The Museum of Hoaxes
A Postal-Mail Chain Letter?
Posted By:
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Nov 14, 2004
 I received this chain letter in my mailbox:

Dear Friend,
Greetings: I am a retired attorney. A few years ago a man came to me with a letter. He asked me to verify the fact that this was legal to do. I told him I would review it and get back to him. When I first red the letter my client brought me, I thought it was some "off-the-wall" idea to make money. A week and a half later we met in my office to discuss the issue. I told him the letter he originally brought me was not 100% legal. My client then asked me to later it to make it perfectly legal. I asked him to make one small change in the letter.

***
It goes on for another 2 pages about how if you send $1 to the 6 names on the list & you will make $800,000.00 in just 3 months. You pay for a list of names to send letters to. I KNOW this is a scam. I just can't figure out how I got it. It came to me at my married name (junk-mail tends to come to my maiden name), & it came to my actual house address. (My driver's license lists my PO Box & if you look me up at the DMV, the physical address is actually my prior residence...haven't had time to change it yet.) The phone & electric aren't registered in my name, they're registered to my husband. (There's not a water bill, we have a well.)

What I wanna know is: How did this come to me, with my correct name at my current physical address??? The 'person' who sent the letter is: Mr. Louis Jordan/1234 Shakespeare Avenue/Apt # 2E/Bronx, NY 10452

Also, a co-worker recently had someone slip this same letter under his door at his apartment building...Anyone hear anything about this??
Category: Scams; Replies: 1759

Comments
Page 18 of 30 pages ‹ First  < 16 17 18 19 20 >  Last ›
The Darn Blister
Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 | 06:08 PM
Alice... try looking up your own state's "Endless Chain Scheme" law.
Shane
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 | 10:56 PM
Jazz the scam has been around even longer. I saw it in a similar e-mail form in the late 90's and it was $5 then. So the whole thing goes up and down and evolves over time. Quite interesting I think, its almost like a Cancer. Oprah and 20/20 thing is funny though. There is no way that is true without even lokking it up. So that is another reason not to participate in this scam. You would be spreading lies and Propaganda right? Not you Jazz but people ya know. So I think maybe that is why this Forum String has been around for so long. Its almost similar to Nazi resistance. Almost too far but true in a few aspects.
dixie
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 | 12:08 PM
Holy shit my sister got the letter a used it...its been 3 weeks and she has recieved 687 dollars..one at a time....so finally I know that it works but I also know the law...im out
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 | 01:38 PM
Dixie said:

"Holy shit my sister got the letter a used it...its been 3 weeks and she has recieved 687 dollars..one at a time....so finally I know that it works but I also know the law"

Dixie, in order for a chain letter to "work," every participant would have to come out ahead. That is mathematically impossible.

What do you mean when you say "I also know the law"? Are you trying to claim that this chain letter is legal?
The Darn Blister
Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 | 10:07 PM
What country (or state) does said sister reside in, Dixie?

And is she of sound mind?
dixie
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 | 01:51 PM
Cranky said"Dixie, in order for a chain letter to "work," every participant would have to come out ahead. That is mathematically impossible.

What do you mean when you say "I also know the law"? Are you trying to claim that this chain letter is legal?

Not at all just the opposite..Ive been researching for 3 years and I know its illegal...I also know that it cant work for everyone but it does work for some unfortunately the other people do get burnt in the long run...You never know whether you will get lucky or get ripped...If you ask me it is definately not worth the trouble to find out...odds are that you would lose and probably go to jail but nonetheless my sis's bills got paid..
dixie
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 | 01:53 PM
Blister.....Im sorry but she is of sound mind..and I cant tell you where she lives...that would be snitchin. What I can tell you is that she recieved a little.
lienad
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 | 08:01 PM
I got the chain letter today.I'm a newly comer in USA and understand now what capitalism is about. I won't risk my few dollars on it. Sorry for the sender of the letter: a guy called clifford from Honolulu. I believe ''good'' wealth comes from hard work. I only wish all americans could just tear up these letters. That will spare our mailboxes from getting piled up with these useless scam mails.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 | 02:45 AM
For those of you who ask what the harm is in pyramid schemes and chain letters:

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/11/12/colombia-riots.html
Tha HBIC" Head Bitch In Charge"
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 | 12:04 AM
Cranky ...(dumb ass) you are really a fucking retard i never thought someone could really be as stupid as u... ta sit here and dialouge back and forth with otha people for almost 3 yrs lmao. who gives a shit people are gona do wateva they want reguardless whether u on here ten more years turning to a grumpy old man saying how this is a scam... thas america for u everything is a scheme Im currently in my 3rd year of law school and to answer everyones question YES it is illegal jus think of all the otha bs thas out there for corporate america to get your money...the lottery itself is a prime example ...for 1 person to win a powerball and how many people play millions....its a scam because only one person wins the jackpot and 30 -45 people get a portion of it... its a scam but the goverment made it so to them its not illegal.... to pay 20 to 30 thousand dollars a year for a college education when you can go to a community college for less and get the same degree your just paying for the college name so its look better on your resume,,, a scam but thats america ..thats should be illegal but its not because the goverment can do it.... heres the answer to everyones question coming from a soon to be Lawyer...if the goverment didnt make it up and a lightbulb goes off in your brain that you can maybe go to jail then its illegal! but if you wanna try it then im not hatin ... go for it lol its risky but good luck.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 | 03:46 AM
Head Bitch In Charge said:

"Im currently in my 3rd year of law school and to answer everyones question YES it is illegal jus think of all the otha bs thas out there for corporate america to get your money."

