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A Postal-Mail Chain Letter?
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Posted By:
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Nov 14, 2004
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I received this chain letter in my mailbox:
Dear Friend,
Greetings: I am a retired attorney. A few years ago a man came to me with a letter. He asked me to verify the fact that this was legal to do. I told him I would review it and get back to him. When I first red the letter my client brought me, I thought it was some "off-the-wall" idea to make money. A week and a half later we met in my office to discuss the issue. I told him the letter he originally brought me was not 100% legal. My client then asked me to later it to make it perfectly legal. I asked him to make one small change in the letter.
***
It goes on for another 2 pages about how if you send $1 to the 6 names on the list & you will make $800,000.00 in just 3 months. You pay for a list of names to send letters to. I KNOW this is a scam. I just can't figure out how I got it. It came to me at my married name (junk-mail tends to come to my maiden name), & it came to my actual house address. (My driver's license lists my PO Box & if you look me up at the DMV, the physical address is actually my prior residence...haven't had time to change it yet.) The phone & electric aren't registered in my name, they're registered to my husband. (There's not a water bill, we have a well.)
What I wanna know is: How did this come to me, with my correct name at my current physical address??? The 'person' who sent the letter is: Mr. Louis Jordan/1234 Shakespeare Avenue/Apt # 2E/Bronx, NY 10452
Also, a co-worker recently had someone slip this same letter under his door at his apartment building...Anyone hear anything about this??
Category: Scams; Replies: 1759 |
Comments
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Page 4 of 30 pages ‹ First < 2 3 4 5 6 > Last › |
Abi
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 | 02:21 AM
:lol: muhahahahahaaha |
Cranky Media Guy
Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 | 06:15 AM
I guess the answer to my question to Abi is NO.
Next contestant! |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 | 09:07 AM
It's staggering how people can be so stupid. They post insane ramblings constantly, all the while bitching that we have nothing better to do than respond to them.
Actually, I think helping warn people away from scammers like these is well worth the effort and frustration. The internet is full of nutcases, so people who are honestly seeking information might very well gravitate to the sole voices of reason and sanity out there. Hopefully we've dissuaded at least one person from giving their money to the hordes trying to defraud them, not just in this thread but from all corners of the internet. That would make it all worthwhile. 😊 |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 | 09:12 AM
And of course when I say 'we' I mainly mean you, Cranky. I don't have quite the patience you have when people start getting freaky on us. I simply start ignoring them. 😉 |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 | 02:51 PM
I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment or something. Yes, the nonsense gets a wee bit old at times.
I guess I always start with the premise that a person is well-intentioned even if completely wrong. In some cases, though, it becomes obvious that a person is just a jerk and isn't really interested in a dialogue about the subject at hand.
Certain people deserve ignoring for sure; I may have to follow your example in that regard. |
Abi
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 | 09:18 PM
(again to cranky) Muhahahahahhahaahahaaa :ahhh: |
Greg
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 | 12:18 AM
I really want to try this letter.
All of you negative people out there are what makes these things not work.
Hey out there......all you negative people. Have any of you really tried it? NO !!!
Let me get this right . They just let hundreds of criminals out of prison because of overcrowding, but they will arrest and prosecute us for sending $1.00 to 6 people.
That type of justice scares the s_ _ t out of me.
I think everyone should stop trying to be so "politically correct". And give it a try.
If the chain isn't broken. It HAS to work.
It Has to work..........HAS TO.
Greg |
Greg
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 | 12:32 AM
One thing that I did read somewhere that there is a possibility that the 6 names on the list are the same person with different addresses. (must be Sybil)
I think this is a lie too. I'm sure some people will try to buck the "chain letter system" by putting there name on a few times, with PO boxes, but even at that, the names still eventually drop off the list.
Let's hear some positive responses...PLEASE.
GREG |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 | 01:58 AM
Greg said:
"I really want to try this letter.
All of you negative people out there are what makes these things not work."
Total nonsense. What makes "these things" not work is MATHEMATICS. They don't work because they CAN'T work.
Greg, I'll ask you the same question I've asked every other person who came onto this thread and defended chain letters: Where does the extra money come from to make every participant end up with more money than they started with?
Please explain that to us all.
"Hey out there......all you negative people. Have any of you really tried it? NO !!!"
I can't speak for all the "negative people" of the world, but I can tell you why *I* don't get involved in a chain letter. It's the same reason I don't go to the top of the nearest tall building and jump off to see if I can fly. I don't do it because I already know the outcome. Get it now?
"Let me get this right . They just let hundreds of criminals out of prison because of overcrowding, but they will arrest and prosecute us for sending $1.00 to 6 people."
