The Museum of Hoaxes
A Postal-Mail Chain Letter?
Posted By:
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Nov 14, 2004
 I received this chain letter in my mailbox:

Dear Friend,
Greetings: I am a retired attorney. A few years ago a man came to me with a letter. He asked me to verify the fact that this was legal to do. I told him I would review it and get back to him. When I first red the letter my client brought me, I thought it was some "off-the-wall" idea to make money. A week and a half later we met in my office to discuss the issue. I told him the letter he originally brought me was not 100% legal. My client then asked me to later it to make it perfectly legal. I asked him to make one small change in the letter.

***
It goes on for another 2 pages about how if you send $1 to the 6 names on the list & you will make $800,000.00 in just 3 months. You pay for a list of names to send letters to. I KNOW this is a scam. I just can't figure out how I got it. It came to me at my married name (junk-mail tends to come to my maiden name), & it came to my actual house address. (My driver's license lists my PO Box & if you look me up at the DMV, the physical address is actually my prior residence...haven't had time to change it yet.) The phone & electric aren't registered in my name, they're registered to my husband. (There's not a water bill, we have a well.)

What I wanna know is: How did this come to me, with my correct name at my current physical address??? The 'person' who sent the letter is: Mr. Louis Jordan/1234 Shakespeare Avenue/Apt # 2E/Bronx, NY 10452

Also, a co-worker recently had someone slip this same letter under his door at his apartment building...Anyone hear anything about this??
Category: Scams; Replies: 1759

Comments
Page 3 of 30 pages  < 1 2 3 4 5 >  Last ›
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 | 02:14 AM
Tami said:

"You are so negative and distrustful."

After all the back and forth we've had, this is really the best you can do by way of a retort? Wow.

I DO have to laugh at you calling ME negative. All I've said is that chain letters are an illegal scam which CANNOT work mathematically (a point you repeatedly refused to address, interestingly enough). All the FACTS are on my side.

YOU, on the other hand, have bitched about big business in general, the pharmaceutical business in particular, lawyers, former husbands...and ME.

Yet, in your fantasy world, *I* am the negative one. You're very amusing, Tami. Delusional, but amusing.

I've learned over the years that when you try to show someone how their favorite delusion is not contiguous with reality, they almost always start accusing you of being "negative." What that REALLY means is, "STOP telling me that the ridiculous thing I desperately want to believe is a fairy tale. La la la la, I can't hear you. I can't hear you!"

No, Tami, don't ask a postmaster if chain letters are illegal. Don't bother to go the library (I hear your home town, Washington, D.C. has a rather comprehensive one up on Capitol Hill) to find a book that will tell you that what I've been saying is true. Don't ask one of the thousands of lawyers in your city about the legality of chain letters.

After all, you're Tami and in Tami's World, whatever you believe is REALITY.

Are you going to get arrested for participating in this stupid chain letter? Almost certainly not; there are bigger fish to fry.

Are you going to make money with it? Nope, for reasons you could easily learn by simply going to the library (in fact, *I* could teach them to you rather easily), but that would harsh your buzz, right?

Off you go. Fantasy Island awaits. De plane, de plane!
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 | 08:52 AM
Face it Cranky, she doesn't want them to be illegal so for her they aren't. At this point nothing you say to her will change that delusion, she will simply disregard you because you're not telling her what she wants to hear.

Anyone can either ask their local Postmaster about chain letters or check out this link.

http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/chainlet.htm

Anyone who continues to argue for their legality is either stupid or a fraudster, there's simply no other excuse for such behaviour.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 | 03:20 PM
"Face it Cranky, she doesn't want them to be illegal so for her they aren't. At this point nothing you say to her will change that delusion, she will simply disregard you because you're not telling her what she wants to hear."

That's my ultimate conclusion, too, Chary. She's a victim of Magical Thinking.

Since she's SUCH a True Believer, I'm sure it's just a matter of time before the mathematics which argue against chain letters step out of the way and that money just comes rolling in. (/sarcasm)

Then she will develop an interest in porcine aviation, at which point, pigs will gain the ability to soar like eagles.

Actually, I expect that we'll hear from her again, when she starts claiming that she DID make a load of money from this stupid chain, offering, of course, NO evidence of this claim whatsoever. I think she will feel the need to "prove" that her trust in this nonsense was NOT misplaced.
Tami:Dream Catcher
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 | 08:10 PM
Ah...there you go. I was wondering when that 'hell' guy was going to post. You guys are birds of a feather. My assumption being there are two of you and not one guy and an imaginary friend who agrees with the other. I'm not interested enough to find out. OR, I know! You two are the 'haoxes' guys that started this site? And there has to be haoxes or scams. That's your thing! You don't have to prove anything. Just say it's a scam and we should all believe you.

You assert that it's illegal at least 50 times. You have shown no data to support your position i.e., court cases or other documents. I presumed you did your research and would share that with us to support your position. It's incumbent on you, since you are stating it's illegality, to prove your position, especially since you care so much about people getting ripped off,right? Go to the library, you say? I would think you did that before you made this egregious claim. How did you get your information...from one source, that Post Office Site? Well you weren't responsible enough to prove your point and I'm getting bored now. I thought I'd get some intelligent debate going, not ranting the same stuff over and over.

You clearly don't know how to debate. Maybe you'll go to college one day and get on a debate team. You'll learn screaming and yelling doesn't count. You'll actually have to cite documents, etc., to support you position. BTW, if your position is weak, or you are losing, you can't get all mad, pouty and start name calling, swearing, etc.. That probably would not be allowed either. You see, in college one generally learns grown up stuff, assuming one is a late bloomer and hasn't learned that stuff already.

Cranky, my assumption is that you and 'hell' guy, hopefull he's real, are a couple of young, perhaps intelligent, guys fooling around on this site for fun. Good for you. However, if I am wrong and you guys have finished your educated and are over umm, 26 years old...well...geez...??

Tami
jill
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 | 09:26 PM
Ok enough already! I thought I found a site where people who actually tried this were comparing their experiences. Can someone let me know if they mailed letters and received responses. Please don't lie. Cranky please don't tell me again that it is illegal. I got your point and understand it. I just don't understand why you are trying so hard to say the same thing over and over.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 | 02:11 AM
Tami said:


"You clearly don't know how to debate. Maybe you'll go to college one day and get on a debate team. You'll learn screaming and yelling doesn't count. You'll actually have to cite documents, etc., to support you position."

Yup, *I'm* the one here who hasn't supported his position. You ARE making me laugh, Tami. I guess the Postmaster General doesn't know the law concerning chain letters and all the books in the library about scams don't know what THEY'RE talking about either. Oh, I forgot, you BELIEVE that chain letters are legal so none of that definitive information constitutes PROOF to you.

Hey, Tami, how about if I drive from here on the Oregon coast to D.C., pick you up and physically TAKE you to the Library of Congress? Would THAT be convenient for you? I know how crowded the D.C. Metro can be. On the way, we could stop by the General Post Office on Pennsylvania Ave. and ask the Postmaster General what HE thinks. Oh, damn, I forgot, he doesn't know what he's talking about either.