There are two possibilities here:

1: The standards at American law schools have dropped below those of the worst inner city high school in the country to have allowed you to get through 2 years.

2: You're full of shit.

I'm betting on Number 2.

If you had bothered to actually read any of this thread, you would have seen that you aren't the first person to compare an ILLEGAL chain letter to a LEGAL lottery. You would also have seen that that silly "argument" has been answered and refuted...more than once, I believe.

Care to tell us what law school you claim to be attending?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 | 01:52 PM
So, you're a "third year law student" who "lives in the hood" and who threatens people when he's challenged.

Just as I figured, you're full of shit.

We're on to you, "dawg." You can leave now.

Oh, and stop pretending to be black, OK? Racism isn't funny.
Shane
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 | 05:45 PM
Tha HBIC" Head Bitch In Charge"

"thats should be illegal but its not because the goverment can do it"

Congratulations on your third year in Law school. I dont think many courtrooms will respond very well to analogies that do not make sense. Your not getting the same degree from a community college as you would from say Harvard Law. Lets make a law against private hiring preference. Unrealistic and wrong.
And it has been said before, this is not like the lottery. You have a clear understanding of your odds with the lottery. So many other things can establish this point, just read the other Posts.
The Darn Blister
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 | 09:23 PM
Let's see what other illegal aspects you so blithely overlooked in that barely legible argument, HBIC.

1. Postal fraud.

2. False and misleading advertising claims.

3. Unlike lotteries, chain letters snowball out of control and cause considerable economic damage. See Denver, Colorado in 1935. Also see the recent riots in Columbia, and the civil war in Albania in 1996-7 (or was that '97-98?), both spawned by get rich quick programs related to chain letters.

4. With the rise of identity theft, chain letters increasingly endanger participants by giving away information to scammers to use against them. Join one online, and you've practically assured yourself of years of fending off Nigerians attempting advance fee fraud schemes.


Need I go on?
Shane
Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 | 03:10 PM
Dont forget the fact that a whole lot of people will potentially have your name and address. How do think they will feel when this scheme does not work out for them. There are a lot of crazies out there. Like HBIC for example he might get mad come to your house and bust a cap.
Shane
Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 | 10:23 PM
HBIC Said
"yo cranky who ever the fuck u r get a life dawg ...you seriously have no
life being on here everday....talkin all this shit bro come to the hood so
i can show u what we do wen people talk shit... bitch 1"

This is was the comment that Cranky was responding to. I can see why the administrator took it down. But showing it at least gives a little more context to others who are civil, and makes what Cranky said make sense.
Only Fair to show it I think, take it down again if you need too.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 | 12:53 AM
Thanks for explaining that, Shane. I hadn't known that the original comment was removed. Your comment serves to explain what I was responding to.
ElmaGolf
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 | 04:42 PM
Wow - 52 pages of this over what appears pretty clear.

It seems like Greg has gone away with his flaming and Dixie should hopefully follow suit soon. Dixie, the names you came up with were clever at first, but now you seem to only have one purpose in life, which is to get a rise out of Cranky. People who come to public forums simply to get a rise out of other posters are useless human beings on par with the scumbags who start these chain letter scams.

Cranky probably should have just ignored you, but you two are in some type of ridiculous, symbiotic S&M relationship. You like to get reactions out of people, and he likes to correct ridiculous statements. It's time that you go back to your troll hideaway.

Cranky - I appreciate your allegiance to logic and rational thought vs. "wishful thinking" - not sure I would have kept up the fight for this long. It seems a little obsessive - but people keep asking about this or coming up with new rationalizations.
ElmaGolf
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 | 05:18 PM
My observations on the arguments (for what they're worth):

Some of the arguments made for this letter are a wonderful case study in false dichotomies, strained analogies, ratinalizations and in many cases - misplaced anger (seems like years ago I first read how sending this letter out was justifed by the fact that insurance costs are skyrocketing).


There seems to be a big disconnect between people who want to argue whether some actions ARE Illegal or whether the SHOULD be Illegal. I'm not a "Rules Absolutist" who thinks the "letter of the law" is the end of the story. There are plenty of laws that exist with no real basis in logic or seem pretty arbitrary (e.g. Tobacco Leaves are Legal / Marijuana Leaves are Illegal). I'm interested in the reason behind these rules. In this case, it seems like the big issue is the "fraud" behind these letters and the failure to disclose the "gambling" nature of taking part in these schemes. Who knows - if one of these letters was completely honest and disclosed the risks, perhaps they may be allowed. If the letters said "you're gambling" and the only people who get ahead are at the expense of other people, you could maybe make the argument that it SHOULD be legal.

But that's simply not the case - these letters are designed to mislead you and provide a sense that it's a "victimless" crime, as if everyone wins.

If you want to make an argument whether the Postal Service Laws should be changed to allow these things, you can try. But since these rules have some reasonable basis (protection from fraudulent representation about the true nature of the scheme), you'd have a hard time convincing any reasonable person who's not motivated by self-interest at the expense of others.


As to whether it IS ILLEGAL, I think the Postal Regs shown, combined with the opinion letters from various State Attorneys General make it pretty clear that these letters are just what the Regulators had in mind. People can make all the justifications they want, but these letters pretty much fit the fact patterns in the Regulations.

