The Museum of Hoaxes
A Postal-Mail Chain Letter?
Posted By:
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Nov 14, 2004
 I received this chain letter in my mailbox:

Dear Friend,
Greetings: I am a retired attorney. A few years ago a man came to me with a letter. He asked me to verify the fact that this was legal to do. I told him I would review it and get back to him. When I first red the letter my client brought me, I thought it was some "off-the-wall" idea to make money. A week and a half later we met in my office to discuss the issue. I told him the letter he originally brought me was not 100% legal. My client then asked me to later it to make it perfectly legal. I asked him to make one small change in the letter.

***
It goes on for another 2 pages about how if you send $1 to the 6 names on the list & you will make $800,000.00 in just 3 months. You pay for a list of names to send letters to. I KNOW this is a scam. I just can't figure out how I got it. It came to me at my married name (junk-mail tends to come to my maiden name), & it came to my actual house address. (My driver's license lists my PO Box & if you look me up at the DMV, the physical address is actually my prior residence...haven't had time to change it yet.) The phone & electric aren't registered in my name, they're registered to my husband. (There's not a water bill, we have a well.)

What I wanna know is: How did this come to me, with my correct name at my current physical address??? The 'person' who sent the letter is: Mr. Louis Jordan/1234 Shakespeare Avenue/Apt # 2E/Bronx, NY 10452

Also, a co-worker recently had someone slip this same letter under his door at his apartment building...Anyone hear anything about this??
Category: Scams; Replies: 1759

Comments
Page 15 of 30 pages ‹ First  < 13 14 15 16 17 >  Last ›
dixie
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 | 09:57 AM
"Some times you wanna go.....Where everybody knows your naaaame.....and their always glad you came...you wanna go where people go whos troubles are all the same.....You wanna go where everybody knows your name..."

Cheers.......to you CMG
Katrina
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 | 12:02 PM
Leonard,

I think I am sitting here looking at the letter you sent out. Did you include a personal note? Does your last name start with a M? If so, then this letter is from you. So it reached all the way to Wisconsin by June of 2008. You are still #6 on the list. If I do this myself, you will be #5.

However, I am not going to do it, seeing as how no one here has made money off of it. I wonder if the people in my region have been getting these though, if not it might actually work because no one around here has seen these before. Like it probably wouldn't work if you lived in a state where people have been doing the chain letters for awhile, but in a new place you might have a chance? Plus looking at these posts they are all from 2006 and 2007, if no one has done these in awhile. Perhaps holding onto the letter and waiting another year or so before I start might bring me more participants? The economy is pretty bad right now, I feel like if I do it no one would respond.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 | 01:41 PM
Katrina, who is Leonard and why do you think he is n this thread?

"Perhaps holding onto the letter and waiting another year or so before I start might bring me more participants? The economy is pretty bad right now, I feel like if I do it no one would respond."

Katrina, you may wish to read this thread. If you do, you will see that chain letters are ILLEGAL and CANNOT and DO NOT work as they claim to.
Johnnyboy
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 | 05:17 PM
I am holding an advertisment from Chrysler Jeep KIA Car Lot. Sent to me through the mail with a scratch match and win on it. How come they can get away with sending, what appears to be lottery material, through the mail? Plus I am a member of the players club at a few casinos and they send me monthly gambling material? How can this be, if it's illegal??? Also, when you buy a scratch lotto ticket, depending on the amount won you have to contact them through the mail service to receive your winnings??? Can someone explain this to me?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 | 01:08 AM
Johnnyboy, are you wondering why companies can send those things through the mail legally while chain letters are ILLEGAL?

Yes, those things look like lottery tickets, but they don't require you to make a purchase to play.

When I was in radio, I learned that there are three components that make up a lottery:

1: Prize
2: Consideration
3: Chance

1 and 3 are self-explanatory. "Consideration" refers to having to buy something to participate, basically. Governments are allowed to operate lotteries which require you to buy a ticket. In some areas, charities are also allowed to run fundraisers which require a purchase (like church raffles, etc.)

When you refer to a lotto, I assume you're referring to a state-run lottery, right? Those, unlike chain letters which CANNOT work as they are claimed to, are legal.

I hope that helps you understand this. Please keep in mind that I'm not a lawyer, but this is all correct to the best of my knowledge.
Mike
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 | 05:20 PM
I just got one of these in Orlando. I will be writing these 6 people a letter telling them that if they have enough time to clog up the mail system and slow down my Netflix movies, and increase my taxes hiring more postal employees to shuffle millions of these letters, then maybe they have time to look for a 2nd job if they need the extra cash. Maybe anyone reading this blog can send one too. Hopefully they'll get tired of opening these letters up trying to get their $1 dollars bills.

