The Museum of Hoaxes
A Postal-Mail Chain Letter?
Posted By:
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Nov 14, 2004
 I received this chain letter in my mailbox:

Dear Friend,
Greetings: I am a retired attorney. A few years ago a man came to me with a letter. He asked me to verify the fact that this was legal to do. I told him I would review it and get back to him. When I first red the letter my client brought me, I thought it was some "off-the-wall" idea to make money. A week and a half later we met in my office to discuss the issue. I told him the letter he originally brought me was not 100% legal. My client then asked me to later it to make it perfectly legal. I asked him to make one small change in the letter.

***
It goes on for another 2 pages about how if you send $1 to the 6 names on the list & you will make $800,000.00 in just 3 months. You pay for a list of names to send letters to. I KNOW this is a scam. I just can't figure out how I got it. It came to me at my married name (junk-mail tends to come to my maiden name), & it came to my actual house address. (My driver's license lists my PO Box & if you look me up at the DMV, the physical address is actually my prior residence...haven't had time to change it yet.) The phone & electric aren't registered in my name, they're registered to my husband. (There's not a water bill, we have a well.)

What I wanna know is: How did this come to me, with my correct name at my current physical address??? The 'person' who sent the letter is: Mr. Louis Jordan/1234 Shakespeare Avenue/Apt # 2E/Bronx, NY 10452

Also, a co-worker recently had someone slip this same letter under his door at his apartment building...Anyone hear anything about this??
Category: Scams; Replies: 1759

Comments
Page 20 of 30 pages ‹ First  < 18 19 20 21 22 >  Last ›
KarenESP
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 08:31 AM
Hmmm...

Social Responsibility Eh? We just had on our election ticket a potential law where more gambling will be allowed (slots) and to the public it was shown that most of the proceeds would go to education.

Practically everybody voted for it. Then when the election was over, there was an announcement in a newletter I recieved that said... so much would go to this and that, inluding, about 17% to re-do the racetrack. The racetrack???

Whats socially responsible about that? Then I figured, ok big bucks racetrack lobbyists came in and worked this out with the Legislature. Probably tried to claim they are paying out such great purses that's there's no funding from thier earnings to re-do the track. So why would the Legislature help them? Then I figured it out, just like liquor and cig taxes that go to the state, there are probably a significant portion of racetrack earnings that go to the state.

So even though the racetrack is not a socially responsible place, like say for example SCHOOLS, the state agreed to give them what they wanted hoping that the updated racktrack would keep gambling rolling right along and the state collecting its share of that.

Is THAT anymore socially responsible than the chain letter? PLUS - they LIED on the ticket because this rather abnoxious minor detail was not revealed to the general voting population on the ticket.

Savvy?
Cranky's Partner
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 08:43 AM
Call me what you will, I have yet to resort to name calling in this forum while trying to make my point(s), even though some people need a good reaming. Sarcasm sometimes is needed to get through to people, but therein lies some truth to that statement. Why must the government get involved all the time? The constitution was written so that the Federal government has very little interaction with our lives day-to-day but it has been twisted so that the feds are a integral part of our daily routine. You obviously side with Cranky that laws are laws and they are not meant to be broken. I respect that, but I do not feel it is patriotic of anyone to just lay down under the law and let it steam roll you. If that was the case the USA would never have come to pass, our founding fathers would have submitted and let the Brits tax us without representation etc. People need to take responsibility for their actions. Sometimes they need to learn for themselves, without the cost of government regulation, not just in mail scams but in all cases. Am I to believe that marijuana has no legitimate medicinal use because the government has deemed it so? Am I to believe the Federal Reserve has any legitimacy because it was brought into existence by the same breed of bankers who now are soaking the American taxpayers out of TRILLIONS of dollars? WAKE UP.
Shane
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 11:10 AM
Karen

"Is THAT anymore socially responsible than the chain letter?"

You just proved my point. Your complaining about corrupt politicians, yet you advocate this scheme, and think its just fine. Thats hipocritacal. So just because they do it we should too. If everyone thought that way, the world would be a bigger mess than it already is. Guess what George Bush invaded the privacy of millions of Americans by tapping their phones without a warrant. Then I guess its perfectly fine for me to be a peeping Tom now huh?

Crankys Partner.

"I respect that, but I do not feel it is patriotic of anyone to just lay down under the law and let it steam roll you."


Am I a government Official? Im simply trying to educate people. If you dont want to listen then fine, try the letter. Its my own personal opinion whether its legal or not that this is a bad idea. Sure I have no problem with it being illegal, just like I dont have a problem with insider trading being illegal, or theft being illegal. Because it protects the right of others.

You also said

"Am I to believe that marijuana has no legitimate medicinal use because the government has deemed it so?"

OK that is completelty off subject. My personal opinion is that for the most part government has dug their hands way to deep into the American peoples Social life and lifestyle. Yes this country was founded on stepping away from that type of behavior. Big government will only destroy peoples freedom. But guess what the same people who want to have more lax laws, are the same people who advocate, and feel entitled to a government controled health care system. Thats just like inviting uncle Sam into your bedroom. You need to wake up. Its seems to me that the only reason your arguing against me is because you have a miss-guided sense of reblellion. Im against big government. But you cant have it both ways. I dont blindly follow the government or authority, but I dont blindly dissagree with every law either. If you do either way you are conformist.
KarenESP
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 11:36 AM
Hi Shane...

I never said I advocated the scheme. In fact Im sending 16 year old Danny from Ca. 20 bucks for his promise not to send out the letter - Because I didnt want him confused by - what I said I was doing - which was just complaining that I wanted to try it but was blocked by the law. I said it sounded like fun, thats what I said. Then I made analogies that I thought were 'funny' and I didn't want him thinking I was justifying sending the letter. Put my money where my mouth is on that one.