People are trying to make the distinction of "obtaining a service" - which is pretty much a bogus attempt to conceal the nature of this. Can someone please explain to me how "getting put ON a mailing list" is a service to me? If anything, I'd probably pay $1 to be taken OFF some mailing lists. It seems to me that you should be "paying" $1 to compile a mailing list, which is the exact opposite of this little "rationalization."

I think we can safely assume that these are likely illegal to take part in. Does it mean you will get convicted? Not likely, because these types of things are impossible to track down (but as someone posted many pages ago - if you are successful, you're more likely to get watched and made an example of). Regardless, whether you're going to get caught or not doesn't change the fact that these things ARE illegal.

(continued)
ElmaGolf
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 | 05:19 PM
(continued)

But even taking the "legality" issue out of this, there is still the issue of whether this works. Of course it "can" work for some people, but only at other peoples' expense (it truly is a "zero sum" game).

If you are truly motivated solely by your own self interest, you probably want to ignore this simple mathematical fact and "fantasize" that your winnings didn't come at someone else's expense. Selfishness is the only reason that I can come up with for people who want to delude themselves that it is not a "zero sum game."

I received this letter today and was compelled to give it a try (I only had $6 and some time to lose). But when I contemplated that the only way I could make a profit was if someone else got screwed, it was a pretty easy decision (and that was even before I knew it was actually against the law as well).

So to all you people here who are rationalizing and want to here "success stories" - you need to realize there is an equal number of "failures." You may even claim that you may be justified because you are in a desparate situation - just realize that any success you have likely came at the expense of someone who was just as desparate.

If you came here looking for an enabler to tell you "it's alright" and "no one gets hurt", sorry to disappoint. But now that you've been here and really know how these things work, it would make your decision even more willfully selfish to take part in these schemes.
Deb
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 | 07:11 PM
I just received this letter a couple days ago and seriously considered doing it due to the recent economy -who couldn't use $71K?. But, the old saying - "if it is too good to be true ..." thanks to doing some research, I realize that I would be spending more money that I really don't have and it is illegal (which I did not know).
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 | 01:02 AM
ElmaGolf said:

"Cranky - I appreciate your allegiance to logic and rational thought vs. wishful thinking' - not sure I would have kept up the fight for this long. It seems a little obsessive - but people keep asking about this or coming up with new rationalizations."

Eh, it may be "a little obsessive" but it doesn't require the kind of time commitment that people seem to assume it does. A few minutes here, a few minutes there, really.

Like I've said before, scams like chain letters pick up steam in times of financial difficulty. Those are, of course, the times when people can least afford to lose money to a scam so if I can help even a few people avoid that, I figure it's worth it.

"If you are truly motivated solely by your own self interest, you probably want to ignore this simple mathematical fact and 'fantasize' that your winnings didn't come at someone else's expense. Selfishness is the only reason that I can come up with for people who want to delude themselves that it is not a 'zero sum game.'

Correct-a-mundo. I think you've put your finger on it. People want to talk themselves into the idea that the money isn't simply coming from other people's pockets. Anyone with a two-digit IQ can figure out that it MUST, of course, but the average person wants to believe that he/she isn't evil, so they rationalize.

Deb said:

"[T]hanks to doing some research, I realize that I would be spending more money that I really don't have and it is illegal (which I did not know)."

Glad we could help, Deb. So, what was I saying about it being worth the effort if it helps even a few people?
Barack Obama
Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 | 10:56 PM
hey cranky and hey person in hell, SHUT THE FUCK UP! YOU FUCKING GOODY TWO-SHOES-OBEY-EVERY-FUCKING-LAW-THERE-IS PRICKS!!!
AAAAAAHHHHHHH! YOU GUYS DISGUST ME!
WHY THE FUCK DO YOU GIVE A DAMN IF SOME PEOPLE YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW BREAK THE ALL-KOWING, ALL-PERFECT GOVERNMENT LAWS?

"don't tell me not to fly I've simply got to, if someone takes a spill, its me, and not you, don't bring a cloud to rain on my parade"
thank you bobby darin.

all this fucking is people giving other people money. its very similar to cash gifting, which is also legal. when the money flows, so does the economy.

weed's illegal too, you wanna discuss the awful consequences of that too?

besides, its just money, FACK!
"...and I'll go on losing millions, its just what I do" -Howard Hughes
Shane
Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 | 11:51 PM
"Men with the muckrake are often indispensable to the well-being of society, but only if they know when to stop raking the muck." "An epidemic in indiscriminate assault upon character does not good, but very great harm." "There should be relentless exposure of and attack upon every evil practice, whether in politics, in business, or in social life. I hail as a benefactor every writer or speaker, every man who, on the platform, or in book, magazine or newspaper, with merciless severity makes such attack, provided always that he in his turn remembers that the attack is of use only if it is absolutely truthful."

Theodore Roosevelt Washington, DC, April 14, 1906


Look I can quote people Too.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 | 12:19 AM
"all this fucking is people giving other people money. its very similar to cash gifting, which is also legal."

Oh, I LOVE it when people post here without bothering to read any of the rest of the thread. No, it's NOT "similar to cash gifting."

Chain letters are LIES because the premise is that every participant can come out ahead, which is mathematically impossible (as has been explained in detail over and over in this thread).

There are only two kinds of people who would try to claim that chain letters are legal and can work: the very stupid and those who profit by operating them illegally. Which are you?

"when the money flows, so does the economy."