1. J.L. Weize, PO Box 662, Henderson, CO 80640
2. Renia Johnson,3931 Pennsgrove St,
Philadelphia, PA 19104
3. Edward Gross, 2456 Karen Dr #3,
Santa Clara, CA 95050
4. S. Harper, PO Box 2217, Orem, UT 84057
5. Bong M. Lee, 6775 Meadow Creek Dr #103,
Columbus, OH 43235
6. Raymond J Lee Jr., 3004 SE 21st Ln,
Gainsville, FL 32641

Also, I think Cranky Media Guy started this whole thing. Even though he keeps saying it's illegal, he keeps everyone interested with this blog. Look back at the 1st blogs in 2006 and there he is bloging about it then too. Or, he may be a postal worker with no life like Cliff Claven from "Cheers"!!!
Mike
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 | 05:22 PM
I'm sorry, April of 2005.
Dude, get a life!
Dixie
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 | 11:42 AM
Mike /said"Also, I think Cranky Media Guy started this whole thing. Even though he keeps saying it's illegal, he keeps everyone interested with this blog. Look back at the 1st blogs in 2006 and there he is bloging about it then too. Or, he may be a postal worker with no life like Cliff Claven from "Cheers"!!!"

Well Cranky...this goes to show that no matter how much time you spend trying to help the human race they will eventually hate you for it...and place blame on the ones who tried to help......Ironic huh.....Strange that they probably appreciate the person who sent the letter more than the one who keeps them from getting ripped....how dare you protect anyone....its all your fault...lol
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 | 01:38 PM
Yup, it's all my fault. I mean, what possible better way could there be to encourage people to participate in chain letters than to explain over and over, using logic and facts, how and why they are illegal and CANNOT work as claimed?

I should have realized that my cunning plan was so obvious.
Jen
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 | 02:48 AM
I just received this chain letter today and the very first thing I did was Google it and go the USPS website. I've always heard that chain letters were illegal. I had no intentions of participating in it, but was curious anyway. I stumbled onto this message forum and have been skimming through a lot of the posts. I can't believe this discussion has been going on since 2005! It seems that this particular chain letter has given many people a false sense of hope!

There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting the "American dream". Don't we all? But participating in something that's illegal that could possibly take away your right to freedom is just stupid. Yes the chances are slim that you will get caught , but maybe not as slim as you think. Say that this scam actually worked. What if your mail carrier started to notice all of the suspicious looking mail that you are receiving and decides to report it? It could happen. Why risk it?!?

Adding to what Cranky media guy has stated time and time again.. it's ILLEGAL!! The USPS website clearly says that any chain letter involving money is illegal. Even if you're exchanging goods, like a mailing list, for money it's ILLEGAL because it involves money. The only kind of chain letter that's NOT ILLEGAL is one that doesn't involve money. Like for instance, you send each person on the list a recipe, then add your name to the list. That's not illegal, because there isn't any money involved. I've probably made a point that has already been made, but I didn't have time to read through every post. Just wanted to add my two cents. And with that being said, it's just my opinion and I can't stop, nor am I trying to stop others from doing what they want to do. If they have it set in their mind, they're going to do it whether it's right to do it or not. They're just looking for someone to justify it for them.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 | 04:48 AM
You summed it up quite well, Jen. Yes, some of that has been said before but apparently it can't be repeated enough to get through to some people.

To add to what you said, not only are chain letters ILLEGAL, they also CANNOT work as claimed.

Other than that, though, they're just dandy.
Andrea
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 | 09:36 PM
Wow - I simply wished to report that we have been sent at least 5 of these letters here in WI within 2 months. Also from the same people seems to be the Shopping Feedback Inc Scam with a 4995.00 check. I'll just let you all bicker it out.
Kind Regards
Andrea
housewife1121
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 | 02:10 PM
Ok I'm home now. And on here for the last time after reading a slandering comment from an honest worker. Evidently he thinks he can grasp via internet exactly what a person does for a living. Just because I do medical transcribing does not negate anything else I may do to earn money. Also, never once in the posting did it say I was in management of this particular company. Now, I will be leaving for good to tend to my new child and my happy life. This person is a pathetic, jelous person who only wants to argue and prove people wrong. I could rattle off enough proof of my statements to please him right now, but frankly...I just dont care what he thinks, or thinks he knows.
Joana D'ark
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 | 06:04 PM
It seems that Cranky Media Guy might have tried and it did not work for him or he is affraid people will take business from him...

Here is link that he bases his legal expertise on:

http://www.usps.com/judicial/1978deci/6-72.htm

CONCLUSIONS OF LAW

1. Respondent is engaged in conducting a scheme or device for obtaining money through the mails by means of representations materially false in fact in violation of 39 U.S.C., 3005.

2. Such scheme is also a scheme for the distribution of money by chance thus falling within the definition of lottery as found above. See Zebelman v. U.S. , 339 F.2d 484 (10th Cir. 1964). As such the scheme also violates 39 U.S.C., 3005.

3. In essence the scheme is nothing more or less than the well-known chain letter. The fact that participants are to receive for each $2.00 invested a one-page "money making" report is obviously only an unsuccessful attempt to camouflage the principal characteristic of the scheme as a chain letter, or lottery.

4. An order pursuant to 39 U.S.C., 3005 in the form attached should be issued against respondent.


Ultimately, I think MR.CRANKY doesn't understand what a real "Chain Letter" is. In any given case, the only organization that "could" be doing something illegal (in his interpretation I guess) would be Data Line One which sells the list of names to be used in this "people helping people mailing busines". But I think it is unlikely...

I am very curious about the legality of this specific "chain letter" and I will consult a real attorney. I'll post again after I have an answer.

