal Inspectors say about chain letters: "The main thing to remember is that a chain letter is simply a bad investment. You certainly won't get rich. You will receive little or no money. The few dollars you may get will probably not be as much as you spend making and mailing copies of the chain letter. "Chain letters don't work because the promise that all participants in a chain letter will be winners is mathematically impossible. Also, many people participate, but do not send money to the person at the top of the list. Some others create a chain letter that lists their name numerous times--in various forms with different addressee. So, in reality, all the money in a chain is going to one person. "Do not be fooled if the chain letter is used to sell inexpensive reports on credit, mail order sales, mailing lists, or other topics. The primary purpose is to take your money, not to sell information. 'Selling' a product does not ensure legality. Be doubly suspicious if there's a claim that the U.S. Postal Service or U.S. Postal Inspection Service has declared the letter legal. This is said only to mislead you. Neither the Postal Service nor Postal Inspectors give prior approval to any chain letter." Any questions?
dyvion77 Member	Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 \| 07:57 PM crankey media guy , can you please shut the f*** up please
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 \| 01:36 AM dyvion77 said: "crankey media guy , can you please shut the f*** up please" Gee, when you put it like that...NO! At the risk of stating the incredibly obvious, if you have a problem with the ACCURATE information I'm spreading, DON'T READ IT.
Math Man	Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 \| 08:15 PM Well is it illegal or not. That is up for interpretation. Laws are made by man and governed by man. Laws are also amened many times. If a majority of people believe that it is in fact legal. Than it is so. If engage in an act that you believe to the best of you knowledge to be legal. Then turns out to be in fact illegal. Your are not guilty till proven innocent. Your still innocent till proven guilty. You will find that the courts have there hand full with murders and violence that you'll never get that far for sending a chain letter. The post office would most likely turn the the other way. They are getting their share of the investment. The IRS is fine as long as they get their sum. The courts are not willing to spend their budget on 800,000 potential court cases. Ya Cranky your losing out big time. My be you have a military back ground, that would answer your firm
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 \| 11:40 PM Math Man said: Thank of when the Internet came out, How many law changes had to be reinterpreted or even changed. Name some, Math Man. And then check and see if things became legal BEFORE the law was changed.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 \| 12:43 AM Math Man in "Geirgia" said: "If a majority of people believe that it is in fact legal. Than it is so. If engage in an act that you believe to the best of you knowledge to be legal. Then turns out to be in fact illegal." Absolute nonsense. You have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't you come back after you've learned how to spell the name of the state you live in?
Math man	Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 \| 01:58 PM Cranky Media Guy said. well I'm glad that the only thing you found wrong with my opinion was a typo. With the statement "If a majority of people believe that it is in fact legal. Than it is so. If engage in an act that you believe to the best of you knowledge to be legal. Then turns out to be in fact illegal. Your are not guilty till proven innocent. Your still innocent till proven guilty.
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 \| 04:06 PM Math Man (I presume quoted) said: Illegal acts that are civil violations include driving too fast, failure to register a business, etc. From wikipedia: (admittedly not the best source of correct information...) In the United States, chain letters that request money or other items of value and promise a substantial return to the participants is considered a form of gambling and, therefore, illegal. From the FTC website: (probably a reliable source, wouldn't you think?) # Chain letters that involve money or valuable items and promise big returns are illegal. If you start one or send one on, you are breaking the law. # Chances are you will receive little or no money back on your "investment." Despite the claims, a chain letter will never make you rich. # Some chain letters try to win your confidence by claiming that they're legal, and even that they're endorsed by the government. Nothing is further from the truth. The U.S. Postal Inspector's site: (since they law is made by them in this case, you'd expect that they know what it is...) There's at least one problem with chain letters. They're illegal if they request money or other items of value and promise a substantial return to the participants. Chain letters are a form of gambling, and sending them through the mail (or delivering them in person or by computer, but mailing money to participate) violates Title 18, United States Code, Section 1302, the Postal Lottery Statute. (Chain letters that ask for items of minor value, like picture postcards or recipes, may be mailed, since such items are not things of value within the meaning of the law.)
