The Museum of Hoaxes
A Postal-Mail Chain Letter?
Posted By:
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Nov 14, 2004
 I received this chain letter in my mailbox:

Dear Friend,
Greetings: I am a retired attorney. A few years ago a man came to me with a letter. He asked me to verify the fact that this was legal to do. I told him I would review it and get back to him. When I first red the letter my client brought me, I thought it was some "off-the-wall" idea to make money. A week and a half later we met in my office to discuss the issue. I told him the letter he originally brought me was not 100% legal. My client then asked me to later it to make it perfectly legal. I asked him to make one small change in the letter.

***
It goes on for another 2 pages about how if you send $1 to the 6 names on the list & you will make $800,000.00 in just 3 months. You pay for a list of names to send letters to. I KNOW this is a scam. I just can't figure out how I got it. It came to me at my married name (junk-mail tends to come to my maiden name), & it came to my actual house address. (My driver's license lists my PO Box & if you look me up at the DMV, the physical address is actually my prior residence...haven't had time to change it yet.) The phone & electric aren't registered in my name, they're registered to my husband. (There's not a water bill, we have a well.)

What I wanna know is: How did this come to me, with my correct name at my current physical address??? The 'person' who sent the letter is: Mr. Louis Jordan/1234 Shakespeare Avenue/Apt # 2E/Bronx, NY 10452

Also, a co-worker recently had someone slip this same letter under his door at his apartment building...Anyone hear anything about this??
Category: Scams; Replies: 1759

Comments
Page 12 of 30 pages ‹ First  < 10 11 12 13 14 >  Last ›
Dixie
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 | 02:53 PM
HA....Looks like Im not the only one who thinks your legal mumbo jumbo is bad advice.....Illigal was a mere typo but your posts are clearly Dimwitted...absurd and totally fiction based on your own misinformed ideals. This letter offers a service for an exchange of money...not money for money...Have you even read the letter????? It doesnt seem like it....Oh I guess you were referring to a different letter...Maybe your just plain WRONG....Youll never admit it though..Too much false pride.
Dixie
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 | 03:00 PM
Jason in NM said "Media Cranky Guy. I just thought you should read this from the US Postal service about what constitutes a legal letter and an illegal letter. Rather than have you continue to give out bad legal advice, I thought this might clear it up for you. http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/chainlet.htm"

I know what your thinking Jason but Cranky has read this link and somehow basis his idea that this is ILLEGAL upon this very link....Absurd as it must sound he is totally backwards from what the USP says.....Amazing
Dixie
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 | 03:13 PM
I really dont want to argue about whether its legal or not...Most folks(if they are like me)just want to know results....Not someones idea on whats morally right or an assumption on whether or not its legal....But that brings us back to the fact that success stories are never seen and must be deleted by someone...must be a member who does it...Cranky, Your the only member I've seen here in a while...Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 | 06:12 PM
Dixie said:

"This letter offers a service for an exchange of money...not money for money."

From the Postal Service's website:

"Do not be fooled if the chain letter is used to sell inexpensive reports on credit, mail order sales, mailing lists, or other topics. The primary purpose is to take your money, not to sell information. "Selling" a product does not ensure legality."

That bears repeating:

"'Selling'" a product does not ensure legality."

As I asked you recently, why don't you send a copy of your "legal" chain letter to the Postmaster General and ask his opinion of its legality?

I mean, you aren't AFRAID of what you'd be told, are you?

If the Postmaster General said that it was legal, that would sure shut my mouth, wouldn't it?

"But that brings us back to the fact that success stories are never seen and must be deleted by someone...must be a member who does it...Cranky, Your the only member I've seen here in a while...Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm"

Something stuck in your throat? Boy, talk about adding 2 plus 2 and getting 5. As I've said before, I have never deleted a posting on this site EVER. Hey, here's an idea: why don't you contact Alex, the owner of the site and ASK HIM if I've ever done that? Oh, that's right, I forgot; you don't like FACTS since it's SO much more fun to just construct conspiracy theories.

You know why "success stories are never seen"? Because the only people who make money from chain letters are the PEOPLE WHO START THEM AND PUT THEIR NAMES AT THE TOP OF THE LIST.

You have the ability to ABSOLUTELY PROVE that I'm wrong about chain letters and lying about removing postings from this thread yet for some reason, you don't use it. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Dixie
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 | 08:18 AM
Cranky Said "As I asked you recently, why don't you send a copy of your "legal" chain letter to the Postmaster General and ask his opinion of its legality?"

I would be wasting my time at the Postmasters office........


From the Postal Service Link---
"Neither the Postal Service nor Postal Inspectors give prior approval to any chain letter."

Cranky, I dont know Adam from Eve, but if he is the owner and you know him, then that in itself furthers the idea that you have the ability to pick and choose posts..

Crnky said "You have the ability to ABSOLUTELY PROVE that I'm wrong about chain letters and lying about removing postings from this thread yet for some reason, you don't use it. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm..

The reason why Cranky is that..I dont care whether you are right or wrong...As I said before...I am here to find out results and not to argue with you over whether your legal mumbo jumbo is correct...Why do you insist on validation from others...If you know your right then so be it...From what ive heard you cannot say that this particular letter is illEgal.
Dixie
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 | 08:23 AM
Correction---Alex from Eve.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 | 06:08 PM
Dixie said:

"I would be wasting my time at the Postmasters office........