For the fourth time now, by the way, you have--deliberately, I assume--conspicuously avoided the teensy problem of the impossible math which would be required to make chain letters profitable for more than the first few people who are in on them, which means those who START them. They make their money off the suckers who jump in, thinking they're going to score big.

You can call me all the names you want, compare me to all your ex-husbands for all I care. If that's supposed to upset me, it isn't working, not even a little bit. Your ad hominem attacks can't change the FACTS that the LAW says that chain letters are illegal and simple arithmetic says they don't and can't work.

Unless, of course, we're on Tami World where FAITH makes the impossible not only possible, but GUARANTEED and makes the illegal LEGAL.

"You see, in college one generally learns grown up stuff, assuming one is a late bloomer and hasn't learned that stuff already."

Another thing that people usually learn by college age is that money doesn't magically multiply, which would be required to make a chain letter work. That's the kind of thinking that isn't normal for anyone over the age of 10 or so.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 | 02:18 AM
Jill said:

"Cranky please don't tell me again that it is illegal. I got your point and understand it."

It just isn't what you want to hear. In other words, you know damn well that chain letters are illegal, you just don't care. Fascinating.

"I just don't understand why you are trying so hard to say the same thing over and over."

And I am baffled as to why you thought you would be able to exchange information about engaging in an illegal activity in a public forum and NOT have someone point out that what you want to do is illegal.

Why don't you go check and see if HowDoIRobABank.com is up and running?

By the way, has it ever occurred to you that a law enforcement official *might* be reading this thread (or that *I* could be a law enforcement official)? Are you also under the mistaken belief that your identity can't be determined?

Oh, that's right, chain letters are perfectly legal, which makes me wonder why you two think anyone bothers to have a job. Why don't we all just send letters to each other and live on the Magic Money which would show up in our mailboxes?
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 | 02:21 AM
Oh, hey, Tami, I forgot...what happened to that thing about ME wanting to get the last word? Didn't you say you were leaving?

And you wonder why I'm laughing at you!
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 | 09:22 AM
Tami, if you feel we're not presenting a valid argument then why are you even still here? Obviously you enjoy the arguing or you would have left, just like you keep saying you are going to do. Say one thing but do another... and you accuse of us just goofing off.

I can tell you why I'm here - To remind people of the law and encourage them to <b>consult their local postmaster if they're confused or uncertain</b>. I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for you to grasp. I would think most intelligent people could understand that Mail Fraud would fall under the dominion of the US Postal Service. Is there some reason you're incapable of making this elementary connection?

Your refusal to acknowledge this argues one of three things. 1) You're stupid. I'm not yet sure this is the case, but you're doind a marvelous job of convincing me. 2) You're a flamer. Possible, but unlikely as you haven't been truly offensive yet. 3) You're a fraudster. I'm still undecided on this.

I'm sure I'll eventually work it out, you don't seem inclined to leave any time soon.

And again, if you have a question about mail fraud wouldn't it make just the tiniest bit of sense to ask the Postal Service?

I'll also point out that simply providing you information regarding the law is enough proof. I don't have to provide you with court cases documenting that law to support my case, the existence of the law itself is more than enough. Any child would understand that something is illegal if a law exists stating that it is, unless that law is successfully challenged in court. To date no court case challenging the legality of chain letters has won, though other aspects of the law have been successfully challenged (advertising of legal casinos).

The Law: <b>Title 18 Section 1302</b>

http://www.usps.com/websites/depart/inspect/usc18/lottery.htm

<i>Whoever knowingly deposits in the mail, or sends or delivers by mail:

Any letter, package, postal card, or circular concerning any lottery, gift enterprise, or similar scheme offering prizes dependent in whole or in part upon lot or chance;

Any lottery ticket or part thereof, or paper, certificate, or instrument purporting to be or to represent a ticket, chance, share, or interest in or dependent upon the event of a lottery, gift enterprise, or similar scheme offering prizes dependent in whole or in part upon lot or chance;...
</i>

I fully expect you to claim this doesn't prove anything.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 | 03:22 PM
Nicely done, Chary.

Yes, I too expect Tami to come back and say that that law doesn't apply to THIS chain letter for some unspecificed reason (except that she BELIEVES it doesn't).

Eh, as they say, all you can do is all you can do.
Ice
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 | 04:23 PM
Not that I am a proponent of chain letter schemes, but the excerpt copied from the post offices' site appears to prove that the particular 'chain letter' in question is okay since it is presented as a business venture. Otherwise, any such mailer asking for a fee to be placed on a list to get auction, foreclosure or any other information might be illegal. It's just asking someone to do something for money ... it's not saying just send money to everyone on the list & every new person added to the 'pyramid' will send you money. It says start a list brokering business & help others down the line do the same. You can then use the list as you accumulate names to make other offers or sell the list to others for them to make offers ... it's an 'opt-in' list of potential clients & it's up to the list owner to determine how they will utilize the list.

I mean, you may or may not get anything when you send money through the mail. It's a chance you take, but this is not a lottery, gambling, prize offer, etc. Everyone gets lottery & prize offers all the time through the mail, but if it's done right, then it is legal. Whenever you advertise for any service whether tangible or not, there is a chance that you won't have a buyer or participant or anyone that is willing to pay the fee.

I didn't invest any time in going to the link since I would assume you thought the words copied & pasted proved your point. Since 'chain letter's' have been around for so long, I would think that those words would be mentioned specifically, but they weren't or anything resembling the like.

Your interpretation seems to be driven by the desire to be stubbornly against anyone possibly making money by starting a list brokering business in this manner.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 | 08:21 PM
Ice said:

"Not that I am a proponent of chain letter schemes, but the excerpt copied from the post offices' site appears to prove that the particular 'chain letter' in question is okay since it is presented as a business venture."

Chain letters are almost always represented that way so that people will come to the same conclusion as you did. Who would participate if the letter said, "This is illegal, but you should do it anyway"?

It is a false argument. Chain letters are illegal because their "modus operandi" CANNOT work. Any intelligent, rational person who spends a minute thinking about it will realize why. The money involved in a chain letter is not put into an interest-bearing account, invested in anything or used to start a business. Given that, how would it be possible for everyone to come out ahead?

The simple answer is, they can't. If anyone made, say, ten times their initial investment, that HAS to mean that nine other people LOST their money.

The people who start chain letters insure that their names are on the top at the beginning, meaning that if ANYONE makes money before the chain collapses (which is inevitable), it will be THEM. Why do you think they start them in the first place? To assist mankind? Duh.

As I've said before, if chain letters worked as advertised, no one would need to work for a living. We'd all just send letters to each other and live off the money that rolled in.

I'm amazed over and over at how the people who so desperately want to believe in the legality of chain letters and their magical ability to pull money out of thin air refuse to simply ask their postmaster or an attorney about them or go to the local library and read one of the many books on scams available there.

The effort required to ascertain the facts is so small, I can only conclude that at least part of your brain knows full well what you'd find out if you did that and you just DON'T WANT to have that information.