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 \| 06:19 PM Math Man (who still can't spell his home state's name) said: "well I'm glad that the only thing you found wrong with my opinion was a typo." Uh, no. What I said was, "Absolute nonsense. You have no idea what you're talking about." Clearly, I was referring to your "logic," not your misspelling of "Georgia." Math man also said: "Only chain letters that are asking for some thing that has taxable value and is promising a larger return on your investment is considered illegal." Yes, if you'd bothered to read more of this thread, you would have seen that that's been explained. For the sake of clarity, we are not talking about chain letters that swap recipes, say. We're talking about the ones we've all seen that promise that you can make money by mailing a few dollars to other people. There is simply NO argument you can make that those are LEGAL (in America and probably other countries as well) or even WORK as claimed. As far as your "reasoning" that you aren't committing a crime until you're caught, uh, no. You ARE committing a crime, you just haven't been ajudicated yet. If I break into your house and steal your TV, I HAVE committed a crime, even if the police haven't caught me yet.
math man	Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 \| 08:10 PM Cranky, says. As far as your "reasoning" that you aren't committing a crime until you're caught, uh, no. You ARE committing a crime, you just haven't been ajudicated yet. If I break into your house and steal your TV, I HAVE committed a crime, even if the police haven't caught me yet. You are not even close to the truth. That is a fullish statement. It is not up to the police nor the courts to determine if it is a crime. But to the Individual that claims owner ship of the displaced property. But a immoral act never the less. If you break in to my house and steal my TV, And I choose for what ever reason not to report it. Witch happens more often then you think. A crime was not committed. An immoral domestic act accrued. The legal system was not involved. There are many ways to look at things. Say you break in to my home with the intend to steal. You break you leg. And you file your complaint with the legal system first. You are more likely to win the case then the owners of the house. Why. Cranky do you have the answer? Any way, you didn't commit a crime if the legal system does not commit to a judgment. Thats you legal system, Cranky. Got the love it. As you are working so hard to prevent ,as you say crimes your legal system is struggling to enforce and convict. Its a Struggle never the less. The fact is the world need balance. That would make 50% Criminals and 50% interpretors. You Cranky are breaking the Law as we Speak. Are you or are you given legal advise. I took my copy of this letter that I received to the USPS on Friday. I requested a response. My wife answered the phone call. She said the USPS lady said that my letter is ready for pickup unless I am willing to pro sue. What the Hell. What are they doing nothing unless I do. Cranky I'm trying to do the right thing but unless I pro sue this to the fullest nothing will happen. Show me were theres a crime committed. Other than a immoral act. If you google Geirgia you will see 7,290 results. man I thought I was Spelling it right. The o and the i are so close together, maybe I can try to move my finger over to the right. What do you thanks Cranky????? I really would like your answer on this.
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 \| 08:30 PM Why do I feel like I'm typing in invisible ink?
The Darn Blister	Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 \| 10:01 PM Invisible ink? That's weird... I have no trouble reading your posts, hcmomof4.
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 \| 10:06 PM Then maybe Math Man is just ignoring my posts?
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 \| 12:50 AM Math Man (Still in misspelled "Geirgia") said: "I took my copy of this letter that I received to the USPS on Friday. I requested a response. My wife answered the phone call. She said the USPS lady said that my letter is ready for pickup unless I am willing to pro sue." I have NO idea what you were trying to say there. What does "pro sue" mean?
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 \| 12:58 AM Math Man, you remind me of some black prisoners I read about the other day who have adopted the bizarre legal reasoning of white supremacists that says that if you claim that your "real" name is somehow different from what the government typed on your indictment, you can get yourself out of what you've been charged with. As hcmomof4 showed you, chain letters ARE illegal. Just look a few posts up and you'll see the exact quotations. As was explained by someone else here recently, people HAVE been charged and convicted of operating chain letters. Federal prosecutors aren't inclined to let people off based on silly word games. By "pro sue" did you mean "pro se," meaning that you intend to represent yourself if you get in trouble for involvement in chain letter activities? Good luck with that. Let us know what prison you're in.