Meanwhile, MR. CRANKY should take a stress test or a vacation...
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 | 06:39 PM
Joana D'ark said:

"It seems that Cranky Media Guy might have tried and it did not work for him or he is affraid people will take business from him..."

Bzzzt! WRONG. Neither of those is true, but thanks for playing, Joana.

Um, if I was in the business of running a chain letter, what sense would it make for me to say--repeatedly--that they are illegal and don't work? Wouldn't that tend to harm my business?

By the way, I am NOT basing what I've said repeatedly on what you cited. I'm basing it on the dozens of books in the library which can explain why chain letters are illegal and cannot work as claimed and the main section of the U.S. Postal Service's website where they explain, in simple English, WHY they are illegal. Gee, if only I had said that in this thread. Oh, that's right, I DID. More than once, in fact.

I must say that this part of what you quoted is rather informative, though:

"3. In essence the scheme is nothing more or less than the well-known chain letter. The fact that participants are to receive for each $2.00 invested a one-page "money making" report is obviously only an unsuccessful attempt to camouflage the principal characteristic of the scheme as a chain letter, or lottery."

Time and time again, we get people here who claim that whatever chain letter they're involved in or are considering becoming involved in isn't really a chain letter at all because there's some silly "report" or something attached to it.

As I've explained--REPEATEDLY--courts have ruled that merely including some "report," etc. does NOT magically make a chain letter legal. It's about INTENT. If the intent is determined to be to operate a chain letter, that stupid "report" isn't going to work as a defense.

Besides, as I've also pointed out REPEATEDLY, chain letters CANNOT work as claimed because there is NO outside source of money, therefore it is NOT possible for everyone to end up with more money than they originally put in. This is SO simple to understand that no adult with a three-digit IQ should have difficulty with it.

I'll ask again: where are the many chain letter millionaires that would exist if these things worked? Where are the late night infomercials selling the "E-Z Method to Big Money Via Chain Letters"? Where are the success stories about chain letter operators in business magazines and on CNBC and Fox Business News? If chain letters work, why does anyone need to have a job? Why wouldn't we all just get involved in a chain letter and rake in the Big Bucks with almost no effort?

Is that crickets I hear? Yup, as always.

By the way, Joana, after you speak to an attorney, please give us his/her name so we can determine if he/she actually exists and is really a lawyer. Thanks.
People Helping People
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 | 03:32 PM
Cranky Guy Said:
"Why companies can send those things through the mail legally while chain letters are ILLEGAL?
Yes, those things look like lottery tickets, but they don't require you to make a purchase to play."

The letter are not selling anything. My letter says it is just people helping people by multilevel marketing.
If I chose to send someone $1.00, it will be by choice. Just like in a business, you invest and HOPE for the best.
But if you chose to see it that way, the letter says that you should have an accountant, pay taxes because you are officially in the mail order business...

"chain letters CANNOT work as claimed"
Mathematically, IT CAN.

"because there is NO outside source of money,"
The money receive IS outside money which you should pay for expenses of running the Mail Order Business and invest again.

"It is NOT possible for everyone to end up with more money than they originally put in".
WHAT?!?! Isn't this is what ALL businesses are about????? You invest what you can in order to get the biggest return as possible. The only way you can't get more money than you originally put in is if you can't sell your services or merchandise. Anyone with a three digit IQ knows that.

I believe that the only reason this doesn't work better is because of people like MR. Cranky and human skepticism nature, which it not always a bad thing but it can be.

After Hurricane Katrina, so many people (me included) donated so much to completely strangers just because we felt compassion for people that needed and still needs a lot of financial help just to see how government agencies mismanaged and other people taking advantage of the situation.

I agree with the letter that I received, everyone should help one another and gives very specific instructions on how you should proceed before and after you send the letters but I am also positive that some people will try to do it differently thinking they will outsmart the person that send them the letter in the first place. But I strongly believe that if you honestly believe that you are helping the ones before you, there will always be the ones after you that will try to help you too.

I did send $1.00 to the people on the list and I only hope that they are among the ones that need some financial relieve and that my meager $1.00 can be of some assistance.

Will I send the letter forward? Maybe.
I do wish to change somethings that I do find inapropiate like mentioning ABC's 20/20 and Oprah's name. I believe if you do that, you should pay royalties, right Media Cranky Guy?

My letter also mentions Data Line One like Joana's. I called them and they said that their name should not be on the letter because they don't know what people INTEND to do with it and they even have lawyers to deal with people that use their name unauthorized. But There are a lot of other agencies that do what they do and it is a legitimate business.

Finally, from looking online, I've notice that there are different versions of this so famous letter and maybe someone who posted something here is right. Find yourself a lawyer and tell him/her to make it legal. Who knows, it might be a way and Media crancky guy will get off of people's back. I strongly believe that if you keep trying hard, you will find what you are looking for...

For Media cranky guy and others like him/her please, just the fact that people are taking their time to research in the way that is available to them/us, should tell you that people may be looking for a honest way of supplementing their salaries. In my household, we haven't had a salary rise in almost 3 years. Not to mention that the price of our house went down by half of what we paid for. But the price of everything else has skyrocket. Trust me, if we could get a second job while making enough money to provide care for our children, we would.

