The Museum of Hoaxes
A Postal-Mail Chain Letter?
Posted By:
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Nov 14, 2004
 I received this chain letter in my mailbox:

Dear Friend,
Greetings: I am a retired attorney. A few years ago a man came to me with a letter. He asked me to verify the fact that this was legal to do. I told him I would review it and get back to him. When I first red the letter my client brought me, I thought it was some "off-the-wall" idea to make money. A week and a half later we met in my office to discuss the issue. I told him the letter he originally brought me was not 100% legal. My client then asked me to later it to make it perfectly legal. I asked him to make one small change in the letter.

***
It goes on for another 2 pages about how if you send $1 to the 6 names on the list & you will make $800,000.00 in just 3 months. You pay for a list of names to send letters to. I KNOW this is a scam. I just can't figure out how I got it. It came to me at my married name (junk-mail tends to come to my maiden name), & it came to my actual house address. (My driver's license lists my PO Box & if you look me up at the DMV, the physical address is actually my prior residence...haven't had time to change it yet.) The phone & electric aren't registered in my name, they're registered to my husband. (There's not a water bill, we have a well.)

What I wanna know is: How did this come to me, with my correct name at my current physical address??? The 'person' who sent the letter is: Mr. Louis Jordan/1234 Shakespeare Avenue/Apt # 2E/Bronx, NY 10452

Also, a co-worker recently had someone slip this same letter under his door at his apartment building...Anyone hear anything about this??
Category: Scams; Replies: 1759

Comments
Page 27 of 30 pages ‹ First  < 25 26 27 28 29 >  Last ›
Butch
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 | 03:37 PM
What is it that actually makes a chain letter illegal. Please don't quote laws because I've seen them. What I mean is, what content in a chain letter makes it illegal?
Threeeyedowl
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 | 04:05 PM
A dollar makes it a misdemeanor that no one pays attention to except Mr. Cranky, his cronies, and a world full of Carfans.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 | 05:11 PM
Butch, this has been posted here many times before, but since you asked, here's what the U.S. Postal Service says about chain letters on its website:

From the U.S. Postal Service's website:

"There's at least one problem with chain letters. They're illegal if they request money or other items of value and promise a substantial return to the participants. Chain letters are a form of gambling, and sending them through the mail (or delivering them in person or by computer, but mailing money to participate) violates Title 18, United States Code, Section 1302, the Postal Lottery Statute. (Chain letters that ask for items of minor value, like picture postcards or recipes, may be mailed, since such items are not things of value within the meaning of the law.)

"The main thing to remember is that a chain letter is simply a bad investment. You certainly won't get rich. You will receive little or no money. The few dollars you may get will probably not be as much as you spend making and mailing copies of the chain letter.

"Chain letters don't work because the promise that all participants in a chain letter will be winners is mathematically impossible. Also, many people participate, but do not send money to the person at the top of the list. Some others create a chain letter that lists their name numerous times--in various forms with different addressee. So, in reality, all the money in a chain is going to one person."

Is that clear enough?
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 | 05:16 PM
Threeeyedowl said:

"A dollar makes it a misdemeanor that no one pays attention to except Mr. Cranky, his cronies, and a world full of Carfans."

You folks keep trying to make this thread about me, as if attacking me somehow changes the simple facts here. Unfortunately, that doesn't really work.

First off, chain letters, while they usually involve a small amount of money per sucker, are NOT typically asking for one dollar.

Second, the law isn't going after the people who mail their money in. It is about the scam artists who RUN the chains, however. Nice try at muddying the water.

Thirdly, what "cronies" do you hallucinate I have? What purpose would they serve?
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 | 05:20 PM
Threeeyedowl said:

"But you must have just scanned over it and not assimilated it. It is not something you would ever admit to because an admission like that would probably kill you. And that is why You...

are in denial... Sorry."

Please explain what exactly it is you think I'm in "denial" about. Should I live in fear of whatever it is that you think threatens to kill me? Honestly, I have NO idea what you're talking about.

I notice with interest that you completely ignored my question about why, if the principle behind chain letters works as claimed, we don't simply run our entire economy by it. Gee, is it possible YOU are in denial about the impossibility of such a thing?
Threeeyedowl
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 | 08:32 PM
You're so serious Mr. Cranky. I bet you have hemorrhoids.
Butch
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 | 10:41 PM
What if one were to create a chain letter that makes no promises of getting rich but has a great product. You buy 5 products at a dollar each, and leave it at that or share it with all your family and friends. And the products are definitely something you'd want to share, especially with family and friends. No one is going to get rich but I believe their is a few bucks that can be made, and the most important part is the possible health benefits. And if you don't buy the product you can't continue the letter eliminating cheating. This is people legitimately helping people and maybe making a few bucks in the process. I don't see how they would be able to consider that illegal. The real reason a chain letter was deemed illegal is because of the outlandish claims of riches in such a short period of time. Anyone who falls for "Turn $5. into $150,000.00 in 5 weeks" deserves to lose there 5 dollars. I propose a chain letter where you actually buy 5 products that are worth a buck a piece or more. I mean how much is one's health worth?
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 | 02:05 AM
Threeeyedowl said:

"You're so serious Mr. Cranky. I bet you have hemorrhoids."