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 \| 07:15 AM I think that "pro sue" equals "prosecute".
math man	Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 \| 06:30 PM I never once stated that chin letters are legal. you have nothing to prove to me. Help me with the spelling of Ge org ia.. please. i need it so much. I am glad we proved that chain letters are illegal. what ever that means to any one.
math man	Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 \| 06:42 PM lets try replaceing pro sue with pursue Cranky Money says, Federal prosecutors aren't inclined to let people off based on silly word games. They do ever day to save tax payers money and a fixed budget. I promise you that a simple chain letter is at the bottom of their agenda. You are fulling your self if you think the court system is prosecuting ever case, and even if to the fullest extent of the law. Your in the dark. Hey heres a question Why are they considered illegal?
math man	Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 \| 06:50 PM hcmomof4 you are simple quoting web sites that every one here I thought has already read. Sorry, for the over looking. The federal courts fail to secure judgments on any chain letter case to date. Find one that has a judgment of guilty. I haven't yet.
math man	Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 \| 07:25 PM Cranky Says. people HAVE been charged and convicted of operating chain letters. Federal prosecutors aren't inclined to let people off based on silly word games. here are the current cases http://www.ftc.gov/os/2002/02/
The Darn Blister	Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 \| 12:48 AM Funny... there as a list of them on page 40 of this very thread, math man. Let me reiterate... http://www.silcom.com/~barnowl/chain-letter/bibliography.htm and read the entries from 1935. http://www.usps.com/judicial/1982deci/14-54.htm http://www.usps.com/judicial/1986deci/24-131d.htm http://www.usps.com/judicial/1988deci/29-117d.htm http://www.usps.com/judicial/1987deci/26-163.htm http://www.ftc.gov/os/2002/02/boivinjmnt.pdf Plus there are all the state cases... did you know that Oregon can hit you for $25,000 per mailing, plus legal fees for a chain letter?
The Darn Blister	Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 \| 12:51 AM Math man said: They do ever day to save tax payers money and a fixed budget. I promise you that a simple chain letter is at the bottom of their agenda. You are fulling your self if you think the court system is prosecuting ever case, and even if to the fullest extent of the law. Your in the dark. Hey heres a question Why are they considered illegal? One reason they are illegal (with a potential of 30 years in prison and a million dollars in fines) is because in 1935 the first known money chain letter almost destroyed the state of Colorado. They are a weapon of mass economic destruction.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 \| 12:52 AM Math Man said: "Hey heres a question Why are they considered illegal?" Gee, if only that question had been answered in this very thread about a dozen times already. Oh, that's right, IT HAS BEEN. I'll give you the Short Attention Span version: they're illegal because they make claims which CANNOT be realized. That help you?
math man	Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 \| 05:10 PM Why are people still sending them? What is this tread about any way?
The Darn Blister	Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 \| 11:52 PM Because whenever the economy goes into a downturn, foolish, greedy people are more likely to fall for the lies that scammers spin. Even when the economy is doing well, though, the scams continue these days. Makes me really wonder about whose image humanity was actually made in.
kristibluesky Member	Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 \| 09:50 PM this was posted in 2004. LOL I got this letter last week. I decided to do it. If it's a hoax then oh well but for three weeks I get to dream. My husband who has a BA in economics says if people really participate then it will work to some degree {probably not the degree mentioned in letter} I will keep you posted. I got the same exact letter. LOL They get your name from a labels company. THe addresses are real. I yellow paged them and I really sent 6 random people one dollar. That felt great if nothing else turns up I feel good about that. Please don't lecture me on legalities and what not. Obviously if I really got that much money in the mail I would hire an attorney myself.
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 \| 10:01 PM Please don't lecture me on the legalities of scams and fraud. If I can make enough money doing it, I'll just get myself an attorney and make him rich.
kristibluesky Member	Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 \| 10:08 PM hcmomof4 in So Cal I am also a native Ca and mother of four. If you received and participated in this letter let me know how it works out for you. I did but its too early to tell. As I mentioned above I sent out 6 random dollars. My husband after doing research said don't do them online pay pal accounts are not safe and someone can manipulate the pyramid. It's not illegal as you never ask anyone for anything of value but obviously hire an attorney and pay your taxes on it. I will keep you posted as well. When did you send your out. I have a friend who sent hers out two weeks ago and I sent mine out last week. It takes about three weeks and possible longer in the summer. I'm sure we will get something as we sent something to someone but not the amount they are talking about. Anything too good to be true usually is right?