"From the Postal Service Link---
'Neither the Postal Service nor Postal Inspectors give prior approval to any chain letter.'"

But you aren't asking them to APPROVE it, you're asking them if it's LEGAL. OK, since you don't want to ask the person in the best position to tell you what's what, why not just ask an attorney? Oh, wait...

"As I said before...I am here to find out results and not to argue with you over whether your legal mumbo jumbo is correct."

And as I'VE said, you don't care if it's illegal, just so long as you personally profit from it. As a fifth-grader could see, any profit that could theoretically derive from a chain letter can only come from other participants who lose THEIR money. But I realize that kind of thing is "legal mumbo jumbo" to you.

At the risk of repeating myself, you have ZERO interest in the facts here. You accuse me irrationally of deleting postings from "successful" chain letter participants but when I give you an easy to way to find out if that's true, you can't be bothered. It's SO much fun to accuse people of things even when you have NO evidence, isnt it?

When I explain that you can go to any decent-sized library and find numerous books about scams, including chain letters, which will explain the whole thing to you OR that you could ask an attorney or even the Postmaster General, you have more pressing things to do, apparently.

You want ME to do the generally impossible, prove a negative, when YOU have the burden of proof to show that this chain letter is the magical, elusive exception to the illegality of its species. You have the far simpler task, but you don't shoulder that burden BECAUSE YOU DON'T CARE IF IT'S ILLEGAL.

It really is a shame what greed can to a person's moral compass. And that's not "legal mumbo jumbo."
Dixie
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 | 09:38 AM
Cranky said "At the risk of repeating myself, you have ZERO interest in the facts here. You accuse me irrationally of deleting postings from "successful" chain letter participants but when I give you an easy to way to find out if that's true, you can't be bothered. It's SO much fun to accuse people of things even when you have NO evidence, isnt it?

When I explain that you can go to any decent-sized library and find numerous books about scams, including chain letters, which will explain the whole thing to you OR that you could ask an attorney or even the Postmaster General, you have more pressing things to do, apparently.

You want ME to do the generally impossible, prove a negative, when YOU have the burden of proof to show that this chain letter is the magical, elusive exception to the illegality of its species. You have the far simpler task, but you don't shoulder that burden BECAUSE YOU DON'T CARE IF IT'S ILLEGAL."

Cranky I do have interest in the fact of whether or not this letter can produce results...I dont believe it is illegal...I never accused anyone directly but you seem to take the defensive position on more than one occasion...How say you that I have the burden of proving this is legal??? I am here for an answer on whether or not this can produce results...I do care IF this is illegal...As I have stated before "YOU Havent proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to me that it is illegal...As you stated..I havent proven that it is legal...So all in all we are at a stand still and niether of us have enough facts to say yay or nay.....Nor do we know that this cannot work...Without success stories or stories of failed attempts I continue to be in the same position I have started from...In wonder...I really dont want to take the chance on losing money or getting arrested and dont have enough information to sway my decision for or against attempting to try....
Tonya
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 | 06:36 AM
Well, let me just say that I am proof that it works. People get your name from "Opportunity Seekers" lists. I was on a list from somewhere and I am glad I received the letter, because I was looking for a great HOME BASED BUSINESS.
So, I started my mail-order business. It really is not a chain-letter. You are advertising a service of "Adding people to your mailing list". If they want to be on your list, they send you a dollar, if not they throw it out. lol Not that hard to do.
The SCAMS request money without a service, they tell you to only send money to the TOP PERSON, etc.... but my letter came and i was skeptical too. But, I stepped out on faith and I am working on my second direct mail effort for my Mail Order Business. People are so afraid of "scams" that they dont to ACTUAL research on their own....lol i find that funny.

Well...take care!
Tracedog
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 | 07:25 AM
Tonya,
Sounds great, but I'm not clear on how your thing works. Help.

So I send you a dollar to be put on your mailing list. What's in it for me? I mean, how would I make money off being on your mailing list? Do I start my own mailing list? If so, What's the purpose of being on your mailing list?
I'm not sure I understand here. What's the mailing list for in the first place, other than just the privilage of being on it?
Dixie
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 | 08:10 AM
Tonya Said "Well, let me just say that I am proof that it works."

I understand about the mail order part of this...but...How much????? How much cash have you recieved???? Very curious....Also could you inform us step by step what you did???
Dixie
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 | 08:12 AM
Where are you Cranky????

What are your thoughts????
Dixie
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 | 10:09 AM
Tonya Said "So, I started my mail-order business. It really is not a chain-letter. You are advertising a service of "Adding people to your mailing list". If they want to be on your list, they send you a dollar, if not they throw it out. lol Not that hard to do."

USPS Says ""Do not be fooled if the chain letter is used to sell inexpensive reports on credit, mail order sales, mailing lists, or other topics. The primary purpose is to take your money, not to sell information. "Selling" a product does not ensure legality."

Still no real info.....
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 | 11:30 AM
I'm here, but I'm sick at the moment. I may be absent for a few days. Continue without me in the interim.
Talk about being bored!
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 | 08:58 AM
:sick: Wow Cranky you have been talking about the same thing for years, I mean really, Do you have anything better to do? Like Shower, work, sleep, call a friend or relative or go on vacation? You must be one lonely soul! All you're doing is insulting the intelligence of various individuals and your getting nasty. I mean come on, everything I have read has been opinionated so therefore no one needs to be rude about it. What your stating is half fact half fiction because all of the links you are providing all have many loopholes in them. If you know about the law when there is a loophole there is a way "out". So what someone needs to figure out is how can it be stopped if it is harming others, as you say! Actually, since you have so much time on your hands, I think you are a perfect candidate! Go ahead get to working and figure out how to truly make this 100% legal! Have fun! But from what I see you will still be talking about the same chain letter for the next 4 years also instead of doing something about it....Ha Ha Ha...As for others on the forum, you dont even know this Cranky, stop asking his opinion like it really matters or something move on with your lives...
Dixie
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 | 08:52 AM
Well Cranky, Are you anywhere around....I got this today...A scam for sure...



