MOH Forum: A Postal-Mail Chain Letter?

A Postal-Mail Chain Letter?

Posted By:
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Nov 14, 2004

I received this chain letter in my mailbox:

Dear Friend,
Greetings: I am a retired attorney. A few years ago a man came to me with a letter. He asked me to verify the fact that this was legal to do. I told him I would review it and get back to him. When I first red the letter my client brought me, I thought it was some "off-the-wall" idea to make money. A week and a half later we met in my office to discuss the issue. I told him the letter he originally brought me was not 100% legal. My client then asked me to later it to make it perfectly legal. I asked him to make one small change in the letter.

***
It goes on for another 2 pages about how if you send $1 to the 6 names on the list & you will make $800,000.00 in just 3 months. You pay for a list of names to send letters to. I KNOW this is a scam. I just can't figure out how I got it. It came to me at my married name (junk-mail tends to come to my maiden name), & it came to my actual house address. (My driver's license lists my PO Box & if you look me up at the DMV, the physical address is actually my prior residence...haven't had time to change it yet.) The phone & electric aren't registered in my name, they're registered to my husband. (There's not a water bill, we have a well.)

What I wanna know is: How did this come to me, with my correct name at my current physical address??? The 'person' who sent the letter is: Mr. Louis Jordan/1234 Shakespeare Avenue/Apt # 2E/Bronx, NY 10452

Also, a co-worker recently had someone slip this same letter under his door at his apartment building...Anyone hear anything about this??

Category: Scams; Replies: 1759

Comments

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hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 \| 09:10 PM Lindsy, a much more practical way to share a dollar with your neighbor is to take it to them directly.
CMG Fan	Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 \| 01:28 AM You guys, stop beating up on CMG, he's just trying to help us out!!! Obviously he's not wasting his time for 5 years, he is dedicating them to helping us be more informed! I am 100% sure that he wants nothing more than to get rid of chain letters. He is putting it out there so no one will ever be put into the danger of having chain letters shoved up our asses for 10 hours. He is making our the world a better place...for our asses. 😊 Thanks CMG!
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 \| 01:18 PM Thanks...I think.
maria	Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 \| 05:52 PM I did have a friend who did this letter, and make around $16,000/ 3 months. If you really do the letter and follow the instruction it work.
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 \| 08:37 PM Did it work for you too, Maria?
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 \| 01:17 AM Maria said: "I did have a friend who did this letter, and make around $16,000/ 3 months. "If you really do the letter and follow the instruction it work." Really, Maria? How, exactly? Please explain to us all how a fund which isn't invested or put into any kind of interest-bearing account can possibly give every participant more money than they put in originally. That's what chain letters promise to do.
robin	Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 \| 09:09 PM My goodness! whatever will be will be the futures not ours you see casara casara I think things will work if there is faith! Also I think its wonderful how people around the world can give each other a buck even if it dont work out! Because it kind of boils down to poor people or rich all participating a buck! And not forgetting to add one peice of paper asking please add me to your mailing list! I know illegal! But to me it could be a positive,,,,,if it was to work out! Which Im not sure,,,,I will be back to let yas know,,,,God Bless
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 \| 12:58 AM Robin said: "I think things will work if there is faith!" Including mathematically-impossible scams like chain letters? "Also I think its wonderful how people around the world can give each other a buck even if it dont work out!" But the point of a chain letter is NOT to give someone else money but to MAKE money for yourself. Ultimately, it doesn't work but that IS the reason people participate. "Because it kind of boils down to poor people or rich all participating a buck!" No, as I said, the point is supposed to be to come out ahead. "And not forgetting to add one peice of paper asking please add me to your mailing list! I know illegal!" Saying "Add me to your mailing list" does NOT magically make a chain letter legal, as has been explained over and over in this thread.
robin	Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 \| 08:23 AM I respect your opinion. Evreyone has one. I dont think its making just money for themselves thats why there is 6 names on the list! I would have to pay 6 of those people a doller I would pay for my service and so will each person like myself who had to give a doller they would be part of the list to receive the dollers also! Now my thought is Oprah Wimfrey should get in trouble for misleading the world on tv of scandlous get rich schemes! How could the news and 20/20 allow her to do that shame on her regarding the illegal side of the letter!