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 \| 10:13 PM Kristibluesky, I was married to a mail carrier. If I had received this letter, he would have told me that it was mail fraud, and not to continue it. And then there is the sheer math aspect of it. No disrespect to your husband, but it can't work, mathematically.
kristibluesky Member	Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 \| 10:24 PM Oh bummer I was hoping someone who had participated in this actually stayed to report the outcome but it looks like lots of people are scared off by cranky people. I refused to participate in one similar years ago which involved friends and family. My neighbors received 5,000 then like 3,000 before it fizzled out. I think I did participate at the time because it was not the same and more like gambling. I dont' participate in lotteries and such. I had to really look this one over and to make sure it did not compromise Christian values. I also asked a mail carrier {friend] and got the response you can not ask for anything of value but advertisement request to be added to mailing list is always legal. Again if this really worked I would have to hire an attorney and pay taxes. What I am really interested in instead of the legal dynamics is has anyone stayed here long enough to report any success?
kristibluesky Member	Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 \| 11:39 PM I am just going to post my story. I am not cruel so please don't be cruel to me. My husband lost his job.{WAMU has outsourced all their call centers to outside country's. As well as most banks. A family member received this letter and sent out 300 for themselves and 200 for us as a gift to cheer us up. They bought the mailing labels from opportunity seekers.com. They arrive in 3-4 days. I mailed out the six dollars. I looked up the addresses and they were real addresses but I couldn't find phone numbers listed for free. Several had cell phones I would have to pay a fee to get. So I said please add me to your mailing list and please email me if this works for you. After thinking about this they probably won't email me as if this did work who would admit to it in writing? I have seen on here that it takes 3-4 weeks to tell if it is going to work. This is day 10 for us- Nothing so far. If I find this site again I will post updates.
The Darn Blister	Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 \| 01:52 AM Kristibluesky, read these links. Some are websites where people tried such letters and reported their results, the others are some of the nightmares people have gotten themselves into through such letters. http://oppseek.wordpress.com/category/the-letter-report/ http://www.mmfhoh.org/index.php/2006/10/06/unconditional_surrender http://www.theledger.com/article/20080517/COLUMNISTS/154640642/1092/news36&title=Chain_Letters_Bad_News_In_Any_Form http://karenliddell.etee2k.net/ http://www.lunenburg.org/wade/articles/2004/11/10/chain-gang/ http://demo.capris.com/Makemoremoney/investigate.cfm And a few sites that explain the lies in ways no fist to the face possibly could pound into someone. http://www.pacifier.com/~stopspam/usenet/mmf/mmf_variants.html http://www.savingadvice.com/blog/2007/10/18/101827_another-chain-letter-why-this-one-wont-work-either.html http://www.rickconner.net/spamweb/chainletteranalysis.html
tay tay	Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 \| 10:29 PM I got this letter one week ago. Today I read it out of desperation, and I was actually considering to try it. I'm very glad to have found this site. It totally changed my perspective.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 \| 01:01 AM Glad we could help you, Tay Tay.
kristibluesky Member	Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 \| 08:35 PM day 12 nothing. Thank you for the websites. It sounds like the opportunity seekers is the only one who stands to gain from this. They are listed with the BBB so I wonder if they generate these letters to market their label company?
kristibluesky Member	Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 \| 08:36 PM I wonder if Tay Tay in Las Vegas got mine or my sister law's?
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 \| 11:40 PM Being listed with the BBB is not an endorsement of the business. Businesses pay to be listed, and consumers can check against the list for complaints about the business.
tryingtoearn$$$	Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 \| 10:19 PM I'm going on 4 weeks. I have received 1 dollar.