AMERICAN GOLF LOTTERY PROGRAMME
IOWA,USA

Attention: Sir / Madam,

Congratulations on your winning.


All participants were selected randomly from World Wide Web
Site through computer ballot system extracted from over
100,000 companies and individuals. This promotion takes
Place annually.


Your email address attached to ticket number: 56475600545
188 with serial number: 5388/02 drew the lucky numbers
31-6-26-13-35-7, which subsequently won you the lottery in
the second category.

You have therefore won us from the lottery $2.5m dollars as
your winning prize.


You are required to forward the following details to help
Facilitate the processing of your certificate and the
Release of your winnings.


1. Full names.
2. Residential address.
3. Phone number.
4. A scanned identification of yourself sent via email
5. Occupation.


You are advised to forward this information as soon as
Possible to enable us attend to your file.
Please note that your funds have been deposited safely in
our offshore payment office in Europe and your information
will be forwarded to them before they can release your
Winnings. You are also to choose the mode that you want to
collect your funds:


PAYMENT OPTIONS.
I. Travel down to personally collect it from our agent.
II. This is for those who c an not travel we will process the winnings
and then package and send it via courier service but you will
have to PAY FOR THE SERVICES.


You are to contact:
Mr. David Young
Financial Agent (USA)
Telephone Number: 718 873 0639
Email Contact: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Once again congratulations.

Sincerely,

Mr. John Irvin
PROTOCOLS AND GRAND (FOR
OVERSEAS LOTTERY INTERNATIONAL.)
NB: PLEASE INDICATE A PAYMENT OPTION





Looking for a job?
Post Jobs and Search Resumes
on Monster.com
http://offer.enterto.com/165/

__________________________________________

Click below to DELETE/EDIT .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) CHANNEL
http://channels.enterto.com/82270

__________________________________________
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 | 05:27 PM
Yeah, I'm back. I was in the hospital having my appendix removed. Not fun.

Anyway, yeah, to my simple mind, that sure screams "SCAM!" What do I know, though? I'm sure there are people here who would say it's just a perfectly legal mailing list.
me!
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 | 01:22 PM
I recieve a LOT of chain mail! usually emails, from people on my IM contact list, that if you forward this email, then something will happen.

They are bad enough saying that you will have goos luck for he rest of your life, but others threaten that you will die if you do not send them!
Most of them promise that they are true, but none of them are.


Another letter i have recieved a few years ago, is the letter promising that if you forward the letter, you will get your name in the guinness world book of records. I searched this on their website, and they say there is no such official letter! I told my friend that sent me this the next day, although they didnt believe me about this, their name never appeared in the guiness world book of records!

I wanted to put this on here, to stop people from sending then. I have had many emails saying that i am gonna die at midnight if i dont send it to enough people, well i am proof that these are rubbish, because i am still very alive!
Amanda
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 | 08:34 PM
I just got this letter in the mail today, same deal from the attorney about his client. First thing that came to mind is this is too good to be true, usually is a good tell. I noticed inconsistancies throughout the letter like typos, different wording, and it just looked odd. I don't know if I should report it or just throw it away.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 | 01:04 PM
Hi, Amanda. You did a smarr thing to take a critical look at the chain letter you received.

Just ask yourself if chain letters work as claimed, why don't we routinely run into people who are millionarires because of them? Who would work for a living when such easy money was available?

Also, chain letters involving the exchange of money are illegal and have been for decades.

You're certainly free to send it to the Postmaster General in Washington, D.C. if you feel it may help, but simply throwing it away isn't bad either.

If it originated locally to you, you might consider passing it on to a local reporter and watch the fun.
Dixie
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 | 02:40 PM
Amanda......This may not be illegal...Some info we have recieved have stated actual earnings using this program....I have not gotten up the courage to btry...If you try it then please let us know the outcome....Dixie
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 | 12:57 AM
Dixie said:

"This may not be illegal...Some info we have recieved have stated actual earnings using this program."

What do those two statements have to do with each other? Bank robbery is illegal but can be profitable, after all.

What reason do you have to make the statement that it "may not be illegal"? Are you leaning on that old "it's a mailing list" thing? Can you name me a legitimate mailing list that asks people to send money to the name at the top of the list and add their name to the bottom? legitimate mailing lists don't have a "hierarchy" like that; they're for the dissemination of information about legal products and/or services.

If you think I'm wrong about this, you are, of course, free to consult an attorney or the Postmaster General's office, not that I'll hold my breath waiting for THAT to happen.
Dixie
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 | 11:19 AM
Cranky...If you look back in history you will find that many people over time have found loopholes in the law and have exposed them and used them to thier advantage....I believe that there could be a way to make this legal...the mail order thing could very well be that loophole..I am sure that every attempt has been made to overcome the binding laws that prohibit its use...whether or not legality has been obtained I do not know...I do believe that there is a possibility that this letter may be within the peramiters of the law...I dont want to be the one to find out though.. hence I will wait for results as well as proof of legality...One thing I WILL NOT DO is to mislead someone in any direction until I have concrete evidence proving one way or the other..
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 | 01:59 AM
Dixie said:

"I believe that there could be a way to make this legal...the mail order thing could very well be that loophole."