Translation: I have no rational response for the things you've said so I'll resort to stupid insults instead."

Butch said:

"What if one were to create a chain letter that makes no promises of getting rich but has a great product. You buy 5 products at a dollar each, and leave it at that or share it with all your family and friends."

Congratulations, Butch. You just reinvented capitalism. Would you like to tackle that "wheel" thing now?
Mary from Maryland
Member
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 | 05:23 AM
Cranks your assumptions and allegaions about my "involvement" in the chain letter are interesting. You simply can't resist personalising the issue. From what I have posted this is what you can deduce:
1) I have been the recepient of a chain letter.
2) I have a friend who has, by his own admission profitted by a chain letter. (Not the $800,000 my friend said his letter claimed he could make, but he made around $15000)
3) I question the morality of a system that prints off $800billion that does not in fact exist in the real economy,then turns around and donates it in the form of business welfare to the most crooked and incompetent banks in the Western world (ie US banks).Then tells people it's illegal for them to direct their $1 (that in fact does exist in the real economy) to 6 strangers and sees what happens.
From my tone you should have picked up that I am not totally convinced that this type of chain-letter does in fact work to the extent it's authors claim. I believe sometimes it does work and other times it doesn't, ie it's unpredictable.

You accuse me of working for the chain-mailers and/or the listing companies, of having actively participated in the chain-mail, of lying about my IT friend, and to cap it off you claim that both the govt's actions and the chain-mailers actions are equally bad, which defies any logic. (We didn't elect the govt to to squander our money and make gratis donations to banks - chain mailers are not eleted representatives and not in the same category).
Everything I have posted here I have done truthfully and in good faith but your accusatory style and attack on anyone's integrity whose world view doesn't coincide with yours, shows you up to be one twisted, bitter & twisted soul.
Butch
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 | 12:28 PM
Wow! I guess I came to the wrong place. I wasn't looking for sarcasm. But I guess if that's all you got, I won't bother you any more.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 | 01:56 PM
Mary said:

"You accuse me of working for the chain-mailers and/or the listing companies, of having actively participated in the chain-mail, of lying about my IT friend, and to cap it off you claim that both the govt's actions and the chain-mailers actions are equally bad, which defies any logic."

I notice that you do NOT actually deny being involved in a chain letter.

OK, at what point did I ever say that the rip-offs perpetrated by the banking system and chain letters were equally bad? What I DID say is that it is possible to be concerned about both scams.

Your logic seems to be that since there are mega crimes going on, there's no point in worrying about smaller crimes. Following that reasoning, the police shouldn't deal with home burglaries since there are murders being committed. It isn't an either-or thing.

"I have a friend who has, by his own admission profitted by a chain letter. (Not the $800,000 my friend said his letter claimed he could make, but he made around $15000)"

Mary, did you ever ask yourself where the $15,000 your friend allegedly got came from? Did it ever occur to you that any profit he or she made came from other people who LOST everything they put into the chain? Do you think that those people see a chain letter as a good or harmless thing? Where is your concern for them?

As has been carefully explained several times over the course of this thread, in order for a person to make 10 times their initial "investment," say, 9 other people have to LOSE their money.

"I believe sometimes it does work and other times it doesn't, ie it's unpredictable."

The simple arithmetic behind a chain letter is actually very predictable. Who specifically may come out ahead is impossible to predict, especially since the scam artists may not be running the chain "honestly" (i.e. according to the premise they've established).

As for me "personalizing" the issue, you might want to go back and look at who showed up and started throwing around insults. 'Nuff said.
Mary from Maryland
Member
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 | 03:51 PM
Cranks, my friend didn't rob the $15000. It was directed to him by people who willingly parted with it - in the hope and belief that they would profit. He himself told me that it cost him several hundred dollars to take part in it and he had no illusions of possibly losing the lot. I am sure had he not made any money he would have taken it on the chin as a mature person would and not become a bitter and tortured soul as a result of the experience. According to the letter I got recently, I'd have to spend just over $206 dollars to send off 200 letters. I choose not to, but had I chosen to, it would be completely voluntary and I would hold nobody responsible if I lost out.
Again, people have the choice of not participating and allowing themselves to lose or gain money - its a gamble. And as such it deserves no more demonising than gambling knowingly with the lotteries. Govt gambling with our monies in the way it does is another kettle of fish. They don't have a mandate to do that.

Ok, let me tell you categorically and emphatically that I am not in the mail order business in any shape or form. Nor am I in any way, either directly, indirectly,or telepathetically linked with the companies that sell lists. I'm a elemetary school teacher and have a rather boring and modest financial life - with the exception of winning a trip to Italy 10 years agowhen I lived inthe UK! (No chain letter involved there. And I am sure there were more worthy people than me who could have won that prize, but we all bought a 10pound ticket and my name happened to be drawn as the second prize winner. I didn't rob anyone of their Italian dreams)
You seem to have difficulty wrapping your head around the fact that periodically people participate in gambles that lose/gain them money. As long as there is no coersion involved that's fine - that's life.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 | 05:08 PM
Mary said:

"Cranks, my friend didn't rob the $15000."