No one on this thread has ever said that you WILL get arrested for participating in a chain letter. We've only said that you MIGHT be. The likelihood of you getting into trouble for merely sending some money to a few people in the chain is pretty low. It's the people who START the chain that the authorities are after.
As for your "logic" that since some jails have had to release some inmates, the authorities won't bother with anyone involved in a chain letter, uh, why do they bother to arrest ANYONE for ANY crime? I mean, there's no jail space for them, right? So I guess you can commit any crime you want with no fear of punishment, from shoplifting to murder with no fear of serving jail time.
OK, sarcasm off. What you fail to realize is that the U.S. Postal Service has its own police force which only involves itself with crime that uses the mail service in its commission. They aren't out there pulling over speeders or dealing with hostage situations; they exist solely to investigate and prosecute things like mail fraud and, yes, chain letters. They can't deal with everyone who is committing a crime using the mails, but when they do go after someone, their rate of conviction is VERY high (at least in part because the criminal is supplying the evidence in the form of the mailed items).
"That type of justice scares the s_ _ t out of me.
Well, no matter what frightens you, this "type of justice" exists for good reason. Chain letters are ILLEGAL because they CAN'T and DON'T work.
"I think everyone should stop trying to be so 'politically correct'. And give it a try."
I have no idea what you're talking about here. What does "political correctness" have to do with a scam?
"If the chain isn't broken. It HAS to work.
It Has to work..........HAS TO."
And if you clap really loud, Tinkerbell will live. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 | 02:05 AM
Greg also said:
"One thing that I did read somewhere that there is a possibility that the 6 names on the list are the same person with different addresses. (must be Sybil)
"I think this is a lie too. I'm sure some people will try to buck the "chain letter system" by putting there name on a few times, with PO boxes, but even at that, the names still eventually drop off the list."
Why would a person who is willing to lie to people about how they can make large sums of money via an IMPOSSIBLE chain letter be honest enough to NOT put their name (or aliases or names of friends or relatives) at the top of the list?
Yes, the name(s) at the top of the list will drop off. So what? Under any circumstances, the chain will not continue to infinity, right? If you send out many copies of the letter and find a lot of chumps, then the name(s) at the top will get a lot more money than they put in. No one has ever disputed that fact. The problem is that the people further down DO NOT also get more out of the system than they put into it.
Yes, what you stand to lose is probably not a large sum of money, but you and many other people WILL lose what money they put it to the originator of the chain. That's precisely why people start chain letters!
THEY make money, YOU DON'T. Where do you think the extra money they get comes from? Do I REALLY have to explain that it's from the chumps who send it to them?
If you doubt any of this, I'll ask you again: Where does the extra money come from to make every participant come out ahead? |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 | 09:28 AM
<i>"If the chain isn't broken. It HAS to work.
It Has to work..........HAS TO."</i>
Um, no it doesn't. Eventually you're going to run out of people who haven't participated. That means there won't be any people left to send it to. That means those last few people won't receive any money because there won't be any people to send it to them.
But of course this never happens. Rather somebody early on simply forwards the email without actually sending any money themselves. It's often human nature to cheat, and when you're talking about the theoretical entire human population, you're going to encounter millions of people who cheat.
After all, if altruism was universal we wouldn't be needing these scams in the first place, now would we? |
Greg
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 | 01:50 PM
Hey Cranky...the reason you don't understand what politically correctness has to do with this is because you are part of that politically correct crowd.
It's a group of douchbags called "politically correct killjoys" that associate chainletters with crime, and put a label on the people that try the chain letters, making them out to be "lazy people that want something for nothing".
Use the simple math you learned many years ago and you will see that IF EVERYONE COOPERATES AND DOESN'T BREAK THE CHAIN.........It will work. OK I do agree that if there is a very dishonest originator it will be a loss, but if everyone plays the game honestly, then mathematically it will work.
Use that thing sitting on your shoulders.
It can be called Gambling because there is some sort of chance or risk. Also there will always be the greedy scumbags that try to cheat. This, of course, will screw it up for everyone. (But remember Chance and Risk)
So if it costs about 100.00 to get started and there is a chance to receive 101.00 then you are a winner.
Did you ever bet on a Red Sox game, or buy a few lottery tickets, or even put a few bucks in a slot machine. The only difference is that you don't have to wait 4 or 5 weeks to find out if you lost or won. Typically the outcome of gambling is evident within a short period of time.
One more thing. What kind of a statement is "Chain letters are illegal because they can't and don't work". I've purchased toys for my kids that can't and don't work. Does that make the toys illegal?
Remember that thing sitting on your shoulders....and use it.
Greg |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 | 03:43 PM
Greg said:
"Hey Cranky...the reason you don't understand what politically correctness has to do with this is because you are part of that politically correct crowd."
Huh?
