Prebirth Experiences

Kathy said:

"Well, skeptics abound everywhere. Having had several prebirth experiences with my children before they were born, and with most of them years before they were ever conceived, I know these are for real."

I'm fascinated. How, pray tell, did you "communicate" with something that DIDN'T EXIST YET? What energy did these non-existant beings utilize to communicate with you?

At the site you mention and which I've explored extensively, there is no attempt by anyone to bilke people out of money in order to psychically communicate with their unborn children."

So what? The absence of a profit motive in no way "proves" the truth of the claims made.

Gimme a break. If you'll bother to look at it closely, every single experience put up on the site has the distinguising characteristic of being spontaneous, comforting, and uplifting. Hello, what is so bad about something that is so positive? What are you so afraid of, that you have to condemn just because you don't understand?"

Ah, it's the old "you must be afraid" argument. How about we don't believe in this nonsense because it doesn't make any sense? Isn't THAT a possibility?

Do you also believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy? If not, why not? After all, aren't they "uplifting" and don't those beings allegedly do kind things for humans without a profit motive? Gee, they MUST be real then, right?

Please don't tell me there's no proof of the existance of Sants; I've seen him many times at the mall with my own eyes. I've seen the presents under the tree on Christmas. In fact, there's FAR more evidence for the existance of Santa than there is for the existance of "pre-birth communication."

You're right. Saying your afraid is a fallacious argument. Of course, so is your argument that "it doesn't make sense" is proof that spiritual experiences don't happen, or proof that our souls or spirits don't exist prior to our physical existence.

When a difference of opinion is based on fundamental belief differences, there can never be agreement. You will never agree with me -- unless such an experience happened to you. At the same time there is the possibility that, because you at your core do not accept that such spiritual experiences happen to people, you would talk yourself right out of belief of any spiritual experience you might have. So, we are at a standstill.

You have no evidence that disproves my witness and testimony that I have indeed seen three of my children years before they were conceived, wrote about the experience in my journal that same year, and what I saw came to pass within the next five years. You have no evidence that disproves the truth of the accounts at royalchild.com or the IANDS site, or any other site.

You made a claim here that prebirth experiences were a hoax. That they aren't real because it doesn't make sense. Have you no more evidence than your own opinion, your own lack of belief, to back up your claim that spiritual experiences such as PBEs are not really happening? Because according to the latest study about spiritual experiences in America, approximately 150 million people claim otherwise. http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/05/121305.norc.pdf

I'm more likely to believe the overwhelming numbers of people who bear witness of the spiritual than I am one skeptic.

Kathy

I forgot a couple of things. First, you asked what energy they used to communicate with me because they don't exist. It is, again, only your opinion that they don't exist spiritually before they exist physically. I should say we, since we all experience the same conception and birth in essentials. Anyway, what proof do you have that we don't exist prior to our conceptions? What besides your own opinion that it doesn't make sense do you have to disprove the purported hundreds of accounts Hinze has documented? Have you ever interviewed her? Listened to her speak? Asked to see her files? Interview the people who claim such experiences? What makes your opinion more valid than hers?

You asked, What energy did they use to communicate with me? What a silly question -- no offense. How would I know what energy they used? Some eternal one governed by eternal laws I imagine. I didn't claim to know HOW I experienced what I experienced. I only said that it happened, that I have had prebirth experiences.

You say it doesn't make sense. I say it makes perfect sense that we are eternal beings having a brief mortal experience. That is my fundamental belief, and so it makes total sense to me that we can at times experience that spiritual realm from which we came; that the door to that eternal place we came from and go home to is not closed to us all the time.

I accept wholeheartedly that this is anathema to you. That's fine. No skin off my nose. What I refute is your claim of absolute truth simply because you think it isn't possible. With God nothing is impossible. Of course, we probably disagree that God even exists. Whatever. You have no evidence either way. I have my experiences and the witnesses of hundreds, even thousands, and if that study I mentioned is even remotely correct, millions worldwide on my side.

Enjoy your skepticism. I will enjoy my personal knowledge of the spiritual, and we can both be happy in our beliefs. I appreciate that you give people a chance to respond and tell the other side here. That's pretty cool.

Kathy

Kathy said:

"I forgot a couple of things. First, you asked what energy they used to communicate with me because they don't exist."

Well, it's a perfectly fair thing to ask of a person who asserts the existance of something for which there appears to be no evidence, isn't it? Your entire "argument" seems to be try to get we skeptics to prove that something doesn't exist. Sorry, that dog won't hunt. If you say it exists, the burden of proof is on YOU.

"It is, again, only your opinion that they don't exist spiritually before they exist physically."

I refer you to my previous paragraph. YOU need to prove that what YOU claim exists actually does.

"What besides your own opinion that it doesn't make sense do you have to disprove the purported hundreds of accounts Hinze has documented? Have you ever interviewed her? Listened to her speak? Asked to see her files? Interview the people who claim such experiences? What makes your opinion more valid than hers?"

My "opinion" is that things for which no evidence exists probably do not exist. I said "probably" meaning that if you can't demonstrate to me that they DO exist, using actual FACTS, I will update my opinion of them, as logic demands.

"You asked, What energy did they use to communicate with me? What a silly question -- no offense. How would I know what energy they used?"