So if my $1.00 went to someone that trully needs, I am happy.
jane
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 | 03:51 PM
CHECK THIS OUT!!!!

MR. JUST WANTS FREE PUBLICITY!!!!
😊 :lol: :cheese:

http://www.crankymediaguy.com/tomsgirl.html
Joana D'ark
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 | 04:56 PM
It looks like I got Mr. Cranky's attention!!!

Mr. Cranky says:

"By the way, Joana, after you speak to an attorney, please give us his/her name so we can determine if he/she actually exists and is really a lawyer. Thanks."

Sure, Mr. Cranky...I really care about your opinion, so I'll pay a lawyer for you 😊

For everyone else, I can only see my lawyer in about 2 weeks but meawhile, here is what I found on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_letter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

After doing what People Helping People did, I did find that my letter is different from the ones posted online...but it could just have evolved who knows.

On my letter, you are out of the list after 6 people responds. If you want more money, you have to start over. So I guess it could be sustainable, who knows...Oh yeah, that's right; Mr. Cranky sure knows 😊
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 | 05:59 PM
Joana D'ark said:

"Sure, Mr. Cranky...I really care about your opinion, so I'll pay a lawyer for you"

Gee, Joana, I could SWEAR that you said in your previous post that you were going to speak to your attorney. Why, lookie here:

"I am very curious about the legality of this specific "chain letter" and I will consult a real attorney. I'll post again after I have an answer."

NO WAY is any real lawyer going to tell you that this stupid chain letter is legal. THAT'S why I asked you to provide us with the lawyer's name so we could check him/her out. I only wish you could see how hard I'm laughing at you furiously backpedaling right now.

"After doing what People Helping People did, I did find that my letter is different from the ones posted online...but it could just have evolved who knows."

What "differences" do you see in this thing from any other chain letter that will magically make it legal?

Putting that aside, just as I predicted, you are completely ignoring the mathematical impossibility of how chain letters supposedly work. You apologists for this well-documented scam always ignore the simple arithmetic that PROVES that it can't work. 2+2 CANNOT be made to equal 5, even when you call it "people helping people."

By the way, back in the 80's when I was hanging around the Allentown area of Pennsylvania, there was a pyramid scheme making the rounds, calling itself "Friends Helping Friends." Sound familiar? That one couldn't work either and left many people out a lot of money.

Rackets like this always give themselves a nice-sounding name, to distract people from the greed behind them. It's devious but simple psychology.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 | 06:07 PM
People Helping People said:

"I believe that the only reason this doesn't work better is because of people like MR. Cranky and human skepticism nature, which it not always a bad thing but it can be."

Bzzzt! WRONG. It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with me or skepticism. It has to do with simple mathematics.

Imagine ten people sitting around a table. In the center of the table is a hat. Each person puts ten dollars in the hat. Nothing else is done with the money in the hat. Then, the first person reaches into the hat and takes out twenty dollars. So do the next four people.

Wow, five happy people! They doubled their money without doing anything. Then Number Six reaches into the hat. Hey, what's the deal? Where's HIS twenty bucks? For that matter, where's the ten bucks he put in?

That, in essence, is how chain letters and pyramid schemes work. The people who get in early CAN take out more than they put in (those, of course, include the people who START the scam). People further down the line, however, MUST lose their money in order for that to happen.

It isn't "people helping people" or "friends helping friends." It's SCAM ARTISTS RIPPING OFF OTHER PEOPLE. Period.

"After Hurricane Katrina, so many people (me included) donated so much to completely strangers just because we felt compassion for people that needed and still needs a lot of financial help just to see how government agencies mismanaged and other people taking advantage of the situation."

And this has what, exactly, to do with a chain letter? You donated some money to people in need with no expectation of getting it back. How does that compare in any way with putting money into a chain letter or pyramid scheme where you are expecting to get back more than you put in?

Your "logic" is irrational.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 | 07:08 PM
Jane said:

"CHECK THIS OUT!!!!

MR. JUST WANTS FREE PUBLICITY!!!!"

Wow, Jane, you're quite the detective there, aren't you? Someone who was working as a personality on the morning drive show on a rock radio station WANTED PUBLICITY? Stop the presses!

And your point is what exactly? Does that fact that I managed to get national attention for a story I was involved in somehow imply to you that the simple FACTS about chain letters I have outlined here are incorrect in some detail?

If so, please explain where I am incorrect about chain letters. For that matter, please explain, if you can, why dozens or hundreds of books written over the past several decades which can be found in public libraries all around the world are incorrect when they explain how and why chain letters are illegal scams.

I guess it's some kind of Global Conspiracy to keep friends from helping friends. By the way, that last sentence should be filed under "sarcasm."
e40
Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 | 09:54 AM
hi guys i got this letter too im a 17 year old football player trying to get my spot in this hard and cruel world i read this letter probably 20 times and my understanding was if you dont get the planned money that is cause your return rate was low or you send out not enough letters thats it and the guy who started this may be an attourny no one knows but that doesnt mean the second person who got the letter is too and from my understanding it proves the letter is legal by stateing the rights
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 | 01:38 PM
e40 said:

"from my understanding it proves the letter is legal by stateing the rights"

I'm not sure what you man by "rights" but I can tell you that chain letters involving the exchange of money are NOT legal in America. You should read more of this thread where this is explained in detail.