I never said that your friend robbed the money, so you're arguing against a point I didn't make.

"Again, people have the choice of not participating and allowing themselves to lose or gain money - its a gamble. And as such it deserves no more demonising than gambling knowingly with the lotteries."

This has been said many times over the course of this thread, but I guess it needs to be said yet again: state-run lotteries are legal, chain letters are NOT legal.

Part of the reason for that is that legal lotteries never claim to be able to make everyone come out ahead (a mathematical impossibility) while chain letters DO often make that claim.

Lotteries are also accountable to the public (in how they are run and what the money is used for) while chain letters are not.

"Govt gambling with our monies in the way it does is another kettle of fish. They don't have a mandate to do that."

I don't disagree with that but it's irrelevant to the topic of chain letters. One impropriety does not excuse another one. Put another way, two wrongs don't make a right.

"You seem to have difficulty wrapping your head around the fact that periodically people participate in gambles that lose/gain them money."

No, that is not a problem for me. You, on the other hand, seem to have a problem distinguishing between a LEGAL lottery which discloses the odds of winning and an ILLEGAL chain letter which claims that every participant can come out ahead, something which is IMPOSSIBLE and therefore a lie.
Julie
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 | 07:50 PM
Ok, so I have spent most of my evening reading through this fourm. First I have to say a few things my space bar is broken so forgive any errors in that regard, and my spelling and grammar suck. So please don't rip on me I am well aware of my downfalls.

First I can't belive that this fourm is still going on, I keep reading and reading and its just never ending. But then it makes sense because I think I have now gotten 3 of these "Chain Letters." I take responsibilty for it as in a month of desperation I thought maybe there really was a home base something were a person might be able to actaully work from home and make some extra money. So I gave my info on the internet like a dumb a**. However I am pretty sure I didn't give my address but who know it was so long ago now. Any way each letter I have gotten has been pretty much the same, and only a few small differences. There are differnt names on the lists, but it just makes me feel sad to think that there really are people who believe this just may work.

I have done some research as I didn't want to get scamed in my quest for extra cash, but until today didn't stumble onto this site. I do have to say I was tempted it seems like a great idea but wanted to thank everyone for their helpful posts and pointing out all the tricks to make you think its legal. Also for doing the math for me as I am just not capable of that. (failed it a few times)

I work in the feild of CJ, and must say that i wonder how this letter keeps getting around. I am sure it has been brought to the attention of the postmaster at some point, but then of course people don't really send replies so it mustn't get noticed.

I skiped through the last I don't know like 30 pages of posts though so I don't know if some has actaully taken the letter to their post office and asked them. I am not saying I am going to do that, because I am sure the people whos names are on this list are just poor suckers who thought maybe just maybe this might work, but i just wanted to know if there has been any posts on here regarding that.
Mary from Maryland
Member
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 | 05:54 AM
Cranks, I have to say that other than in the uber-fine print for which you need a magnifying glass to read, I've never seen a lottery that discloses your real chances of winning, or should I say loosing. Last time I looked, the Maryland Lottery was advertising the multi-gazillions up for grabs with Powerball, all advertised in giant numbers and bright happy colors accompanied by triumphant faces. The laws of disclosure can hardly be called even remotely adequate. All designed to entice you to participate...kinda like the chain letters...
Here is where my point regarding bad govt behaviour comes in. I think you need to take into account that for a lot of people there is such a thing as a 'moral economy' as well as a 'legal economy'. Our economy has legalised a lot of thievery and has thus lost its moral basis and that this why legal or not, these chain letters continue to persist, because in this country the law has lost the high moral ground. When people see the govt actively taking from future generations of Americans, creating nonstop debt, through printing eight billion dollars and donating it to crooked banks who refuse to discontinue outrageous bonuses then the 'law' stops being respected and they laugh at the notion of chain letters being ohhh so bad and evil, when right in front of their noses some mega "scams"s are taking place "legally". I'm not saying this is good - this is what has happened. The law has lost its respect, the charge being led by crooked lawmakers and corporations.

Julie in Michigan, a point to bear in mind about the continual reappearance of these letters is this. There are some people who have made money out of these chain letters. They don't advertise the fact or hop on these threads airing their thoughts like we do. Thse forums are for the spectators. But often there are people like me (and the gentleman on this forum that came on many moons ago talking about that young man at his work who made $600,000 though these letters)who know directly of one person who made money. So lots of people know of 1 person who made money. The reality is that we can't possibly know the real number because the winners keep it under wraps. There may be people who never tell anyone at all. I worked with a woman who inherited through a deceased bachelor uncle several million dollars and no one knew for years until she retired that she was in fact fabulously wealthy. So lots of people fullstop do not by their discreet nature talk about windfalls. In fact, the letter I received tells the reader, and I'll quote here "...to keep it quiet for a while...and once it has worked for you, then share it with family and friends"
So we really are speculating on whether they work or not. But I am sure they will continue to reappear for years to come, because like the lotteries, they sell hope, legal or otherwise.
karphan
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 | 07:05 PM
I wasn't scared into not doing this chain thing by cranky, I just saw flaws in this system that I didn't want to take a chance with.