Um, do you REALLY think it's a silly question, given that YOU are the one who is saying that they exist, despite an apparant absence of any evidence? So, basically, you're saying that you "know" these beings exist although you're at a total loss to explain how that is possible given that--by your admission--they haven't even been conceived yet. Then you get pissy when someone asks what energy such a being could possibly use to "comminicate?" Interesting.

"Some eternal one governed by eternal laws I imagine."

Yes, you're right in that you're imagining ALL of this.

"I didn't claim to know HOW I experienced what I experienced. I only said that it happened, that I have had prebirth experiences."

I probably should have asked you earlier, but what exactly is a "prebirth experience" anyway?

"You say it doesn't make sense. I say it makes perfect sense that we are eternal beings having a brief mortal experience."

You have every right to believe that, but you have ZERO right to expect that others won't challenge you about it, since you have NO evidence whatsover that any of what you are proposing can exist. The sincerity or depth of your belief DOES NOT constitute proof of anything.

"That is my fundamental belief, and so it makes total sense to me that we can at times experience that spiritual realm from which we came; that the door to that eternal place we came from and go home to is not closed to us all the time."

Again, your belief proves nothing at all. The fact that something "makes sense" to you proves NOTHING.

continued...

...continued

"What I refute is your claim of absolute truth simply because you think it isn't possible."

I have made no such claim at all. What I have done is to ask you to prove any of what you claim is true. You have admitted that you cannot provide such proof. Therefore I submit that your belief is most likely NOT true.

You offer anecdotal evidence of something you haven't even defined here. I've read books by people who claim to have been abducted by aliens and taken to other planets. I guess I have to accept those claims uncritically, too, right? After all, they've given me the same "proof" as you have--nothing other than anecdotes.

"With God nothing is impossible. Of course, we probably disagree that God even exists. Whatever. You have no evidence either way."

You are correct; I do not believe in God. Again, the burden of proof is on YOU, not me. Sorry, but that's just how things work.

"I have my experiences and the witnesses of hundreds, even thousands, and if that study I mentioned is even remotely correct, millions worldwide on my side."

Once upon a time, the majority of people on Earth believed that their planet was flat. The number of people who believe in something does NOT constitute proof that what they believe is correct. If I could produce a poll that said that more people do NOT believe in pre-birth communication, would you immediately conclude that they must be right? That, of course, would be consistent with your apparant belief that the fact that a lot of people believe in something proves that it's correct.

"Enjoy your skepticism. I will enjoy my personal knowledge of the spiritual, and we can both be happy in our beliefs. I appreciate that you give people a chance to respond and tell the other side here. That's pretty cool."

Oh, I'm sure that you will continue to enjoy your belief in the fantastic and unsubstantiatable. I will continue to insist on FACTS before I decide to invest myself emotionally in something.

I agree with you that this is a cool site. I've had the absolutely BEST debates I've ever had here and that's terrific.

Burden of proof. That's interesting. This has been the debate for Millenia regarding spiritual things. It is impossible to measure spiritual things using a physical measurement, simply because that which is of spirit is not made of physical matter. I believe there are some people out there who are seeking to find a physical way to measure spiritual things, but since that hasn't been something that concerned me, I haven't kept up on it. What I do know is we aren't talking about the belief of those 150 million people, or myself for that matter. Or, if we just take only the study's sampling which was a bit over 1000 people. Half of them reported having had a spiritual or religious experience that altered their lives. These were people who don't merely believe. These were people who had spiritually transforming experiences. Eye-witnesses, although their experiences weren't all regarding literally the eye, so we'll just call them witnesses. Not just believers. Believers are a much higher percentage.

The apostles in Jesus' day struggled with the same thing you are -- Here was Mary Magdalene telling them that she had seen the risen Jesus, physically seen him with her own eyes, but the apostles all thought she was crazy, that such thing was impossible and she was likely deranged with grief. Until Jesus appeared to 11 of them in the upper room and they all went forward one by one to actually touch and feel and see the wounds in his hands and feet, and they saw him eat with them. Thomas later was given the same opportunity and became the 12th witness that Jesus had in very fact rose from the dead as had been prophesied.

They couldn't explain by what power it had happened, by what energy or laws such a thing could happen, but they could not deny the evidence of their eyes and ears and fingers. Jesus, whom they knew to be dead, was dead no longer. From then on they bore their witness of the risen Christ, and never denied their sure knowledge and witness of him, and were each -- apparently except for John -- martyred, most in pretty gruesome ways, for that witness.

It was more than belief, more than faith. They had solid proof presented to them, and they bore witness of that fact. Later, Saul of Tarsus also bore testimony that he had seen a light, and Christ was in that light and spoke to him, and from that day forward Paul also never denied his sure knowledge and witness, and was killed for it. They could no more prove their witness than I can.

(cont'd)

In a court of law, even one solid witness is enough to convict a man of a crime. Two or three is corroborative evidence, and a guarantee of conviction, unless the defense can show that the witness is somehow untrustworthy.