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 \| 01:51 PM Robin, this isn't a matter of "opinion." If you take some time to read the earlier pages of this thread, you'll see careful explanations of why chain letters DO NOT work and are illegal. You'll see where the U.S. Postal Service is quoted as saying so. That is NOT "opinion," it's FACT. "Now my thought is Oprah Wimfrey should get in trouble for misleading the world on tv of scandlous get rich schemes! How could the news and 20/20 allow her to do that shame on her regarding the illegal side of the letter!" OK, what are you referring to? I know there have been rumors circulating for years about Oprah allegedly promoting various things on her show, but those are urban legends and not true. Oprah has never endorsed a chain letter on her show.
sara	Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 \| 05:00 PM I just read the entire thread here, and I must make one observation. Laws are made by humans. Humans are fallible. Therefore, laws can also be fallible. It was once against the law for women to vote. That law was repealed because it was obviously a bad one. I think this law about chain letters and "postal gambling" should be repealed. Gambling is legal in many places, and although some lose, some also win. It's up to the individual to decide if he wants to put down his dollar to take that gamble. If I wanted to take a gamble on this scheme, and I lost, too bad for me. I don't need the federal government protecting me from risk. I agree that they probably made it illegal because it is hard to tax this money like you can with traditional gambling and lottery winnings. This law is bogus, and until enough of us stand up to it, it will stand. Too bad we're all too scared to try.
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 \| 05:49 PM Sara said: "I just read the entire thread here, and I must make one observation. Laws are made by humans. Humans are fallible. Therefore, laws can also be fallible. It was once against the law for women to vote. That law was repealed because it was obviously a bad one." Irrelevant. The law against women voting was revoked because it was unconstitutional. It was also, arguably, immoral. Neither of those is an issue with laws against chain letters and other scams. "I think this law about chain letters and 'postal gambling' should be repealed. Gambling is legal in many places, and although some lose, some also win. It's up to the individual to decide if he wants to put down his dollar to take that gamble." You claim to have read this thread, yet you missed the point, which has been made several times, that chain letters are NOT "gambling." In legitimate gambling, no claim is made that everyone can or will come out ahead and the true odds are available to anyone who wants them. Chain letters routinely claim that all participants can come out ahead, a claim which is mathematically impossible. In other words, chain letters and other scams are based on a LIE. That is why they are illegal. "I agree that they probably made it illegal because it is hard to tax this money like you can with traditional gambling and lottery winnings. This law is bogus, and until enough of us stand up to it, it will stand. Too bad we're all too scared to try." So, your bold stand is in favor of a mathematically impossible scam based on a lie which rips off people? Any other crimes you want to defend?
Sara	Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 \| 08:12 PM Member said "Chain letters routinely claim that all participants can come out ahead, a claim which is mathematically impossible. In other words, chain letters and other scams are based on a LIE. That is why they are illegal." So are you saying that if I simply modify my letter to state that you could "possibly" get back a lot of money from this deal, it would be completely legal? And as for the math, it would be very possible and quite likely that you would at least get back the amount of money you put into it, if not more than that. Several posters have already testified to the money they have made off of this scheme. Any idiot can figure out that there is a possibility that nobody will respond to the letter and they will lose their investment. So how can you claim that this person has been "ripped off." They went into it with their eyes wide open. My credit card company also promised me a fixed rate, but they recently raised my rate even though I have never been late on any payment. So did the credit card company lie in order to scam me. You bet they did! So why can credit card companies get away with it, but Joe Shmoe can't? And for your information, the whole foundation for the USPS being able to criminalize this endeavor is that it is considered gambling, not because it is "based on a lie." The truth is, even if I were to be completely honest and change the letter to state "returns are not guaranteed," it would still be illegal, because I am still technically gambling. So I guess the proper discussion here should be one of whether or not the federal government should be able to criminalize gambling. And as for your comment about me making a bold stand for criminals, I have no problem standing up for the rights of the individual to give his money to whomever he wants, for whatever reason he wants. The person who feels he has been scammed can always hire an attorney and sue for his money back in a civil court. This should be a civil matter, not a criminal one. Unlike Madoff and his Ponzi scheme, the individuals passing on this chain letter are not proclaiming to invest the dollars they are given and then not doing what they say. If I send six people $1, I understand fully that the people receiving it will keep it for themselves, and I may or may not convince others to return the favor after forwarding the letter. This is not a scam. Taking a risk, yes, but not a scam.