Could be one reason this is illegal is the government has no control over how to tax this, same for pot, if pot was taxed, it in itself would be legal, forget the fact it gets you high, liquor gets you drunk, cops pull you over and BAM more money for the local government.
Squeaker
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 | 12:45 PM
It has nothing to do with taxation. It has to do with history - the incident in 1935 when a letter of this type almost destroyed Colorado through economic collapse.

Read some of the older pages, around page 40 or so.
john
Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 | 03:17 PM
I got this a year ago when i was pretty financially sound. I hit a rut lost my house my job and now im in debt and it will probably take me 10 years to get out of it. I tried this did a little research and you know what if it works it works. What do i have to lose i guess if you try to make some easy money to survive its illegal right. This is such a crock of shit that its illegal. I mean there arent any jobs out there as it is. The rich get richer and theres no middle class anymore. Just because its not done over the internet or for some law back in 1935 that no one knows about i mean its illegal. I would love to see some money come back so i could catch up on some bills, but im sure that if i do it will get taken away just like everything else because the govt is to involved in screwing over the people that actually try to make a good living and not the ones that make this country worse than it already is. Its funny how rich bush and cheney are isnt is when they only made 400 grand a year haha yeah right. Or condoleeza rice having a oil boat named after her but after people caught on she had it striped from the boat so no one would get suspicious. Who cares about a stupid letter that could help some little people out. This just shows you incompetance and where the heads are in this country. I guess ill go to jail for 5 to 30 years for something i had no idea about and someone that lets just say donte stallworth MURDERS someone and gets like 18 days in jail. BULLSHIT
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 | 05:46 PM
Mary and John, I think you should keep in mind that the people who operate chain letters are not "little guys" fighting against the corruption in society. They are con artists who use people's fear of going under economically and their misunderstanding of basic arithmetic to take their money.

The fact that there are large injustices in the world (something I do not dispute) does NOT mean that chain letters work as claimed.

"Cranks, I have to say that other than in the uber-fine print for which you need a magnifying glass to read, I've never seen a lottery that discloses your real chances of winning, or should I say loosing."

Well, the disclosure may not be prominent enough for your liking, but it does exist. On the other hand, have you ever seen a chain letter (or ANY kind of scam) that tells you it's designed solely to separate you from your money? The wording is typically something like, "If we're all honest, everyone can come out ahead," which is a mathematical impossibility.
Mary from Maryland
Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 | 03:24 PM
What's really weird with Cranky is his rabid insistance that it is a mathematical impossibility and never works! Well it worked for one person I know so either I must either be a liar or imagining the whole thing in your book. People who are in the chain mail are "little guys" - they're not the Ted Turners or Rupert Murdochs or the three families who own the Feds; they don't need to participate in the chains, they rip people off with the blessing of the govt...your obsessed with the little guy doing chain mail....weird weid
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 | 05:18 PM
Mary said:

"What's really weird with Cranky is his rabid insistance that it is a mathematical impossibility and never works! Well it worked for one person I know so either I must either be a liar or imagining the whole thing in your book."

OR your reading comprehension is sub-par. What I always say is that chain letters CANNOT work AS CLAIMED. That's a reference to stuff chain letters often say like, "If we're all honest, we everyone can come out ahead." (In fact I said just that in the last comment I posted, right at the end.) THAT, Mary, IS a mathematical impossibility.

OF COURSE an INDIVIDUAL can come out ahead with a chain letter. Why do you think scam artists run them?

"People who are in the chain mail are "little guys" - they're not the Ted Turners or Rupert Murdochs or the three families who own the Feds; they don't need to participate in the chains, they rip people off with the blessing of the govt...your obsessed with the little guy doing chain mail....weird weid"

Your logic is that since "big guys" rip people off, it's OK for smaller fish to operate scams. I'd like to point out to you that "big guys" don't put money into chain letters. It's the people who can least afford to lose a few bucks who get involved with them. In other words, they are victims of the "big guys "AND the "little guys." How does that help them?
Tart
Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 | 05:47 AM
Mary...

You've seen how much good a grassroots movement can do. These letters are an example of the other side of the same principle, a grassroots movement that harms everyone instead of helping.

In essence, the letter is the pimp; you're the whore serving him, if you delude yourself into thinking it will work for you.
Mary from Maryland
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 | 06:55 AM
If we are going to take the 'harm' angle, I think state sanctioned gambling and debt-addictiveness, lotteries and casinos, drugs and corporate theft (again usually govt sanctioned) are a good place to start not chain-letters. Have you ever heard of a chain-letter addict whos lost mega bunks???