IANAL, but I seriously doubt it. The law in this matter speaks of "intent." It would be VERY difficult, if not impossible, to prove that your intent was anything other than to operate an otherwise illegal chain letter.

Every time these things come around, there are those who think they have invented the wheel vis a vis loopholes. The "it isn't a chain letter, it's a mailing list" thing isn't new and it isn't anything the Postal Service hasn't seen before.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 | 02:00 AM
Think about it: if it was as easy as calling a chain letter a "mailing list" to make it legal, wouldn't you expect to see half-hour infomercials on cable, selling you the "secret" of How To Make Big Money In Your Spare Time?
Kari
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 | 06:28 PM
My husband and I got this letter in the mail yesterday. We were both very intrigued! We have been talking about doing it since then. But after reading this blog I'm getting cold feet. There is also an exact replica of the letter being passed around online through email, which uses pay-pal to get the dollar each time. Is this illegal too? There is no postmaster involved in this instance. Plus no postage to pay for or any other cost besides the initial 6 dollars. What about all that??
dixie
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 | 04:42 PM
There is no fact that states this is illegal or that it cant work....Some say it is and some say it isnt...youll just have to try it.....Let me know how it turns out...Some claim to have made good money doing it...
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 | 05:25 PM
Dixie said:

"There is no fact that states this is illegal or that it cant work."

That simply isn't true. I've given you the exact part of the U.S. Postal Service's website which explains why chain letters are illegal. I've also made the point repeatedly that any decent-sized library will have more than one book about scams which can explain to you exactly why chain letters cannot work as advertised.

You ignore these facts because you want to believe that chain letters involving the exchange of money are legal and can work, no matter how much proof there is to the contrary.

The information is available to anyone who makes even a small effort to obtain it. God forbid you let anything burst that bubble you wish to believe in, however.

I'll ask again. If chain letters work as they always claim they do, why aren't we reading all the time about people who have made millions participating in them? Where are the late night infomercials touting The E-Z Chain Letter Method To Make Big Bucks? Why doesn't the entire economy work on chain letters? Why does anyone bother to have a job and work for a living?
t-bob
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 | 11:14 PM
Does anybody know of any links that substantiate convictions for this type of behavior? I've been googling - and trying to find evidence of any convictions. If his was that important to the US Postal Service, or the FTC, or an Attorney General somewhere, I'd think there would be a bunch of convictions cited, which could be easily found in a google search. Surely with all the letters I've received, somebody must have been tried and convicted by now. Nada! None that I could find on my Google search. Where's the proof CMG?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 | 12:56 AM
t-bob, I think you're confusing illegality with prosecution and conviction. Bank robbery is illegal, but a lot of bank robbers are never caught and convicted.

Are you trying to say that the absence of convictions you claim to have found means that chain letters are not illegal? If so, that is inaccurate.

I keep asking, but I never get an answer. If chain letters are legal, why don't we see books and infomercials telling us how to get rich by running them? Where are the articles in the financial magazines about the successful chain letter operators?

Let me poke around a little bit and see what I can find about chain letter prosecution.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 | 05:50 AM
Here you go:

Maryland Attorney General:

E-Mail Chain Letters
In February 2002, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission cracked down on an Internet chain letter that promised people they would receive "$46,000 or more in the next 90 days." People who received the message were told to send $5 to each of four or five other participants at the top of the list and add their own name to the list.
Kari
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 | 11:33 AM
I decided to throw the letter away. My Dad is a Detective and My Grandfather works closely with lawyers. I asked them both to find out what they could about this particular chain letter. They both came back with the same info. Basically, IF you make a substantial amount of money at this, that would require you to get a gigantic amount of mail. (say you make $200,000. That means you will get 200,000 MORE pieces of mail than you usually would get.) Which looks suspicious to the postal service. The postal service has been trained to report such sudden increase in mail receipt to the Federal Government for investigation. Since there is a lot of people who do this scam, they cannot investigate every single person who sends a chain letter, however they DO investigate those who RECEIVE mail in excess! Most people who ARE successful think they are in the clear after a few months of having their money with no problems, but they are in fact being watched closely by the Feds. Bank accounts, major purchases, money transfer's Etc. My Dad said, that the Fed's don't just arrest you on a hunch, they investigate, they want to see if the person being investigated tries to scam again. So in closing, in participating in this chain letter, you ill either be successful and start to be investigated by the Federal Government, or you will be unsuccessful and loose the money it costs to send out all these chain letters. Sounds like an easy decision or me. I've got a 13 month old son, and I'm pregnant, I can't afford to stir up any trouble for my family. I hope that helps someone make the right decision. If someone still went through with it, I wouldn't judge them. When I was younger I broke the law all the time, but I also got caught a couple times. I'd be lying if I said I had never seen the inside of a jail cell. So it i each individual's chance to take. One that I don't see as worth the risk in any way.
Kari
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 | 11:41 AM
oh, and tbob, about your question, most Federal convictions do not make the news, they are quiet investigations with quiet convictions. And since most people are not too proud of getting convicted of Mail fraud or scamming grandma out of her dollars, the convicted in these cases wouldn't be running to the media. Also, unless you are Martha Stewart it is unlikely that the media will come asking you questions about your federal conviction. Federal convictions are mostly paper crimes. The media is more interested in murder, rape, and the like.
Dixie
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 | 10:32 AM
Everyone says that you will get a Federal Conviction for a simple mailing list buiseness...I dont think so....I also dont believe that this letter is illegal...I think it may be borderlined but not illegal...The main question is...CAN IT PRODUCE RESULTS???? Many people are afraid to try based on biased opinions....Mostly people who havent tried the letter or people who didnt get the results they wanted...I think there are things you could do to make this very illegal...using false names and adresses....or simply not following the directions as stated in the letter...Ive read all the links provided as well as the letter itself and I can find nothing solid or concrete to deter my belief that this is an actual buiseness oppurtunity.
Dixie
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 | 10:43 AM
Kari,