To repeat: chain letters DON'T work, they CAN'T work and they are ILLEGAL.
jiji
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 | 04:35 PM
ok Cranky, as we can see this is your website to control. Let people alone and let them learn from their experiences and tell other people what they have learned, good and bad. Your interest in this mail businees is extrodinaire, you really know everything there is about illegal chain letters, ok, now it is very clear where you stand on the issue, now get out, obsess about another matter and let people that have tried it and failed let other people know and maybe warn them. You are pushing the matter to where people don't want to believe you because you are so obsessed with the issue. You obviously have no life except to tell somebody else what they are doing wrong, you probably get off on turning people in to the authorities too. If you have tried it let people know that it failed and go on about your business.
tb
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 | 06:03 PM
Ok, so I got this same letter this week and am doing research, which is how I found this forum. I also looked up the people on my list and all appear to be real people, unlike the last one I received where all the people were faked. After reading this thread, I have a couple of questions, after reading the link to the USPS about Chain letters, etc.

1) If these are illegal and NEVER work, why do people keep sending them out if no one ever makes any money at them? Someone started this letter way back when (it's a lot longer ago than 2003, btw). Someone, somewhere is likely making some money on this, though maybe a lot less than the "come on" in the letter, so to say they "never" work seems a little weak, in terms of facts.

2) For those who really want to try this, are you willing to do some work? Rather than drilling home ad nauseum that "this letter is illegal because....", why not come up with a way to make it truly legal? In other words, turn it into a legitimate mail order solicitation. If I'm understanding correctly, it's the lack of a real product or service AND the promise of LOTS of money that make this illegal. Fix those two issues and haven't you fixed the legality problem? Then it's just a case of promoting a product someone will actually buy.

Yes? No? Am I correct in my interpretation?
Tami:Dream Catcher
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 | 08:24 PM
JiJi said:

"Let people alone and let them learn from their experiences and tell other people what they have learned, good and bad."

That's what I'm doing. I plan to get back with my experiences....good or bad.


tb said:

"2) For those who really want to try this, are you willing to do some work?"

I'm doing 200 or so just as I had received them which is 5 copies in each letter.

tb said:

"If I'm understanding correctly, it's the lack of a real product or service AND the promise of LOTS of money that make this illegal."

Part of it is you send money and ask to be put on a mailing list. That would be a service in my estimation. I don't think promising a lot of money is what would make it illegal. When I buy a lottery ticket, I do so with the hopes of winning a lot of money...mega millions, maybe. For some people it's a habit. But sometimes they win. Same with the stock market. I've heard of people losing their shirt playing the stock market, which is a more sophisticated way of gambling.

If I have a bad list I could lose, but I'm using a list from somewhere else, that I'm sure is a good list and a list from a company that sells lists.

Hey, I don't smoke, drink much, but I do gamble a little once in a while. This is better for me than taking $200.00 to the race tracks or OTB or that on line gambling. I think a friend of mine is addicted to that. He's CPA and always online gambling or playing the horses. He loses more than he wins. Is he a sucker? Maybe, but he enjoys the races. He spends too much on that, I think. Not my place to tell him how to spend his money.

What money I put into this is my money. It will cost me more in stamps for mailing than what I'd be sending these people to get on their list. The good thing is I can do it at my leisure.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 | 02:06 AM
jiji said:

"ok Cranky, as we can see this is your website to control. Let people alone and let them learn from their experiences and tell other people what they have learned, good and bad."

Let's see if I understand your position. You think that people should feel free to break the law and other people should NOT point out that the activity they're advocating is illegal. Fascinating.

By the way, I do not "control" this website in any way. I've never even met Alex, the guy who DOES own and control the site. If I DID control the site, don't you think I would delete postings claiming that chain letters are legal?

"it is very clear where you stand on the issue, now get out, obsess about another matter and let people that have tried it and failed let other people know and maybe warn them."

Again, you seem to feel that a person having actual INFORMATION about the illegality and impossibility of chain letters shouldn't inform others. Again, fascinating.

"You are pushing the matter to where people don't want to believe you because you are so obsessed with the issue. You obviously have no life except to tell somebody else what they are doing wrong, you probably get off on turning people in to the authorities too."

Why don't you Google for "ad hominem attack?"

"If you have tried it let people know that it failed and go on about your business."

Just as Tami wants to avoid discussing the impossible math that would be required to make chain letters work, YOU want to avoid discussing their illegality.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 | 02:26 AM
tb said:

"1) If these are illegal and NEVER work, why do people keep sending them out if no one ever makes any money at them?"

The short, sarcastic (although accurate) answer is that a LOT of people are marks. People have been going to palm readers for centuries. People still fall for the Nigerian scam where you get a letter from a guy who tells you that he is trying to "liberate" a family fortune and he needs your help (tranlation: your money) to get it, which he will, of course, share with you even though that has received MUCH press attention.

I guess those and many other scams are legitimate because they've been around for some time, right?

"Someone started this letter way back when (it's a lot longer ago than 2003, btw)."

How do you know that? You believe that just because the letters says so? Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't.

"Someone, somewhere is likely making some money on this, though maybe a lot less than the "come on" in the letter, so to say they "never" work seems a little weak, in terms of facts."

The organizers of a chain letter have a chance of making money because they are the ones that the suckers who join early on send their money to. People who get in later CANNOT make money from a chain letter.

I would be fascinated to see your explanation of how everyone in a chain can make more money than they put in. Where does the magic extra money come from?

"If I'm understanding correctly, it's the lack of a real product or service AND the promise of LOTS of money that make this illegal."

There's more to it than that. As I asked before, how can everyone in the chain make more money than they put in? How does that magic work? Here's a clue: IT CAN'T. That's why chain letters are illegal.

"Fix those two issues and haven't you fixed the legality problem? Then it's just a case of promoting a product someone will actually buy."

There's a version of essentially the same scam as a chain letter which DOES involve a product. It's called a "pyramid scheme." They are also illegal, for the same reason: THEY CAN'T WORK EITHER.

In the case of a pyramid scheme, the product or products are essentially a fake-out to divert you from figuring out that they are really just like a chain letter, just not involving the mail.

Why do you people keep avoiding the issue of the impossible math in a chain letter? Are you perfectly cognizant of it and are just counting on being in on the chain before it collapses, leaving people who get in after you holding the bag?
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 | 02:42 AM
Tami bloviated:

"Part of it is you send money and ask to be put on a mailing list. That would be a service in my estimation. I don't think promising a lot of money is what would make it illegal. When I buy a lottery ticket, I do so with the hopes of winning a lot of money...mega millions, maybe. For some people it's a habit. But sometimes they win. Same with the stock market. I've heard of people losing their shirt playing the stock market, which is a more sophisticated way of gambling."


Utter nonsense. Sorry, Tami, but "your estimation" in this matter is worthless. So, what's your excuse for not doing any of the simple things I suggested (like asking one of the thousands of lawyers in your home town of Washington, D.C. or visiting the Library of Congress to read any of the dozens of books there about scams) to find out if chain letters are legal)? Oh, right, who needs FACTS when they have their "estimation?"

Lotteries are LEGAL (at least those run by the state). The stock market is LEGAL. Neither of those use impossible math to promise riches to participants. State-run lotteries actually tell you what the odds are. Chain letters, which are ILLEGAL, on the other hand, promise riches based on impossible math. Get the distinction yet?