I was making the point that apparently our Politicians aren't as socially responsible as you may believe them to be, our 'law makers.' Or, they are not as socially responsible as perhaps you YOURSELF are. The fact that the lawmakers left out a very financially material part of the arrangement on the ballot for the slot question appears to be lying by ommission in my opinion.

The chain letter lies and misleads as do our politicians in the preceding racetrack example.
Cranky's Partner
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 12:25 PM
I am not advocating the letter, nor have I or or will I try the "scam". In my opinion a scam is one that takes from one to better the other, and clearly that is not the case here. Is it a clever scheme made by mailing list people? Perhaps. Not that I even care. My point is that I didn't nor do I going forward need the postal service to protect me. I am not for a lawless society. There are plenty of countries like that today. I am for a country that abides by its constitution in everything it does.

"the same people who want to have more lax laws, are the same people who advocate, and feel entitled to a government controled health care system"

That is hilarious. Spoken like a true democrat.

And let it be known - I'm not arguing with you. I've never once said everyone should go out and do this mailing. I've never disagreed with the legality of it all, nor have I called anyone names for any of their beliefs. I came to this forum looking for answers and found alot of bullying and threatening going by one or two folks who don't know when to stop. Cranky will go to his grave with this forum thread still going, and he will haunt any poor sap who decides to take a chance on something, legal or not. He is so bound to following the laws, but one law does not carry more weight than others. Cranky can get high and mighty about the postal laws while he drives his car 70 mph down the highway. If he is so steadfast regarding postal laws, I would expect him to abide by all laws just the same, and not pick and choose what law he will follow, and which laws he will not. I've seen the same links posted again and again by obsessive compulsives who want to control others with their fear-mongering. If someone wants to try this, it is up to them. It's not Crank's responsibility to threaten them or belittle them. Its just him trying to remain in control, to be the BMOC. If someone reads this forum and consciously decides to participate they do so at their own risk. If they get "busted" it's their fault. That has been said time and time again, but for some, they have show their dominance and will not stop with what has been said.

My thoughts on big government are simply a reflection of where our country has headed the last 20 years. Its been my observations that people are complacent with the status quo, and they won't educate themselves otherwise. IT does not have to be like this, but it will remain like this until people wake up. My "misguided sense of rebellion" stems from learning how this country truly works - from our monetary system to the law making process. The federal government operated for 150 years without income taxes and the Federal Reserve, and did so with a balanced budget. Its when greed entered the constitution with the 16th amendment that I start to have problems. The 16th amendment is unconstitutional in that direct taxes must be apportioned according to Section 8 of the US constitution (a document you and i would bet 95% of the rest of the American population probably have never read. It was just a way to steal from the middle class to make the operators of the federal reserve rich. It continues to this day - the biggest abomination the American people have ever been exposed to - because people will not educate themselves on the truth about the federal reserve and income taxes. I served my country for 6 years in the military and have earned the right to say everything I'm saying here. I'm more awake than you could ever realize.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 01:21 PM
Cranky's Partner said:

"Cranky will go to his grave with this forum thread still going, and he will haunt any poor sap who decides to take a chance on something, legal or not."

All I've done is provide information--ACCURATE information--about an enduring scam which tends to reappear at times of economic uncertainty when people are desperate to get some cash. Sorry, but I don't see how I'm "haunting" anyone. And for the record, AGAIN, there is NO question about the legality of chain letters. They are ILLEGAL, pure and simple.

"He is so bound to following the laws, but one law does not carry more weight than others. Cranky can get high and mighty about the postal laws while he drives his car 70 mph down the highway."

You're going to hurt yourself jumping to conclusions like that. You don't even know if I own a car, let alone what my driving habits might be. Besides, even if I routinely drove in excess of the speed limit, would that magically make it OK for someone to rip people off via a chain letter? Two wrongs make a right? Your "logic" is seriously flawed.

"If someone wants to try this, it is up to them. It's not Crank's responsibility to threaten them or belittle them."

What "threats" have I issued and to whom?

"If someone reads this forum and consciously decides to participate they do so at their own risk. If they get "busted" it's their fault."

Chain letters and the like are scams designed to separate other people from their money. The operators lie to people to steal from them. My concern is for the potential victims, not the rip-off artists. All I've done is to provide information to people who might be considering participating in a chain letter so that they can make an informed decision. You DO agree with the notion of making INFORMED decisions, don't you?

"That has been said time and time again, but for some, they have show their dominance and will not stop with what has been said."

You seem to have some kind of odd obsession with me. I don't know who you are, nor do I care really and I can absolutely assure you that I have no interest in "dominating" you.

This may come as a shock to you but this forum and this discussion are NOT about YOU. It was here before you appeared and I suspect it'll be here after you leave. If I repeat the same information (and I do), it's because new people join the discussion frequently and most of them will not take (or will not HAVE) the time to read the 58 (!) pages of information to this point. Repeating things is for THEIR convenience and has NOTHING to do with you.

To show how unconcerned I am with "dominating" you, you have my permission to skip over anything I write here. Problem solved!
KarenESP
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 02:01 PM
Dear Cranky,

couple of pages back mom from utah said she stayed up all night reading it through, hee hee.

you never know.
Cranky's Partner
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 03:20 PM
You have forced my hand here:

Threat #1
"Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 | 01:15 PM
Roberto, what you are engaged in is illegal. Chain letters have been illegal since the days of the Depression when they became so popular that the overwhelmed the Post Office.

No, the chain letter won't kill you, but it *could* put you in jail. NOW how good an idea does it seem to be involved in one?

Just so you know, the odds are that you won't get caught, but if for some reason you attract the attention of the postal authorities, you should be aware that they have an extremely high percentage of conviction. They rarely lose a case."