While these $1 to 6 people letters don't create wealth, they transfer existing monies. (Unlike the govt's $800billion print off that was transferred to the wealthy and the taxpayer left to pay it off for generations to come) Let's say we have city of 8001 adults. Lets also say that at one point 8000 of these adults decide to voluntarily divert a dollar to one of their residents who needs the money. Ok so their fellow resident is $8000 richer. This money is already in the economy, its simply being transferred around. If lots of people think it's a good idea they'll do it and it will work. If they don't it won't work. No one is being ripped off. Why is this so hard to understand.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 | 01:55 PM
Mary said:

"Let's say we have city of 8001 adults. Lets also say that at one point 8000 of these adults decide to voluntarily divert a dollar to one of their residents who needs the money. Ok so their fellow resident is $8000 richer."

OK, so what's stopping you from organizing something like that? It would be perfectly legal and you'd know where the money was going. It's what charities do every day.

With a chain letter, you don't get to pick who gets the windfall, assuming that anyone gets it at all--after all, you don't know that the person running the chain hasn't rigged the game by using multiple identities.

I'll say it again in the hope that this time you might get it. Chain letters do NOT promise to make ONE individual come out ahead. They typically make claims that EVERYONE can come out ahead, which is mathematically impossible. You keep ignoring this point.

Mary, you seem to think that chain letters are just harmless fun which the mean old government is trying to spoil. You might want to go back through this thread and find the links to news stories about how chains have actually destroyed the economy of a country or two. Is that likely to happen in THIS country? Not really, but back in the 1930's, they clogged up the postal system very badly.
Tart
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 | 04:50 PM
Mary... chain letter addicts have lost "mega-bucks" repeatedly.

The same folks who fall for chain letters tend to fall for everything else, too. Ad Surf Daily. Elite Activity. Gasoline pills. Phony ant farms. Nigerian Lads. Laetrile.

Think about it for a bit.
hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
 Member
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 | 06:46 PM
Are phony ant farms full of cute little wind-up ants?
Tart (but not tiny)
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 | 09:47 PM
No. That was a reference to a scheme in China not long ago where people were led to believe that they were raising gourmet ants for restaurants, but all the company behind it did with filled ant farms sent back to them was dump them out, refill with sand and whatever was used as starter ants, and sell it to another sucker.

Much like the bacterial cosmetics schemes that hit mid-western america around 2-3 decades ago.
Andie
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 | 02:50 PM
Well Friends; I have received this letter at least three times and passed it off as a possible effort at will. I have listened intently to this thread and find that we as a desperate nation really are not sure what is fact or fiction. As was so eloquently stated (Paraphrased Version) a pyramid is a chance to make the guy at the top a fat cat with everyone else receiving little or nothing for their efforts. The key here is chance, of which is left open to interpretation. We must be our own conscious police when it comes to interpretation. We must be able to make a decision that reflects our own personal values system. If we fail to listen to our own conscience then we have numbed our very sense of reasoning. I can
SUNNY
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 | 10:09 PM
I think someone figured out how to beat the system I got one of those letters about sending money to the names on the list and request being added then it has on the other page how it SHOULD work and explains that GOD is the way to pray over how many will help you...... it's one of the amendments freedom of religion..... this one just might be legal.....
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 | 12:55 AM
SUNNY said:

"it's one of the amendments freedom of religion..... this one just might be legal....."

So, Sunny, using your logic, if a person robs a bank but says it's because God told them to, they would get away with it?

Sorry but it doesn't work that way. This would hardly be the be the first time in America that criminals used people's faith to scam them. You have not discovered a "loophole" in the law.
Ray from Oregon
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 | 02:41 AM
Well I am sending Letters out tomorrow... I got the letter a few weeks ago and have done a lot of thinking. My wife did somthing like this a few years back, except she was to give her panty size ... and a bunch of her girlfriends were getting boxes of sexy underware .. lol .. as silly as it sounds it worked .. it was anoing to say the least ... for weeks little panties can flooding to our mail box ... I am going to say a few bucks will come in as well. I am going to try it first hand ... if it does not work, oh well .. I dont want to do it to get rich, I have a great life, & great job. I want to test it out .. just cause I can, I want to get to the bottom of the debate ... what can it hurt? ... I will let you all know how it all turns out!
dan
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 | 08:54 AM
hi there, i received the letter also and have been trying to decide whether to do it or not. I jumped on line to see what I could find out about it and I'm really surprised at all the people that are so concerned about it being illegal. I try to be as honest and legal as the next guy, but why are any of the people above so concerned about other people trying to make a buck and I don't see why the post office would have a problem, they're most likely very happy to see people using stamps. So honestly where's the moral problem?? My question is; is there any reality to the oprah / 20/20 stuff. that's what I came on line to find??
Butch
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 | 12:47 PM
Don't fall for the 20/20 thing, that is a lie just like the Opra test, and the kid who's mom and dad supposedly found 70,000 bucks in his closet. When asked where he got it he claimed from mailing a chain letter. they are illegal because they are filled with lies and ridiculous claims of the money one could make. Come on, hundreds of thousands in just a few weeks. Give me a break.