Why, also, cannot three witnesses, or twelve, or a thousand or a 150 million witnesses to spiritual experiences, PBEs among them, be sufficient proof of the existence of a spirit[ual] realm? At the very least proof of the possibility. Enough to cast doubt on the prosecution's claims. If it's proof in a court of law, then reason demands those witnesses to at least be considered by the jury. Twelve witnesses, or thirteen if Paul is added in, is a pretty substantial number, or would be in a court of law.

Forget my experience for the moment -- just take all the ones that are published at royalchild.com, light-hearts.com, and some other places, as well as those in the books that have been published on this subject. Taken all together, it's well over a hundred accounts, witnesses, of some form of experience with the dimension/realm/world of the pre-mortal. If that's not proof enough for you, oh well. Again, no skin off my nose. I'm not really trying to prove anything, anyway. I can't give you physical proof. Only eye-witnesses. I happened upon this thread at your site, and being aware that PBEs and other transforming spiritual experiencing are happening to people all over the world, it seemed to me that your readers deserved to hear the other side of the story, and consider the possibilities for themselves.

Yes, I think asking my by what energy this vision happened is silly. I wasn't being "pissy" (LOL), I was amused and thought it was a bizarre thing to focus on. Looking back at what you wrote, I can see that it wasn't by what power it happened that you were being sarcastic about, but my assumption that our children exist somewhere before birth or conception.

For me this is a moot point. There are hundreds of witnesses of people all around the world who have stated that they have in fact experienced communication of one kind or another with or regarding their yet-to-be-born children. It begs the question, are all these people crazy? Or are they normal people who have had an extraordinary experience that they can no more explain by what power it came than I can?

If so many were the witnesses to a crime, the evidence would be overwhelming. Instead, they, and I, are witnesses of the existence of a spiritual dimension/world/realm beyond the physical one we live in day to day. Taking all the thousands of witnesses and testimonies of those who are otherwise reasonable, normal, honest folk, of all the different kinds of spiritual experiences people have had -- Near-death, prebirth, after-death communications, etc., -- one bit of fact becomes clear -- the possibility that our true nature is eternal; that we exist before our physical births, and we continue to exist after our deaths. Our witness is no more or less evidentiary than a witness to a crime. Only, we're witnessing to something much more cheerful. (grin).

And I do like a good debate :-D, though I don't think I'm very good at it. Definitely fun, though.

Kathy

Kathy, your most recent postings demonstrate to me that you simply want to believe what you want to believe and actual FACTS do not enter into it so far as you are concerned.

Asking what energy a not-yet-conceived being could possibly be using to communicate with you is not a frivolous question at all. It goes to the heart of the problem with your assertion. Every action requires some form of energy; there is no "free lunch" so to speak in this universe, as far as we know.

Again you trot out the notion that since a lot of people believe in pre-birth communication, it must be true. I addressed that when I pointed out that for centuries, most people thought that the Earth was flat. Was it flat but suddenly became round when a majority decided that it WAS round? Also for centuries, people believed that epileptics were "demon possessed." I trust that you realize that epilepsy is a physical condition. Belief has NOTHING whatsoever to do with reality. Things either are or aren't.

Many people believe they have been abducted by aliens. Well, I guess, according to you, they must have been despite any actual PROOF.

Are you starting to see the problem yet?

Kathy said:

"If it's proof in a court of law, then reason demands those witnesses to at least be considered by the jury. Twelve witnesses, or thirteen if Paul is added in, is a pretty substantial number, or would be in a court of law."

There's at least one problem with your analogy. Courts rarely have to deal with claims which defy the known laws of physics. There is no doubt that a person can kill another person, for example. What is in doubt is whether the person accused of the crime is guilty. That's very different from deciding whether a person can fly under his own power, to pick one example of an extraordinary claim.

Also, you may not be aware that juries are often told that the number of people on one side of a case versus the number of people on the other side shouldn't be considered proof of anything.

By asking for proof of extraordinary claims, we ARE considering them, not dismissing them out of hand. We're saying, "If you can prove your claim under controlled conditions, we will accept it as truth." Isn't that perfectly reasonable?

Hello Cranky Media Guy

I am writing on and researching the Pre-birth concept, so I discovered this site. Okay, I am not American so maybe I just don't get the repetitious argument with words and representations like: proof, belief, disbelief, probably, and in my opinion. Oh

No it is not, because there are events that happen with in our world that can not be explained, and may not be even proven except by the hole Idea that you had to be there to see it for yourself. Some times events happen and we can not prove it to anyone but those that are expericing it with the person. So when it comes to proff I think we should keep that in mind as well, and not just dash aways something that could have very well happened. :coolcheese: :exclaim: :zip: 😕

All i can say on the matter is that i am a normal women who is not a devoted catholic, yet i have dreamt my children, either while pregnant with them or before they were concieved.

I know it was not my imagination, as it was like an out of body experience. My children look exactly the same now as they appeared in my dreams.

I say dont knock something if you have not experienced it.

Paula said:

"All i can say on the matter is that i am a normal women who is not a devoted catholic, yet i have dreamt my children, either while pregnant with them or before they were concieved."

Unfortunately, Paula, your subjective experience doesn't really prove anything. First, we don't know that you actually DID dream that your children would look exactly as it turned out they did. The mind is a funny thing; it's possible that you "redacted" the appearance of the children in your dream.