"If I have a bad list I could lose, but I'm using a list from somewhere else, that I'm sure is a good list and a list from a company that sells lists."

Oh, really? What is the "company" which supplied you the list? Since it's perfectly legal, according to you, you should have NO problem letting us know what legitimate, reliable company it is. By the way, how could anyone put together a list of people who would participate in a chain letter? How would you know that about them to be able to compile such a list?

There are legitimate companies which sell mailing lists for legal uses. None of them would have a problem with you disclosing their name. So, please let us know which one you are dealing with.

Assuming you actually obtained some kind of list from some company, has it ever occurred to you that there *could* be one or more postal service agents on it for the express purpose of catching people operating a chain letter? I have NO knowledge of such a thing, but it seems like an obvious and easy way to catch people breaking postal law.
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 | 09:01 AM
<i>2) For those who really want to try this, are you willing to do some work? Rather than drilling home ad nauseum that "this letter is illegal because....", why not come up with a way to make it truly legal? In other words, turn it into a legitimate mail order solicitation. If I'm understanding correctly, it's the lack of a real product or service AND the promise of LOTS of money that make this illegal. Fix those two issues and haven't you fixed the legality problem? Then it's just a case of promoting a product someone will actually buy.</i>

Selling a real product or service through the mail is perfectly legal, assuming the product/service itself is legal and you meet all legal certifications and such. The thing is, that's exactly what Sear & Roebuck did for over a century - mail order catalogs. It's not a new idea. But just like any business venture, there is no guarantee that you'll make a profit. Good luck to you if you try it.

But this is a completely different concept from chain letters. In a chain letter you send money to someone else with the hopes that people you send the letter to will send you money. Or gifts, it's the same thing.

The problem is, as one commentor noted above, why not keep your money and simply send the list out anyway with your name on it? Then any money that people send you, over the cost of your mailings, is pure profit because you don't have to pay out yourself. And that's the main failing here. It depends on people being honest for anyone to see a return, but your odds of profit increase if you yourself are dishonest. Everyone else can come to this same conclusion, so at best you might get a couple of truly honest people to send you something but the rest will play it dishonestly.

And even if everyone <i>was</i> honest about it, there's still a limit to the number of people who can make money off of it. Even if you eventually reached every single person on the planet, those last few people will have nobody to forward the letters to. They can't forward them to people who have already participated because then those people would simply be paying out the money they received, resulting in a balance of zero for those people. All you would be doing is moving stacks of money from one person to another with no way to keep it if you stay in the chain.

So the chain <i>has</i> to end for anyone to actually profit, but again those last people will have paid out and seen no return themselves. Everyone else will have profited off of their loss. That's why it's a scam, <i>everyone</i> can't profit, there's nowhere else for the money to come from.
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 | 09:08 AM
As for the idea of people selling lists...

As Cranky said, where do they get these lists? They can't know who will and who won't participate, so they're probably just creating them randomly. You could do the same just by looking up addresses in the phone book. In fact, the idea of needing to buy addresses from someone is ludicrous - a decent sized city phonebook will provide enough addresses to last for years of mailings.

This fact alone should make someone very distrustful of such address services. In fact, if chain letters are such a good way to make money why aren't they using the addresses themselves? The answer is because they know that chain letters are illegal. Selling addresses isn't. They're taking advantage of people who are gullible enough to purchase a useless list from them.
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 | 09:15 AM
<i>What money I put into this is my money. It will cost me more in stamps for mailing than what I'd be sending these people to get on their list. The good thing is I can do it at my leisure.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.</i> - Tami

You have been shown documentation that chain letters for profit are illegal. You have been shown again and again how to verify this for yourself.

You continue to deny the illegality of chain letters.

You insist that your are continuing to participate in this illegal activity.

You persist in posting here after saying several times that it was useless and that you were leaving.

These activities lead me to conclude that you are a scammer. There is no other logical conclusion.
Tina
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 | 02:36 PM
Cranky and Chary,
do you guys do anything besides sit here and reply to this web site? I think that your initled to your oppiinion but I dont think your intiltled to telling everyone else what they should think. you have said what you need to say countless times, Im sure we all know how to read.
Its kind of how communication works, you say what you need to say, people read it, then they form their OWN oppinion on the subject. some will agree with you and some wont. Some people are risk takers and some play it safe. Its how people are and your not going to change that. The reason I posted this is because I went away for 3 days. when I came back there were 10 new postings here and over half of them were you two. Good luck and I really hope you find better hobbies than dictatorship.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 | 03:30 PM
Tina said:

"I think that your initled to your oppiinion but I dont think your intiltled to telling everyone else what they should think."

Please explain how we are "telling everyone what they should think."

"you have said what you need to say countless times, Im sure we all know how to read."

Apparently not, since none of you seem to be able to figure out how to go to a library and read a book on scams, which would tell you clearly that chain letters for profit are ILLEGAL. Nor, apparently, can any of you comprehend the simple writing on the postal service's website which explains the same thing.

"Some people are risk takers and some play it safe."

And some think that they can advocate participation in an illegal activity on a forum and NOT be criticized for that or have anyone else point out the illegality and impossibility of the activity. How strange.

"Good luck and I really hope you find better hobbies than dictatorship."

Please give some examples of the "dictatorship" you think you see. Neither Chary nor I own or operate this website.

If we were in a position of "dictatorship," wouldn't you expect to see us deleting your postings? Oddly, for a dictatorship, no one has had anything deleted at all.

What you REALLY mean is that we keep bringing up FACTS about chain letters you find inconvenient. This is demonstrated by the say you folks keep AVOIDING them. When I ask over and over for any of you chain letter advocates to explain where the extra money comes from to cause the participants to profit, the response is silence.

Like Chary, I am forced to come to the conclusion that you folks are scammers. If you were merely "true believers," you'd have some answer, albeit illogical, to that simple question.

You know full well that chain letters are a scam and you're here in the hope that you can sucker other people into participating in one (or more) that you've started.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 | 02:49 AM
And as quickly as they arrived, all the chain letter proponents have disappeared.

Why, it's almost as if it was organized.
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 | 08:56 AM
They're probably just frustrated with us close-minded negative-nancys. They'll seek out some other site that actually condones illegal activity.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 | 03:04 PM
To quote Jerry Seinfeld, "Good luck with all that."
jiji
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 | 10:53 PM
Please start a legal advocate site cranky. You are so needed to do this, you might even get paid for your advice, legality terms, your crankiness, your repiticious answers, your life long commitment to this matter, your whole life is at stake for this matter, we can tell. If people don't want to take your advice then please don't lose sleep, get a job, get a date, get married, get laid, please I am so afraid you are going to set a bomb off or something, you might get so frustrated you might go on a shooting spree, please, I know some good therapists. They are there to help you. Take a vacation, get drunk, scream, cry, get it all out. Remember people will learn from their mistakes, you don't have to be there to catch them, warn them, scold them, belittle them, live baby and let live.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 | 02:21 AM
Jiji, your personal attacks are irrelevant to the issue here. Insulting me does not in any way disprove the simple facts I've presented: Chain letters involving money are ILLEGAL and DON'T WORK.