You only live once...What if??? What if this isnt illegal and you didnt try it out of fear or based on Cranky's Assumptions??? What if you missed out on thousands...wouldnt that be wrong knowing that your family needed the money desperately??? Investigated for what...recieving mail???? and even if they did open your mail it would simply be a request from an individual to be on your mailing list....Even if this was illegal...They USPS and the "Feds" would have to catch someone sending the letters out which is all but impossible...Remember...The outgoing letter is what some say is a chain letter...not the incoming requests..I figure there is at least 200 Postal mail boxes in my city alone...the odds are definately in favor of the sender...the incoming mail would have absolutely nothing illegal about them....And so in closing...Even if this was illegal the chance of getting discovered would be very slim.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 | 01:53 PM
Dixie, you are advising someone to engage in an illegal activity. Please stop. What you're doing is not only irresponsible, but illegal.

The fact that you just don't want to believe that chain letters are illegal doesn't change the fact that they ARE illegal.

This isn't about what you want to believe; it's about FACTS.
Mike Hunt
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 | 06:06 PM
I also rec'd this loser letter. Anyone have a link to the 20/20 segment? Since they only provide one example to purchase lists from, someone should be checking out "Names To You" co., they will be making the real money in this scam.
Billy Bob Jimmy Joe Jack
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 | 06:48 PM
Ignorance of the law is no excuse!
Kari
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 | 01:19 AM
Man, Dixie. Surely you can see how you make no sense. Yes you only live once. So why risk the time you have with those you love. It's all about money. Money, money, money. Yes, money s important, but my babies need their Mom. Not a bunch of one dollar bills causing trouble for their family. and that is only if it works. Which from what I can see, is not very often at all. Even if the people on here that say they've made money really did, there is still 20 or more unsuccessful people in between the ones who say they made some money. And yes, I believe that if I got 400,000 letters within a few month time span, it would definitely draw attention. I do live in a small town. Which only has one mailman and a very small post office. But even if I lived in an area that was more populated, I would never, ever risk my children's home, and family for minute possibility of some money. That is what being a responsible parent is all about. If my kids needed anything that I was unable to afford them, (which, in no way are they lacking at this time) Then I will go get another job, sell some of what I have, or stop buying stupid things that I don't need so that they can have what they want/need. Throwing all of our lives on the line for a "what if" just sounds idiotic. But then again, I m a realist. Not a dreamer.
Dixie
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 | 08:26 AM
I have done nothing illegal Cranky....I dont believe this is illegal at all...There are waaaay too many letters going around.....All you people playing the im so innocent role.....this must be a joke...Im outta here..

Cranky said

"Dixie, you are advising someone to engage in an illegal activity. Please stop. What you're doing is not only irresponsible, but illegal."

Your sure making some false alligations now...I havent done anything illegal.....I simply stated my opinion in this matter which I will continue to do....I havent advised anyone to do anything illegal...I simply stated a fact....That this letter isnt illegal and that even if it was it would be hard to get caught...Ive noticed that you tend to make your own legalities to suit....I didnt make this letter nor have I participated in using it..but this is the USA and I got freedom to say whatever the @#$% I want to say within the bounds of the rules of this forum....Put that in your cranky crack pipe and smoke it....
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 | 02:01 PM
Dixie, you are advocating that someone engage in an illegal activity. This isn't about what you BELIEVE. If you believed that robbing banks wasn't illegal, that wouldn't change anything.

This chain letter is exactly the kind of thing the Postal Service describes on its website. You persist in trying to convince us all that somehow it isn't.

I've asked this question several times already, but you and the others who desperately want to believe in this nonsense never answer. Where are the "chain letter millionaires" we would expect to see on talk shows and in financial magazines? Where are the infomercials selling "The Secret To Making Big Money" instructing people about chain letters? I mean, according to you, they're perfectly legal and work, right?

For that matter, why does anyone bother to have a job, when all you have to do to make more money than 99.9% of the people in this country will ever have is just send out some letters?