"It's a group of douchbags called "politically correct killjoys" that associate chainletters with crime, and put a label on the people that try the chain letters, making them out to be "lazy people that want something for nothing"."
Greg, if you actually bothered to read any of this thread before you jumped into it head first, you'd have seen where we've quoted the actual part of the U.S. Postal Service's website which STATES THAT CHAIN LETTERS INVOLVING THE EXCHANGE OF MONEY ARE ILLEGAL. Or are you going to turn out to be one of those people who thinks that his OPINION overrides the LAW? We've been down this road before, as you would have seen if you bothered to read what came before you showed up.
"Use the simple math you learned many years ago and you will see that IF EVERYONE COOPERATES AND DOESN'T BREAK THE CHAIN.........It will work."
OK, Greg, let's assume I'm stupid. Why don't you do me the kindness of explaining to dumb ol' me where the extra money comes from to make EVERY participant more than they started with?
Remember that none of the following things is done with the money:
*Used to start a business
*Invested
*Put into an interest-bearing account
*Loaned at interest
"OK I do agree that if there is a very dishonest originator it will be a loss, but if everyone plays the game honestly, then mathematically it will work.
Use that thing sitting on your shoulders."
Don't TELL me, Greg, SHOW me how it can work.
"So if it costs about 100.00 to get started and there is a chance to receive 101.00 then you are a winner."
SHOW me how EVERYONE can come out ahead, please.
"Did you ever bet on a Red Sox game, or buy a few lottery tickets, or even put a few bucks in a slot machine. The only difference is that you don't have to wait 4 or 5 weeks to find out if you lost or won. Typically the outcome of gambling is evident within a short period of time."
I shouldn't have to explain this yet again, but since you didn't bother to read anything, I will, as a favor to you.
Those things are LEGAL (except for betting on baseball, which I think is legal only in Vegas). You DO understand the difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL activities, yes? You folks keep trying to defend chain letters by comparing them to activities which are LEGAL.
"One more thing. What kind of a statement is 'Chain letters are illegal because they can't and don't work."
It's an ACCURATE statement.
"I've purchased toys for my kids that can't and don't work. Does that make the toys illegal?
Remember that thing sitting on your shoulders....and use it."
Greg, your OPINION of what should be legal or illegal is IRRELEVANT. The simple fact is that CHAIN LETTERS ARE ILLEGAL. Your comparison to toys makes no sense.
The fact that, according to you, there are things on the market which SHOULD be illegal has no bearing on the legality of anything else, including chain letters.
You, my friend, are engaging in magical thinking. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 | 03:56 PM
Chary said:
"Eventually you're going to run out of people who haven't participated. That means there won't be any people left to send it to. That means those last few people won't receive any money because there won't be any people to send it to them."
That of course assumes that everyone will participate. That never happens.
Since the number of participants CAN'T possibly be infinite, there is a finite number of dollars in the "pool." Therefore, any money over and above what they put in that any person comes out with HAS to come from someone else's investment. There is no "magic money" that comes from nowhere in life.
Let's say that the chain involves mailing $10. IF the person at the top ends up with $100, that can ONLY mean that 9 other people lost their $10. After all, there is no other source of money involved.
As I've said before, if chain letters worked as advertised, why would anyone need a job? Why wouldn't we all just mail money to each other and live on the magic money we all received?
I'm sincerely fascinated by how chain letter defenders NEVER explain how they work but keep insisting that they DO. Where does the magic money come from? |
Cranky Media Guy
Member
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 | 07:57 PM
OK, I will explain as simply as I can why chain letters CANNOT result in every participant coming out ahead.
I'll use small numbers so that the principle is clear, but this explanation applies to ANY number short of infinity (which, of course, is impossible).
Imagine that three people, A, B and C are sitting around a table. Each of them puts a dollar into a hat on the table. The money is NOT used to start a business, is NOT invested, is NOT put into an interest-bearing account and is NOT loaned at interest. It just sits in the hat. Under those circumstances, there can never be more in the hat than was originally put into it.
A reaches into the hat and removes three dollars. |
sweet jesus
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 | 10:26 PM
Cranky... it's no wonder you're so cranky, you've been at this (posting here) for 2years and nearly 5 months. Your obsession with this subject is more worrisome than the evil threat of illegal chain letters that have plagued the American populous and the postal system since the 1930's!
The fascinating and frankly amazing thing to me is how clearly this thread devides the two kinds of personalities out there... those who hope, beyond all doubt and despair that something great will happen to them one day & they want to help others have that kind of hope... And then there are those who strive tirelessly to convince all the hopeful that nothing good ever happens in this life.