Threat #2
Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 | 12:18 AM
"Are you contemplating not paying your taxes on the grounds that they're illegal? If so, you should know that you're far from the first person to propose that theory...and you would be far from the first person to go go prison for failing to pay federal taxes. That doesn't mean that you're necessarily wrong about the illegality of federal taxation. They have the guns and SWAT teams and the desire to make an example of you, though."

Threat #3
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 | 01:09 PM
"I've said this before, but I'll repeat it for your benefit. You're not very likely to get prosecuted for merely participating in a chain letter, but if for some reason you are, the postal authorities have a very high rate of conviction."

Threat#4
Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 | 01:11 AM
"Now that I'm reminded of it, I'm debating whether or not to turn the letter into the postal authorities. If I knew for sure that the sender was the person who STARTED the chain, I would do it for sure."

Lie #1
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 | 12:50 AM
"Ooh, very brave of an anonymous person to challenge me like that! Besides, when did I threaten to turn anyone in to anyone? All I've ever said is that a person involved in a chain letter COULD get into trouble if caught. That's a statement of fact."
You stated you'd gladly turn in the person if you knew who started it. See Threat #5 above.

Lie #2
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 | 11:51 PM
"If you're doing any REAL "research" into chain letters, then you'd already know that they are illegal. If you notice, I usually only respond when yet another person tries to claim they are NOT illegal. If people would stop making that false claim, I would stop pointing out for the umpteenth time that it isn't true."
You respond to nearly every 4th post in this forum, not matter what was said. GET A LIFE

Threat #5
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 | 01:31 PM
"In that case, you WILL be breaking the law. I realize you want to tell yourself you're not a criminal, but chain letters that involve money ARE illegal and if you participate in one, you ARE breaking the law. As I've said before, the odds of you getting caught are low, but if you ARE, you should know that the postal authorities have a VERY high rate of conviction. After all, there is physical evidence in the form of the letters working against you."

Threat #6
Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 | 01:31 PM
"Yes, Tami, when those thousands of dollars roll in (Ha!), you be sure to pay tax on them--and make sure to tell the government that you made the money via a "legal" chain letter. I'll look forward to the news stories about you going to jail. See, it's illegal to participate in a chain letter. It's also illegal to NOT pay tax on the money you theoretically make from one. If you DID pay tax on any money you made from a chain letter (which you won't in reality), you would be admitting that you participated in one, giving the government the evicence to prosecute you. Amusing little trap they've set up there, huh?"
Im F*ing done here
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 03:21 PM
Summary - I combed 6 pages of posts and found 6 threats, and two direct lies in those 6 pages. I'm sick of your "quotes" you use to mock others. Your "threats" and "lies" are unbecoming and I am quite certain that you will most weakly claim that these direct quotes are not threats, but merely stating the facts. A threat is a threat and I'm sure if I kept going I'd have at least 50 threats to dig up and post here out of the 58 pages. I will never again respond to this forum, as I have removed myself from the thread notifications. I think I have made my point.
Shane
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 05:17 PM
I got another one in the mail thats 4 total. Either Im really lucky or people are getting starting to get really desperate.


Im F*ing done here/Crankys Partner/The man Said.

"That is hilarious. Spoken like a true democrat."

Really? And I was starting to get to like you even. Not even close.

Either way you bring up some good points. And who knows what the Republican Party even stands for anymore, Im not going be rude and group you in that party because you obviously dont stand for there miss-guided ideals. My Favorite President of all time is Theodore Roosevelt one of the last true Republicans in office. Anyway the whole mess makes me sick. If I had to guess I would Say you are a Ron Paul supporter, which I am too. But as you said before Status Quo, and the rest of the American People.

Anyway I dont think you should have let Cranky get to you like that. Its very easy to ignore him, if you dont like what he has to say. And unless hes some kind of Secret Agent Postal inspector, Im pretty sure he is incapable of threatening anyone. He sure does not come accross as Scary to me. Fear Mongering Maybe. Oh Im Scared of the Cranky Monster, as much as Im scared of the Boogy Man. Nobody is forcing you to agree with him or me. Just like nobody is forcing me to agree with you. People need to "Educate themselves" and learn how to form their own opinions.

Karen
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 05:32 PM
Shane said:

"Anyway I dont think you should have let Cranky get to you like that. Its very easy to ignore him, if you dont like what he has to say. And unless hes some kind of Secret Agent Postal inspector, Im pretty sure he is incapable of threatening anyone."

Bingo!

My "partner" has a bizarre definition of "threatening." Simply pointing out the obvious fact that admitting to a federal crime in a public forum is a bad idea is hardly "threatening" them.

He (?) quotes me several times. In ONE of them, I said that IF I knew who the person was, I would consider turning them in. Uh, since, as I made clear, I DON'T know who they are, there is no threat of me taking any action against them in that quote.

Putting that aside, suppose I WAS "threatening" these people by saying I would report them. It's a BAD thing to report rip-off artists to the authorities? Who SUPPORTS their "right" to steal money from others via the U.S. mail?

Of course, since he's stomped off petulantly, he won't read this. Oh well. As I said to him earlier today, the thread WILL go on without him since it was never ABOUT HIM in the first place.
Shane
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 05:55 PM
Oh the new letter I got today Says on the Front.

"THIS IS NOT A PYRAMID SCAM NOR A CHAIN LETTER"

It most definetly is a chain letter

The next Page starts

Dear Aquaintance

BLA BLA BLA ATTORNEY BLa Bla Bla Send this to 200 People Bla Bla $1 6 names send Stamps Bla Bla not illegal Bla Bla $968,493 Dollars in CASH. Retired attorney who will not provide his name, even though he vouches for the legality of this scheme.

Looks like a letter to me, also follows a chain letter format and definetly fits the profile of a Pyramid Scam.

This is a question for everybody who may have sent this letter out. Would you trust a Finacial advisor who flat out lies to you the first time you meet them? Then why would you trust this stupid thing?
Imjustamom
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 06:33 PM
Just so you guys know, when I stayed up the other night reading through all the forum pages I did not read it word for word. After reading about four or five posts from the Cranky Media Guy it was a no brainer. I just skipped all the rest of his posts, can I say Blah Blah Blah...broken record.