You've have many chances to disprove what I've said (which is, of course, FACTUAL) but you have not. If you could, you would, but you can't so you engage in personal insults.

One simple question for you: where does the extra money come from to make everyone involved in a chain letter profit? How does that work? Since you're arguing with me about this, you must believe that they work somehow, so why not educate the rest of us who don't believe in magic?

If you think you're hurting my feelings, you're not. Actually, you're making me laugh because I know that you're only acting like this because I'm right and you can't disprove what I've said.

Go elsewhere and try to convince people that chain letters are legal. It ain't working here.
hellaillegal
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 | 02:45 AM
Hey Cranky, are chain letters illegal?
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 | 02:50 AM
Yup, although that doesn't stop the assholes who keep trying to convince people they're NOT because they want to sucker them out of their money.
Tami:Dream Catcher
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 | 09:33 AM
Cranky said:

"Jiji, your personal attacks are irrelevant to the issue here. Insulting me does not in any way disprove the simple facts I've presented: Chain letters involving money are ILLEGAL and DON'T WORK."

What facts has he presented? That site to the USPS link is re gambling, etc. The question is; What exactly is a chain letter? I'm not asking Cranky. He's apparently gone as far as he can go intellectually, which is why he says the same things over and over. Now he's resorting to name calling for those of us who don't think as he does...thank God.... or don't agree with him. ( Oh, yeah, except for that 'hell' guy)

This particular letter is not what the USPS site is referring to as being illegal. I'm not, nor ever have been, a criminal or a scammer, in spite of these guys' opinions. The math of it is not an issue for me, either. BTW, I believe people can disagree, state their opinions and as Jiji said, learn from their mistakes. All mistakes aren't illegal, either.

I sure hope Cranky is not rearing children. He'd teach them to follow the biggest mouth and to be bullies. I wanted to get good intellectual opinions from this site. Instead I got a ranting 'two year old' and his alter ego.

I'm very happy with my decision to participate in these mailings. You two have helped me make that decision. Thank you for that.

I'm sorry, Cranky and hell guy, if I'm not hanging at this site anticipating your juvenile responses. I have a life. Take Jiji's advice get laid, get therapy. Do something other than abuse people because they don't agree with you.

Cranky, try Prozac. Get an education, then you'll be able to offer some real dialog other simply cyber yelling, "IT'S ILLEGAL", ad nauseum. I think we got your opinion, several times. Hell guy, find a priest.

Tami
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 | 03:26 PM
Tami said:

"What facts has he presented? That site to the USPS link is re gambling, etc. The question is; What exactly is a chain letter? I'm not asking Cranky. He's apparently gone as far as he can go intellectually, which is why he says the same things over and over."

Tami, there are these things called "libraries." They are located in most municipal areas. In them are thousands of books which a person can read and even take home temporarily. Some of those books are on the subject of scams. Those books will give you all the FACTS (yes, I know, you don't LIKE facts) about chain letters.

In other words, you don't have to take my word for the illegality of chain letters involving the transfer of money. It's much more fun to ignore the available information and make lame attempts to insult me, though, isn't it?

"This particular letter is not what the USPS site is referring to as being illegal."

Oh? Please explain why that would be.

"I'm not, nor ever have been, a criminal or a scammer, in spite of these guys' opinions."

If you engage in this chain letter despite all the available information about its illegality, sorry, Tami, but you ARE a criminal. Oh, wait, this is one of those "I believe it so it just IS" things, isn't it?

"The math of it is not an issue for me, either."

OK, there are only two possibilities for making that statement. The first is that you are MUCH dumber than you appear to be. The second is that you are a scam artist who wants to get other people involved in this stupid, ILLEGAL chain letter.

I'll ask you one more time: where does the magic money come from which would be required to cause everyone involved in the chain to profit?

I really have to laugh at you accusing ME of not being factual when you make statements like that. A child could reason out why a chain letter CANNOT work as they are alleged to. Why can't you?

"BTW, I believe people can disagree, state their opinions and as Jiji said, learn from their mistakes. All mistakes aren't illegal, either."

Yes, people can disagree about things. There ARE facts in this world, however. If you say that the Earth is flat and I say it's round, you are simply WRONG. The fact that it is your sincere opinion does not change that.

No, all mistakes are not illegal. We aren't talking about ALL "mistakes," though. We are talking about engaging in an activity which has been illegal for decades.

By the way, did you ever call one of the thousands of lawyers in your home town of Washington, D.C. to ask about their legality as I suggested? Or would that involve those FACTS that you seem to be allergic to?

"I sure hope Cranky is not rearing children. He'd teach them to follow the biggest mouth and to be bullies."

Actually, I did help raise two kids. I taught them to inform themselves about things and that FACTS were important. Your insults are just silly.

"I'm very happy with my decision to participate in these mailings. You two have helped me make that decision. Thank you for that."

Since you're so absolutely certain that this chain letter you are participating in is legal, why don't you give us your real name? I'll be happy to hand it over to the postal authorities. Since you claim it's perfectly legal, this can cause you no problems at all, right? Plus, it would win the argument for you AND educate others about the legality of chain letters. So, what's your real name, "Tami?"

"I'm sorry, Cranky and hell guy, if I'm not hanging at this site anticipating your juvenile responses. I have a life. Take Jiji's advice get laid, get therapy. Do something other than abuse people because they don't agree with you. [and so on]"

More irrelevant personal insults.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 | 08:19 PM
Since Tami and her fellow travelers can't figure out how a library or a Google search works, I'll do it for them.

From http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/chainlet.htm



"A chain letter is a "get rich quick" scheme that promises that your mail box will soon be stuffed full of cash if you decide to participate. You're told you can make thousands of dollars every month if you follow the detailed instructions in the letter.

"A typical chain letter includes names and addresses of several individuals whom you may or may not know. You are instructed to send a certain amount of money--usually $5--to the person at the top of the list, and then eliminate that name and add yours to the bottom. You are then instructed to mail copies of the letter to a few more individuals who will hopefully repeat the entire process. The letter promises that if they follow the same procedure, your name will gradually move to the top of the list and you'll receive money -- lots of it.

"There's at least one problem with chain letters. They're illegal if they request money or other items of value and promise a substantial return to the participants. Chain letters are a form of gambling, and sending them through the mail (or delivering them in person or by computer, but mailing money to participate) violates Title 18, United States Code, Section 1302, the Postal Lottery Statute. (Chain letters that ask for items of minor value, like picture postcards or recipes, may be mailed, since such items are not things of value within the meaning of the law.)

"Chain letters don't work because the promise that all participants in a chain letter will be winners is mathematically impossible. Also, many people participate, but do not send money to the person at the top of the list. Some others create a chain letter that lists their name numerous times--in various forms with different addressee. So, in reality, all the money in a chain is going to one person.