Also, isn't it reasonable to assume that your children either resemble you or their father or a combination of the two of you? That would be typical, so it would hardly be amazing that you would picture them that way. Also, at exactly what age were they when you decided that they "looked exactly like" what you had dreamed? Children's appearances DO change over time, after all.

"I know it was not my imagination, as it was like an out of body experience."

So, how does that "prove" that it wasn't your imagination? Isn't it at least possible that an "out-of-body experience" could be imagined?

"I say dont knock something if you have not experienced it."

I'm not "knocking" anything. I'm asking questions about something which appears to violate the known laws of physics.

When a person makes a claim about pre birth existance they do so in the hope that someone out there will understand and hopefully come across someone that can reassure them that they are not "Going Crazy" How suprised I was this evening for me to pick up where I left off a couple of years ago, I thought I would come online and do a bit of research on what I myself feel I have experienced. in the hope some more information is out there, I was lead to about.com and found an in depth article on PBE and part of a paragragh that I had written on Prebirth.com quite a while ago,it had been a long time since I had seen those words. I have not been able to find the article for years. I don't know how to percieve the experience I have had, is it a past life, all I know is I am not meant to remember, but I was and still am determined to remember. there is much more to this life than physical matter

Gen said:

"I don't know how to percieve the experience I have had, is it a past life, all I know is I am not meant to remember, but I was and still am determined to remember."

What does "not meant to remember" mean? Are you saying that someone or something is deliberately trying to keep you from remembering something that happened before you were born?

The biggest objection to a "pre-birth memory" is that humans have no organ or faculty that is able to record memories at that stage. To the best of our knowledge, it simply isn't any more possible to record something at that point than it would be to walk.

"there is much more to this life than physical matter"

Well, yes, that's true, but no one really disputes that. The question is WHAT non-physical things exist. Memories and feelings, for example, aren't "physical," but there's no question of their existance. That, however, does NOT prove that any specific memory is an actually recollection of a real event.

I had prebirth exprience but i did not talk with anyone. Just one mysterios person. There was some holes in the ground where i could choose my life. Only 2 holes was left. Both lifes were cruel. I choosed the better one. I wanted to be female. It worked. I meeted the other life as i was in kindergarten. It was a boy. Some months younger as me. But still...

It was nOT my dream it was real and YES i think i am special because this is not a trick this was REAL.

Or does anyone know how to call THAT?

Al said:

"It was nOT my dream it was real and YES i think i am special because this is not a trick this was REAL."

Al, your belief in something, no matter how sincere it may be, is NOT proof that it is real.

For centuries, many people sincerely believed that the Earth was flat. They were simply wrong, despite their sincere belief.

1. My name is Ai ^^

2. It was my first memory... i remember it so clearly... what should i do anyway? Nobody belive me...

At the first time i saw my parents i thought : I hate you all. And who are you? (I mean my parents)

I mean... hey it was no dream. I said to myself : This is not a dream . I will never forget this. I remember as i taked my first steps... i remember beeing in the thing where little kids are... i remember running away from home because i hated my family so much. I did not trust anyone!

Hi,

I am a microbiologist, chemist, and a physician (clinical pathologist) and have more than 10 years of post-college education, and publish articles in peer reviewed journals, and understand the scientific method. However, I also have a pre-birth memories, and only recently found, using the internet, that my memories are very similar to others'experiences and also to many near-death experiences. Specifically, I remember, in 3 dimensions, being a spirit, wanting to see God, seeing Jesus, and then having my life "preview" displayed on large TV-like screens. I was then told my memory would be erased (but I resisted), and then was placed inside of my fetal body in my moher's womb. Using the internet, I have discovered that this same sequence is experienced by others. My memory is not due to something that I read on the web, because the public web didn't exist in 1970, etc. I do not remember choosing my parents, but many people supposedly do. The erasure of memory is called by some - the placing of the "veil of forgetfullness." This is done in heaven so you get more out of life, and learn its lessons, but don't have your spiritual prebirth memories to help you out. If you visit the site nde.com (near death experiences), you will find similar stories to mine, except when these people almost died, some went to heaven and saw a life "review" (and not a preview like I did). Nonetheless, on this website, for example, the life review is often displayed on large holographic TV-screens, where you can pause each point in time in your life and discuss it with other spiritual beings. This also happened to me before birth. I remember it - just like I remember being in 1st grade. I also remember communicating telepathically with angle guides/spirits, and god, and this is also a common thread in near death experiences stories. While scientifically, when dying, brain anoxia may produce a "tunnel" that people remember going through, - my pre-birth memories are entirely different. My memories are composed of visual images, and conversations, and my feelings involved. While it is clear that human evolution has occurred, your spirit does inhabit your primate body. Life is a test and an environment to make you grow spiritually, and learn to love others unconditionally - so you can be closer to, and be more like God. No one can prove scientifically that god exists. But I know he does - because I met him. And he (Jesus) told me "Go forth my son, I will be with you." And he has been here on earth. What is it like to be around him? It is pure unconditional love, and you never want to leave his light and presence. But I did - I didn't have a choice - I had to be born, and so did everyone else hear on earth. You do get to see the planet earth before you are born.