But it is really considerate of him to repeat his valuable information for the new people, what a guy!

I think he might be proof why people should not send out those letters, you never know who may end up getting one. Please help the poor soul that mails one out to him unknowingly.
KarenESP
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 07:12 PM
Mom in Utah-

Hey, least you were able to draw and valuable and useful conclusion! (;

GUESS WHAT I GOT TODAY, I cant believe it!!!

Another letter!

This one even more photocopied and crookedy than the first one... no estimate of postal costs on this one and the names are haphazardly penned in.

Same thing bout Dataline: Guess they are spewing out duplicate names and addresses to those who order them from them.

Last letter from a lady in Ga., this one from Wisconsin.

For some reason I am really surprised.. I really thought I would never get another. Hmmmm.
KarenESP
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 | 07:17 PM
Dear f-ing done...

I didnt read everything word for word, but I think Cranky and Shane maturely state thier positions. Its just they only see one conclusion and even if you agree with them but state other issues you see in the letter, they kind of don't want to hear it.

The "Tool" comment, well, that sounded kind of rough to me but the rest was just the same thing stated in a rather well keeled manner.

Their hearts are in the right place they dont want to see anyone get 'scammed' as they see it to be.

Just a thought
Imjustamom
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 12:00 AM
Ok people I need your help in going over this.

Excerpt from the USPS website.

There's at least one problem with chain letters. They're illegal if they request money or other items of value and promise a substantial return to the participants. Chain letters are a form of gambling, and sending them through the mail (or delivering them in person or by computer, but mailing money to participate) violates Title 18, United States Code, Section 1302, the Postal Lottery Statute. (Chain letters that ask for items of minor value, like picture postcards or recipes, may be mailed, since such items are not things of value within the meaning of the law.)

So basically what I get from that is that "chain letters" themselves are not actually illegal. It says so right there, the may be mailed. Its just certain types of chain letters that are illegal, right?

Its says they are illegal, (using the big word 'IF') if they ask for money and promise a substantial return. So what if the chain letter asks for money, but does not give any promises, only points out the possibility of a return. Would that be illegal? No wonder people get confused on the legality of the whole thing with the freakin post office using words like "If" in their statement.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 01:12 AM
Imjustamom said:

"So what if the chain letter asks for money, but does not give any promises, only points out the possibility of a return. Would that be illegal?"

I'm not a lawyer but I suspect the postal authorities could find something to prosecute you on if you appeared on their "radar." For example, it seems to me that you could be accused or operating a lottery if you structured it as you described. Private lotteries are illegal in America.

As has been pointed out here before, the postal inspectors have the highest conviction rate of any of the federal law enforcement services. Is it a good idea to wave a red flag at them?

Putting that aside, the question is why would you want to operate that kind of "business" in the first place?
The Darn Blister
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 04:11 AM
In addition to the illegal private lottery issue, there's also the issue of solicitation of contributions without a license.

In case you missed it, panhandling is technically illegal in many cities.

Also, in the case of postal chain letters, the snowball effect of increased mail load rapidly gets the attention of the postal workers in the rare cases when a letter actually gets some momentum. Review the events of 1935 again, and note the kind of economic damage the letter did.
Shane
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 06:10 AM
Dont Forget Mail Fraud.


Mail Fraud
U.S. Postal Inspectors investigate any crime in which the U.S. Mail is used to further a scheme--whether it originated in the mail, by telephone, or on the Internet. The use of the U.S. Mail is what makes it mail fraud.
KarenESP
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 06:48 AM
Mom:

What I gather is that not everybody makes anything on this. Some people make a little, some people make more - but making anything is very rare - like when you buy a lottery ticket, it's very rare that you win.

THis is why chain letters fall under the lottery statute.

But if you want to do a chain letter for recipes and your happy to recieve 500 receipes from all over - that's ok with them. $500 is not.

Some ppl here said they found the letter passed out flyer style, slipped under their door, etc., not mailed. But you would still have to mail the $6 back to the respective ppl and therefore it still violates the postal statutes.

THere is one example given on the Post Office site where it specifically says the PO does not consider being added to a mailing list as a 'valuable service.'

My friend who worked at the PO for ten years and now works for Homeland Security looked at it and told me it's a scam and I should just go buy a lottery ticket.

I was as frustrated as you over the code myself, but I knew what they were getting at too.

Good luck!
Shane
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 07:13 AM
This site has some really good resources just found it.


http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~watrous/chain-letters.html



I like this part its similar to a post I made before.


Why can't chain letters work?
Now let's assume that everyone on the list is honest and just perpetuating the "chain." (After all, these letters do emhpasize being HONEST.) Then if everyone on the list has made five copies, you are one of 5**5 or 3,125 people receiving copies in your "generation" of the letter. So far, the numbers don't seem outlandish. And looking the other way, you stand to get postcards from 3125 people. That doesn't seem impossible either. But view it as the "chain" you're in the middle of, and there will be 5**11 or 48,828,125 people receiving copies in that generation of the letter. If distribution were confined to the United States, there wouldn't be enough people left who hadn't already received a copy for the next generation.
KarenESP
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 07:59 AM
Hi Shane,

You know I dont understand why you "like that part."

This is because we all know most ppl are going to throw the letter in the recycling bin as soon as they get it. THAT is the REALITY.