While I'm not a chain letter endorser or participant, but I am a supporter of hope! And thus an enemy of gloom and doubt. Legal or not, that's for the prosecutors and judges to decide... but I for one encourage the hopeful to keep on hoping. This time it might not work out, but if you have hope and it carries you though your live... more power to you! |
Greg
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 | 10:28 PM
I will go along with the assumption that you are stupid. In fact...thats the smartest thing you've said yet!!
I never said everyone comes out ahead.
Let's say 6 people are playing poker. Everyone has a dollar in the pot.
Wow....Straight Flush.
1 winner $5 + his dollar....5 losers.
Lets multiply that by 100...thats 100 poker tables.
WOW 100 winners and 500 losers. Holy Crap....thats Gambling.
Everyone doesn't come out ahead.
This isn't comparing poker with a chain letter..I know thats what your narrow mind is thinking.
This is just trying to explain that gambling is a chance and chain letters are a gamble.
Also I didn't compare chain letters to the lottery. I just am trying to get the point accross that chain letters are a gamble. They will work for some and not for others.
You keep saying that the chain will never go on to infinity (Only Buzz Lightyear goes there and beyond) and I don't know why you keep repeating it. I guess it just takes us back to the assumption that you are stupid.
You said it not me.
Think about it with an open mind. If I send 200 letters out with just your name and my name on them. And those 200 people follow directions exactly as it say in the letter, thats 1 dollar to each of us. You will receive 200 dollars and I will receive 200 dollars. Common sense makes that easy to believe. On the other hand if only 100 people follow through, then you will receive 100 dollars and so will I. Now lets say all 200 do it right. If those 200 people add their name to the list and remove yours and each send out 200 letters, that is 40000 letters with my name on them. Every 200 letters will have a different name on with mine. If each one of those 40,000 people send 1 dollar to me and one dollar to the other name on the letter, I become 40,000 richer. But with only two names I am now out because my name gets dropped. Thats why a letter with six names gives you more of a chance to gain.
The concept is so simple mathematically that I would have to assume that a person that didn't understand is a stupid person.
I haven't tried this thing yet but the more I listen to you the more I believe it will work.
Greg |
Greg
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 | 10:44 PM
I forgot something. You never get the comparisons right. I didn't compare chain letters to toys. I just said that something isn't illegal just because it can't and doesn't work.
You also said that there will always be more losers than winners. Sound like Vegas to me.
I feel like I am arguing the point that
2 + 2 = 4 ..... and you just keep on insisting that adding 2 + 2 is illegal. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 | 01:25 AM
Greg, the fundamental problem here is actually very simple. You and the other chain letter defenders keep talking about what you WISH was. Chary and I are talking about WHAT IS.
You WANT TO BELIEVE that chain letters are legal, despite the fact that you have been shown, using direct quotes from the United States Postal Service website that they are NOT.
You also desperately want to believe (or pretend to believe) that chain letters can benefit a majority of those who participate in them. As I've explained, rather patiently, I think, they CAN benefit the first few people to get in (which always, of course, includes the person who started the chain), but the vast majority of those who follow will lose their money. They HAVE to. Nothing you have said contradicts that.
If you're not too lazy or intellectually incurious, you can go back a few pages and you will find a link to a website which will demonstrate to you why your math simply doesn't work long-term.
"I never said everyone comes out ahead."
But people who operate chain letters DO say that. Please show me ANY chain letter which explains that the vast majority of participants will LOSE their money. Would any rational person get in on this scam if they knew that?
If you KNOW that everyone doesn't come out ahead, then you have answered the question I had in my mind about whether you realized that any potential gain simply came from other people's losses. You are operating on the "greater fool" theory: someone more foolish than you will come along and you will take their money. Thanks for answering that question for me. Now I know who I'm dealing with. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 | 01:40 AM
sweet jesus said:
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Tina
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 | 06:20 AM
Im out of here, this is really getting rediculas with all of the name calling. I got home from work and found 10 e-mails from this site. Its just outragous how closed minded some people are and how vengeful the outhers are here. Good luck to all who are trying this, but I must say once again. It diddnt work for me. It turned out to be a waste of money and time. I tryed it over a year ago, bad mistake. Hope you get better results.
As for Crankey and Chary, I think you just need to let people make mistakes they will make, its part of life. the tow of you must have lots of wrinkles from all the worrying you do that everyone in the world dont agree with you. Do you really think that everyone in the world will change their oppinions because of you? lighten up and live your lives to the fullest. I wont be back so take care everyone and may the force be with you...lol, bye |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 | 09:43 AM
Tina, we're not telling people they can't make their own mistakes. If you want to try it then go right ahead.
What we're doing is providing people with information, and counter those trying to lie to them. Believe it or not there are actually people out there who take a look at the facts and decide "Well, it's an illegal scam. I'll just throw it away." Those people make all of this worthwhile.