Stop ducking these questions and answer, please.
Dixie
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 | 08:26 AM
Cranky....I still believe that success stories are deleted here....Although I also believe that sometimes silence is key...By this I mean, would you be running around telling everyone if you had a few hundred thousand dollars...I mean seriously, If you had found a way to make money that big would you want to share your secret??? I know that I wouldnt...I never said that this was 100% legal...I never said that it worked..Ive never tried it so how would I know?? All I have ever stated was what if and I dont know....Ive never tried to influence anyone to do anything other than to keep an open mind...I have kept an open mind throughout the course and I dont see enough facts to alter my belief that this may be legal and that it may work...As Ive stated before, I am here to see results and not to argue the legality of the issue..I have told you time and time again where I stand yet you listen with closed ears and persist to try to deter myself as well as others..I told you that without facts(concrete facts) I cannot agree with your theories...
greg
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 | 10:50 AM
Boom Chuga Luga Luga
Boom Chuga Luga Luga
Boom Chuga Luga Luga
BOOM

Yur really keepin em goin aint ya Spanky?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 | 02:05 PM
You live in a world of total rationalization, Dixie. No one is "deleting" the alleged tales of success here. Why would someone do that and who would that someone be?

So, in a country of 300 million people, according to you, NO ONE thinks to themselves, "Hey, these chain letter things are a great way to make money. I'll put all the details of how to run one of them in book form and sell that to the public."

NOT ONE PERSON thinks to do that. NOT ONE financial magazine assigns a reporter to talk to the people who have made fortunes via the perfectly legal chain letters and does a story about them. NOT ONE TV news show thinks to do a profile about the people who run those perfectly legal chain letters and how much they've made from them. NOT ONE person thinks to start a company which operates a chain letter for you and takes a percentage of the profit for that service.

Damn, this is a stupid country we live in.
Kurt
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 | 05:49 PM
<However, not before selling her name and the incorrect address as part of a mailing list.>

If companies can sell your information for a buck, <--THAT seems illegal! Why can't an average person start a mailing list?

Listen, if one to two hundred dollars is going to hurt you, then DON'T do it. Heck, I'll spend that on lotto tickets. And the lotto is legal? Wow! Only because big business is involved.

I say everyone that can dream, should respond to this letter to get our country out of debt. Help each other out.

Just think if it worked for everyone who was in a mortgage crisis today. There wouldn't be one! And housing prices would return to normal. And prices would drop. Giving the average American even more cash to spend to pay bills to large companies, and to buy more stuff from large companies. We the people can make changes.

I am not an attorney either, so you as an adult do at your own risk.
Kurt
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 | 06:12 PM
So cranky, you seem like a real "goodie two shoes" kind of a guy. So if the communists invade the USA, and most of your freedoms where lost, your the kind of American who would abide by there every little law. Am I right?
WG
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 | 01:27 AM
My girlfriend received this letter in the mail for the second time this year. I am in possession of both letters because 1) she's busy with school, leaving me to do the research, and 2) I'm not entirely convinced that it'll work or not.

I've spent the last hour and a half painstakingly reading every last post (including the BS ones) on this subject. I've read everything that Cranky Media Guy said (including his half-million links), and paid attention, and I've also read the few LEGITIMATE rebuttals (the "this isn't a chain letter, therefore, it's legal!" crowd), and paid attention to that as well. I've come to no conclusion either way, because although CMG noted the illegality of chain letters via his USPS link, I'm still not entirely convinced that this piece of paper is a chain letter.

See, I could easily do this. My only expense would be envelopes and stamps, as paper and ink are quite free. The only things that have stayed my hand are the "what ifs."

What if CMG is right, and it is a chain letter, hence making it illegal?

What if no one responds?

Also, in regard to this site, there are a couple "whys" that have creeped to the forefront of my mind as well.

Why have there been very few legitimate stories posted here one way or the other regarding failure or (even fewer) success in such a venture?

Why has this been an ongoing issue on this site for nearly three and a half years?

If the illegality of such a venture is absolute (as CMG claims), then why are these letters still widely circulated?

Please understand that I'm not trying to create a negative environment here. I feel as though I'm posing legitimate questions and voicing legitimate concerns.

However, you have to understand that both my girlfriend and I work very hard for what little we have, and she is doubly busy trying to finish school. I'm no idiot; I understand that $800,000 won't just magically appear despite every good intention and positive thought. However, we're just like you all: we work and work, and the bills continue to pile on. We work every day, not knowing how much to budget for gasoline, for example, because of the continually-rising costs of that commodity.

So, you must understand that the attraction of "a few extra bucks" as a result of "people helping people" is really strong.

Thank you, for those of you who have posted genuine insight and advice (from both sides) on this matter. I am going to continue to research it, and I'm going to keep the letter handy until I come to a concrete decision either way.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 | 01:30 AM
Kurt said:

"So if the communists invade the USA, and most of your freedoms where lost, your the kind of American who would abide by there every little law. Am I right?"

Uh, Kurt, please pardon me for asking this but ARE YOU INSANE?

What do Communists have to do with chain letters, which are a scam that has been chronicled in dozens of books, many of which can be found in any decent-sized library? Do you lie awake at night, worrying about Communists and their insidious plot to take away our ability to cheat other out of money?

I'd love to see that bumper sticker on your car: "You'll take away my chain letter when you pry it from my cold dead fingers."

I've explained this before, but I guess I have to do it again. Read this slowly so the information has a chance of sinking in. Lotteries are legal because your chance of winning is not misrepresented. No legally-operated lottery claims that everyone will win money. Chain letters, on the other hand, always make some claim along the lines of "if we don't break the chain, we can all come out ahead."

That is mathematically impossible, as any human of average intelligence can figure out. Of course, I'm probably just a Communist who is trying to destroy America by pointing this out, right?