shanin patterson	Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 \| 01:38 PM i think these people that's sending these scams should be put under the jail for fooling people to send their money to these fake addresses i think it should be away if you send your money and you never receive anything you should be able to sue them for every penny they own.
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 \| 01:55 PM Sara said: "So are you saying that if I simply modify my letter to state that you could "possibly" get back a lot of money from this deal, it would be completely legal?" I am not a lawyer, but I believe that your scheme would still be illegal. "And as for the math, it would be very possible and quite likely that you would at least get back the amount of money you put into it, if not more than that." Again, while you claim to have read the entire thread, you seem to have missed the many times where the reason the math behind chain letters doesn't work has been explained. It is simply NOT possible for everyone to come out ahead. "Several posters have already testified to the money they have made off of this scheme." And as we know, it is physically impossible to lie on the Internet. "Any idiot can figure out that there is a possibility that nobody will respond to the letter and they will lose their investment." Yes and any idiot should also be able to figure out that, no matter how many people participate in a chain letter, it is simply NOT POSSIBLE for everyone to come out ahead. "My credit card company also promised me a fixed rate, but they recently raised my rate even though I have never been late on any payment. So did the credit card company lie in order to scam me. You bet they did! So why can credit card companies get away with it, but Joe Shmoe can't?" So, your argument is that since the "big guys" rip people off, the "little guys" should be able to also. Fascinating. As any idiot should be able to figure out, two wrongs don't make a right. "And for your information, the whole foundation for the USPS being able to criminalize this endeavor is that it is considered gambling, not because it is 'based on a lie.'" While it's true that gambling via the mail is illegal, chain letters are NOT gambling in the usual sense. They routinely make claims like, "if everyone is honest, we can all come out ahead." That, as previously stated, is impossible mathematically. No legitimate gambling operation makes such a claim. "The person who feels he has been scammed can always hire an attorney and sue for his money back in a civil court." While the amount of money which can be made in a chain letter or other similar scam can be large, the INDIVIDUAL "investment" is usually small. Do you really think that people are going to hire an attorney to recover six dollars? Do you know any attorneys who would take such a case? "Unlike Madoff and his Ponzi scheme, the individuals passing on this chain letter are not proclaiming to invest the dollars they are given and then not doing what they say." No, but they ARE lying when they make claims like "If everyone is honest, we can all come out ahead." In that sense, chain letters ARE a scam. Good luck finding the Libertarian Paradise you seek.
Sara	Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 \| 05:12 PM Listen, I don't doubt that the first person who started this scheme was working to defraud the public, placing 6 fictitious names on the list, all of whom are sent money which end up in his own greedy and deceptive pockets. However, due to the nature of the scheme, as soon as this letter is out of his hands, real people begin adding their names to the bottom of the list, and after it has changed hands six times, the original scammer's name is now bumped off the list entirely and he will stop receiving money (at least until he starts a new letter). But what is left on the list are the names of legitimate people who are just trying to make a buck. I don't see why the government should prosecute these people. They are just forwarding letters and sending dollars to other people who want to make money just like them. I have never taken part in a scheme like this, but if I did, I would not waste my time being angry at the original guy who made more money off of the deal than I probably will. I would just be happy to get whatever I could out of it. And I checked with a statistician; he confirmed that it was indeed mathmatically possible for this scheme to succeed, IF it were not illegal. The reason you could never get to position six on the list and get the huge number of responses the letter predicts is because many people who would take part (honest people) do not take part because they don't want to risk prosecution. Chain letters are successful, as my aunt who got 3,156 postcards after sending out three was able to prove. Of course, her chain was legal because the government doesn't care about chain letters asking for postcards to exchange hands, just dollars (which they can't trace and tax).