I however I have created a letter without all the lies and ridiculous claims that sells valuable info which can improve ones health. I am sending it out for the first time next week. Snail mail will not be involved. It's all done on the Internet. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 | 01:21 PM
Dan said:

"I'm really surprised at all the people that are so concerned about it being illegal."

Yeah, why are you so concerned about breaking a federal law, you stupid people?

"I try to be as honest and legal as the next guy..."

Uh, no you don't as witnessed by the previous sentence.


"I don't see why the post office would have a problem, they're most likely very happy to see people using stamps."

If you bothered to take five minutes to actually read this thread, you'd see the exact part of the U.S. Postal Service's website which explains why chain letters are illegal. Yes, Dan, the Post Office DOES "have a problem" with chain letters.

"My question is; is there any reality to the oprah / 20/20 stuff. that's what I came on line to find??"

Again, Dan, you could have found that exact information if you bothered to read the thread. Reader's Digest version: Oprah has never done a show about chain letters and she's certainly never endorsed one. I doubt that will make any difference to you, though, since you seem determined to believe in absolute nonsense.
Butch
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 | 02:31 PM
Hey cranky, why don't you tone it down a bit! Instead of using this forum to try and convince people what a wonderful smart person you are, when in reality you're nothing more than a bully with a condescending attitude, why don't you just answer people's questions directly!!! Not all people have as much time to waste on this forum as you do. And don't bother trying to goat me into a debate. I won't waste my time with someone who thinks their crap don't stink!
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 | 05:11 PM
Butch said:

"Not all people have as much time to waste on this forum as you do."

Translation: I'm not really interested in the FACTS. I want someone to just tell me what I want to hear.

Sorry, Butch, but when I see a person say they can't understand why people care about breaking the law, immediately followed by a comment about how honest they are, I find it very hard to take them seriously.
hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
 Member
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 | 06:11 PM
Really, I have more concerns about causing other people damage than I do breaking laws. If I break a law and get caught, it's me that's going to feel the pain. If I screw someone over, I'm hurting them.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 | 12:34 AM
hcmomof4 said:

"If I break a law and get caught, it's me that's going to feel the pain. If I screw someone over, I'm hurting them."

You talk as if those two things are mutually exclusive. Many, if not most, illegal acts are illegal precisely because they harm others.

I hope you don't impart your bizarre morality to your kids.
hcmomof4
in So. Cal.
 Member
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 | 12:49 AM
I don't mean them to be exclusive at all, but yes, I do try to teach my children that the main reason we have many of the laws we do is because people don't necessarily have my "bizarre" morality.

Many people can't see the purpose for some laws, (well, in honesty, there are some laws I don't get either, like why gay marriage isn't legal, but that's another issue...) which is why laws need to be in place. But it's not that tough to police your own actions, if you care to.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 | 01:25 PM
Mom, I think I was a little harsh with you and I'd like to apologize for that. I understand your position better now and I don't really disagree with it.

I'm completely with you about gay marriage, by the way.
Karphan
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 | 09:40 PM
Where is the updated link as to the laws stating this is illegal, I believe it's illegal but I want to see the U.S. post office wording on the matter. The other link for me did not work.


As for cranky I don't think he's making any money from telling people this is wrong, so why harp on him. On the other hand cranky, why give a hoot about what some people are willing to do. Let them make their choice to chance.


I'm jobless and been out of work for quite a while, I really wanted to try this thing out, I won't, but just show proof WHY It's illegal. Maybe this will end this longggg drawn out argument.
Ray from Oregon
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 | 10:05 PM
Karphan .. I got tired of trying to find the website with everything in black and white. So I went into the post office and asked the postman directly, He looked at the letter.. And said "He has seen this same letter for many years, Is it a chain? That
That Darn Blister
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 | 11:26 PM
Here's why your cousin the paralegal is about to end up losing her license, Ray:
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2002/02/eileenspam1.shtm
http://www.interleaves.org/~rteeter/pyramid.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_Money_Fast
Ray from Oregon
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 | 12:38 AM
Not all the letters are the same ... I actually tried to research this on the 'net since I recently received one of these letters. The links in previous answers had expired and no longer provided information. So, I did my own search. The sections and titles cited are filled with the usual "legalese" and can be confusing to the casual reader. I'm not a lawyer, ( so got my cousins opinion)I DO read a lot and have a fair vocabulary. Here's the nutshell version of Sections 1341 and 1342 which appear to govern this type of enterprise. You can put "Title 18 Section 1342" into your google box or ask box and then click on any link that takes you to the US Code references to see these for yourself. The one I used, which had the basic text of the laws, was from the Cornell University Law Library website.

Section 1341 simply stated says you can't use the mail to commit fraud with the intent of collecting something of value like money. It also says you can be fined or imprisoned for up to 20 years
That Darn Blister
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 | 01:44 AM
Funny... you missed 39 USC 3005, which makes sending lottery materials through the mails illegal. As well as the various laws cited by federal prosecutors in the 6 felony cases attached to that FTC website I gave you a short time ago. 6 convictions, you know.

And the claim of being a "mailing list" is not valid. Think about a little. What are you doing with said mailing list? Zilch, nada, nunca, nothing. Ditto for the receivers.