Just because someone says something in a letter, that does not mean that what they say is true. OF COURSE a person running a scam like a chain letter is going to say it's legal. Would you expect them to say "This is illegal but you should participate in it anyway"?

Also, you need to know that chain letters CANNOT possibly make everyone in the chain come out ahead money-wise. That is impossible mathematically.
Greg
Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 | 01:41 PM
Boom Chugga Lugga Lugga
Boom Chugga Lugga Lugga
Boom Chugga Lugga Lugga
BOOM
greg
Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 | 01:47 PM
Who took the time to write hundreds or even dozens of books explaining why chain letters are illegal. When they could have been using that time addressing 200 envelopes and making tons of other peoples money. Then again, who would take the time to read, and know there are dozens or maybe even hundreds of those books that do exist in this cruel world of 6 dollar rip off artists.
Must've been you Spanky......
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 | 05:15 PM
"Greg" said"

"Who took the time to write hundreds or even dozens of books explaining why chain letters are illegal."

Uh, people who actually care enough about their fellow humans to want to help them not lose their money to crooks? Just a g
Mike
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 | 01:50 AM
CMG: Here's the long and short of it. My letter states that "When you send out those letters, you are in the mail order business. People are sending you 1.00 to be put on your mailing list." Last time I checked America was still free and anyone could start there own business. Not a chain letter, once you've gone to the 6th person your name is dropped you are no longer involved unless you remail. Not a pyramid because once again you are dropped after the 6th person, not the same people at the top reaping the rewards of others.

Seems to me this is a basic outline of how to start your own mail order business, granted you don't have all the info, Nothing is mentioned of registering the name of your business, ein#'s, quarterly taxes, ect., but still a business outline.

Lottery? nope. you're not taking a chance on anything, you're asking to be put on a mailing list which i can send christmas cards to, or sell to victoria's secrets, or whoever will buy my list.

Lottery: chance, consideration, prize. sounds like insurance to me, i can find out the odds of getting into a car wreck (chance), I bought a piece of paper that says if I am in a wreck they will fix my car (consideration), and if I am they will fix my car (prize). but yet they send my certificate (consideration) through the mail, and I mail my premium, isn't that illegal according to the Postal Codes?
Mike
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 | 02:07 AM
CMG: To further my previous post, I do own 2 small business and just recieved this letter. I don't think if you paid me 5,000 to re-roof your house that I robbed you. I don't think if I started a mail order business and asked someone to pay a dollar to be included on my mailing list that I robbed them. They will be getting mailings for whatever, maybe advertising for my small businesses. I will also send them an outline of how to start their own business which has the potential for unlimited income. I don't think a dollar for a business outline is outrageous, you pay more for a soda at the convience store. Just because I ask you to mail it to me is not a crime. I frequently use the mail for my business contracts and often recieve payment through the mail. This letter even advises me to set aside money for business expenses, and for self-employment tax (30%) approx. minus business expenses and other legal write-offs, and even start a savings account (10%), can all this be wrong? I thought we were still in America, land of the free, the land of opportunity. People have risked life and limb to get here to live the american dream, to make a better life for themselves. I ask a dollar to put you on my opportunity seekers mailing list, and send you a blueprint to start your own business and now I am a felon? that makes no sense. Did you get more than you invested when you worked for the radio station? where did the "Magic Money" come from? Did your boss rip someone off to be able to pay you? How could you work for someone so unethical? Did someone lose so you could gain? wasn't that wrong?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 | 01:52 PM
Mike said:

"CMG: Here's the long and short of it. My letter states that "When you send out those letters, you are in the mail order business. People are sending you 1.00 to be put on your mailing list."

Mike, if you read more of this thread, you'd see that this has been covered. Calling it a "mailing list" does NOT make it legal. No point in arguing with me about this; I didn't make this up, it's the ruling on more than one occasion by the court.

"Last time I checked America was still free and anyone could start there own business."

Well, yes, assuming that the "business" in question is LEGAL. I can't, for instance, go into the bank robbing "business."

"Not a chain letter, once you've gone to the 6th person your name is dropped you are no longer involved unless you remail. Not a pyramid because once again you are dropped after the 6th person, not the same people at the top reaping the rewards of others."

You, like other defenders of scams like chain letters, are trying to rewrite the basic laws of math. With NO investment of the money in the "pool," it is NOT possible for everyone to come out ahead. You can't finesse your way out of this simple problem.

"Lottery? nope. you're not taking a chance on anything, you're asking to be put on a mailing list which i can send christmas cards to, or sell to victoria's secrets, or whoever will buy my list."

No, it's NOT a lottery, because only the government can legally operate a lottery in the U.S.

As I've explained before, calling a chain letter a "mailing list" doesn't make it legal. The courts have ruled that it's all about INTENT. If your INTENT is determined to be to operate a chain letter, that "mailing list" argument will not prevail.