(continued from previous message)

While I haven't done a statistical analysis, I cannot believe that it is pure chance that so many things that I specifically remember (pre-birth) - are also remembered by others with either pre-birth memories, or by those with near death experiences. What is the explantion for that?
I've remembered my memories since I was 11 years old, in 1975, and at the time, they appeared to be a dream. Now I recognize that it was me being able to remember things pre-birth. Using the internet, I found that it is not uncommon for children to start to remember pre-birth memories, as they get older, at an age when they can underdstand it. So I really don't think it is a hoax, but it is an area that needs to be investigated. More websites need exist - so people can talk about their pre-birth memories. It is certainly not a topic you feel comfortable talking about on the street, but this messsage is my first attempt to tell others about my experiences publicly. Thanks for listening.

Chris said:

"I am a microbiologist, chemist, and a physician (clinical pathologist) and have more than 10 years of post-college education, and publish articles in peer reviewed journals, and understand the scientific method. However, I also have a pre-birth memories, and only recently found, using the internet, that my memories are very similar to others'experiences and also to many near-death experiences. Specifically, I remember, in 3 dimensions, being a spirit, wanting to see God, seeing Jesus, and then having my life "preview" displayed on large TV-like screens. I was then told my memory would be erased (but I resisted), and then was placed inside of my fetal body in my moher's womb."

Are you SERIOUS?

OK, you were not yet born, right? Exactly what sensory organ(s) were you using to have these perceptions with?

If you saw your life previewed--on "large TV-like screens" no less--then you know what's going to happen to you. You should be able to avoid unpleasant experience, like accidents, right? Are you claiming to be able to do that? If not, why not?

Who told you that your memory would be erased and how did you manage to avoid this, since, presumably, the person, spirit or whatever that told it to you would have the power to make it happen.

With all the education you claim to have, have you not done even rudimentary research into "near-death experiences"? If you had, you would have found out that we now know that that sort of thing can be triggered by stimulating parts of the brain electrically. People who have had that done to them report the exact same kind of experiences that those who have had spontaneous NDE's report.

While that doesn't PROVE that NO NDE's are "spiritual," it does strongly suggest that they are merely a physical brain phenomenon.

ofcourse spirits worry about earthly things. spirits live in heaven and are born on earth. they are coming to live on this planet, why wouldnt they worry about earthly affairs? as someone who was conscious before birth i can tell anyone with an open mind we exist before this life and after it as well. to everyone else your not supposed to know this truth so just go on and live obliviously its the path nature intended for you. youll know the truth when you get there by your self.

also to people that are like "i dont believe in god because you cant prove it to me, and the burden of proof is on you" no, the burden of proof is on god and as in the first paragraph i stated, if god has no interest in you knowing of his existence nothing anyone can say or do will convince you, so just live your lives and let other people live theirs.

wow i just realized there was a second page. oh well maybe cranky media guy has found a girlfriend and has moved on in life and doesn't have to go flame people on the net to feel good about himself.

Sorry to disappoint you, 1, but I'm still here.

Exactly how did I "flame" anyone?

All I've done is ask reasonable questions.

One of the main ones I've asked is what sensory organs are used in these alleged pre-birth experiences. You DO realize that, in most cases, the human body is not fully formed until just prior to birth, yes?

Sorry that my merely asking some simple questions seems to upset you so.

Could that possibly be because you can't answer them?

Hi Cranky Media Guy -

Sorry for my previous spelling typos.
To answer your questions:
Are you SERIOUS? Yes.

OK, you were not yet born, right? Exactly what sensory organ(s) were you using to have these perceptions with? There were no organs, and I had no body that I could remember or detect. Close your eyes, put earplugs on, and blinders on, and you will still "perceive" yourself - without any sensory input. I could still see, and I communicated telepathically.

If you saw your life previewed--on "large TV-like screens" no less--then you know what's going to happen to you. You should be able to avoid unpleasant experience, like accidents, right?
No. Some of my memories are "foggy" (both visually, and via recall), but I do remember some scenes on the TVs. I specifially did not want to look at my death - i.e. how I was going to die.

Are you claiming to be able to do that? If not, why not? No. See explation above. I can honestly tell you that I have met, in this life, someone I saw on the "TV" screen, when I was 19 years old - note my prebirth memories started coming back at age 11.

Who told you that your memory would be erased and how did you manage to avoid this, since, presumably, the person, spirit or whatever that told it to you would have the power to make it happen. Right before I went into a dark tunnel to be born, I was "speaking" to a being. I remembered this event recently after thinking about the words "veil of forgetfullness" that are posted on the web. I remember having a telepathic conversation (they all were), and that I was told that I wouldn't remeber anything, but I thought to myself, "oh yes, I am going to remember and not forget this." I think the being was putting something over me - as this scene occurred. Guess my plan worked!

Hi Cranky Media Guy (cont.) -

I haven't had time to research what I remember from a scientific standpoint, but no doubt, I've heard about out of body experiences occurring after eletrical stimulation of the brain. But my memories are persistent, and I remember them sequentially. I was called forth, I had no body, I spoke with 3 beings, then Jesus, then I went to a different area with the "TV" screens, saw my life preview (and by the way I just learned what to call it from the web - i.e. a "life preview"). I communicated telepathically - the beings weren't tlaking, but they were communicating with me - you may not understand what that felt like this until you experience it! And seeing from above earth - I was afraid to be born, and thought "I certainly don't want to go to that place!" Could you blame me?