So as far as the exponential run out of ppl example - it is not based in reality. Just as you will not get 800K from sending out 200 letters, neither will that example ever have a chance to play itself out because it does not fit the reality of most ppl ditching the letter upon receipt.
Shane
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 09:42 AM
Yes they may throw it away but they still recieve it again. I have recieved four in the last year. What do you think the chances are of someone trying this scam after recieving it for a fourth time, or somebody participating in it for a second run after already trying it. Also the pool of people is even smaller than what this example says, because it is limited to the people in the contacts database. It backs up my point that this scam cannot work in ideal or un-ideal situation. Thats why I like this example. But do you remember the number I put up with only an 11% response rate? That is still outlandish, but it goes to show that you little to no room to make out in this scheme. If you are really lucky somehow you might make out but most likely most of the people who sent you a dollar would not. Sometime for example sake you have eliminate some Variables and exxagerate others to make the point clear to people that do not have a mathmatical mind. Otherwise the idea will not make sense. But Either way you present the equation the product comes out the same. It using Algebra in economics.
Imjustamom
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 09:48 AM
Its obvious that they don't work, no way are people honest enough for these things to ever work. I was purely talking in theory. To discuss the line of legality with what the PO has told us.
Shane
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 12:14 PM
I have to dissagree to an extent, I believe even with everyone being honest (as far as following the rules sending the $1 ect.) this would not work the way it is stated. But also the whole thing is based off of dishonesty right off the bat.

Oh I forgot to mention

"So as far as the exponential run out of ppl example"

Yes in our situation its very possible, I have recieved 4 and you have recieved 2. The database is gettting dried up. There is no way the database would be able to replenish itself with new contacts fast enough to keep this scheme in any type of bablance. Sure people could find contacts elsewhere but eventually everyone will see this scheme. I saw it in e-mail form for the first time in 2000. Back then it was $5 not $1.
KarenESP
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 03:29 PM
Hi Shane... as far as 'getting letters' (and not acting on them)... ok now I see your point. I think of that as the saturation level.

Thanks for clearing that up, Karen
Shane
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 06:22 PM
Yes so A=(amount of letter initially sent out) B=((amount of initial responders)multiplied by a wild variable of the initial presentation of the letter in percentage.) C=(the realistic amount of contacts one person may have)----in this case a database of 200 with a small cap I can assume since I have been hit 4 times.(without it not many people are capable of gathering up to 200 contacts by themselves with no effort???)... D=( the total capacity of contacts in the united states) E=(amount of capitol expended, or wasted because the labor does not generate one says $221.00 the new one I got says $199.00 lol Propaganda ex. 99cents instead of a dollar).


Anyway I could keep on adding variables, but I have been working all week and today overtime at work on math stuff Im kinda tired now. So Anyway you could not pay enough to put a true mathmatical equation together for this scheme but a simplified version I wished was sufficient. Anyway maybe I should have said that this is my favorite Part of the Previous link. I did not post it before because I thought it was insulting to human intelligence.


Why do people think chain letters could work?
The reason people are even tempted by these schemes is that the human mind does not have an intuitive view of geometrical progressions. Suppose we presume the chain letter to have a list of five people. You are asked to send one postcard to the person on top of the list, and remail the letter to five friends. You are promised thousands of postcards from all over the world if everyone participates. Your cost: a postcard, five photocopies and envelopes, and six stamps. Not much to risk to see what comes back...
Shane
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 06:40 PM
Oh BTW Karen, Im really not a jerk by nature I just get frustrated when people dont agree with the obvious. Generally I beleive optimism is the key to a healthy economy, actually more so then people believe. The Economy is doing bad mostly due to the fact that everyone is so Pestamistic, the media does not help. Some people dissagree with me but it makes complete mathmatical sense. You tell someone things are bad they cut back on expendatures, that affect everyday small business, then they dont make as much and have to cut back on employees, then they may get unemployment but have to cut back too, then luxuries like getting a new car get postponed, then the auto industry cuts back. See the Snowball effect similar to the Chain letter in an adverse way huh. Everyone should stay positive and try to work hard every day, and believe that things will get better tommorow. They are laying off at my company more and more, I survived so far but who knows. I will be ok either way things are good in my book even if I do get laid off.
Shane
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 | 06:55 PM
I forgot to mention "The Depression" it almost sound ridiculous but, everybody was depressed, it took a spur like WW2 and FDR to get them out of it. Anyway Post War ecponomies (or conflicts and redirection) have never failed to falter in a spike in the united stated economy. Just another optimistic thought. I was talking to a Tech at work today and he seems to believe everything the media says about the economy getting worse. I tried to explain to him that if you and everyone thinks that way, then yes ut will get worse. There are a number of variable involved. But guess what one of the number on variable that effects all business GAS prices is at its lowest in I dunno 567 years. But the price of cheese is going up because everyone is too scared too venture out and take a risk. Yes there is much more involved than Gas prices and Cheese, but also people complicate the situation more than it need be. Im done. Dont turn to Pyramid scams for relief it will hurt so much more than do good.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 | 02:35 AM
The reason chain letters don't work (and therefore are illegal) has almost nothing to do with "people not being honest" and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that the math involved in impossible.

The only money in the "pot" in a chain letter is what the participants have put into it. It has no way of multiplying or accruing interest.

If ANYONE takes out more than they put in, other people MUST LOSE MONEY.

If Person A takes out six times his money, five other people MUST lose their money. Those five have given Person A his "profit."

That's all there is to it. It's simple arithmetic, there isn't really anything else to understand about a chain letter.

It makes no difference whether there are three participants, three thousand or three million. If anyone takes out more than they put in, other people are losing money.

The principle involved is the same for all pyramid-type schemes, including chain letters. It's called "robbing Peter to pay Paul." If you've been following the news in the past few days, you've probably read a story about a guy who is accused of running a hedge fund which was actually a so-called "Ponzi scheme." He was allegedly doing the exact same thing, just with a LOT more money. The numbers may change, but the method behind the scam is exactly the same.

If you need this principle explained in more detail, look back at earlier pages of this thread. It has been painstakingly explained more than once, but I just gave you all you really need to know.