This is not my opinion; this is what courts have ruled over the past several decades. You haven't invented anything new here. The "mailing list" argument is old stuff.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 | 01:59 PM
Mike (again) said:

"I don't think if I started a mail order business and asked someone to pay a dollar to be included on my mailing list that I robbed them. They will be getting mailings for whatever, maybe advertising for my small businesses. I will also send them an outline of how to start their own business which has the potential for unlimited income. I don't think a dollar for a business outline is outrageous, you pay more for a soda at the convience store. Just because I ask you to mail it to me is not a crime."

Mike, it isn't about what you or I think; it's about what the LAW says. Your opinion is irrelevent.

"Did you get more than you invested when you worked for the radio station? where did the "Magic Money" come from? Did your boss rip someone off to be able to pay you? How could you work for someone so unethical? Did someone lose so you could gain? wasn't that wrong?"

That's an irrational argument. When someone has a job, they are exchanging their labor for money. Your employer pays you less than the value he can extract from your labor. That's how he makes a profit. Everyone understands this principle. It has NOTHING to do with a chain letter which makes promises that CANNOT be kept, which is why they are illegal.

If you think that the laws against chain letters are unfair, you need to take that concern to your legislators, rather than arguing with people like me who are simply stating the facts as they exist.

Good luck tilting at THAT windmill.
The Darn Blister
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 | 02:01 PM
Mike, that scheme hasn't been legal in over 70 years, not since the Send-A-Dime letter nearly destroyed the state of Colorado in 1935. What you are doing is selling people the opportunity to sell the opportunity to sell the same opportunity, with no product or service that the courts can or will recognize. Not valid under all kinds of laws. Sale of unregistered securities, wire fraud, illegal lottery, mail fraud, and if you advise other people that chain letters are legal, you can add practice of law without a license to that list.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 | 06:48 PM
Blister, I've said in the past on this thread that chain letters have been illegal since at least the era of the Great Depression. You expanded on that very well. Thanks for that (not that FACTS will deter those who insist on believing that 2+2 can be made to equal 5, of course).

They WANT to believe that money can come from nowhere so much that logic and fact can't dent that shell they've built up around their brain.
Marnie
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 | 02:52 PM
Cranky Media Guy - I notice that you have been responding to this so called "chain letter" controversy since April 15, 2005 (your last response being July 5, 2008) That's a little over three years. Don't you have a life? How pathetic.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 | 05:35 PM
Yes, Marnie, I most assuredly do have a life.
W
hat business of yours is it if I choose to try to help people from wasting money on a scam? Of course, there's always the possibility that you are involved in the scam and not happy about my telling people the truth about it.

As I'm not really interested in what you think about me or how I spend my time, don't count on me stopping any time soon.
Deallover
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 | 09:22 PM
I received the letter and it sounds very legal, I don't see how anyone can get in trouble. From all the forums that I have been reading, it has been altered to meet the law.
JACOB JAMESON
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 | 11:12 PM
i made $16,213 off of doing this... MAIL MAIL MAIL
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 | 12:21 AM
Deallover said:

"I received the letter and it sounds very legal, I don't see how anyone can get in trouble. From all the forums that I have been reading, it has been altered to meet the law."

Really? What would those "alterations" be? Please tell us. I, for one, would be fascinated to see them.

JACOB JAMESON in Atlanta, GA 30033 said:

"i made $16,213 off of doing this... MAIL MAIL MAIL"

Did you now, Jacob? Well, since chain letters are perfectly legal (according to you defenders of this scam) and I'm SURE you paid income tax on the money you claim to have made, you'll have no problem with me reporting what you said to the U.S. Postal Service's Investigation Unit, right?

My guess is that you're totally full of shit about making any money from a chain letter, in which case, you'll have no problem with the Postal Service. On the off chance that you aren't lying, however, best of luck with the Investigative Unit which has the highest rate of conviction of any federal law enforcement department, something on the order of 97% if I remember.

Anyone else want to confess to a federal felony?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 | 12:24 AM
Anyone else find it interesting that, all of a sudden, we're getting an influx of people who have never posted to this thread before, intent on defending the well-documented scam called chain letters?

They don't work because they CAN'T work. Plus, they're illegal. Other than that, no problem.
Deallover
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 | 02:04 PM
Cranky Media Guy,

Why do you have to be so mean, if you don't believe in it and don't do it, then let it be. It gives people dreams, and to them, it's worth the stuffing envelopes. It's not hurting anything and if people don't claim it on their taxes then they can get in trouble. If you follow the directions and claim it on your taxes you should be fine!
WG
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 | 02:59 PM
Here's something to consider:

If you "earn" more than $10,000 with this scam and try to deposit it in a bank, they WILL report it to the IRS.

And what, realistically speaking, would you do with 10,000 $1 bills, if not deposit it in a bank?

The US government has very specific laws regarding chain letters. So technically, if you're REALLY unlucky, you could have the IRS, the USPS, and possibly the FBI investigating everything you do. It's not worth the risk.

I can understand the desire to supplement one's income. A lot of people are going through some hard times right now. But no matter which way you slice it, a chain letter just isn't the legal way to do it.