I think the theory of evolution is fact, and understand that skepticism and impartiality can assist the scientific method - but my memories are simply just that. You telling me I didn't remember the events I describe is like me telling you that you don't remember who your parents are. (hopefully you do). Nonetheless, thank goodness for the Cranky Media Guy - there is nothing wrong with anyone being skeptical.

Hi Cranky media guy - (cont.)

Finally, I always remembered traveling down a dark tunnel before being placed into my fetal body. I only recently recalled the conversation with the being about "forgeting everything." And that is my point, I'm recalling a past event, and with further reflection, I can remember further detail - but the "framework" of the memory stays constant. I just pulled up the webiste using google tonight, and it is the first time I've ever seen it. The story in this link is very similar to mine. How can others share my experiences? Yes, I was also able to float outside of my fetal body at times, too. From what I have read on the web, it takes a while to meld the spirit and physical body together.
http://www.beyondreligion.com/su_personal/pbes-heaven.htm

From February 1995 to February 1998, I worked directly outside the White House on Pennsylvania Ave. in Washington, D.C.

One of the fascinating things I learned while working there is that the White House is a magnet for "crazy" people from all over America who come there, convinced that they have to tell the President something.

I knew not one but two people who were convinced they were the Second Coming of Christ. I also knew a very nice man who absolutely believed that the government had put a "chip" inside his head which forced him to hear the thoughts of everyone around him. Another man I knew was absolutely sure that he was being spied on by the CIA and the Post Office.

Each of these people was completely certain of what they believed and no logical argument nor fact could dissuade them of it.

My point here is that certainty is not the same as certitude. A person can be absolutely sure of something which simply is not true.

It's not your certainty which is in question, it's your veracity.

I have no doubt you believe you "saw" ephemeral beings who communicated with you telepathically and so forth. In the absence of any facts to back that up, however, there's no reason to accept what you say as real.

Hi Cranky Media Guy 2 -

Sorry again for my typos.
First, I am a scientist, and skeptic, and completely understand a person being an atheist.
You aren't talking to an intelegent design specialist or creationist here. I hardly wish to go to the White House, to see the president, unless I give him a devine message i.e., to "get out - you have already done enough damage to the country." (ha ha)

What I can truthfully tell you is that I had the memories /dreams when I was 11 years old. I only told my grandmother about them in 1986, becasue I was too embarressed, and thought no one would believe me. Only since searching on the internet and typing in the words "remembering before you were born" into Google, did I discover that there were others like me with a similar "universal dream or memory" Now you are probably too young to remember Dark Shadows", but there was a "dream curse, and universal dream. How does that happen? Brain anoxia doesn't explain all of the similar details.

Hi Cranky Media Guy 2 -

Also, not everyone's pre-birth memories are the same. I did not see streets of gold, or magnificent buildings in heaven, as some claim to have experienced (search the web for their stories). Most of the areas that I remember were dark. However, when I've read similar stories, I can tell I was in the same place that others were.
(very freaky ..!)

Here is the correct website for you to visit: http://www.near-death.com (not nde.com). In it the web host writes:
At some point millions of years ago, souls descended upon these ape-men and began influencing [them] to come down out of the trees and eventually form societies. Then souls began inhabiting the bodies of these ape-men. Thus, the dawn of humanity arose on this planet.

I am impressed by this website, and it is hardly traditional christianity. I was finally able to meld what I remember plus religion and science. The website contains so many stories similar to mine too, but the are NDEs. Very difficlut to explain by shear coincidence ..
So, in summary, I'm just making you aware that some sane people do have these memories, and they are full of detail, much more than dreaming that you are able to fly, for example ...

Hi Cranky Media Guy 2 -

Finally, I simply point you to someone who wrote on this website 2 years ago (see message above), who I do not even know. They wrote:

"When a person makes a claim about pre birth existance they do so in the hope that someone out there will understand and hopefully come across someone that can reassure them that they are not "Going Crazy" ... I thought I would come online and do a bit of research on what I myself feel I have experienced ...I don't know how to percieve the experience I have had, is it a past life, all I know is I am not meant to remember, but I was and still am determined to remember. there is much more to this life than physical matter
Posted by Gen in Australia on Wed Sep 06, 2006 at 05:05 AM

Gee - this person, who lives a continent away from me, was "not meant to remember?" Also they write "I was (and still am) determined to remember"

Sounds just a little bit like my experience???

Sorry, but here is the exact link.
I think this guy is onto something ...

http://www.near-death.com/about.html

Thanks ...

P.S.

In the above link he talks about the ape men and souls, and how he intergated Christianity with NDE research findings, etc., and obviously evolution...

The truth is out there - and there is nothing wrong with trying to find it ...

Just to clarify, I wasn't citing my experiences with the people outside the White House to imply that you are crazy. What I was trying to say is that sincere belief does not constitute proof that what you believe is real.

For much of the nine-month gestation period humans experience, the organs are not fully formed. As far as science can determined, the "pre-born" cannot form or retain memories of anything.

When you get into "pre-birth memory," you're veering into Scientology Territory. Check into the wacky Scientology concept of the "engram" sometime if you're so inclined.