"Do not be fooled if the chain letter is used to sell inexpensive reports on credit, mail order sales, mailing lists, or other topics. The primary purpose is to take your money, not to sell information. "Selling" a product does not ensure legality. Be doubly suspicious if there's a claim that the U.S. Postal Service or U.S. Postal Inspection Service has declared the letter legal. This is said only to mislead you. Neither the Postal Service nor Postal Inspectors give prior approval to any chain letter."

There's more but those are the most relevant paragraphs.

Yes, Tami, I know, you BELIEVE that YOUR chain letter is, for some unspecified reason, exempt from these clear prohibitions.
michelle
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 | 09:33 PM
Cranky Media Guy said:

Just another quick note.

Shakespeare Ave. in the Bronx is a very unlikely place for an attorney to live. Unless he is a really POOR attorney, that is. It ain't exactly the high rent district.

Michelle says:

The origianl letter probably has nothing to do with the man that you are referring to. (Mr. Louis Jordan/1234 Shakespeare Avenue/Apt # 2E/Bronx, NY 10452) is probably someone just like many other people that hope for the best turn out in this chain letter. The attorney may or may not be an attorney but Mr. Louis Jordan is probably someone who is looking to try to better his life and really thought that this could work.

I think if everyone could be honest and follow the letter completely with no promise to make hundreds of thousands of dollars, I think that this could really work. I think what most of these people are trying to say is that regardless of this chain letter being illegal or not, this is something that could work if everyone would just be honest and keep the dollars rolling.
Tami:Dream Catcher
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 | 12:51 AM
Thanks. I read that already. I've read that several times in various places, each section it covers. What you sent is an interpretation. I've enclosed part of the actual section. This isn't a chain letter, nor is it a lottery or chance. I've searched these codes and sections and they refer to lotteries, tickets, etc.

This is from Cornell and this is the title 18, section 1302. Some may think it's a bad idea, but it's not illegal according what I've read. I'm asking to be put on a list and for others that want to be put on my list, which I've had for several years.

Cranky, I'm not directing this to you for your response. I hear you and I don't need anymore from you. Yes, Tami is my name. If it wasn't and I broke any laws, our gov't would find me in a New York minute. I don't want you stalking me, however, so all you need is 'Tami'. So, back off with your threats. You can't trick me into giving you my name. Since you don't seem to have a life, other than being online, I won't give you any info. You could be...weird. Not saying you are, could be?? And, I'm just not available.


If I'm wrong, I'll know soon enough. Again, thanks for all your help, cranky and hell guy. I'm okay with my decision.

You may check Cornell, yourself or FindLaw or any of those sites. Good reading.


Cornell UniversityCornell Law School

* Search Law School
* Search Cornell

LII / Legal Information Institute



U.S. Code collection




Illustration: U.S. Capitol



TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 61 >
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 | 02:50 AM
Michelle said:

"I think if everyone could be honest and follow the letter completely with no promise to make hundreds of thousands of dollars, I think that this could really work. I think what most of these people are trying to say is that regardless of this chain letter being illegal or not, this is something that could work if everyone would just be honest and keep the dollars rolling."

Nope, not possible. Here's why:

http://www.interleaves.org/~rteeter/pyramid.html
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 | 03:15 AM
Tami, let's take a look at what the postal service says point by point, shall we?

"There's at least one problem with chain letters. They're illegal if they request money or other items of value and promise a substantial return to the participants. Chain letters are a form of gambling, and sending them through the mail (or delivering them in person or by computer, but mailing money to participate) violates Title 18, United States Code, Section 1302, the Postal Lottery Statute. (Chain letters that ask for items of minor value, like picture postcards or recipes, may be mailed, since such items are not things of value within the meaning of the law.)"

So, Tami, are you asking the participants in YOUR chain to send money to someone with the expectation that they will profit by doing so? Why, yes, you are. Golly, the U.S. Postal Service says that's illegal. Of course, according to you, that's an "interpretation," whatever THAT means.

Oh, but all Tami is trying to do is help other people get some much-needed money. What do you say to THAT, U.S. Postal Service?

"Chain letters don't work because the promise that all participants in a chain letter will be winners is mathematically impossible. Also, many people participate, but do not send money to the person at the top of the list. Some others create a chain letter that lists their name numerous times--in various forms with different addressee. So, in reality, all the money in a chain is going to one person."

Gee, the U.S. Postal Service says the exact same thing I've been saying from the start of this thread: CHAIN LETTERS DON'T WORK BECAUSE THEY CAN'T.


But, you mean old Postal Service, Tami isn't running a "chain letter." She's merely charging people to be put on her mailing list. That makes everything legal, right?

"Do not be fooled if the chain letter is used to sell inexpensive reports on credit, mail order sales, MAILING LISTS, or other topics. The primary purpose is to take your money, not to sell information. 'Selling' a product does not ensure legality." [emphasis mine]

Tami, you've apparently convinced yourself that you've invented the wheel. You haven't come up with anything that many others haven't tried before you. And yes, despite your BELIEF to the contrary, you WILL be breaking the law if you run this chain.

OK, we've now covered the illegality of chain letters in enough detail that any bright child can understand it. Would you now like me to explain the impossible math required to make a chain work in a manner that ANYONE can understand? I'd be more than happy to.

I realize you're "not concerned" with the math (which makes me question your motives) but I'd LOVE to see you refute what I would say.
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 | 09:41 AM
Tami, you have still not explained how your procedure will make everyone money. Please do so.

If you refuse to do so I will be forced to conclude that your refusal is because there is no explanation - it's all a scam.
Tami:Dream Catcher
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 | 12:33 PM
Michelle said..

"I think if everyone could be honest and follow the letter completely with no promise to make hundreds of thousands of dollars, I think that this could really work. I think what most of these people are trying to say is that regardless of this chain letter being illegal or not, this is something that could work if everyone would just be honest and keep the dollars rolling."

That's pretty much what I think also, Michelle. I'm not saying if I will make money. I'm saying I am giving it a try. I'm not convinced that it's illegal.

Cranky is exactly the reason why I don't tell everyone what I'm doing. He believes his interpretation of this letter being a chain is the only interpretation. If you don't believe him you are an "asshole" or a scammer. In the past I've taken risks with more money than a couple hundred dollars and lost. Sometimes I won. Multi-level marketing is an example, race tracks, poker games, lotteries, etc are another. Does everyone win? No. Are the losers suckers? Maybe, in Cranky's words, they are but, I'd rather risk being a 'sucker' and enjoy the chance, than to sit on this site cyber yelling. I wonder what kind of life that is. I'm 'deleting' him by ignoring him as I do when my dogs are yappy and demanding my attention.

I left a couple messages with US Post Offtce's fraud division for more accurate information as to whether this letter would be considered a chain letter. They haven't called me back as of today. I'll let everyone know how I make out.

I think I'm going to find another site also. I'd like a more adult 'conversation' without the insults from a cry baby. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me but I don't tolerate name calling and the like. There doesn't seem to be many people on this site anyway.
Charybdis
in Hell
 Member
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 | 01:05 PM
<i>I think I'm going to find another site also. I'd like a more adult 'conversation' without the insults from a cry baby. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me but I don't tolerate name calling and the like. There doesn't seem to be many people on this site anyway.</i>

I find this humorous since you're the one throwing tantrums, calling people names, and generally whining because people refuse to see things your way. You've stated many times that you're running away, yet you still seem to be around.