And I'm really impressed that we have our first self-admitted scammer. Someone who knows he's breaking the law by defrauding people and just doesn't care. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 | 03:47 PM
Tina said:
"As for Crankey and Chary, I think you just need to let people make mistakes they will make, its part of life. the tow of you must have lots of wrinkles from all the worrying you do that everyone in the world dont agree with you."
I've said this before, but apparently it requires repeating. Neither Chary nor I have the ability to make anyone do anything or to STOP them from doing anything.
All we are doing here is providing ACCURATE information. I honestly cannot understand why that would bother you.
As for name calling, if you look, you'll see that, while I've been called stupid repeatedly in recent days, I haven't responded to that at all, concentrating on staying on topic. |
Greg
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 | 07:24 PM
Cranky,
Nobody directly called you stupid. I was just feeding off of your assumption.
Truthfully I think you are far from stupid. You just have blinders on or tunnel vision or somthing. I may not even try the chain letter. I just want to hear from some people that it actually did work for. Believe me I hate scams and I never get caught up in them. But mathematically this thing CAN work ...for a while. Of course not forever. I understand that completely. But I just want to see a few envelopes with dollars in just to know that it CAN work.
Greg |
Greg
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 | 07:29 PM
Hey...When I say it CAN work, I mean anything is possible !!!! In the early 1900s who would have thought we would do the impossible and land on the moon. Whoa....wasn't that a hoax too.
Greg |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 | 01:52 AM
Greg said:
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Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 | 09:24 AM
Greg, I'm curious. You seem to understand the concept here. You admit that chain letters can work only in the short term.
My issue with this is that for you to make money you have to take it from someone else. Someone who, ultimately, won't be receiving any money for themselves. You make money, they lose money.
How do you justify this? Setting aside the legal aspect, how do you justify taking money from someone gullible enough to participate? Does scamming people not bother you in the slightest? |
Greg
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 | 12:32 PM
No I don't think it is scamming anyone. They are gambling just like me, and trust me, I really don't consider it scamming. It's a dollar for 6 people man....Everyone is getting freaked out about six bucks. A raffle ticket is a buck.
Also I think there is more than one beginning to the chain. What I mean is this is the third time I received it in about 6 or 7 months. So I must be on more than one mailing list. I wish I would have kept the other ones to see if the same names were on them. I think this thing cycles continuously, and if you get it at the right time and send it to the right people, you will get a return. I still haven't pushed myself enough to try it, but I keep thinking about all the money I pissed away in my lifetime. If it costs me 100 in postage and for the mailing list....oh yea and the 6 bucks that someone scammed me for, and I get a return of 107 then I am ahead. If I dont get anything then I just wagered 106 dollars and lost.
Wow.....Now it's curiosity more than anything that is making me want to try it.
Greg |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 | 03:52 PM
Greg said:
"No I don't think it is scamming anyone. They are gambling just like me, and trust me, I really don't consider it scamming. It's a dollar for 6 people man....Everyone is getting freaked out about six bucks. A raffle ticket is a buck."
Greg, it IS scamming people because it's ILLEGAL, something that you can easily determine for yourself; you don't have to take my word for it.
Every chain letter I've ever seen says something to the effect "If the chain isn't broken, we'll make money." It simply is NOT true that all participants can make money in a chain.
I'll say this again: the first few people in the chain CAN make money, but any profit they get comes from OTHER people in the chain who LOSE their money. Period. I've even given you the ratio of winners to losers.
Chain letter defenders always seem to make comparisons to LEGAL gambling. It's not a fair comparison. First off, of course, there's the issue of LEGALITY. Secondly, legal gambling informs you about the odds on winning. Horse racing puts the odds on every horse on a large board in the middle of the track.
If a chain letter is operated on a reasonable principle, why don't the state lotteries operate on the same principle? That way everyone would come out ahead!
People who illegally download music don't think of themselves as breaking the law, but they are. Whether or not YOU consider yourself to be scamming other people, the law says you ARE doing that.
By the way, are you planning on declaring your winnings as income to the IRS, assuming there ARE any winnings? If you don't, you have broken the law again. If you DO, you have admitted to participation in a illegal scam. See how they have you there? |
Greg
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 | 05:04 PM
I have never cheated on my taxes and never will.
If I participate they may have to gather me up and put me in the "chain letter prison".
Maybe I can get Johnnie Cochran to represent me.
Yea and then I can get Povaratti to sing for me. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 | 07:01 PM
OK, I'm confused. Are you saying that if you don't get caught, it's OK?
Or are you saying that IF you come out ahead because of a chain letter (which would ONLY be because you got in early and took money from people who got in after you, people who ALSO hoped to come out ahead), you will report that income on your taxes, which would alert the authorities to the fact that you have income from an illegal source?