No, there's absolutely nothing wrong with looking for Truth, but that doesn't mean that you should adopt any old theory that presents itself.

Hey Cranky... i can call you cranky okay? I am living at Austria and i must really say i know nearly nothing of the scientology. i hate them because i heard that they want money money money. I can really tell you i did not brought an idea up! It are my memories! Its not a lie! What if we are right? Its okay if you do not belive it but please you would do me and the others a big favor if you would write "If this would be true, then..."
Please add it. >_< It would be very nice from you! Pleaaase! Because if you do not i feel like you would spott about us.

Hi Ai,

I have some questions for you.
What was the first pre-birth memory that you remember? Where were you pre-birth? Did you have a body? Was it light or dark around you? Did you communicate with anyone? Was anyone next to you?
Please write as much as you can about what you remember.

Thank you,

Chris

I was in a dark place. I do not know where i was but from the memories i can tell i was in a hole.
I think i have seen one person. Only one. It did not said anything. I just had a feeling i have to choose now. I had to choose my life. I have 2 lives where i could choose from. One male, one female. I choose female but i did not know why, i just did it. i knowed i would have a fucked up live so gender does not matter. I saw something like this

but more darker. I looked at it and i saw it somehow... i think i saw something like fog. But it was not fog. DUnno what IT was. i was so angry as i choosed. and i feelt sad (I dunno how to say it... i feel beeing sad in my back, but did not know back then what feeling sad mean. The next was i was in the hospital... some woman has wash me... then someone used this Scissor. I was so scared! I did not cry like other babies! I know it! i asked my mother if this is true and she sad: As you was newborn, you did not cry. THe people were very worried. But i did not feel like need to be cry.

But as i saw my parents the first time i thought: ???? some very very bad feeling. I know now it was anger. I hate humans till now. I wish i would be alone all the time. I can not befriend with people. I have problems now because i do not know if you people are real. I can not trust someone of you! Its a very hard life.

i tell more next time but now i have to stop because i have to prepare school for today.

Ai, exactly what organs were you experiencing this with? You DO realize that your sensory organs, like the rest of your body, were not fully developed while you were gestating, yes?

I do not know how i did "see" that! I have no idea! i would lie if i would say with my eyes. I know i experienced it- i do not know how. But I know i did.

Dear Ai and Crank Media Guy,

Ai - thanks for your story. Yours is similar to mine - I didn't want to be born either (or go to earth), but I was more dreading it and fearful than angry. Obviously, you were angry.
Did you have a sense that you had to be born, and go to earth, in order to learn lessons? To me the "hole" you describe, may have been the tunnel that I traveled through - to get into my fetal body. Do you think you entered the hole to get to earth? Your story of having to choose your life (hole) rings true to me, and many accounts I have read have people(souls) making a choice of which life to live - before they were born.

Hi Cranky - I know you are placing a lot of emphasis on physical organs, and also on what people believe. I can only tell you with utmost truthfulness and sincerity, that I visually remember my experiences pre-birth, just like any other memory I have - even of Obama and McCain. I "believe" that evolution occurred, but I have no memory of it (nor does any other sane person on earth). Beliefs and memories are very different. However, I do have pre-bitrh memories.
I cannot explain how or why. The very fact that ohers do have similar memories, even in Austria, is very strange, at the very least. I wish the person from Australia would write something again, because I think my memories might be similar to his/hers. Thanks!! Chris

P.S. Cranky -

What I have read on the web (and also remember) is that your soul enters your body before birth. It is the soul that can remember things without a physical body or mature brain. I know that sounds crazy, but it is what happened to me. Also, from reading items on the web, some accounts explained to me why I could rememeber being outside of my fetal body at times and could see things around me. If you read about pre-birth "stories" it supposidly takes a while for the soul to "meld" with the physical body, pre-birth and perinatally, and postnatally. So, the fetus could be immature neuologically, but memories are maintained by the soul. I know this "body" and "soul" businees must seem so silly, but, had I not had my experiences, I might also dismiss the accounts. You can only tell you the truth .
I always try to - believe me it is my personality type to do so ... Thanks for listening ...

P.S.S. Cranky -

I doubt that Ai read my previous message and went to the link I posted previously on this website : http://www.beyondreligion.com/su_personal/pbes-heaven.htm.

Don't you think it is weird that the account on the website above stated:

"We were standing in front of some kind of opening that looked almost like the mouth of a cave. ... Then I noticed that there was an individual who was going to escort me into the cave-like structure. Perhaps this is the same tunnel that NDE people recall. I believe that we have to go through that same tunnel to be born.

I remember entering this dark tunnel and being escorted by a being who also exuded love and peace. I noticed the presence of others in the tunnel also, but could not see what they were doing. Finally, I remember looking at my small body, and next thing I remember, I was being born."

By the way, I also remember something almost exactly similar - and I don't do mind altering drugs, etc... (Ha Ha)!

Chris said:

"What I have read on the web (and also remember) is that your soul enters your body before birth. It is the soul that can remember things without a physical body or mature brain. I know that sounds crazy, but it is what happened to me."

Well, if you read it on the web, it MUST be true. I mean, we all know that nothing on the Internet is false.