Very lucky girl	Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 \| 08:44 PM Well after reviewing everyones entries, I would just like you all to know this is not a pyramid scam, and this letter does not say anywhere that you are not going to have to pay taxes, it simply states that you must save money from the money that you received in order to pay your taxes. This is illegal by being a chain letter though. Fortunately, I was skeptical and I thought like a criminal for a moment and asked myself, "What would I do in order to make money and really put a scam on people?". I would indeed make up phony names on the list and have all of those phony addresses forwarded to a P.O. Box and on the list of companies to get your labels from, I would only list my companies, so that in the long run I would be the only one making the big bucks. BUT, this is why I contacted a different mailing list company that I found on the Internet and it only cost me $15 for the list. Another point, I had a return address on my letter, and the guys name was number 6 on the list, another victim? I don't know, but just like it was pointed out every name on the list eventually gets knocked off, and then how will the scammer continue to get their riches? From the label companies? Not on the letters I sent out, I changed the mailing list companies to ones that I truly trust for my own business. I mailed only 100 letters out 1 month ago and I am reaping the rewards. If you would like to take the chance like I did, then do it! I have already received over $1000 bucks, yep, I took a chance and got some pocket change. However, I did advertise my company in the process, that was a plus! Try it, it won't hurt!
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 \| 12:57 AM Very lucky girl said: "Well after reviewing everyones entries, I would just like you all to know this is not a pyramid scam, and this letter does not say anywhere that you are not going to have to pay taxes, it simply states that you must save money from the money that you received in order to pay your taxes." A chain letter operates on the same principles as a pyramid scheme; they just use the mail to accomplish the same ends. "BUT, this is why I contacted a different mailing list company that I found on the Internet and it only cost me $15 for the list. Another point, I had a return address on my letter, and the guys name was number 6 on the list, another victim? I don't know, but just like it was pointed out every name on the list eventually gets knocked off, and then how will the scammer continue to get their riches?" Although you claim you read the postings on this thread, you've managed to completely miss the point. Chain letters DO NOT and CANNOT work as claimed. The math simply CANNOT work. You cannot divide up a finite amount of money so that everyone comes out with more than they put in (assuming no investment, interest, etc.) It doesn't matter how many letters you send out or whose names are on them. 2 + 2 cannot be made to equal more than four, no matter how you try.
One plus One is irrelevant	Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 \| 06:08 PM Mr Cranky, What you did not consider is that this is not the same principle of adding up for a total. This is a matter of 'keeping it moving along'. It is about a flow of money being distributed to those who are willing to participate. Nobody is being 'taken' especially if you break even. No different than putting money out on other business, and it is a business plan, with sales involved. The fact that there is always claims of it being illegal but there are never any lawsuits or cases to prove it is legal proves there is a downside. You won't have people joining in because of it. And technically it is a pyramid structure of sorts, like the 'airplane' schemes that were so popular in the 80's. They would have the top person bumped off after it was completed and it would split in two. It doesnt keep one person on top, heck that is the CORPORATE structure in America today and that is the one that should be illegal. Legally, there is no law against giving money. I have known accountants and lawyers who have participated in these 'schemes' with no worries that they are 'illegal'. Because they aren't. But there is a risk. The letter states that you might get 7.5 percent return, or more. This is the variable. You can't determine what the percentage will be for any group of 200 being solicited. What made many of the 'pyramid schemes' illegal was that it was not being reported as income and was a lost source of revenue for the government. So of course it will be stopped, in short, the money flowing in the hands of those who didn't have any documentation of it as income or charitable status was the problem. But this is NOT a one plus one situation, any more than if you decide to become a salesman is. You put out your information, which is acted on or tossed out. Technically you can do this legally because you are selling information. Who isn't these days? So I disagree completely with your assessment of 'it doesn't add up'. Because it isn't that kind of math problem. It is a flow chart, and as long as part of it flows it can work, for those who took the chance and participated, until it dwindles to nothing for them. Break even isn't so bad. People loose more than this on the lottery or gambling in casinos LEGALLY. So all of those arguments are just reactive and hypocritical.
The Darn Blister	Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 \| 01:45 AM Apparently "very lucky girl" forgot to learn how to read. Ms. Girl, you just connected your company to a 3rd degree felony by mail fraud. Try looking in the earlier pages (say, page 47?) of this thread and reading the court cases linked to. There are laws banning the mailing of certain materials. Among them are lottery materials. Chain letters are an illegal, private lottery, and if you affect a financial institution with one it can really, really hurt in court. Plus each and every one of the 50 states has their own laws against chain letters. Also, One plus One, the revenue angle for the government doesn't apply. Pyramid schemes, if not stopped, can literally destroy a country. See http://www.interleaves.org/~rteeter/pyramid.html for a link to a CNN report from back when Albania collapsed and went into civil war over such schemes. Also see the matter of the Isle of Wight at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1298197.stm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/inside_money/1470616.stm , and then go look up "Gambling Act 2005", the law which arose from that event which made merely recruiting people into a money-making chain a crime ("chain gifting" is the offical name of the crime).