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 \| 12:32 AM Sara said: "Listen, I don't doubt that the first person who started this scheme was working to defraud the public, placing 6 fictitious names on the list, all of whom are sent money which end up in his own greedy and deceptive pockets. However, due to the nature of the scheme, as soon as this letter is out of his hands, real people begin adding their names to the bottom of the list, and after it has changed hands six times, the original scammer's name is now bumped off the list entirely and he will stop receiving money (at least until he starts a new letter)." There's really no way to know who started a chain letter nor if that person is still in the chain by the time you receive it. "And I checked with a statistician; he confirmed that it was indeed mathmatically possible for this scheme to succeed, IF it were not illegal." In that case, you spoke to a bad statistician. a chain letter claims to be able to make every participant come out ahead. That is simply NOT possible, as has been carefully explained many times in this thread. The money put into a chain letter is NOT invested or used in any profit-making way. Where then would the extra money required to provide a profit for all participants come from? Yes, it IS possible for an individual to come out ahead, but that's not what chain letters claim to be able to achieve. Two plus two CANNOT be made to equal five. As for your aunt, you have no way of knowing what results OTHER participants in the chain got. For all you know, she was the ONLY person who came out "ahead." If you asked another participant who got nothing, do you think THEY would feel the chain "worked?"
wheatly	Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 \| 01:37 PM I tried this specific letter 2 months ago. I am a broke graduate student, I wanted to believe so bad that it would work, i still want to believe. I really felt good about the people helping people idea. And just thought it would be awesome to not need to take out another student loan next semester. But unfortunately with the exception of 5 returned or undeliverable letters, I have only received 2 responses in the mail (totaling a whopping $2). That leaves me over $100 dollars in the hole (again money i didn't have to blow in the 1st place). And to those 2 people i am so sorry if i have unknowingly invited you to waist your money or your time. I never meant to anything illegal, and i never meant to pull anything over on anyone. I will write this forum if my financial status changes at all as a result of this letter, but i am giving up hope for it. I understand why people visit this website, I imagine you are in a similar situation as me, and you have either tried this program or are considering it. I hope this is helpful to you. And good luck in all your endeavors.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 \| 01:44 PM Hi, Wheatly. As you may have figured out by now, the whole "people helping people" thing is designed to get you past any feelings of guilt you might have over being greedy. (I'm not trying to imply that YOU were necessarily being greedy. It's just a psychological trick scammers use to lure people in.) I think we can all understand your desire to get your hands on some money, especially in this lousy economy. I'm sorry you lost money on this thing. Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm sure we all hope things turn around for you soon.
h-townmommy	Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 \| 10:43 PM I sent 200 letters off May 14. Received my 1st dollar May 22. Wish me luck. My husband has tried it in the past, 4 years ago before we met, and says he made $700. So I sent 200 letters, and tomorrow I will call dataline and get my 50% discount for 500 more labels. I plan on sending off 10-15 per day to keep the money flowing. I will let you guys know how it is going. And to the media freak, I have passed over all your post for 3 hours now, and have no interest in what you have to say. So don't waiste your time, cause I already made up my mind that I will not get into this childish feud with you. YOU ARE BEING IGNORED BY MANY!!! NOONE HAS SAID THEY HAVE GOTTEN ARRESTED YET, SO I AM WITH THE MAJORITY!!!! 😉