At one point, you quote Ai's "pre-birth memory" and talk about how similar it is to yours as evidence of the reality of the alleged phenomenon.

But earlier, you said:

"Also, not everyone's pre-birth memories are the same. I did not see streets of gold, or magnificent buildings in heaven, as some claim to have experienced (search the web for their stories). Most of the areas that I remember were dark. However, when I've read similar stories, I can tell I was in the same place that others were.
(very freaky ..!)"

There, you are saying that the fact that other people's "pre-birth experience" is DIFFERENT from yours proves their legitimacy.

Which is it?

i know the website from a long time now which you linked.I do not belive in god. But if it was God, God is an =?"= for such a live what i have.! I know i did not feel beeing loved or something. BUT WHY!
Even if god was real would not he do something to say sorry? if he doesnt he is just like people who do bad things at people and never say sorry! i just do not want to be one of the people he can play with. i am not a fucking toy where someone can play with. i do not want to learn those lessons. "if god was real" i hope i have my personality still in "heaven" i will tell him what he does to individuals who does not remember it. Because at this moment, people are not longer supposed to learn lessons. Humans are humans and not souls. Souls are getting supported. Humans not really. So you can say god is bullying us...
I am busy right now, so i will send more what i think later
(me, if i would belive in god, but i do not belive in god)

Hi Ai and Cranky Media Guy -

OK - Cranky - yes, from what I have read, people's pre-birth experiences can be different. However, mine matches with many people's accounts, and it seems to me that it is a matter of how much a person is able to recall. As I have emphasized, the multiple similarities one finds when reading the accounts, i.e. - communicating telepathically with spiritual beings or guides, seeing earth from above, seeing a life preview in a book and/or projected on TV like screens, selecting your life, having your memory erased, passing through a tunnel (or cave) before birth, floating outside of your fetal body, etc., are just too many items that exactly match what I remember. Like I said, it is not like all of us with pre-birth memories had a dream about being able to fly ... most people have that flying dream, but I highly doubt the above listed items could, by chance alone, all be experienced by others. So, I have answered your question. The pre-birth memories are bascially the same, but people remember parts of what happened better than others. The theme is consistent. The fact that near death experiences accounts are "extensions" of what pre-birth memories are - is even more amazing, and makes it even more unlikely that pre-birth memories are false.

Hi Ai and Cranky Media Guy - continued ...

Also, Cranky ... note here that I believe in evolution and Ai doesn't even believe in God. It is not like we are religious nuts, going on a crusade.

Ai - what I have to say to you is important.
First, some of my ancestors lived in or near Austria! I am really am very sorry that your life has been so very difficult. I can only say that other people do care, and wish the best for you, even though they may not know you - e.g. people like myself. I can only tell you what I know. While Cranky doesn't believe us i.e. about our memories, you know what you have remembered and experienced. I'm telling you the truth about what I remember. There is a God, and because he/she is just that, God gets to "call all of the shots" and decide everything. It is not fair to us per se, but we need to think in the long term and not just the short term. We were all sent here to experience earth and to learn from it. My life has been difficult too - but maybe not as bad as yours. Neither one of us wanted to be born. It is difficult not to be resentful. However, if you try to believe in God and trust in him, and try to do your best and treat others kindly, you will escape your current misery - maybe in this life, and better things lie ahead for you in the afterlife. That is your mission. I was born to tell you it again in this message today. Good luck! And Cranky - my message parallels just about every Christian, Jewish, and Islamic religious belief, so please don't bash me here for making a religious statement. As I have told you - my memories are part of the basis for me believing in God. Maybe I would be very doubtful without them too ...

belive me... i am still nice even if i do not like humans. If someone has problems i help them with all my power... but I HATE them still. if some "neonazi" shows up in my near they flee because they know what i think about people who drawing those signs! Even if i do not like humans i help them with all my power... dunno why i am doing that. But in real i just want to be alone. the only things i am doing are reading books, looking anime, read manga, playing with my animals.
i just want that this shit somehow ends for me. But not suicide (had often thought about it, but it is not the solution (my "mother" have try it so often now, i am not scared, lol, she was about 50 times at the hospital))

i think i want to be alone so long as possible.. not really much people can cheer me up.. only the really insane, hysteric people who bring me to laught are okay for me.

But as far as i remember my life can not really be happy. Crap is i know my life is not going to be good. So it makes no sense to make any hopes.

why should i concentrate on making friends etc when i KNOW i will really bad end? (hehe i met the other "life where i could choose from at school." he is not father. (only 18 year old and the baby is already around 3. (I do not like babies)

Hi Ai,

Thanks for your message. Well, I agree that some humans can be very disappointing, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to be alone. However, I try not to hate anyone.

Can you answer my previous questions, please? I'm just curious. Here they are again:

Did you have a sense that you had to be born, and go to earth, in order to learn lessons?

To me the "hole" you describe, may have been the tunnel that I traveled through - to get into my fetal body. Do you think you entered the hole to get to earth?

Do you remember anything else pre-birth?

Thank you,

Chris

no. I just knowed there is a place where i do not like to go. there was no feeling i have to learn lessons. It was feeling like a punishment somehow.
And yes. It could have been a cave.. but i just remember seen the holes. and those creepy feelings