I.e. Pure fraud. Just like Dave Rhodes. Did you research him as well?
That Darn Blister
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 | 02:02 AM
And regarding your claims that links in previous posts didn't work, I just went back to http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/forum/forum_comments/2036/P780/
and checked the links I gave in May of 2008.

Lo and behold, the links to the USPS home page, the ones with "judicial" in the URL... worked perfectly.

Here they are again:
http://www.usps.com/judicial/1982deci/14-54.htm
http://www.usps.com/judicial/1986deci/24-131d.htm
http://www.usps.com/judicial/1988deci/29-117d.htm
http://www.usps.com/judicial/1987deci/26-163.htm


Let me also remind you about your own state's views regarding chain letters, Ray:
http://www.doj.state.or.us/finfraud/letter_081503.shtml
http://www.doj.state.or.us/releases/2002/rel040202.shtml
http://www.mmfhoh.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=747&sid=09563772f53e7099506576b2f91a86ee


That $25,000 per mailing that your Attorney General's office cited sounds like it's going to take a massive bite out of your finances, now doesn't it?
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 | 02:29 AM
Karphan said:

"Where is the updated link as to the laws stating this is illegal, I believe it's illegal but I want to see the U.S. post office wording on the matter."

Here you go, Karphan (straight from the U.S. Postal Service's website):

"There's at least one problem with chain letters. They're illegal if they request money or other items of value and promise a substantial return to the participants. Chain letters are a form of gambling, and sending them through the mail (or delivering them in person or by computer, but mailing money to participate) violates Title 18, United States Code, Section 1302, the Postal Lottery Statute. (Chain letters that ask for items of minor value, like picture postcards or recipes, may be mailed, since such items are not things of value within the meaning of the law.)

"The main thing to remember is that a chain letter is simply a bad investment. You certainly won't get rich. You will receive little or no money. The few dollars you may get will probably not be as much as you spend making and mailing copies of the chain letter.

"Chain letters don't work because the promise that all participants in a chain letter will be winners is mathematically impossible. Also, many people participate, but do not send money to the person at the top of the list. Some others create a chain letter that lists their name numerous times--in various forms with different addressee. So, in reality, all the money in a chain is going to one person.

"Do not be fooled if the chain letter is used to sell inexpensive reports on credit, mail order sales, mailing lists, or other topics. The primary purpose is to take your money, not to sell information. "Selling" a product does not ensure legality. Be doubly suspicious if there's a claim that the U.S. Postal Service or U.S. Postal Inspection Service has declared the letter legal. This is said only to mislead you. Neither the Postal Service nor Postal Inspectors give prior approval to any chain letter."
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 | 02:41 AM
To Ray from Oregon:

You know, Ray, it's absolutely amazing that you just couldn't manage to find the text I just pasted into the previous message. It's been posted here by me several times. In fact, I've actually had people tell me that I've posted so many times that it's unnecessary to post it again.

Each time, I patiently explained that not everyone has, or will take, the time to read the whole thread and new people come here all the time so my re-posting it is for their benefit.

Amazingly, people who want to convince others that chain letters are NOT illegal manage to not see the many times the Postal Service has been quoted here. Also amazingly, Blister's links have the ability to make themselves magically not work for those who don't want to see what they connect to.

By the way, we've see that whole "I spoke to my cousin who is pre-law and he said chain letters are legal" thing before. Ditto for "I asked the Christmas temp at my local post office and he said I should go for it."

Please promise me something, Ray. If and when you get caught for operating a chain letter, please use either of those as your defense. You stand a really good chance of making The Smoking Gun website that way.
Ray from Oregon
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 | 03:37 PM
I have been a successful small business man for over 8 years. If something like this would work I would have to keep a detailed LOG of all addresses received, monies collected and pay my taxes quarterly. I have also removed any BOGUS statements promising outlandish returns and selling the idea as a Business opportunity. I would then in return collect addresses and sell them to marketing firms on the back end. Title 18 Section does not apply in this case.
Not ALL solicitations are considered a chain or pyramid ... If that was the case I would not be able to DONATE $5 to support homeless teens of America every month and yes I send it in the mail, RELIGIOUSLY!
That being said I have looked at all the links you have posted. GREAT information! The link I was looking for was on the Title 18 Sections. (Which I found on my own) I have really appreciated this site. It has forced US ALL to do our homework.
Respectfully,
Ray
That Darn Blister
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 | 06:11 PM
Did you read what the overarching subject of the title 18 codes is?
Crime and punishments thereof, if you don't mind me paraphrasing it.


And while it is true that not all solicitations, or even most of them, are chains or pyramids, there is no possible way to change this kind of letter into a non-pyramid without removing the "consideration" or item of value, involved. The basic nature of the letter system is about as pure of a pyramid scheme as it gets.
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 | 01:45 AM
Ray from Oregon said:

"I have also removed any BOGUS statements promising outlandish returns and selling the idea as a Business opportunity. I would then in return collect addresses and sell them to marketing firms on the back end."