As for the thing you and other chain letter defenders keep saying about how you don't BELIEVE that you are breaking the law, let's try something.
Let's say that I went to Wal-Mart the other day, took something off the shelf and walked out the door without paying for it. I don't feel like a shoplifter, though.
Does that make sense to you? Would you NOT tell me that my FEELINGS about the matter were irrelevant, that the LAW says that what I did was shoplifting?
Of course you would. How is what you have said about FEELING that you aren't breaking the law by participating in a chain letter different?
(Remember that you have been SHOWN, on an earlier page of this thread, the exact part of the United States Postal Service ("post office") web site that SAYS that chain letters involving the exchange of homey are ILLEGAL.)
I can understand that you desperately WANT TO BELIEVE that you aren't breaking the law. Unfortunately, your feelings don't determine what is and isn't legal. |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 | 09:21 AM
<i>No I don't think it is scamming anyone. They are gambling just like me, and trust me, I really don't consider it scamming.</i>
So, as Cranky mentioned above, are you providing the participants with a list of odds of winning this lottery, as required of all legal lotteries? If not, and especially if you're using the same wording common to most chain letters, you are deceiving the participants about their odds of making any money. That makes it a scam, even if it weren't otherwise illegal. |
Greg
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 | 10:38 AM
Here's the deal. Many things in life are a gamble. If the people that try it are smart enough to understand that, then they don't have to be given odds.
If they don't know the chances of becoming rich are slim to none, then they are just plain stupid.
Just like the lottery.
If you ever played the lottery then you know how it is to get 3 numbers out of 6 and win $4.50...But there are the people that win the millions. So in the chain letter there are the people that will lose $100 and the people that will gain $100.
You people are just afraid to take any chances in life. This three day debate is starting to make me sick in the stomach. Take some chances guys. Don't die wondering what could have been. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 | 03:07 PM
Greg, this "three day debabe" can and should stop right here.
Chain letters are ILLEGAL.
You are asking people to engage in an illegal activity. You have been given the information about their illegality multiple times now. At this point, you simply can't claim ignorance of the law.
Please stop trying to get people involved in an illegal activity. |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
|
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 | 03:41 PM
So you're intentionally withholding information pertinent to A) the illegality of this process and B) the fact that the vast majority of people participating will lose money.
Sounds like a scam to me, Greg. It's no different from 3-Card Monty or selling someone nonexistant encyclopedias, no matter how many times you want to inaccurately compare it to a lottery.
I'll die a much happier person knowing I haven't defrauded anyone to better myself. |
GREG
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 | 04:41 PM
What's a "debabe" |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 | 02:16 AM
Greg said:
What's a "debabe"
Well, in this case, I'd say it's grasping at straws by citing a simple typo to avoid the obvious flaws in one's previous "arguments." |
Greg
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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 | 12:47 PM
Isn't that what that little guy Tatoo from Fantasy Island would say when he saw a hot chick...."dababe, dababe" |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 | 03:59 PM
I'll just take that as an admission that you're not interested in what's legal or ethical, you just want to make money any way you can. |
Greg
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 | 05:03 PM
Terrible assumption......You don't even know me. |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 | 05:39 PM
You're right, I don't know you. I have only your statements and your avoidance of answering our questions to base my opinion on.
I stand by that opinion until you do something to change it, like explaining how lying to people to get their money is either ethical or legal. |
Cranky Media Guy
Member
|
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 | 02:40 AM
You have to understand, Greg, that while this may be new for you, we have been down this road a few times already.
It's always the same deal: a person comes in and attempts to defend chain letters; we take their arguments apart, ultimately leading to the chain letter defender essentially admitting that they're not trying to benefit their fellow man, but just in it to make a quick buck.
You can't get around the simple math, Dude. Chain letters only make money for the first few people who get in. Everyone else loses, as they HAVE to, given the setup. |
Cranky Media Guy
Member
|
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 | 02:44 AM
After the last exchange, it seems appropriate to post something I was working on a little while ago:
To anyone thinking of defending chain letters on this forum, you should know that we've been down this road several times already. If you insist on doing so anyway, I can predict how the debate will go.
*You will claim that chain letters are legal by quoting a part of the postal code which has nothing to do with chain letters.
*We will respond by quoting the part of the postal code which expressly says that chain letters ARE illegal.
*You will then say that THIS chain letter IS legal because its participants are paying to be added to a mailing list.
*We will respond by quoting the part of the U.S. Postal Service's website which expressly says that that dodge does NOT make a chain letter legal.
*You will then move on from the legal arguments and say that your chain letter is really no different than gambling at a casino or buying a lottery ticket.
*We will respond by pointing out that casinos and lotteries are LEGAL forms of gambling which do NOT purport to make every participant a winner.