And you ignored my question. How does your plan make money for everyone who participates. I await your answer.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 | 06:18 PM
Tami:Scam Operator said:

"Cranky is exactly the reason why I don't tell everyone what I'm doing. He believes his interpretation of this letter being a chain is the only interpretation. If you don't believe him you are an "asshole" or a scammer."

How many times have I suggested to you that you visit a library (like the finest library in the world, the Library of Congress, in your own city) to get the FACTS about chain letters?

How many times have I suggested you call one of the thousands of lawyers in your city to get a legal opinion?

How many times have I suggested you contact the U.S. Postal Service, which is, of course, also located in Washington, D.C.?

Which of those suggestions involves ME insisting that people take what I say at face value?

You keep saying that I'm insisting that you take MY word at face value because it is a way out of explaining why you won't do any of the simple things I have suggested, which would, of coure, be the polar opposite of taking MY word for anything.

There are two possibilities for this. One is that part of your brain is afraid that I'm right and following any of my suggestions would result in your hearing that other people in a position to know what's what support my position. In Tami World, facts are rejected when they conflict with your pre-drawn conclusion.

The second possibility is that you KNOW damn well that chain letters are an ILLEGAL scam based on impossible math, therefore no verification is needed.

"In the past I've taken risks with more money than a couple hundred dollars and lost. Sometimes I won. Multi-level marketing is an example, race tracks, poker games, lotteries, etc are another. Does everyone win? No. Are the losers suckers?"

Your communications skills indicate, at least to me, that you are not stupid. I conclude, therefore, that it is WILLFUL on your part to not see (or concede) the difference between LEGAL activities like a lottery or pari-mutual wagering and an ILLEGAL activity like operating or taking part in a chain letter.

"Maybe, in Cranky's words, they are but, I'd rather risk being a 'sucker' and enjoy the chance, than to sit on this site cyber yelling."

I actually don't care very much about whether or not you waste your own money on this ILLEGAL chain letter. I DO care about the people you are trying to sucker into it, however. And, yes, Tami, no matter what you "believe," you ARE trying to sucker people into an illegal scam.

I showed you, point by point, that the Postal Service has more than an "opinion" about the illegality of chain letters. I notice with fascination that you're completely ignoring that refutation. Gosh, I can't imagine why!

"I think I'm going to find another site also. I'd like a more adult 'conversation' without the insults from a cry baby. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me but I don't tolerate name calling and the like."

You mean like when you repeatedly say that I must have an empty life and I would be a bad parent because I didn't teach my kids that impossible scams like chain letters are a good thing to be involved in?

So, you're leaving this site yet again? You've had more "retirements" than Barbra Streisand, Cher and The Who combined.

When can we expect the Tami Comeback Tour?
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 | 07:54 PM
I'm with Chary, by the way. I'd LOVE to hear how you intend to ensure that all the participants in your chain letter will come out ahead financially.

See, if you CAN'T do that (and you CAN'T, at least not honestly) then you're engaging in GAMBLING, another of the things the U.S. Postal Service says is illegal to do via the mail.
jiji
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 | 12:14 PM
I think Tammi understands cranky. You tried the scam a long time ago and you lost money, now you are fighting it and shoving it down as many throats as you can. You seached, and did more research, you read, you read more, and I believe that you can not get over the fact that once up on a time you indeed tried it and in hopes of it working and it didn't, (and I know it does not work), that you can not get over it. You are well informed on the whole matter, very informed, intrigueingly informed, to the point of obsession. People will find out all about the legality terms, sooner or later. They will find out about failure. It will be their loss, it will be their mistake. Just because you are here to lay out the terms and the legal aspects does not adhere to the fact people will try something once no matter what the outcome, good or bad. I believe that when you got burnt on this chain letter deal you can't get over it and you are obsessed with it all. Why else would you be on this forum? You have tried it, and if you say you haven't you are being untruthful to yourself. Let it out cranky, obsess no more, people will learn without you telling them everything there is to know about chain letters. Life will go on as a matter of factly, with or without you on this forum.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 | 02:26 AM
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 | 05:49 AM
I got an email notification of the following although I don't see it on this thread (so I don't know who wrote it). I'm responding to it anyway.
jiji
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 | 12:27 PM
everything you post are my sentiments exactly. Let them along, let them learn. You can't be there for every injustice that happens with these chain letters. Just leave for a while, don't come back for a month or so. Cool down, don't research anything, don't even read, just relax and say over and over to yourself, I don't have to let them know, they will find out by their own actions, they will learn by their mistakes, I don't have to be so controlling on this subject, I do know everything about it but I will let it rest for a while, people will be who they are regardless of what I tell them or try to shove on them, I will let go, I will let go, I will let go, try it Cranky,
cnn
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 | 11:49 PM
So, chain letters dont work. But are they legal?
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 | 05:08 AM
Jiji, I'll try this one more time.

As I've said before, most of the time, I only post something on this thread in response to posts by other people. Therefore, *I* am not the one prolonging the thread, people like YOU are. Is that really so hard to understand?

Secondly, as I've also said before, I have no ability to control what other people do or don't do. I CANNOT MAKE people not participate in chain letters, even though you behave as if you believe that I have that mojo.

Since you MUST know that I can't control the actions of others, I can only conclude that you fear the accurate information I and others have given in this thread. You would like to be able to post message after message, misinforming people about the legality of chain letters and their ability to make money for every participant. To that I can only say, "Tough break for you."

"[J]ust relax and say over and over to yourself, I don't have to let them know, they will find out by their own actions, they will learn by their mistakes..."

Let's see if I can clarify this ONE MORE TIME. I really couldn't care less if scam artists like I suspect you are (or wish to be) lose their money in a stupid chain letter. I DO care, however, that a person who is in a tight money situation might lose THEIR money because they participated in one out of desperation.

The economy is headed for a bad patch, I (and others) believe and that's the kind of climate that makes people do unwise things. Yes, perhaps they should know better, but that doesn't mean that someone should take advantage of them. I would like to think that such a person might do a Google search for "chain letter" and find this thread, see what I and others have been saying and realize that it would be a waste of their time and money to be involved in a chain (plus they would be involved in something illegal if they participated).

Get it now or do I have to use smaller words? Hey, that "condescension" thing works both ways, huh?

cnn said:

"So, chain letters dont work. But are they legal?"

Not if they involve exchanging money or something else of value.
jiji
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 | 09:45 PM
Are you married? I think you are looking for me.
I know they are illegal, cranky, I just like your responses. You are watching and right on it every time. Fascinating, you are, and so devoted. Are you married for real, tell me.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 | 01:13 AM
Awwww, Jiji has a crush on me.

Yup, this boy is married (for the second time).

I found two women to make the same mistake. Scary, huh?

I'm both stranger and more normal than you'd ever imagine. I'm just a mass of contradictions.

Making you hot yet, Jiji?
John Per 777
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 | 02:03 PM
I think "Cranky Media Guy" and "Charybdis in Hell" are really the same person.