So, I guess bank robbery should be legal, right? I mean, it makes "money flow" too.
Barack Obama
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 | 04:24 AM
I operate them illegally, 😊

Cranky Media Guy, what do you do for a living?
Shane
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 | 04:23 PM
We need to steer clear of this poverty of ambition, where people want to drive fancy cars and wear nice clothes and live in nice apartments but don't want to work hard to accomplish these things.

Barack Obama


Just thought I would throw that one in too. If you think Barack Obama is reflecting a message of easy money, without hard work, then you are wrong. Hes not as much of a Socialist as people think. Spreading knowledge and oppurtunity he does profess. But also keeping jobs in the United States is a more Important goal. Jobs take skill, and work. Pyramid Schemes are unrealistic and can cost you money. Read all of the other post and understand the risk Factors. Nobody is going to stop you from participating in this scheme, this is only an educational Forum. Yet when you make ignorant Posts, you Make Cranky Mad. Because it means either A, you did not read previous threads, or B, your IQ is too low to comprehend. Dont bring old arguments back to the table.
Shane
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 | 05:50 PM
As far as work for a living, well I would guess that Cranky is a conservative talk show radio host that is independent, and clings to Libertarian ideals. Some of that is guess work, and some not. I read the previous posts. But then again I may be wrong.
Shane
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 | 05:56 PM
Oh and dont call yourself Barack Obama it makes it very difficult to address your posts without making it sound like we are insulting P. Obama, Dont be a Tool.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 | 06:12 PM
Shane said:

"As far as work for a living, well I would guess that Cranky is a conservative talk show radio host that is independent, and clings to Libertarian ideals."

Well, you're semi-right. I have worked as a radio talk show host, but not a conservative one.

These days, I'm out of the radio business (as are most of the people who used to be employed by it).
Shane
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 | 07:20 PM
Well Cranky I can only guess and analyze so far. I
Shane
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 | 11:16 PM
One question though Cranky Sean Hannity Claims that he is not conservative but independnt. You were not in that realm were you? Or Glenn Beck? Well I happen to like him but still. Well I liked Glenn Beck a lot more when he was radio. but anyway you know what Im talking about. Could you alaborate a little on what type of radio you were involved in? Im interested, and I do believe others are as well.
The Darn Blister
Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 | 08:13 PM
Cash gifting is far from legal. Try actually reading something other than groupthink trades and you rapidly find out that the claims gifters make to "legalize" what they do are bogus, with numerous laws unrelated to the subjects they focus on actually outlawing the practice.

Oh, and by the way, if you encounter a nut who tells you that Congress declared cash gifting to be an act of treason, slap him for me. It's a felony investment fraud, not treason, and he's as screwed up in the head as the gifters are.
Shane
Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 | 10:37 PM
You need to define Cash gifting in context. No its not Illegal to cash gift. However depending on the context. You can give up to a certain amount depending on what to state you live in. Whether its to a loved one, relative, or friend before it is taxed. In Mass I beleive it is 3 thousand dollars. Im speaking from experience. Anyway Cah gifting is not illegal in that context. If I want to give a certain amount of money in an un-taxable thresh-hold to someone as a gift it is perfectly legal and right. I dont know what you are talking about Blister.
Shane
Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 | 11:29 PM
Oh and BTW its wrong for the government to Tax "Cash Gifting" Or transfer of funds in my opinion. It makes sense in a lot of ways because of what they are trying to prevent. But all the money I make and any legacy I may have has been Taxed to hell as it is. If I want to leave anything behind for a Loved one to have, they are double Taxing the same Money and its not right. I understand prevention of investment fraud, but what about unjust taxation. Dont defend the Federal Goverment because in many way they are unjust and inperfect. Blister you sound like an IRS agent.
The Darn Blister
Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 | 02:06 AM
I wasn't talking about taxes, Shane. I was talking about fraud, such as the securities laws that cash gifting violates. I was talking about the profit motive that invalidates the gift tax "loophole" the gifting programs harp on and on about (see the Supreme Court ruling Lucas v Alexander (1929)). I was talking about the laws in state after state that make cash gifting a crime by that state's laws. In Colorado the limit is $50 before a gifting system gets classified as a pyramid scheme.

Do you want me to show you like I showed Dixie why chain letters were illegal back on page 40, with a list of serious judicial links?


Here, have a few...

Michigan
http://www.mason.mi.us/police/101708-CashGiftingSchemes.pdf
Attorney General calling the pig a pig and defining what the crime is.

North Carolina
http://www.ncdoj.com/DocumentStreamerClient?directory=CPTipAlert/&file=Pyramid Schemes.pdf
The definition of a pyramid scheme: "Under North Carolina law, a pyramid scheme is any plan in which a participant (1) pays money (2) for the chance to receive money (3) upon the introduction of new participants into the program."

Nebraska
http://www.ncpa.ne.gov/ctopinio/S96-1120.htm
You want to argue against THAT court?

New Jersey
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-23209853.html
http://www.state.nj.us/oag/ca/press/pyramid.htm
Eek, gifting clubs get nailed by the police here even before they even launch, some of the time.

Texas
http://www.14thcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=83666
http://www.spiritwatch.org/fireponzi.htm
Church of Cash Gifting. Felony conviction of leader. Nuff said.

California
http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=40980&page=3
School for cash gifters meets a BBC reporter. Who turned them in for threatening his life.

Florida
http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0008/ET15-6156.html
Cash gifters discover that state lines are serious legal trouble. Just like when shipping controlled drugs in tiny balloons in your stomach.