Chain letters don't work because they CANNOT work.
Imjustamom
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 | 04:14 PM
Well yeah, the math is a no brainer. I'm pretty sure everyone gets it. The more the chain multiplies, eventually then are not enough people on the earth to support those kinds of numbers. Its not rocket scientist, wow, its like you are the only guy in the world who can add 2 + 2. Thanks so much teach.

Honesty is a major reason why it does not work. When the chain starts out, its just a bunch of people, not millions. And most of those people are too dishonest to keep the names on the list straight, or to send the money back up the chain. Its all about GREED, and that is truly why it will never work. I don't think the thing ever actually gets big enough to exhaust the numbers, so the math never really plays a big role in reality.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 | 04:33 PM
Imjustamom said:

"The more the chain multiplies, eventually then are not enough people on the earth to support those kinds of numbers. Its not rocket scientist, wow, its like you are the only guy in the world who can add 2 + 2. Thanks so much teach."

Well, you COULD back off on the sarcasm and try to actually UNDERSTAND the principle involved.

It really doesn't have anything to with the NUMBER of people involved. With ANY number of people, if the money put in isn't invested or doesn't accrue interest in some way, there is only as much money as was put in initially.

Therefore, if ANYONE takes out more than they put in, OTHER people HAVE to lose.

Example: Three people sit around a table and each puts a dollar into a hat. Person A then takes out TWO dollars. Since the money wasn't invested in anything, wasn't used to start a profit-making enterprise and doesn't accrue interest, the next person can only take out what he put in and the third person will get nothing at all. While it's easier to visualize when there are only a few participants, the principle is the same NO MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED.

"When the chain starts out, its just a bunch of people, not millions."

Not relevant to the principle involved, as I just demonstrated.

"I don't think the thing ever actually gets big enough to exhaust the numbers, so the math never really plays a big role in reality."

A chain letter CANNOT make every participant come out ahead, no matter how few or how many people are involved in it. Extra money does not come from nowhere.

As you said, this isn't rocket science.
Shane
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 | 05:14 PM
"I don't think the thing ever actually gets big enough to exhaust the numbers, so the math never really plays a big role in reality."


Sure thats why I have recieved this thing 4 times already. Thats also why this thing has been around for as long as it has been.

Popele Fall for it all the time.

Well I think my time would be better off spent banging my head against a brick wall, rather than continue to argue at his forum Goodbye all.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 | 12:09 AM
Let's examine this notion that if every participant in a chain letter is "honest," the chain will work.

Imagine a chain with a million participants. To keep things simple, let's say that everyone is supposed to put one dollar in and get five dollars out. Now imagine that everyone is "honest," meaning that they all send in their dollar.

The chain is run in the usual manner, with no investment of the money or interest accrued. Participant Number One takes out five dollars. He has a profit of four dollars. Where did the four dollars come from?

Well since as stated, there was no investment or interest accrued, the ONLY source of money in the "pot" is the dollars the participants put in. Therefore, Number One's extra four dollars came from participants 999,997 through 1,000,000. There will be NO money in the pot when their turn comes around. They have each LOST the dollar they put in.

When Participant Number Two takes out HIS five dollars, participants 999,993 through 999,996 have just been screwed. There will NO money available for them either. And so forth. Every time someone at the head of the line takes out more than he put in, people at the back of the line are losing out, whether they realize it yet or not.

That's it. The number of dollars and participants may change, but the principle involved cannot.

There's a simple formula for figuring out how many people get screwed. Let's say you're supposed to get five times your money back. We'll call that multiple of five "x." The number of people who have to lose their money in order for you to get that profit is X-1. If YOU get five times YOUR money back, FOUR other people have to LOSE their "investment" (you are getting your money back plus theirs).

As you can see, while "honesty" may keep the chain going a while longer, in the end, all pyramid-type schemes, including chain letters, MUST collapse.
Imjustamom
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 | 10:06 AM
I don't know if you noticed, but you kinda overwhelm people with your paragraphs and paragraphs. And I'm not being sarcastic.
Pretty soon there won't be anyone left on here to hear you. Oh well, its probably for the best. Four years was a good run, right?
Why such the big interest in the subject matter anyways? Why do you have so much to say about this? Or is it like this on every forum and every subject you discuss?
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 | 01:32 PM
Imjustamom said:

"I don't know if you noticed, but you kinda overwhelm people with your paragraphs and paragraphs."

An untruth ("chain letters can work if everyone is honest") can be told in few words because important details are left out. Accurate information requires details to be clear.

"Pretty soon there won't be anyone left on here to hear you. Oh well, its probably for the best. Four years was a good run, right?"

I and others have been explaining why chain letters don't work and are illegal since Page One of this thread and I don't see any decrease in the number of people who add to the thread. Plus, you have to remember that there are people who come here and read the thread but never post anything themselves.

"Why such the big interest in the subject matter anyways? Why do you have so much to say about this?"

I think the relevant question is why is anyone bothered by accurate information about an illegal scam which seeks to take money from people? Shouldn't that information be available to people who look for it?
don't care what you think
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 | 06:16 PM
You can call me ignorant, a sucker, a loser, a weirdo, or a one-armed bandit, and I could care less. Without any kind of research or blog reading,I felt spontaneous after receiving the chain letter and decided to follow the instructions perfectly. I invested approximately $138.00 (because I had no overhead cost in paper and ink)and got a return of $528.00. 528-138 = 390. $390.00 profit. Figure out that rocket science cranky media freak. After extensive research I realize it is stupid and I got lucky. BUT, I encourage everyone to be a critical thinker and make your own decisions rather than reading the **s a m e o l d j u n k** these argumentative jack ass's have posted for the last FOUR years.
KarenESP
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 | 07:17 PM
Don't care wrote: I felt spontaneous after receiving the chain letter and decided to follow the instructions perfectly.