I've always believed in the mantra of, "work smarter, not harder," but breaking the law to acquire money is definitely not smart.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 | 04:58 PM
Deallover said:

"Why do you have to be so mean, if you don't believe in it and don't do it, then let it be. It gives people dreams, and to them, it's worth the stuffing envelopes."

It isn't a question of "not believing in it." It's that I know chain letters CANNOT and DO NOT work and that they're are illegal. What part of that is hard to understand?

If you want to dream about wealth, why not just buy a lottery ticket? The odds aren't great, but people DO actually win them, plus they're legal.

"It's not hurting anything and if people don't claim it on their taxes then they can get in trouble."

Lying to people to take their money doesn't hurt anything? Really?

"If you follow the directions and claim it on your taxes you should be fine!"

Oh, really? And how would you explain how you made that big wad of money? If you said that you got it from a chain letter, you would be confessing to a crime. If you didn't report it on your taxes, that, too, would be a crime. That, of course, assumes that you'll actually make money from a chain letter which, unless you're the organizer, you almost certainly will not.
Deallover
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 | 05:13 PM
I guess a lot of people just don't know the laws. I guess I don't have to agree with them, I don't see anything wrong with the chain letter but wouldn't want to break the law!
Deallover
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 | 05:15 PM
I don't see how it's lying to people so I wouldn't say that sending a dollar to someone to get on a mailing list would be lying to people.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 | 12:48 AM
Deallover said:

"I don't see how it's lying to people so I wouldn't say that sending a dollar to someone to get on a mailing list would be lying to people."

Deallover, you really should read more of this thread. If and when you do, you'll see it explained that calling a chain letter a "mailing list" does NOT magically make it legal. The courts are on to that ruse and have been for decades.

It's all about INTENT. When it's determined that your INTENT is to operate a chain letter, it doesn't matter what you call it, it's illegal.

Why are chain letters illegal? As has been explained many times here, they are illegal because they CANNOT work as claimed. No matter how much money is in the "pot," it cannot exceed 100% of what was put into it since it is not invested in anything. For everyone in the chain to come out ahead, there would have to be more than 100%. That, as any rational adult with an IQ higher than room temperature will realize, is impossible.

You can call it a "mailing list," you can call it "friends helping friends." It doesn't matter, it's a SCAM, pure and simple.
patsy
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 | 01:43 AM
I just want to say i received the letter about 3 months ago 2 was skeptical about it i did my homework on it and send it out on 7/1/08 have not received a responses yet but will keep everyone posted once a week i feel if everyone is honest about it, it will work its just giving a helping hand..... 💋
Deallover
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 | 08:15 AM
Please keep us posted patsy
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 | 02:00 PM
Patsy said:

"i feel if everyone is honest about it, it will work its just giving a helping hand....."

Patsy, did you spend any time at all reading this thread? Apparently not as I just went into how giving a chain letter a different name like "friends helping friends" or "giving a helping hand" does not magically make it legal or even make it WORK.

I'd LOVE to know what "homework" you did that convinced you that a chain letter is legal and can work (by "work" I mean that it can make all participants come out ahead financially). Please explain to us all how that voodoo is accomplished. Where does the extra money come from?

What you BELIEVE is irrelevant. Chain letters CANNOT work as claimed because the math is impossible. No matter how sincerely you believe that 2+2 can be made to equal 5, it can't.

Time to stop listening to Oprah and her "Soul Series" nonsense and live in the real world.
Harold Nix
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 | 04:00 PM
Sort of late I suppose, but I sent out the letters. They went out June 25th and today is July 10th. I have received 2 responses for the 365 letters I sent out. If I lose, I lose. One can lose more in a silly traffic ticket than what this will cost. Lighten up and have some fun. Chain letter? I think not, as I'm just kindly asking people to let them be put on my mailing list is all...That is their choice to do so or not. We'll just have to see I suppose. Where are all these laws at? I've not a copy of them..how are individuals to know? How can one play by the rules if the rules are not given?
hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
 Member
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 | 04:06 PM
Y'know... I'm less amazed that this is still going on than I am that Cranky Media Guy is still trying to use common sense to get people to understand why they shouldn't participate...
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 | 04:45 PM
hcmomof4 said:

"Y'know... I'm less amazed that this is still going on than I am that Cranky Media Guy is still trying to use common sense to get people to understand why they shouldn't participate..."

You know, I wonder about that myself some times.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 | 04:58 PM
Harold Nix said:

"One can lose more in a silly traffic ticket than what this will cost. Lighten up and have some fun."

That "logic" makes sense to you? What "fun" is there in sending money to a scam artist, even if it's only a few dollars? If that's fun for you, why don't you have yourself a grand old time and mail me as much money as you can afford? Unlike a chain letter operator, I'll level with you and tell you upfront that you'll never see your money again. That, of course, WOULD be legal as I would be making no promises I didn't intend to keep.

"Chain letter? I think not, as I'm just kindly asking people to let them be put on my mailing list is all."

Right, 'cause it's not as if that "mailing list" thing has been addressed on this thread many times, as recently as the last 72 hours. As everyone knows, if you repeat some nonsense enough, it automatically becomes FACT.