Virgin Islands
http://www.vid.uscourts.gov/territorial/06sc0016.pdf
Gifting statements torn to bits by a judge with an explanation of why they are legally invalid.
Shane
Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 | 07:01 PM
We are not on the same page at all. Im not talking about Cash gifting as an organized scheme. Nor am I trying to legitimize Pyramid Schemes or Fraud. Im Simply saying that its not right to tax, or control legitamate personal cash gifts. Hypothetically I loan 4K to my sister. That would be technically illegal if a share of it was not paid to Uncle Sam. But that money has already been taxed, because I earned it legally, and I pay my federal income taxes. Do you honestly only think in a Linear fashion Blister. Not every instance can be treated that way. The Federal Government is perfectly fine with cash gifting as long as they get a chunk of the change. Im not talking about Pyramid Schemes, or cash gifting schemes. Yes a loophole could very well be taken advantage of, and certain acts need to be more well defined in the eyes of the law. But a line needs to drawn as to what laws are actually protecting the interest of the people.
Anyway posting a bunch of links is not necessary. I see that you are very resourceful, but not every situation is so black and white as you put it.
The Darn Blister
Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 | 11:24 PM
Loaning 4k to your sister is fine in my book. That isn't what "cash gifting" brings to mind these days, however.

And no, it's not an American-specific thing. You'll find similar laws all over the world - recall the recent riots in Columbia, the Isle of Wight financial fiasco around 2000-2001, and the civil war in Albania in the late 1990s.
Shane
Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 | 11:59 PM
What is fine in your book is irrelevant Blister unless you are a united states Congressman. You are missing the point a double standard cannot be held. There is corruption and special interest on both sides. The Isle of White Festival? The only information I can find on that is about a poorly planned Hippie Festival in the 70's. Sure its a testament of how Communes and socialism cannot work. Free Tickets cannot make a profit. Anyway my whole point is that Cash gifting laws are poorly defined on a state and federal basis. Which also gives criminals leeway to extort
them. That is my point. If you do not agree that
The Darn Blister
Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 | 03:34 PM
Isle of _Wight_. It's in the United Kingdom, and was the center of the Women Empowering Women clubs in that nation after a minor baroness imported the cash gifting concept from the United States.

Those events were instrumental in causing Gambling Act 2005 to be written into the UK's laws. You might want to read section 43 of that law. It's interesting in how they defined gifting.
Shane
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 | 12:26 AM
WTF Blister maybe I ate too much turkey. I think so!
Shane
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 | 03:40 PM
Yippie I got another one of these letters in the mail today. Im a lucky Dawg.
Athena D
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 | 12:59 PM
The only person making any money here is the guy selling the mailing lists... Probably the same person who started the chain....45 bucks every time one of us tries this scam out...Can you imagine receiving 800 000 letters to you home over the next three months? 1000's of letter a day?
un huh. I admit it had me hopeful for a sec. but with most things that are too good to be true, it is.
KarenESP
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 | 07:32 AM
Hi Guys. What an interesting discussion. I appreciate all of it.

I got the letter couple of days ago. I have a BA from an accredited University so I have some education.

I've never had one before ever, a letter like this.

I dont expect to make 800K and realize I might be lucky to recoup my investment... but it sounds like fun! I think other ppl who see the letter will probably think what I think about it... hoping they would make something but knowing they may not.

What annoys me is this: I am not be given the right to make my own choice about it.

The postal statute is ambiguous and does not spell out this exact letter to be illegal... "and other schemes".. what does that mean? If they decide its a scheme, then it is? The postal statute doesn't even say "chain letter."

The postal inspectors websites gives an example of a person at the top of the list receiving $5, and the other names on the list recieving nothing UNTIL they make it to the top. But this is not a statute or a regulation, it is merely an example given, not this particular example, although it does mention, being added to a mailing list is not viewed in their opinion as a viable 'service.'

This annoys me. My feeling is a happy one of the people on my list and I would like to send them thier dollar and hope they do well. I feel happy they worked together to eventually send me this fun letter.

I am unhappy that in my opinion, it is too closely linked to the Postal Inspectors website "example" for me to feel that it would certainly be illegal in thier opinion.

I would never turn my letter in to the post office because I am hoping the ppl who sent it to me make something. I like them. It's cool how my people are from so many different states, all over.

The following statutes cited deal with the illegality of using a fake name / address. If I were to participate, I wouldnt do that so those statutes dont apply to me. (the example being that all six names on the list are one person having all six dollars forwarded to themselves from different addresses.)

I've also seen the exponential effect of eventually running out of "new recruits" because there aren't enough ppl in the world to fullfill this for everyone... but I am also aware that most ppl will throw it in the trash on site and that this example is unfeasible due to this basic fact. Plus who is to say you cant get the letter several times, send the senders their dollar and send it on again. I think this is the purpose of the "mailing list." So you can eventually resend it to those who were game before in hopes of a repeat. Or you can sell this valuable mailing list to people with other similar types of letters which is apparently legal according to the fact that a mailing list company's name is given. I think it would be fun to call the co.'s 800# and say "I got 'the letter' and I need a mailing list with 200 names." Just to see what they say.

Plus, my letter's estimate for postage, paper envelopes and yada yada was $211.00.

My point is, I see that it could fail, therefore it is not a 'scam' in my opinion, I'd be taking my chances on it. But for me, this sounds like fun and does sound like "friends helping friends" and I just want the CHOICE to do it or not.