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 \| 01:10 AM h-townmommy said: "And to the media freak, I have passed over all your post for 3 hours now, and have no interest in what you have to say. So don't waiste your time, cause I already made up my mind that I will not get into this childish feud with you." Mommy, you are an asshole. Despite the fact that I and others have said MANY times that it's EXTREMELY unlikely that an individual would get arrested for participating in a chain letter, you've still managed to think that I've said you will. Despite your evident ignorance, in the back of your mind, you DO know that chain letters are a scam. In your selfish arrogance, however, you think that YOU will not be taken. It's the OTHERS who are suckers. Scam artists thrive on arrogant jerks like you. All I've done over the course of this thread is explain the simple facts about chain letters, using language that even a simpleton like you can understand. You don't LIKE the facts, however, because they tell you something you don't want to hear so you act as if I'm doing something bad to you. Does the expression "blaming the messenger" mean anything to you? You want to believe that 2+2 can equal 5 so badly that anyone who shows you that it can't is your enemy. Sorry to burst your bubble, Cretin. "YOU ARE BEING IGNORED BY MANY!!! NOONE HAS SAID THEY HAVE GOTTEN ARRESTED YET, SO I AM WITH THE MAJORITY!!!!" Well, if we've learned anything from the Internet, it's that anything typed in all capital letters MUST be the truth. Could you please supply us with the names of some of the masses who are "ignoring" me? Or should I just go with my instinct and conclude that you're pulling this nonsense out of your ass? Here's a clue for you, Tard Girl: even if we assume that you're right about the "majority" (of what?) ignoring what I say here, the fact is that TRUTH is not determined by consensus. If every human being on Planet Earth but me thought that chain letters were legal and could make every participant come out ahead, I would still be right and they would still be wrong. I realize that you're not part of the "reality-based community," but that's your problem, not mine. By the way, Jackass, if you REALLY don't want to get into a "childish feud" with someone, it's really not a good idea to start off your first post by insulting them. I sincerely hope that you are not really a mother. If you DO, would you please have your tubes tied at your earliest convenience? Society doesn't need even more children raised by illiterate, dysfunctional idiots.
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 \| 01:12 AM That first sentence of the last paragraph should read, "I sincerely hope that you don't have children."
h-townmommy	Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 \| 10:29 AM I thought I would get a responze. I am not, nor have I been reading any of your replies. I have been reading other replies about you, and I agree. GET A LIFE. If anyone else has anything to say, then yes I will read!!!! I will be keeping everyone posted about my mail order business. And if I only make a couple of dollars, I will not be mad!!! 😛 I also have so much pitty on a wife to be with that spanky freak. He really gives me the chills. Probably a short fat man, who daydreams all day long about fondeling little children. I for one get the willies :ahhh: And I win cause unlike me, he will read this. You are probably a closet case homosexual. That is why you are always online, and not with the misses. Whatever it is, there is most definately something wrong... 😡
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 \| 11:59 AM I take it there are no rules about civility in this forum...
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 \| 01:35 PM h-townmommy said: "I thought I would get a responze. I am not, nor have I been reading any of your replies." If you haven't been reading anything I post, then how did you know that I had replied to you? For that matter, if you haven't read anything I've posted to this thread, what's your problem with me? After all, you'd have no way of knowing what I've said and therefore would have nothing to complain about. "And I win cause unlike me, he will read this." What does that sentence mean? You didn't read your own post? As usual, stupid people who have no FACTS to back up their opinions engage in ad hominem attack. Call me all the names you want, it won't change the simple FACTS which you seem unable to comprehend. Of course, since you claim to not read anything I post here, you'll never see this. What a silly person you are.
h-townmommy	Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 \| 04:52 PM I do not think there are any rules on here. I just stopped reading that crazy guys post after the 2nd page. I do not, and will not read his replies to me, or anyone else. It was obvious to me at the begining that he is crazy. I got on here to hear about other peoples experiences about the chain letter. I sent it out to 200 people, and I just ordered 500 more addresses, because I got a discount. So I have never tried it before myself, but hubby has in the past. He made $700, so $500 in profit. So after all the reading in this forum, it is questionably legal, and no body has ever gotten arrested for this. So I said why not? I do play about $50 per week on lotto, so I just used my throw away money, and did this. Have you tried it yet? I would like to hear from people who have infact tried this, please let me know what happened.