I'll ask AGAIN. Where are the business magazine profiles of people who have become millionaires via those perfectly legal chain letters you believe exist? Where are the businesses which run chain letters? Where are the infomercials which sell you the "E-Z Chain Letter Way to Big Bucks"? Oh, I forgot, the Communists are suppressing all this info.
Dixie
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 | 03:16 PM
There you go again Cranky...Bieng rude to new-comers..As far as Kurts comment..He was referring to your overall attitude...And is right on if you ask me...Everyone has seen and heard your reasoning and has seen your USPS link...nobody cares what you think...we just want to hear results...And no one wants to sell a secret to a corporation for pennies when they can get dollars on thier own...What you are doing is wrong Cranky..You always say that it is cheating people out of thier money..If they dont want in then they wont send...kinda rhymes...And you live in a world of justification where if your ideas fit the scheme the you do all you can to justify them to others...Its called having a need for acceptance and approval...Thats it Cranky...you are a people pleaser...always looking for support and always using justification in confidence that it may secure your position...Saaaad Very Saaaad...
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 | 05:55 PM
Dixie said:

There you go again Cranky...Bieng rude to new-comers."

Oh, it's my job to be tolerant of people who are making absolutely NO sense at all, just because they're new to the forum? Please explain to me what Communists taking over America have to do with the topic of chain letters.

"Everyone has seen and heard your reasoning and has seen your USPS link...nobody cares what you think."

See, this sums up your bizarre orientation on this subject perfectly. To you, there are no FACTS about chain letters; it's all about what a person BELIEVES. Sorry to break this to you, but this is NOT about what I BELIEVE (or what YOU believe for that matter). It's about the fact that chain letters involving the exchange of money are ILLEGAL and DON'T WORK. My "link to the USPS" is one of those FACTS that you choose to ignore because it would upset your mental applecart. Your belief that chain letters are legal and work is irrelevant and inaccurate.

"we just want to hear results."

Oh, I'm perfectly aware of the fact that you simply DON'T CARE that chain letters are illegal. I've said exactly that previously. No, you DON'T care that they're a scam; you just want to come out ahead, no matter how that's accomplished.

"And no one wants to sell a secret to a corporation for pennies when they can get dollars on thier own."

What are you talking about? WHAT "secret?" Even if you believe that chain letters can cause every participant to come out ahead (a completely irrational belief), there still is no "secret" as to how they allegedly work. Every chain letter I've ever seen explains how it allegedly works right in it. It's bullshit, of course, but there is no "secret" about it.

Besides, who is talking about "selling the secret to a corporation?" I've asked you repeatedly why, if chain letters are perfectly legal and work, we don't see people who have made millions from them in financial magazines and on TV shows. We don't see them because they don't exist. (Or are the same mysterious people who, according to you, censor the success stories from this forum, doing the same thing to all the financial magazines and television programs?)

"You always say that it is cheating people out of thier money..If they dont want in then they wont send."

So, if a person is victimized by a scam, then they're just getting what they deserve? Wow, nice rationalization you have going there. Yup, all those investors in Enron, at one time the seventh-largest corporation in America, who lost all their money, had it coming. After all, they bought the stock, so they have no complaint when it turned out that Enron was a complete scam.

Basically, you agree with the guy in Animal House who says to the fat kid whose brother's car gets destroyed when he says, "You fucked up. You trusted us."

"And you live in a world of justification where if your ideas fit the scheme the you do all you can to justify them to others."

Huh? That makes no sense, either grammatically or logically.

"Its called having a need for acceptance and approval...Thats it Cranky...you are a people pleaser...always looking for support and always using justification in confidence that it may secure your position...Saaaad Very Saaaad..."

Uh, what the hell are you talking about? Again, the only way I can read that is that you believe that a person who tries to warn others about a scam they may otherwise fall for is needy in some way. Wow.

Bottom line: as I've said before, you don't really care who you scam, so long as you personally come out ahead. Please leave my country ASAP.
WG
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 | 11:53 PM
Personally, I think that the point of this topic has gotten way off the mark, thanks to such posters as Dixie, Greg, et al.

The original point/question was related to the legality of an alleged "chain letter." I came here hoping to receive some answers (and be one of the few people to engage in a civil conversation with Cranky Media Guy, despite the fact that we're not exactly on the same page, as far as I can see...I'm not convinced, yet, that this letter I possess is a chain letter), and all I'm seeing is page after page of ad hominem attacks. Lay off.

Can we please get back on topic? I realize that asking a question is akin to holding up a stop sign to a herd of stampeding buffalo, but I am highly curious and legitimately concerned.

The way I see it, I'm in possession of either a phony (and possibly illegal) scam, or a key to making a few extra bucks, which we could definitely use.

As I said in my prior post, I've read CMG's arguments, and the USPS link has provided a very clear view of whether or not a chain letter is legal or not (it's not). However, like I said before, I'm just simply not convinced that this paper is a "chain letter."

I'm just here to engage in civil discussion with any rational-thinking human being so that I might find some answers.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 | 01:23 AM
Well, WG, can you post what your (possibly not a) chain letter says? That would help determine whether or not it truly is one.

I suspect, however, that if there's a question about whether or not it is one, it probably is, but that remains to be determined decisively.
WG
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 | 01:46 AM
Well, here's the thing. It starts out with the "Greetings! I am a retired attorney." line.

But the part that gets me is, I'm not seeing ANYWHERE where there's "guaranteed chance of income." I see hypothetical percentages and figures, but that also has to figure in the fact that a 0% rate of return would, obviously, yield zero dollars.