KarenESP wrote: Very good communication skills for a male. You don't hear men use that word very much, "spontaneous."

Don't care wrote: I invested approximately $138.00 (because I had no overhead cost in paper and ink)and got a return of $528.00. 528-138 = 390. $390.00 profit

KarenESP wrote: I just gotta know, did you raid the office supply closet for the paper and run it off on company ink?

Hee hee, just curious.

I dont care what I think either so we are on an even playing field there. (;

Congrats on winning "the letter" lottery.
Imjustamom
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 | 12:15 AM
Hey Don't care what you think person.
I'm interested to hear more about your story, please share with us. When did you get the letter? Did you keep it honest and send the money out to the 6 or 7 people on your list? Did you buy a mailing list? How long did you wait before your mailbox was stuffed with money? Did is suck to open up more then 500 envelopes? When I read through this forum most people who said they made money only posted like once, they never followed up. So we will wait to see if you have anything else to share with us. By the way, I'm totally thinking the one-arm bandit is a perfect fit, you rock!
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 | 12:41 AM
don't care what you think said:

"Figure out that rocket science cranky media freak. After extensive research I realize it is stupid and I got lucky."

What's to figure out (other than why you're engaging in insults)? You said it yourself, you got lucky, assuming you're not just making up the whole story, that is.

"BUT, I encourage everyone to be a critical thinker and make your own decisions rather than reading the **s a m e o l d j u n k** these argumentative jack ass's have posted for the last FOUR years."

If you think I've said anything incorrect, please show me (and everyone else) the error of my ways instead of resorting to insults.

For someone who "doesn't care" what others think, you sure seem concerned with what I've said in this thread.

By the way, be careful what you wish for. If people take your advice and apply critical thinking to the chain letter issue, they'll realize that what I've said is 100% accurate and probably won't get involved in one.
KarenESP
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 | 01:56 PM
Hey Just a mom.. if you get any envelopes with bills in them you dont feel like opening, you can just send them to me...

wink
Imjustamom
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 | 02:40 PM
Ok, you have to check this out. Someone sent me a chain letter. Not to my mom this time, but to me Actually. So its different then the other one. Interesting as it sounds, I believe it to be illegal as well. So let the hash over begin. I wonder if people will be blah blah blahing about this one for four years.

!!! WARNING !!!
Don
Imjustamom
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 | 02:43 PM
It would not let me post the whole thing at once, so here is the rest of the letter.

Here is how it works:
1. You send 20 letters. That
Imjustamom
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 | 02:45 PM
By the way, I did not have to type it out, I found it online already typed up by someone else.


Make 20 or more copies of this letter with you name in the 4th position. The more copies you send, the more money you will receive in approximately 2 weeks. Put this program in a stamped envelope and mail them out to whoever you choose. Mail ASAP! That
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 | 05:16 PM
Im just a mom said:

"Interesting as it sounds, I believe it to be illegal as well. So let the hash over begin. I wonder if people will be blah blah blahing about this one for four years."

There's no "blah blah blah" about it. It's illegal.

This would be a large part of why:

"** Hugh Profits: You will receive at least $10,000 in 2 weeks
** Easiest: Takes less than 1 hour of your time
** Fastest: Pays you off completely in 2 weeks
** Cheapest: Costs less than $18 - includes every single expense
** Enormous Returns: Consistently 60% - 85% returns"

See that "WILL receive" part? That's a lie. No one can make that promise since a chain letter CANNOT guarantee a profit to all participants. Sorry to burst your little bubble, but money doesn't come from nowhere.

"Designed By: Theodore Williamson, Attorney at Law
& Sheila Chaney, CPA / Stock Broker"

So, some scam artists come up with yet another irrelevant variation on the decades-old chain letter scam and because they give themselves fake names and claim to be an attorney and a CPA, we're supposed to believe what they say?

How many times do you have to be hit in the head with a shovel before you're brain damaged enough to buy that bullshit?

"I have a very successful practice. I don
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 | 05:30 PM
Funny, this "attorney" "Theodore Williamson" seems to have NO presence on Google except for links to this same rip-off chain letter.

You'd think a "successful attorney" would turn up in some other context, like accounts of all the cases he's won, wouldn't you?

I guess he's SO busy running this amazing chain letter that he doesn't have time to do lawyer stuff anymore. After all:

"I ran the program for 1 year before writing his letter. It has bee[n] improved, and best of all, it really does work every singe time it is used. Because of the low investment cost of only $18.00, the return rate is really high. It ranges anywhere from 60% - 85%."

Wow. Bernie Madoff who is accused of running the all-time largest Ponzi scheme was only returning 1-1.2% per month on HIS scam...and he's probably going to jail! This Williamson is a complete genius, isn't he?

"EVERYONE who participates in this program will definitely profit from it!"

That's amazing! Has there ever been another investment in the history of mankind that could ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE that you'll make a profit? We should start making busts of Williamson right now to put in every museum in the world.

Of course, we could simply Occam's Razor to the situation and realize that the FAR more likely explanation is that this is a total bullshit story. Let's just go with that, shall we?
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 | 05:34 PM
That last part should read "we could simply apply Occam's Razor..."
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 | 05:46 PM
While this isn't about chain letters specifically, it gives you a basic explanation of why these types of things don't work:

http://www.slate.com/id/2206859/
Shane
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 | 07:32 PM
I know I said I was done before but. Cranky you are going to give yourself a Heart Attack. I just cannot argue with or spend any more time explaining this to people. Especially when they think that Pyramid scam do not work because people are diss-honest. That can play a factor, but in all reality it is not. They do not work they will not work, Its not as simple as you put it though. Because People can Profit, but only in rare circumstances, if you get in at the right time, and you use Propaganda that will reel in enough people. Its not a simple equation as you put it simply earlier. You gain equity from fresh circulation if it is executed properly. Then you end up ripping off a lot of people, just like Multie Level Marketing Schemes. Its not 2+2 IMJUST A MOM. The new scheme you put up is just a clone of the previous one, except less likely to work. Alright then Im going to go back to banging my head against a brick wall now.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 | 01:03 AM
Shane said:

"I know I said I was done before but. Cranky you are going to give yourself a Heart Attack. I just cannot argue with or spend any more time explaining this to people. Especially when they think that Pyramid scam do not work because people are diss-honest. That can play a factor, but in all reality it is not. They do not work they will not work..."