That's how I feel about the whole thing. Didn't find any mention on Oprah or 20/20, but guess what, didnt expect it.

I like the post bout the guy getting 400K but wouldnt bet my life on it. I liked all the posts where anyone said they made more than expenses. I wish I had the right to do it.
KarenESP
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 | 07:56 AM
As a sum up, after reading my own post and spending a ridiculous amount of time searching the web for info on the letter.... PO info., laws, stories, evidence of prosecution, etc etc etc....

I think you are paying for a viable service... you are paying for "fun." It's fun to swim in the ocean, it's fun to go to a carnival.. it's fun to go to the movies....

You are paying for fun. The carnival is ridiculously expensive, so are the movies, so is a trip to the beach anymore.. fun is expensive. If this letter sounds like fun to you, you are going to have to pay to participate. Then one decides whether or not to risk the amount of money involved.

Ok, so you want to save money on your investment in fun- anybody notice the post where the person recieved his letter slipped under his door? Not that this is legal should the letter be illegal per the Postal Inspectors - because the mailing instructions remain plus you have to send the dollars in the mail... but - wella, there's no envelopes, no postage.. you just have the paper copy costs and your time running around passing these things out like flyers instead.

I beleive that the cost of participating is paying the fun of it.

Could you be a fool and not recieve anything back, ever? Of course you could. Could you invest your cash in a well known company relying on historic financial data only to have that company fold next year, of course you could!

I think it is far to over zealous of people to believe that they are the only smart ones who realize nothing could be made. I think most everybody realizes nothing could be made.

If it did not appear to be illegal according to my research, I still don't know if I would spend my $211 on this because now I've seen so many blogs and posts with people telling me they have recieved more than one letter that my chances of getting anything back on 200 look slimmer.

But I think we each have a brain and even if we are financially hard pressed, we still understand that people who get the letters have to make the choice as to participate or not, therefore any estimate given relies on that and are still mentally capable of doing that math in thier head.... 0 X 0 = nothing.

Exactly who are we protecting? There really aren't many idiots out there.
hcmomof4
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 | 12:54 PM
KarenESP said,"Exactly who are we protecting? There really aren't many idiots out there."

Uh... research the Nigerian Mail Scam. Plenty of people still fall for it.
KarenESP
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 | 01:00 PM
Thank you for your response HCMOMOF4!

This is wild because my friend and I are batting emails back in forth over the above topic and just TODAY, by coincidence... she said some lady was just swindle out of 400,000 last week over one of those. Which I thought was unbelievable as long as those have been around.. I told her I am really surprised that anyone wealthy enough to have a computer and online service (much less 400K) would fall for something like that!

She told me yes there are idiots and that's why we have these laws.

My question back to her which she did not answer was - is there a law to protect against these Nigerian Mail Scams... and if so - did the woman participate knowingly against the law or was she unaware of the law when she participated?

Just curious. Again, thank you for your response, what a coincidence! Actually it is my best friend I was chatting with and she works at Homeland Security in DC.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 | 06:07 PM
KarenESP said:

"As a sum up, after reading my own post and spending a ridiculous amount of time searching the web for info on the letter.... PO info., laws, stories, evidence of prosecution, etc etc etc....

"I think you are paying for a viable service..."

Except the LAW says it ISN'T a "viable service."

Did your research include reading this thread, especially the parts where the exact law regarding chain letters was quoted...more than once in fact?

In my opinion, people do not participate in chain letters for "fun." They participate in them because they don't think through the math involved (or because they aren't that astute in math) and they believe they will make a lot of money by participating.

Chain letters are illegal because simple arithmetic proves that the claims made on their behalf are impossible.

The big problem with the Nigerian scam is, of course, that the perpetrators are overseas where U.S. law doesn't apply.
KarenESP
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 | 06:57 PM
Hi Cranky and thanks for your reply!!

Well, I did not read the entire thread here, very long. I read through plenty of blogs and threads elsewhere and looked at plenty of links.

Perhaps I should explain: It appears from what I did see, that this chain letter is illegal. I am not arguing that. I worked as a legislative auditor for five years which dealt with comparing statues and regulations to the actions of govmt. agencies who are supposed to be following those. I am in agreement with the illegality.

I am venting my feelings about the fact that I would like to try the chain letter because I personally feel it would be fun. I like to send letters, I like to get letters, I like the idea of multilevel marketing, Im a people person - just appeals to my particular personality individually speaking. continued
KarenESP
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 | 07:17 PM
Not only am I annoyed that I can't try out the letter because it is illegal, quite honestly, I am continually annoyed by those who continue to point out that it is illegal.

Venting those feelings; it was illegal for the Colonists to revolt against Great Britain but we did it anyway.

So many ppl are ordering drugs online from Canadian pharmacies, which is ILLEGAL, that there is legislation pending now that would actually legalize it.

No I dont expect ppl to get up in arms to legalize chain letters, heh heh... but I make those points to vent my feelings so I can wash the whole thing out of my brain, hopefully soon and get over myself.

I also feel that the statute I did personally read... was ambiguous and open to whatever interpretation the Postal Inspectors decided to rule.. which is quite a strong use of power, similar to the IRS. (wink - mind you, only venting what has come to mind)

And as far as paying taxes on illegal money - noted that here somewhere/maybe in 'the letter'.. tax rate on $800,000 would be more like 50%, not 30 %. So long as you payed your taxes on dollars recieved, even if they were illegal, you would stay out of trouble with the IRS as an agency. Maybe not other govmt. agencies however. The gansters and mobsters were incarcerated on tax fraud moreso then anything else because their crimes were harder to prove. There's that thought.