OK, so if someone sent you some money, what would they supposedly be getting in return? What is the "business" you claim to be representing?
karphan
Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 | 12:23 AM
Sorry, not trying to be an ass about this, thanks for posting those links and other info, I guess I'm trying for myself to get the facts straight.
brainsareforthinkin'
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 | 02:35 PM
Just to let you all know,
especially Cranky and Chary and Blister
Ive been reading this for 2 hrs now and I really appreciate your input. I now know that the chain letter I received is illegal and not a good idea for me or anyone else who gets the letter.

I did skip to the end so if I missed anyone else who is trying to prevent people from participating in illegal and immoral activities. My appologies.
Thanks for the info and input and for sticking with it for all this time(cranky).

Keep up the good work. 😊
F.D.R...Jr
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 | 08:46 PM
you know whats funny this debate. everyone may say this is a chain letter but i think honestly to consider it a chain letter everyone would have to participate in order to make the chain go on, if 10 people out of 200 people responded to this letter then some where in there the chain is broken. (It actually is people helping people) if everyone quit letting skepticism ruin their lives and give something a try before assuming or going off someone else's word then you will find it a little easier to make choices for yourself. With this illegal fact I haven't heard of one person getting prosecuted for this and the fact that it's still going on with no prosecutions just makeS everybody illegal perspective of it IRRELEVANT.I think all you so called SCAM EXPERTS shold get your heads out your ass and try Something new instead of trying to break ice on people that are trying to make it across the lake!!
F.D.R...Jr
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 | 09:05 PM
And it actually is an actual product on top of that your not asking for money...Read the letter again it never ASKED? you for money. The letter does state that YOUR IN THE MAILING BUSINESS AND PEOPLE ARE (PAYING) YOU A DOLLAR TO BE ADDED TO YOUR MAILING LIST. IT BECOMES YOUR MAILING LIST ONCE YOU MAIL OUT YOUR LETTERS WITH YOUR NAME ON IT. Another thing the people that send you the dollar sends you a slip THATS SAYS (PLEASE ADD ME TO YOUR MAILING LIST. Once again NONE of the SCAM EXPERTS have mentioned a single person prosecuted SO WHAT MAKES EVERYONE SO SCARED, BECAUSE OF SOMEONE PERSONAL VIEW OF WHY THEY DON'T TRY IT AND WHY THEY THINK IT'S ILLEGAL? OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE
That Darn Blister
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 | 12:42 PM
Why don't you step back, oh, ONE PAGE, to page 81, and read the links to court cases where people were not only prosecuted but convicted for the very thing you're advocating, Ms. F.D.R. Jr.?

The mailing list claim has been shot down repeatedly in court, yet, like a Sovereign Citizen nut, you keep trying the same thing over and over thinking that there will be a different result.

Isn't that one of the commonly referenced memes on what insanity is, among laymen?
Brainsareforthinkn'
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 | 11:21 PM
So just because a collective of people believe it to no be illegal makes it so?
Hmmm... I'm not sure that makes sense to me.
The law is pretty clear that it is not legal and so for me if I participated I would be breaking the law.
Whether someone knew about it or not would not matter, I would know and so my morals and character would slip.
This law is pretty clear(see previous entries on this thread) even if you are offering to be on a mailing list. This type of thing IS a chain letter and they are illegal.
The research has been done and that is the conclusion.
If one participates then they are breaking the law.
I for one would like to steer clear of doing that.
brainsareforthinkin'
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 | 01:39 AM
*not be illegal* sorry
Cranky Media Guy
Member
Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 | 05:02 PM
F.D.R....Jr. said:

"NONE of the SCAM EXPERTS have mentioned a single person prosecuted SO WHAT MAKES EVERYONE SO SCARED, BECAUSE OF SOMEONE PERSONAL VIEW OF WHY THEY DON'T TRY IT AND WHY THEY THINK IT'S ILLEGAL?"

As Blister pointed out, there most certainly ARE links to prosecutions of chain letter operators in this thread. Feeling stupid yet, Jr.?

"OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE"

You really ought to make sure you know what you're talking about before you chastise others.
Domski
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 | 12:32 AM
This is how I see it:

1 - The Postal Service is making all the money. The majority of the letters sent out will be thrown away, but the stamps are all paid for. The government is trying to stop something that is making them money?

2 - No human being is really scamming you. Only $7 of the investment is actually going to a human being. The rest of the money is money spent on letters and stamps and getting the list of opportunity seekers.

3 - Yes it's true, yea, you really don't have to send the $7 to the addresses on the letter, but if you want it to work for you, don't you think the average person won't care about an extra $7. I mean if you want to work for you. Don't be a ***hole.

4 - This will work if the collective people who participate are generally nice good hearted people who have money problems.

5 - It claims to be legal. It probably isn't. But who cares??! The only person who doesn't want a scam to work is someone who doesn't need to benefit from the letters. If you have to give all the money back oh well. It's definitely worth a try because you probably aren't going to get caught. And who cares about losing $150-$300 once??

6 - It sounds fun! 😊

I for one am going to try it.
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