Kara	Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 \| 04:48 PM I have been receiving this letter a lot lately and always throw it away. Today, I read through it and did some research, which brought me to this board. I checked on 20/20's site and found a story that claims this is a pyramid scheme and has never been endorsed by 20/20. Here's the link: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/PersonalBest/story?id=4193094&page=1
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 \| 12:20 AM One Plus One said: "People loose more than this on the lottery or gambling in casinos LEGALLY. So all of those arguments are just reactive and hypocritical." Utter nonsense. Yes, people "loose" [sic] money in casinos, but as you said, casinos are LEGAL. As a law-abiding American, doesn't that matter to you? Casinos are legal, in part, because they are REGULATED and PAY TAXES. Chain letters, as has been explained over and over again in this thread, are ILLEGAL because they CANNOT and DO NOT work. It is simply impossible for every participant to get back more money than they put in because they money is NOT invested, put in an interest-bearing account or used to start a business. There CANNOT possibly be more in the "till" at the end than there was in the beginning. Therefore, as any reasonably bright child could comprehend, it is NOT possible for everyone to come out ahead. You can dress this bullshit up any way you want, but it's still bullshit. Your "logic" is irrational.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 \| 12:26 AM Very Lucky Girl said: "You do have to pay $1.00 to join the club, but you are a member for life and you get to make unlimited requests for help." So, I could send in my dollar and make several requests for a hundred dollars each? Really? And I would get what I asked for each time with no problem? How many members are in this club? Who holds the money? What's to stop the person holding the money from just keeping it all for themselves? Does anyone send in MORE than a dollar? *How can we verify what you are saying about this "club?" Why am I sure that this is just another scam?
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 \| 12:31 AM Hey, Blister, isn't it fascinating how these supporters of chain letters keep repeating the same old canards, over and over? Apparently, none of these irrational dreamers can read this thread where it has been very carefully explained why chain letters are ILLEGAL (Hint: because they are FRAUDS.) Case in point: "You put out your information, which is acted on or tossed out. Technically you can do this legally because you are selling information. Who isn't these days?" We've gome over that very point several times now. To keep from looking stupid, all you have to do is READ SOME OF THE THREAD BEFORE YOU SAY SOMETHING WHICH HAS BEEN REFUTED MANY TIMES.
very lucky girl	Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 \| 04:24 PM I don't think that you quite understood how the club works. You pay a membership fee to be a member for life. You do not get to request things on a daily basis, that would just be absurd. There are limitations to how many requests you send out and they are researched to see if they are legit. And I do think you were personally trying to be a smart elect. But anyways, you fill out a request form telling everyone in the club what it is that you need and why. That request then gets forwarded to the other members, they are entitled to send you a donation, but if they want it could only be .01 cent. Now do you see where I'm going with this? Oh, and by the way I know that the ones that are receiveing the money are not keeping it, this club is actually run by 5 highly respected families in my area. I have attended meetings with this group and it is real. Donations are not against the law. They actually put more money into this than anyone else. What is illegal about this? This club is not sending out chain letters, we simply find individuals that would like the assurance if something were to happen tommorrow then there would be a big family there to support them. Like Charity! Is it illegal to send your family money if they were to come across hard times? NO! It in fact is not! And by the way the membership fee actually covers costs that are taken care of by the club leader and founders, like say for instance: Postage to send you invitations and requests, envelopes to send those requests to all of the club members. Any more questions?