You can tell me what you would partipate in a chain letter for, your motivation, and of course why you think others would participate based on your life perspective, your personality type. But I am entitled to state my motivation for it as well and the way I see it. For Fun. Do not believe 800K is coming my way for my participation.

I feel there is sour grapes here. For Example:

IF IT WERE LEGAL - hypothetical....

If the letter said you'd get 800K and you got 200K, would you be happy cause I would. I certainly wouldnt be pissed off by any means.

If the letter said you'd get 800K and you got 200K, and you got 200 bucks, would you be happy because I would be.

If I broke even, I would be happy that I at least tried it to find out, to satisfy my own curiosity, whether the REAL world at a given point in time, due to whatever unknown saturation level exists... how well it worked -or not.

And I just dont think ppl are stupid. I think they know. Plus it is only an estimate. There is nothing in the letter that says... all will participate... the retired dude supposedly wrote up his scenerios giving his supposed success rates and guess what - I dont believe that dude exists. No attorney would admit to such things even though his name is not given.

You cannot convince me that ppl are stupid on this matter. Maybe you have been too tuned into the illegalities of it all and not listening to the personal accounts and the emotional signals left by those who have told their accounts and experiences.

Guess I dont like it being insinuated that I wouldn't participate for FUN (if it were LEGAL) as I have stated HONESTLY here... but rather than I really think on sending out 200 letters I will reap 800K... in one dollar bills, letter by letter... and called to the post office and bring a straight truck so that I can hump all the mail back to my little house and fill it full with no way to walk, etc.

Just venting my friend and thanks for the opportunity to allow me to do more of it as your post did certainly provide. (;
Danny
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 | 09:50 PM
hey karen!!

just so you know im 16 and i live in california and i resived this letter 2 days ago and i have been thinking on it and by the way you write it seems that you are a honest person. to get things clear this letter is illegal right?? just to double check 😊 and i have a question for you

Are you going to try this?? (just for fun) :D

i was thinking on it and i came across this and i belive that you did your homework as i was trying to do but i still think you know maybe there are some people who just might want to give money to some people(like me who need money) But i only think thell do it out of heart but those to questions i just have for you if you can respond that would greatly be appreciated :D thanks!! :D
Shane
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 | 09:54 PM
KarenESP Says
in eastern seaboard
"So many ppl are ordering drugs online from Canadian pharmacies, which is ILLEGAL, that there is legislation pending now that would actually legalize it."


If this scam were legal it would be more likely not to work.

Here is part a repost of mine. Please read.



It
KarenESP
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 | 04:44 AM
Hi Danny from Califonia!!

Thanks for your response!

Like I mentioned I worked as an Auditor for the General Assembly of my state and had five years experience reading the law and making sure the agencies I audited were in compliance.. making sure they were doing what they were supposed to be doing with the money they recieved from the state funds to operate. I even got to audit our State's lottery agency, which was pretty darn interesting!!

In addition, I had four courses of business law while I was in college. I have a cousin who is an attorney and another cousin who is a judge out in Arizona. I have a knack for the law.

From what I saw, I'd have to agree with Crabby and the others that the Postal Inspectors Office, these are like the police and detectives of the Post Office, would inform you if you asked them that this is a chain letter... it would be considered a form of a "lottery" in thier opinion... and that means it is illegal in thier opinion because it violates a section of thier law which deals with lotteries being played through the mail.

I haven't read my State's laws on the subject which probably make 'the letter' illegal too because I saw plenty enough in the postal statutes and on the Postal Inspectors website to answer my own question.

I won't be sending out the letter although I admit it seems like fun. If I did send out the letter, I wouldn't expect $800,000, I think after seeing what so many others have written, I'd be lucky to get the money back that I put in to mailing them.

If it were legal and I had $211.00 that I could dedicate to entertainment without hurting my budget, I would like to try it just to see what would happen.

The poor lady who did it and only found out afterwards it isn't legal - she doesn't have to worry so much from what I read because I found an article where the Postal Inspectors were interviewed about this letter and one inspector said that they don't prosecute cases where a dollar is involved.. they usually prosecute mail lotteries with much more money involved. I feel bad she went through that stress but I know the letters she mailed are most likely safely in their respective recycling bins by now. She's cool. If you read her post, she also didn't make a cent, didn't even make the money back she put out to mail her letters.

I know how tough it is to be 16 and what you get paid and my heart goes out to you. I wish it were legal and your name was on the letter I was sent so I could send you your dollar and wish you well. Good luck buddy! Keep your head up and keep looking for opportunity!!!

Good luck, Karen
KarenESP
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 | 04:54 AM
Dear Shane....

Your correct, according to what I read in the experiences of others... it appears to be SATURATED... which I was pointing out in my example.

BUT- you're forgetting... the luck of the Irish remains in the hearts and minds of people... Guess what.. Amway's still around. BUT! They have changed their name to something else. Still around, everybody's heard of it, in my age group, everybody's been subjected to the drawing of the circles... sigh.... (Im 45)....

BUT-people still sign up! Lines still form! When I was young, I was in that TWICE. Signed up twice.

Everybody I talked to - had HEARD OF IT. Completely saturated.. yet there were still ppl at the meeting making the new pins!