*You will claim that your chain letter really can make everyone involved in it a winner if they are just |
zach
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 | 12:31 AM
so, who wants to see that simple, honest math? here it is boys:
assume you have 9 people, names A through I;
assume all the people have $10 to their name;
everyone is "honest" and stays to the end of the chain;
person 'A' sends the letter to B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I and they all send 'A' the $1 requested;
:: 'A' now has $18, BCDEFGHI all have $9 ::
person 'B' sends the letter to C,D,E,F,G,H,I-A and they all send 'B' the $1 requested;
:: 'B' now has $17, CDEFGHI have $8, A has $17 ::
person 'C' sends the letter to D,E,F,G,H,I-A,B and they all send 'C' the $1 requested;
:: 'C' now has $16, DEFGHI have $7, AB have $16 ::
person 'D' sends the letter to E,F,G,H,I-A,B,C and they all send 'D' the $1 requested;
:: 'D' now has $15, EFGHI have $6, ABC have $15 ::
person 'E' sends the letter to F,G,H,I-A,B,C,D and they all send 'E' the $1 requested;
:: 'E' now has $14, FGHI have $5, ABCD have $14 ::
person 'F' sends the letter to G,H,I-A,B,C,D,E and they all send 'F' the $1 requested;
:: 'F' now has $13, GHI have $4, ABCDE have $13 ::
person 'G' sends the letter to H,I-A,B,C,D,E,F and they all send 'G' the $1 requested;
:: 'G' now has $12, HI have $3, ABCDEF have $12 ::
person 'H' sends the letter to I-A,B,C,D,E,F,G and they all send 'H' the $1 requested;
:: 'H' now has $11, I has $2, ABCDEFG have $11 ::
person 'I' sends the letter to A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H and they all send 'I' the $1 requested;
:: 'I' now has $10, now all ABCEFGH have $10 ::
there, there, thats not so hard now is it? illegal or not, i dont care, im a freakin math freak, and can see that it doesnt work. im not going to try it. even if everyone is honest, lol, you would just break even, but then there is the cost of start-up (envelopes, stamps, paper, ink, TIME, etc) so you are really just screwing yourself out of that money. oh, but wait, now you just screwed everyone else out of that money as well, didnt you. jackass.
chains obviously dont work. period. the legality has no bearing, you just shouldnt try it. if you cant see that math, sorry. please dont lecture me on the fact i dont care if its legal or not, i know enough to have read the articles and laws stating its illegality, im not going to attempt it, and im not promoting the further attempts of it. im merely trying to point out the feable-minded mathmatics.
thats all folks. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 | 01:57 AM
There's also the fact that the chain WILL end, Zach, meaning that the last several rounds of people who join in will lose whatever money they put in.
The illegality of the scheme doesn't change the impossibility of how it supposedly works, but I think it IS relevant in that most people who get into a chain letter probably don't realize that it IS illegal and would be wary of participating if they knew the truth.
Thanks for showing on a small scale how chain letters CANNOT make everyone come out a winner. |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 | 09:58 AM
<i>assume you have 9 people, names A through I;
assume all the people have $10 to their name;</i>
<i>:: 'I' now has $10, now all ABCEFGH have $10 ::</i>
Everyone starts out with $10 and everyone ends with $10. What's the point again? Considering the cost of postage for each transaction you'll actually lose money by the end.
<i>:: 'A' now has $18, BCDEFGHI all have $9 ::</i>
Now tell me why 'A' doesn't quit right now? You're asking us to trust a complete stranger when it's in his best interest to stop playing immediately after receiving his funds. We already know he's going to lose money to postage if he continues playing, so why would he continue?
You've demonstrated admirably just why this is a scam. You can't trust the first person since the only way he can make money is to drop out without sending any money himself. |
greg
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 | 12:57 PM
Wow Zach.....you are really confused.
After ABCDEFGH send their one dollar to six people, they just sit and wait. You dont circle around again. You must be a casino man...you have everyone gambling away their winnings.
And Chary......."A" does quit right away...Its a waiting game.
Of course if your name comes up on another mailing list you will receive another letter somewhere down the road. Then if you want to you can go another round.
I have never seen so many people "working" so hard at making something "not work".
Oh yes I have.....the Democrats!!!!!! |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 | 01:57 PM
It takes no effort of ours to make it fail. As has been stated, and ignored, many times before - if it worked why aren't you all rich already? |
CT
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 | 02:29 PM
Hey Cranky Media Guy, It must be nice to have all that time on your hands. Anyways I scanned all the entries from the start to finish. Except for one guy who said he made 400k plus, nobody else has actually made any real money. Sounds like a scam! It's been going to long. I think I will toss the letter out.