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 \| 05:39 PM Very Lucky Girl said: "I don't think that you quite understood how the club works. You pay a membership fee to be a member for life. You do not get to request things on a daily basis, that would just be absurd. There are limitations to how many requests you send out and they are researched to see if they are legit." That's not what you said originally: "You do have to pay $1.00 to join the club, but you are a member for life and you get to make unlimited requests for help." My questions were based on what YOU said in your first post about this "club." Nothing smart alecky about that at all. "What is illegal about this? This club is not sending out chain letters, we simply find individuals that would like the assurance if something were to happen tommorrow then there would be a big family there to support them. Like Charity!" If it truly operates as you now describe, nothing about would seem to be illegal. That, of course, has NOTHING to do with chain letters, the subject of this thread, however. Chain letters ARE illegal because they DO NOT and CANNOT work as described.
very lucky girl	Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 \| 12:17 AM Great! So we both agree that chain letters are illegal, I was just simply posting an alternative to chain letters and scams, that might get individuals in huge sticky situation. I understand competely what you stated about chain letters. However, back to the post that I originally posted, you do get to make unlimited requests within the term of your membership, but they have to be spaced out. Is that better described? I agree that chain letters might not work as they are described, BUT if one does decide to follow through with what these chain letters offer, they are purely working on a hope and a prayer. It is simply out of luck that an individual might get any money at all. Proceed at you own risk alert! I believe that maybe this letter being discussed may have been created in some way to help out individuals, but of course simply for the creater to get a little pocket change as well. For those of you that have tried this chain letter, let's not go down that road again. If you did not know that it was illegal in any way, then I'm pretty sure nothing will happen to you, just as long as you do not do it again. Sometimes we get lucky in this lifetime, but not always, and if you are simply living your life on luck, then shame on you. It is these great chances that get good people down and out. You spend a lot of money hoping to get it back, but then what happens when you don't? You're out about $125.00, that's a big deal to me. When I participated in this fraudalent act, I did not know that it in fact was illegal, but now I do. I simply got lucky, I did not get in trouble and I got a little money out of it. But it's not always this way, I probably just got those sales leads that were very desperate. Those individuals that I sent this letter to have paid their dues and now they may not be getting anything in return. Don't let this be you!
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 \| 01:53 PM Very Lucky Girl said: "I agree that chain letters might not work as they are described..." It goes beyond that. They CANNOT work as described, since they're almost always pitched thusly: "If we all play by the rules, we can all come out ahead" or words to that effect. That CANNOT happen. "If you did not know that it was illegal in any way, then I'm pretty sure nothing will happen to you, just as long as you do not do it again." You really shouldn't say that. You can't possibly know what might happen. As has been pointed out previously, the government CAN and DOES prosecute chain letter participants from time to time.
jimmy, crack that corn !!!	Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 \| 01:28 PM `Chain letters are "self-employment" in the same way as bank robbery' What? .... absolutely amazing ... some folks truly are cranky ... is it nap time?
Mike	Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 \| 09:14 AM So are there any others who have reports on failure/success? We have heard form a few people who say/know its illegal! Ignore the fact that its illegal. I want to hear how people made out (+/-), not some blowhard(s) trying to convince everyone of the laws. Go to a lawyer forum. I want to see results please. Please post your results if you have done this in the past.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 \| 01:48 PM Mike said: "We have heard form a few people who say/know its illegal! Ignore the fact that its illegal. I want to hear how people made out (+/-), not some blowhard(s) trying to convince everyone of the laws." You have "heard" that they are illegal because they ARE, Mike. The exact laws involved have been linked to in this thread more than once. I'm sure a dimwit like you isn't aware that encouraging people to break the law is itself a crime. Oh, there I go, "trying to convince everyone of the law" again. Jesus, some people are stupid!
Mike	Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 \| 06:22 PM I am not disputing the fact that its illegal, nor is it my interest. I'll state it a different way? I want to hear from those who have tried this in the past. Not from those who have NOT TRIED IT. It seems that Crank has not done this in the past. Since you didn't understand my first post Cranky: it means you should not reply to my post, as you have never done this and have no bearing on my question. Wait.... maybe you have done it and it didn't work out so well for you? :\| That is a rhetorical question mind you, I'm not interested in the "real" answer. I am not advocating anything but knowledge in my question. If I suspect correctly (that its an illegal scam), you would want people to say "I tried it, and failed. Don't do it!" It would validate your position that its a scam, and an illegal scam. Some people stated they got $3000. Some $300, some nothing. So I ask again - those of you who have participated in the PAST, please let us know of the outcome. Only outcomes. We don't need to hear from you on this one Cranky. Please. AGAIN I am not interested in the legality discussion that Cranky has dominated like a broken record over the YEARS. Unreal. It's all black and white with Cranky. He's never gone faster than 55 mph in his entire life (wink-wink 😛 cause its the law). Believe that and I have a bridge to sell you in New York City.