This "Cranky" dude is probably just trying to make us think that other people actually agree with him
John Per
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 | 02:36 PM
Hey,

For anyone interested in reading what Title 18, Section 1302 and 1341 of the US Postal and Lottery Laws really say concerning mails like this, copy and paste to your web browser the following two links:

1.(For Section 1302 "Mailing lottery tickets or related matter"):

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001302----000-.html

2.(For Section 1341 "Frauds and swindles"):

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=1341&url=/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001341----000-.html
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 | 03:16 PM
John per 777 said:

"I think "Cranky Media Guy" and "Charybdis in Hell" are really the same person."

As we've seen over the course of this thread, many people believe all sort of ridiculous things. This is just another one of them.

"Hey Cranky, are you a cop or something? If they want to try it let them; you are not going to be able to stop all "illegal" activities happening in the world (you
Sassyjazzy
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 | 04:37 PM
I think that it is so stupid how everyone is getting all upset over some chain letter. So what? If they want to do something illegal then let them do it, it's not going to affect anyone else besides them. Any way, people DO have a choice to not respond to the letters. Why are people comparing the chain letter to a bank robbery? How is telling someone to put money in a bag and putting a gun to their head the same as sending six dollars to people? Please! I am a law student and people have a choice, they always have a choice, if they want to participate in any illegal activities that will jeopardize their freedom, that's their decision and they will pay for it if they get caught. Cranky Media Guy, stop worrying about other people's problems, it's none of your business, you're not participating, you're not losing money so GET OVER IT! Get over you trying to be right and get a life, do something with yourself instead of staring at your computer screen all day and typing your opinions. Chain letters are illegal, but let the people do it if they TRUELY want to do them. Get a girlfriend so she can keep you away from the computer because I feel sorry for you. Get over it and leave the people alone, you're always trying to be right and if you take such pride in yourself and think that you're so much smarter than anyone else, do something with yourself like go to law school and educate people, but don't lecture them. Lighten up, it's none of your business, if people don't want to participate in the chain letters than good for them, get off of the computer and do something important with yourself if you REALLY care.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 | 07:30 PM
Sassyjazzy said:

"If they want to do something illegal then let them do it, it's not going to affect anyone else besides them."

Demonstrably not true. People join a chain in part because they see OTHER people joining them. Since the only people who make money from chain letters are the people who START them, the more people who join them, the more the scam artists make.

"Any way, people DO have a choice to not respond to the letters."

Whoever said they didn't?

"Why are people comparing the chain letter to a bank robbery? How is telling someone to put money in a bag and putting a gun to their head the same as sending six dollars to people?"

It isn't directly comparable. I've only used "bank robbery" as an example of an activitiy that IS a crime whether the perpetrator BELIEVES it is or not. If you've bothered to read any portion of this thread, you'll see people repeat over and over that they don't BELIEVE chain letters are illegal. As I've said many times now, something is either illegal or illegal, regardless of your personal BELIEF. What you BELIEVE isn't relevant (something that you, as a "law student" should know. Remember that whole "ignorance of the law is no excuse" thing?)

"Please! I am a law student and people have a choice, they always have a choice, if they want to participate in any illegal activities that will jeopardize their freedom, that's their decision and they will pay for it if they get caught."

Sorry, I don't believe that you are a law student, since you demonstrate no respect for the law. If you truly were a law student, you would be on my side of this debate. Do you NOT agree that people should have access to ACCURATE information about the legality of activities they are considering participating in? And do you not agree that they should NOT participate in illegal activities? If you don't agree with those two statements, you have NO business going into law practice of any kind.

"Cranky Media Guy, stop worrying about other people's problems, it's none of your business, you're not participating, you're not losing money so GET OVER IT!"

Thanks for your unasked for advice. Sorry, I have no intention of taking it. I've explained this recently, but you chain letter defenders apparently can't be bothered to actually read this thread, so I'll repeat it. I don't care is the scam artists who run chain letters lose THEIR money. I DO care, however, about people who may be in financial straits who put money into crooked schemes like chain letters out of desperation. I post here to give them accurate information and to helpfully prevent them from wasting their money on IMPOSSIBLE and ILLEGAL scams. Got it now?

Continued...
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 | 07:32 PM
...Continued

"Chain letters are illegal, but let the people do it if they TRUELY want to do them."

Again, I seem to be in the position of having to explain the incredibly obvious to someone. I have NO ability to STOP people from participating in a chain letter if they insist on doing so. I can only provide accurate information so they can make an informed decision.

As I've said to Tami, you MUST realize that I can't PREVENT anyone from doing anything so demanding that I stop doing it is disingenuous. What you REALLY want is for me to stop giving accurate information to people you prefer would get involved in a scam you very possibly have a financial interest in.

Please stop saying the same silly things I have responded to before. The situation will NOT change, no matter how many times you repeat irrational statements.

"Get a girlfriend so she can keep you away from the computer because I feel sorry for you. Get over it and leave the people alone, you're always trying to be right and if you take such pride in yourself and think that you're so much smarter than anyone else, do something with yourself like go to law school and educate people, but don't lecture them."

Well, as I've said, you chain letter defenders REALLY need to read at least the most recent postings to this thread before you jump in and say things that have been addressed in the past few days. If you had done that incredibly obvious thing, you would have seen that I said just the other day that I'm married and therefore am NOT in "need of a girlfriend."

Again, I don't believe for one moment that you are a law student.

Sassyjazzy, you are in position to perform a HUGE service for the people you think I'm harming in some way. Please explain to the rest of us unenlightened masses how a chain letter can result in every participant coming out ahead, money-wise.

Take a look at my previous post where I asked how a chain letter can result in extra money when none of the things that create profit are done and explain where, in the absence of those actions, the extra money comes from.

As a "law student," you're clearly bright, right, so you should easily be able to answer that simple question. Take your best shot, counselor.

In the meantime, stop with the irrelevant and inaccurate personal insults. That crap is getting very old. Stick to the topic or go away.
John Per
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 | 08:38 PM
Okay Mr.Cranky Media Guy I surrender, you win all the arguments.

Will you now get a life?
Abi
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 | 11:21 PM
Lol...
I agree with you too John...and everyone else but Mr Cranky and the hell guy (its the same guys btw) ....
this was fun!
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 | 01:15 AM
John said:

"Okay Mr.Cranky Media Guy I surrender, you win all the arguments."

You make the mistake of thinking that I am interested in your opinion of me, a person you have never met and know nothing about. I am not.

Now, if you'd like to contribute something to the discussion about chain letters, please do so. Understand, however, that if what you say is inaccurate, I and others will correct it. That's how life works for adults.
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 | 01:21 AM
Abi, do you have anything constructive to contribute to the discussion about chain letters?

I'm still interested in hearing any defender of chain letters explain how they work so that every participant comes out ahead.

You guys have SO much time to devote to irrelevant, inaccurate personal attack, but NONE apparently to explain how what you defend works. Fascinating.

If any of you could do that in a logical way, it would immediately eliminate one of my two criticisms of chain letters, namely that they CANNOT work.

If I was in your position, I'd WANT to do that.
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