That's where I have a hard time buying into the fact that this is a "chain letter." I know it sounds silly, but using your "lottery" analogy from earlier, anyone with the capability to reason would have to realize that there DOES exist a chance that you'll get a zero return. Just because they don't tell you that you COULD fail (a basic sales tactic) doesn't mean that you WON'T fail.

It's a gamble, I grant you, but then, so is any actual legitimate business endeavor.

And one thing that the law is NOT clear on is exactly HOW "adding this one little step" (referring to the "Please put me on your mailing list!" line) doesn't necessarily constitute legality.

I mean, if mailing lists are legal, and it's not illegal to send money through the mail, then why is it illegal to send money through the mail to get put on a mailing list? Just a thought.

Keep in mind, though, that I'm not saying, "But THIS chain letter is legal!" What I'm getting at is, I'm not entirely sure this is a chain letter at all; it could very well be a legitimate business opportunity.

This letter is going to end up in one of two places: on the copy machine or in the shredder But I want to have all my facts straight before I make any type of decision.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 | 02:21 AM
You're overthinking this, WG. The basic premise behind a chain letter is that all participants can come out ahead. As I've said repeatedly, that is impossible since the money isn't invested or put into any kind of interest-bearing account.

The reason chain letters are illegal is because their basic premise is impossible. Everyone CANNOT come out ahead; where would the extra money come from?

If the letter you have is implying that everyone who enters will come out ahead, it's illegal because it's based on a lie.

The apologists keep bringing up state-run lotteries. Legal lotteries DO NOT say that everone will win; in fact, they're careful to tell you not to play the lottery as an investment. Every legal lottery I've ever seen will give you a brochure which spells out the odds against winning. Chain letters don't do that for the obvious reason that they're lying to you about how much you can make when in fact they're just going to take your money.

It isn't "gambling" if you CAN'T win. It's a scam.
WG
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 | 02:39 AM
"It isn't "gambling" if you CAN'T win. It's a scam."

Right. On that, I agree with you. And we could argue semantics (for example, "just how little would you have to make to consider it 'not winning?'") forever.

However, I'll reprint the "tips" column. Feel free to dissect at will.

"Here are a few tips I have learned:

1. After you receive your mailing list, mail the letters (an electronic opener is great). File your responses alphabetically every day. If you have a computer, all the better.

2. STAY COOL........Keep your job until you have time to plan your next step.

3. Sow 10% of your new income to charitable contributions (thinking: you reap what you sow); save 20%; set aside 10% for your next mailing project or mailing list; 10% for bills; 30% for taxes; and 20% to play with.

4. Not enough? MAIL, MAIL, MAIL!"

One thing I will say about it is that it seems to be deliberately misleading people into thinking that this $6 "initial investment" is all they'll have to make. Nowhere in this letter did I find anything about buying paper, ink, envelopes, and, biggest expense of all, stamps.

But, that seems to be more of a sales swerve than an oversight. Maybe that's just me.
WG
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 | 02:43 AM
Whoops, I posted that before I got to make the rest of my point. Sorry.

My question is, why would they tell you to "save 30% for taxes" if it's illegal? Wouldn't the implication there be to tell the IRS how you suddenly got $x (on the other hand, I guess that'd be one quick, sure-fire way to find out once and for all whether or not it's legal)?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 | 01:55 PM
"My question is, why would they tell you to "save 30% for taxes" if it's illegal?"

For the same reason that some chain letters quote a section of the postal law to "prove" that they're operating legally (when in fact that exact section of the postal law says chain letters are NOT legal). They put that in to get the precise reaction you're having: "Gee, if they're saying THAT, it must be legit."

The truth is, you're not going to have any profit to declare taxes on. As I keep explaining, it's mathematically impossible for everyone to come out ahead.
WG
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 | 12:58 AM
*shrug*

Well, you can't blame someone for trying, right?

I mean, even YOU have to admit that the whole "make $800,000 in just weeks!" line is somewhat attractive, at first.

But, personally, I'd rather just leave it alone. The risks far outweigh the rewards, and I'd rather not waste money and time sifting through all the gray area of the law. If there's even a CHANCE that it's illegal, I'd rather not bother.

So thanks for all the info.

I have to ask, though, just out of sheer morbid curiosity:

This thread was created in November 2004. That means that it's been going on for nearly three-and-a-half years. In all that time, you've been posting here. "Fighting the good fight," one might say.

Why?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 | 01:21 AM
WG said:

"This thread was created in November 2004. That means that it's been going on for nearly three-and-a-half years. In all that time, you've been posting here. 'Fighting the good fight,' one might say.

"Why?"

Well, why not? If I didn't know what I was saying was right, if I hadn't read books on scams and frauds which explained in detail how chain letters and Ponzi schemes operate and why they cannot work, I wouldn't bother.

There's an old saying, "You can't cheat an honest man" and I'd say there's some truth to that, but at times like these, when the economy is taking a downturn, inevitably there are people desperate enough to get involved in things like this because they really need money. It would be nice if the world worked so that things like chain letter could produce "magic money," but that just isn't so, unfortunately.

I don't believe in Heaven, so I'm not looking for brownie points to get through the Pearly Gates. I just think giving people accurate information about stuff like this is the right thing to do.
Dixie
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 | 08:23 AM
"I don't believe in Heaven, so I'm not looking for brownie points to get through the Pearly Gates. I just think giving people accurate information about stuff like this is the right thing to do."

Cranky needs Jesus.....Let go and see God..
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