The Darn Blister	Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 \| 08:58 PM Here, Mike, have some links to the websites of people who tried exactly that (exception: CW's story was on mmfhoh rather than on a site of his own). http://oppseek.wordpress.com/ http://dickhollman.blogspot.com/2007/10/stop-wasting-your-money.html http://demo.capris.com/Makemoremoney/investigate.cfm http://www.mmfhoh.org/index.php/2006/10/06/unconditional_surrender You could also ask the florist at youarehereandnow.com , but he'll feed you a line of bullshit miles long to try to get money out of you. His sister told me she and their Mom took him to court once for stealing from them.
Elizabeth	Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 \| 11:55 PM Originally I found this site looking for pyramid schemes and the new "legal" one that I received stating some codes of U.S. Postal law, and I was trying to find out what the codes mentioned really said and so I goggled it and found this forum. I just wanted to respond to this statement posted by Pat Henry: "Many interviews with former IRS agents who resigned after investigating and discovering that there was in fact no law that requires anyone to pay income tax. They've been "scewing" American citizens for..well... almost a century. Which, come to think of it...may be why many folks today are struggling with multiple jobs, loosing homes, and could use a little help. But then, the feds will have a hard time taxing these little moving dollars wouldnt they?" Yes it is legal, in fact it's in the constitution. The 16th amendment clearly states: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration." The amendment was ratified along with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, but that act didn't make taxing legal, the amendment to the Constitution did. Just a thought, if there really wasn't a law requiring people to pay taxes don't you think the TAX LAWYERS would have figured that out by now and no one would be going to jail for not paying taxes, and the TAX ACCOUNTANTS and TAX LAWYERS would be out of a job. I have a masters in Tax Accounting, and I assure you not only are there laws requiring taxes to be paid, but there are laws (granted ever changing laws, but laws none the less)on pretty much every aspect of taxing that you could possibly imagine. Personally I, probably like yourself, don't agree with all of them, but I assure you they are all perfectly legal, because guess what the the people enacting laws on our county decide they want to do something, and someone, as in the case of the taxation, challenges them, they make a law letting them do what they want to do, hence why we have the 16th amendment.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 \| 01:00 AM Mike said: "It's all black and white with Cranky. He's never gone faster than 55 mph in his entire life (wink-wink raspberry cause its the law). Believe that and I have a bridge to sell you in New York City." I just LOVE your "logic." So, since I have on occasion violated the speed limit, that proves what exactly? If I drive 60 in a 55 MPH zone, does that somehow "prove" that the mathematically impossible scam known as a "chain letter" is legal? Since you're claiming that you don't want to break the law, what IS your point here? This thread has been going on for a few years now. Shouldn't the fact that no one ever posts about the GREAT SUCCESS they've had with a chain letter tell you something? Or are all those chain letter millionaires out there just shy?
Elizabeth	Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 \| 02:32 AM After finding this posting, and seeing the need to point out tax law I read the post and these are the conclusions I have come to. It is illegal, there is no doubt, Cranky Media Guy has given numerous logical points and facts coming strait from the USPS statement. Also here is a link to a court case that was won by the USPS on this specific "mailing list" chain letter. http://www.usps.com/judicial/1978deci/6-72.htm That being said it is highly unlikely that you will be prosecuted for mailing out a chain letter, however it is a federal offense if you do. And because of the legal jargon you might could find a lawyer than can find some legal loophole to save you from jail time, although this will be extremely, extremely costly. My second point, and I realize that both of these have been said repeatedly, but not by me, is that it cannot work for everyone like the letter claims. I am an accountant, I can give you numbers if you would like but I think that would be like beating a dead horse. It could possibly work for some people, but not everyone like the letter claims. Let me rephrase that it will work for some people, but not for the vast majority of people. One of my friends actually did this, thinking and hopping that she would make enough money to pay back her 10,000 student loan, she made a whooping 5 bucks.
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