Greg, Love your thought on the DEMS
I have never seen so many people "working" so hard at making something "not work".
AKA- War on Terror
If anybody really wants a real opportunity attached to a real product, I have it. With it being totally legal with tons of third party support material, like NBC news casts. I will show all of you how to make huge money if you like? Yes, it envolves working !!
CT
FL |
Greg
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 | 02:47 PM
I heard that if you read every entry in this forum 6 times with one dollar taped to your forehead, then walk around an 18 inch diameter circle made with red chalk for 3 minutes, there will be 2 dollars on you forehead when you wake up the next morning.
If we all do this 800,000 times we can have a big chain letter party. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 | 03:34 PM
Greg said:
"I have never seen so many people 'working' so hard at making something 'not work'."
OK, Greg, why don't you SHOW us how, amazingly, everyone in a chain letter can come out ahead.
Remember, NO outside money comes into the system, so how does EVERYONE magically make money?
Don't TELL us, SHOW us. |
greg
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 | 04:26 PM
What do you mean...no outside money?
If 100 people send me a dollar...that money came from the outside.
Again I go back to the lotto and again you will say "you cant compare the two because the lotto is legal."
But....Do you think that the rollovers are from "OUTSIDE" money? NO WAY...that is the money that the losers put into it. |
greg
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 | 04:32 PM
I know I know...that last entry was very contradictory....It is outside money...Its not outside money.
I don't know what you consider outside....but any source other than my pocket or bank account would be an outside source. |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
|
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 | 06:22 PM
Outside vs Inside
Inside - people who stand to make money
Outside - people who stand to lose money
If there is no outside money then nobody makes anything, all you do is shuffle the same money around.
If there is outside money then whoever is left outside will lose their money to the people inside.
Outside people come inside when they recieve money from other outsiders in excess of their own expenditures, but that money has to come from someone else outside.
There will always have to be somebody outside or the chain falls apart. The chain will fall apart eventually because some of the new outside recruits will refuse to participate and recruit people of their own. Eventually the last outside recruit(s) will fail to recruit anyone new and the chain fails. At that point everyone still outside loses money.
The idea is to not be left outside when the chain fails, but you really have no control over this unless you start the chain. Some might get lucky, but you know that not every one of them can. Since at the start of the chain you know that some, if not most, people will lose money you are scamming them. That's why this is illegal. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 | 05:17 AM
Greg said:
"What do you mean...no outside money?"
Greg, if you'll go back a page or two in this thread, you'll see that I went to some length to explain that the money put into a chain letter is not invested in anything, not put into an interest-bearing account, not used to start a business and not loaned at interest. Any of those activities would generate extra "outside" money.
Since none of them is done, the money in the "system" cannot grow. That is precisely why everyone in a chain letter CANNOT come out ahead.
It's really not a difficult concept. People get confused by the complicated system employed in a chain, however the result is the same: there isn't any more money at the end than there was in the beginning, hence a COMPLETE INABILITY FOR EVERYONE TO COME OUT AHEAD. Period. 2+2 cannot be made to equal 5, no matter how much we'd like it to. |
zach
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 | 09:41 PM
so, i said
"even if everyone is honest, lol, you would just break even, but then there is the cost of start-up (envelopes, stamps, paper, ink, TIME, etc) so you are really just screwing yourself out of that money. oh, but wait, now you just screwed everyone else out of that money as well, didnt you. jackass."
i just wanted to show how the actual Chain part works, its obvious that there is no gain unless you drop out after you make your first bit of money. and i only showed the Complete Round because i keep seeing people say "well if everyone is honest and doesnt drop out". if everyone is in, everyone gets the letter back, and would pay back out.
so, at the end of the Perfect Chain, you break even. however, you spent all the Start-up expense, so you lost; along with everyone else. its quite simple, and quite asinine. oh yeah, (for you chery and cranky) quite Illegal. |
zach
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 | 09:48 PM
to simplify Cranky's expression mathematically:
(assuming perfect chain, no one breaks it)
10 people in a group have 10 dollars each;
100 dollars in chain total;
chain goes round and round and round...
everyone breaks even;
ZERO money gained/lost in chain itself.
everyone loses money to send everyone else a stamped envelope with letter. (approx $115- paper,envelopes,stamps) |
Greg
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 | 10:11 AM
Oh No....you really are losing it Zach.
Next you will be saying that man came from a Monkey......Well in your case, maybe.
And I would be you believe in that big bang thing too. |
greg
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 | 10:12 AM
sorry typo....I would "bet" you believe in that big bang thing. |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
|
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 | 12:46 PM
So you don't believe chain letters are illegal because you're a Fundamentalist Christian? Is that what you're telling us? 😉 |
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Note: This thread is located in the Old Forum of the Museum of Hoaxes.
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