Nah, I'm not even close to having a heart attack...not because of this, anyway.

You and I agree about the impossible math involved in the chain letter scam. And we're right, of course.

Yes, people at the very START of a chain letter can come out ahead. Who do you think is at the START of the chain? The person who began it, that's who. Why do you think they start one? The chumps who come along later are just donating their money to the scam artist at the head of the line.

When you get into a chain, you have no idea where you are in the "pecking order." If it's gone on for any length of time, you're almost certainly far enough back that you'll never see a dime from it, including whatever money you put into it.

A SMART scam artist will be behind all five of those names you are supposed to send your money to in the letter.

"Its not a simple equation as you put it simply earlier."

No, I'm right about that. If you were to get SIX times your money back, let's say, it would have come from FIVE other people, plus your initial "investment." All profit in a chain letter or any other kind of pyramid scheme comes from people who got in after you. There is NO other source of money.
don't care what you think
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 | 04:35 PM
First and foremost, I know what I said, so you don't have to quote me when its your turn to talk. Moving on.. I've got an idea to run by everyone. Maybe, just maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all. Think about this: Would you not agree that the economy is down right now? Okay, so if I get a letter and decide to send out 200 more letters, I am helping the economy in many ways. First off the postal workers are paid mostly in part by stamp sales, secondly, mail sorters can work a couple extra hours sorting out all that chain letter mail, thirdly, office max will make a sale by selling me ink, paper, and envelopes. Seems to me everyone wins. Fortunately for me I run a business out of my home and have plenty of envelopes and office necessities sitting around. I did this last year just for fun, and I made out. Sorry, I couldn't respond fast enough to all your questions. I hardly have time to respond to useless blogs on the internet. I just wanted to voice my opinion to all the disgruntled right-winged republican hawks out there. As if that has something to do with it... lol. So long friends, and maybe we should all stop being so selfish and help the economy. 😊
Shane
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 | 05:16 PM
don't care what you think


The funny thing is you have some valid points. That aside when you get involved in something like this you have to weigh out the Pros and cons. On one side you are indirectly helping the economy, mostly in the public sector. On the other hand you are directly spreading Propaganda, wasting money and resources, willingly participating in an illegal pyramid scheme, filling peoples mailboxes with junk mail(as if people dont get enough as it is). More stuff too, my point is everyone needs to educate themselves before participating in anytype of get rich, or marketing schemes. Weigh out all the possibilities.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 | 06:42 PM
Don't care what you think said:

"So long friends, and maybe we should all stop being so selfish and help the economy."

Chain letters "help the economy" in the same way as bank robbery does.

They take money from many people and give it to a very few.

They are also illegal.

How is it "selfish" to refuse to get involved in a well-documented scam?
KarenESP
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 | 07:07 PM
hmmm... helping the economy, eh?

I dont think so. Lets say you contain a chain letter to the US. You send your six letters and get your 800K, then for it to work for everyone-you would have to keep getting chain letters, oodles of them and keep re-sending the money you recieved to a new group of six people, over and over again...

hmmm.. what would be helped would be the data base people, the envelope co.s and the post office would be hiring every available body walking and breathing.

But other than that, if you were prepared to be fair, you couldnt spend your 800K because theorectically, you would just be sending and receiving the same money over and over again.

Helping the economy? Not sure I see that even if everyone played by the rules.
The Darn Blister
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 | 07:41 PM
Help the economy? Mr. Don't Think, let me remind you that history shows that such schemes do the exact opposite - they make the economy worse.
Imjustamom
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 | 12:17 AM
In the original letter it talks about sending people money for a service of being added to a mailing list. In the new letter I got it talks about sending people money as a "gift". So what's the difference. Are they just trying to find new ways to make it sound legal? Where does it say that is illegal to give someone a gift?

I already looked it up, and there are no laws prohibiting the mailing of cash through the USPS. So Grandma can send me $5 in a birthday card if she wants to. So why not someone else?
Imjustamom
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 | 12:27 AM
Never mind, I just answered my own question. This Postal Law listed in the letter really proves that the letter is illegal, not the other way around. Its weird that the letter lists its own downfall. Do they just think people will never actually read it.
Title 18, Section 1302 of the U.S. Postal Laws
KarenESP
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 | 05:55 AM
Isn't it bold how they do that, mom in utah? And so many ppl think... oh yea, on Oprah- ok, here's the law! How convenient they came right out with all of it, even the law... then buzz right out to the copy center... wink!
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 | 01:27 PM
Imjustamom said:

"Its weird that the letter lists its own downfall. Do they just think people will never actually read it."

Yup, that's exactly what they think. And they're probably right, too.

"I already looked it up, and there are no laws prohibiting the mailing of cash through the USPS. So Grandma can send me $5 in a birthday card if she wants to. So why not someone else?"

It's all about the INTENT. Grandma isn't sending you the money on the premise that she will get several times her "investment" back. Grandma isn't making any false promises about how "everyone can come out ahead if we're all honest," etc.

In short, Grandma is making a legitimate gift, as opposed to the phonies who run chain letters.

The subject of "intent" and how courts have interpreted it has been covered in this thread before.
friend of Jerry`s
Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 | 04:29 PM
Hi i`m a friend of Jerry`s and i have been doing the letter deal for 4 weeks and received only 136 bucks if i get my money back i`ll be happy if not oh well i tried.
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