If it were LEGAL....

I would have one of my spanish friends translate it. Then the front would be English, the back of each page in Spanish.

Next the company for the mailing labels.. would be ME. You can print those off the property tax records directly onto self stick labels (learned from ten years in Real Estate).... of course offering a much reduced price for them...

So then I'd get to try the letter, which the benefit of a spanish translation (probably not the first to think of this, might be out there already) and hope to get 'label bus' as well.

BUT, alas, tis illegal.

Thanks for your response Shane.

Always loved that name, Shane. Only met one my whole life but thought that name was great.
KarenESP
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 | 05:37 AM
Dear Danny,

I wrote you a post above, this is my second one to you.

Since you are a youngster, I want to make myself absolutely clear. I have a 27 year old son and a ten year old son.

Even though it is unlikely that you would get in trouble for mailing out 'the letter' to others... it's not worth the risk of you getting into trouble even just a little bit over it. There is a very high probability you will make nothing and loose all of your money, which at 16, is a lot or make such a little amount it wouldn't be worth your time even at your age and earning level.

As an auditor, I've seen people go down for fraud and I've taken people down for fraud. This would be a form of mail fraud.

At your age I could understand if you went to the sections of the code noted in 'the letter' and read them, you would easily conclude that 'the letter' you recieved does not fit it. So Im telling you what I know from years of dealing with the law, knowing how government agencies work and so forth, that yes honey, it is illegal.

But - I will send you $20 in the mail for your promise NOT to try sending 'the letter' out. How about that? Now just in case I get 10 letters from ppl pretending to be you, you send a letter to my address with a password you pick in it.

After I get the letter with your password... I'll come back here and ask you for your password and then you tell me. So long as it matches I will send the 20 bucks back to you. There, that sounds like fun to me. And it will be more than what you would have made from sending out the letter.

The letter, if it were legal, is for people who have 200 bucks laying around that it does not hurt them to spend. K?

so email me and I'll give you my snail mail
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

If everyone in the US sent out the letter, and everyone went along with it.. and then the letter began moving out to other Countries.. and there were enough ppl in the world so that everyone in the US would make $800,000... guess what would happen? Everybody would have an extra 800,000 and prices would go up in the US tremendously, huge inflation... then we would all be back in our same poor boats pretty quick. This is economics - its too many apples (dollars) chasing a relatively fixed amount of oranges (stuff to buy, services offered by ppl etc.)

Eventually, the ppl in the other Countries wouldn't be able to make their money because they would run out of ppl to collect from, and this wouldnt be nice.

The reason I thought it would be fun to do is because most everyone does NOT follow up on the letter. Those that do, a great portion cheat, mostly by sending it out but not paying the six people a dollar on thier list.

The reason some ppl make some money is because they get lucky. They wind up with a line of ppl below them or two lines, that go on for a while. Those ppl are very lucky indeed which is why the Postal Inspectors consider 'the letter' a type of lottery and why it violates thier section of the law dealing with mail lotteries.

I know it is annoying not to get to try it because it is illegal, but that's why I posted here to vent my feelings so I can come back to my good senses and forget about it.

Yes I still wish it was legal so I could try it even after all of this venting.
Danny
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 | 03:22 PM
:-) Karen

I would like to thank you so much indeed for replying back i was a little sceptical but im ok now i thank you a lot im just gonna stick my head back in the books and try to make a difference i hope it turns out good.
Well thanks a lot for that that would be fun haha :D i would like to have a pen pal !:D from acrross the country who knows all this stuff. ok well my email is .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) i will surley whrite to you as soon as possible. Thanks a lot.
:coolsmile:
jerry nates
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 | 06:18 PM
I`m up to $72,000 and in my 9th week so I don`t know what all of you are talking about it`s working for me very well and 7 of my closes friends that are participating also. If you get the right people who want to try this also it moves pretty smooth. When I first started it took 3 weeks to get my first letter now I give the 2 neighbor children $20 each to open letters for a couple hours after the mail arrives each day they now have their parents participating . The key is find the right people who are interested in making money and mail them the letters not the negative critics who don`t care if you`ve had to struggle to meet ends just to put food on the table and feed your family each week. So I say the small amount i`ve invested has been worth the small fortune i`m now collectig. So you decide on who you want to listen too i`m going to continue what i`m doing and I also give to the local charity if you are going receive you need to give to keep the balance!
Delaina
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 | 06:38 PM
Hi I also have had good luck with receiving letters its true if you mail to the right people you get a good response getting letters back. I have not received as much as the previous note but I have got alot green for my trouble and it keeps coming in daly!
Shane
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 | 07:41 PM
jerry nates Says

"So you decide on who you want to listen too i`m going to continue what i`m doing and I also give to the local charity if you are going receive you need to give to keep the balance!"


Propaganda, he already sent out his letters and knows that people who get them will most likely come to this site. Whatever, believe what what you want.

Oh and the kids are involved too, the neighbor kids. More Propaganda

oh and

"critics who don`t care if you`ve had to struggle to meet ends just to put food on the table and feed your family each week."

More Propaganda

Man Jerry I feel bad for you if you had to choose between investing in this scam and feeding your family. Dont try to draw other people in that may actually desperate. Dont spread lies and propaganda either.
The Darn Blister
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 | 10:04 PM
Jerry... do you realize that you just publically confessed to having committed a 3rd degree felony and deliberately having hired child labor to aid and abet in that felony?

Go read page 40 of this very thread.
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