Since you're new to the party, Harold, I'll explain it AGAIN. The "mailing list" argument doesn't hold up in court. Courts have ruled on more than one occasion that if the INTENT is to operate a chain letter, simply calling it a "mailing list" does NOT make it legal. I would suggest that you read some of this thread before you post more things which have been covered already.

"Where are all these laws at? I've not a copy of them..how are individuals to know? How can one play by the rules if the rules are not given?"

That, too, has been covered more than once on this thread. The rules are most assuredly "given." If you go back and look, you'll find links in this very thread to the exact part of the U.S. Postal Service ("Post Office")'s web site which explains that chain letters are ILLEGAL.

By the way, have you honestly never heard the expression, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"? I thought every adult was familiar with that simple concept. If you find yourself in trouble for breaking the law, do you honestly think that claiming you didn't know what you did was illegal will get you off?
Harold
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 | 09:24 PM
Cranky Media Guy, Yep that was my first post to this site and this one will be my last. I've more to do than sit at a computer and have a pissing contest over something that really doesn't make a crap of a difference either way Ya look at it. To bad we all aren't perfect and never do anything wrong, ignorant or not. Only one man was ever on this earth was that way... My suggestion to you is that you get your ass up from the computer and get out in the world to a real life.....No pun intended and no reply desired.. Have a nice day !!!!!
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 | 12:46 AM
Harold said:

"Cranky Media Guy, Yep that was my first post to this site and this one will be my last."

Don't let the door hit you.

"I've more to do than sit at a computer and have a pissing contest over something that really doesn't make a crap of a difference either way Ya look at it."

Translation: "I thought I could come in here, say a bunch of things that aren't correct and not have anyone refute them."

"To bad we all aren't perfect and never do anything wrong, ignorant or not."

Straw man argument.

"Only one man was ever on this earth was that way."

Superman?

"My suggestion to you is that you get your ass up from the computer and get out in the world to a real life."

I LOVE how, to some people, if you know more than they do on a given subject, you must have "no life." How about YOU don't know what you're talking about?

"No pun intended and no reply desired."

I guess you didn't get your desire. Tough break, Dude.

"Have a nice day !!!!!"

You know, Harold, I almost think you didn't really mean that. Nah, that would be sarcasm.

Here's some free advice for you, Harold: If you plan on posting to this (or any other) forum, READ SOME OF IT BEFORE YOU MAKE YOURSELF LOOK STUPID BY REPEATING FALLACIES THAT HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED MANY TIMES BEFORE.

Have a nice day.
patsy
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 | 02:00 AM
sorry everyone, if anyone is out their.... But i don't think I'm coming back to this site anymore, This cranky old man is just pissing me off..i don't think theirs any useful information here...SORRY I EVEN POST A COMMENT IN HERE.....
see ya......
😖
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 | 04:19 AM
Patsy said:

"This cranky old man is just pissing me off..i don't think theirs any useful information here...SORRY I EVEN POST A COMMENT IN HERE....."

Translation: I desperately want to believe that money can magically multiply and this "old man" is using FACTS and LOGIC to prove that it can't, which upsets my fairy tale view of the world.

Um, do you honestly think that someone taking the time to explain to you factually and logically why chain letters CANNOT and DO NOT work isn't useful? Sorry for bursting your bubble by introducing REALITY into the discussion.

By the way, Patsy, how "old" am I? I mean, you wouldn't call someone something like that without actually knowing how old they ARE, right?
hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
 Member
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 | 07:26 AM
"Only one man was ever on this earth was that way."

Superman?


CMG, I think I love you...

😊
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 | 01:54 PM
Did it make you laugh, hcmomof4? That's the main thing.

Thanks for the compliment. 😊
whatsitmatter
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 | 03:30 PM
I hope everyone keeps sending out the letters so we can all make money and let cranky know
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 | 05:07 PM
whatsitmatter said:

"I hope everyone keeps sending out the letters so we can all make money and let cranky know"

Yes, by all means, everyone should lie to me by claiming that they made TONS of money from a chain letter. After all, it isn't about LOGIC or FACTS or simple MATH, it's about doing whatever you have to do to keep from having to confront unpleasant reality, even if that means lying to a stranger.

If it weren't for me asking how money which isn't invested in anything can magically multiply, it just WOULD because you BELIEVE it can. I'm SUCH a dream stealer.

I would humbly suggest that you defenders of chain letters thinking that this debate is about ME rather than about FACT, REASON and LOGIC is precisely why you are marks for scam artists.

I read a great quote for the first time last night: You can't reason someone out of a belief they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

In other words, when someone believes in something not because it makes sense but because they simply WANT to believe in it, FACTS and LOGIC will not convince them to change their minds. This thread is a perfect example of that principle.
The Darn Blister
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 | 01:36 AM
So you folks still think spending $6 in a gamble that can get you jailed for up to 30 and slapped with as much as a million dollars in Federal fines is a good bet?

See http://www.thirdamendment.com/mmf.html for the text of one of the major relevant laws.

You might (should) also take a look at http://www.keytlaw.com/FTC/Actions/ftc020212.htm for a reminder of just how many people the Feds DO go after a year for chain letters. In 2001 it was roughly two thousand five hundred individuals.
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 Note: This thread is located in the Old Forum of the Museum of Hoaxes.