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 \| 01:18 AM h-townmommy said: "I just stopped reading that crazy guys post after the 2nd page. I do not, and will not read his replies to me, or anyone else. It was obvious to me at the begining that he is crazy." Naturally, since you're not very interested in FACTS, you don't explain why you think I'm "crazy" or supply any evidence of such. I'll repeat what I said earlier: You don't like the FACTS I supply here, so you feel you have to DENY them. You're not able to do that using logic or facts, of course, so you resort to ad hominem attack. Pathetic. "I got on here to hear about other peoples experiences about the chain letter. I sent it out to 200 people, and I just ordered 500 more addresses, because I got a discount. So I have never tried it before myself, but hubby has in the past. He made $700, so $500 in profit." "So after all the reading in this forum, it is questionably legal, and no body has ever gotten arrested for this. So I said why not?" Chain letters are not "questionably legal" as you would have seen if you had REALLY read the thread as you claim to have. The exact part of the U.S. Postal Service's website in which it is explained that chain letters are ILLEGAL has been posted here several times. That, of course, doesn't conform to what you want to believe, so you choose to ignore it. By the way, many if not most bank robbers are never caught, so why don't you just go into that line of work? After all, all you seem to care about is getting caught, not the fact that chain letters are illegal or that they rip people off. "I do play about $50 per week on lotto, so I just used my throw away money, and did this." Has it ever occurred to you that spending $50 per week on lotteries might be an indication that you are a gambling addict? You don't appear to have much education, so my guess is that $50/week is money you can't really afford to spend on gambling and scams. "I would like to hear from people who have infact tried this, please let me know what happened." People HAVE talked about their experiences with chain letters, yet another fact you would know if you had REALLY read this thread instead of wasting your time insulting me. I'm sure it's never occurred to you that if lots of people were making lots of money via chain letters, it would be impossible for that to stay a secret. It would be written about in magazines and newspapers. The participants could remain anonymous while the reporters wrote about the "underground phenomenon" of chain letters. It would be a natural story in a time of financial difficulty. The fact that you AREN'T seeing those stories should tell you that people AREN'T getting rich via this scam. I've said on more than one occasion that it isn't necessary to believe one word of what I say here. You can simply go to any decent-sized library and read one of the many books on the subjects of scams and frauds. If you did, you'd see that a lot of those books have chapters devoted to chain letters and why they CANNOT make every participant come out ahead. You want to believe in fairy tales, however, so none of these facts will sway your thinking, I know.
That Darn Blister	Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 \| 11:24 AM Yet another logical fallacy, I see. Perhaps this "mommy" in Houston needs to go back to school to refresh her memory regarding logic, fallacies, and the reasons why one should not lie to the authorities. Particularly seeing that, as she is a legal adult now, the penalties are considerably worse than a spanking or being grounded for a week. You claim no one has been arrested. Let me provide links to cases where people were not only arrested, but convicted for the same thing that you and your husband are doing: http://www.usps.com/judicial/1978deci/6-72.htm http://www.usps.com/judicial/1982deci/14-54.htm http://www.ftc.gov/os/2002/02/boivinjmnt.pdf And, seeing as you are in Houston, read this case as well to see some of the laws your state has against such programs: http://www.14thcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=83666 While Mr. Dockstader was not running a chain letter as you are, the same laws prohibiting pyramid promotional schemes that tripped him up do apply to chain letters, and thus, to you.
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 \| 01:46 PM Oh, you and your silly "facts" and "laws," Blister. You better be careful or Mommy will say you're short, fat and molest children.
Sara	Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 \| 06:53 PM Hello, again. Let me start off by saying that I still think it's rediculous that the Feds have criminalized this scheme, no matter that it is a scam and people lose their money. If they want to gamble on it, they deserve to lose their money. That said, I must make a comment to Houston Mommy. If you will go back and read my earlier posts, you will see that I argued in favor of this scheme without stooping to petty insults against Media Guy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some opinions should not be voiced in a public forum. You managed to make me ashamed to be (kind of) on your side of the argument.
Catpiss Guy	Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 \| 07:05 PM Sara, by that reasoning, you're also arguing that Nigerian 419 scams should be legal, because they are "gambling", and like chain letters, they make bald-faced lies about the actual finances involved. What's next, Joe Izuzu becomes the nation's mascot? All lies, all the time?
h-townmommy	Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 \| 07:21 PM Well, sorry if you are ashamed to be kinda on my side. I just got on here to find out how others came out on this deal. And if you had read 72 pages as well as I, you should understand. I came on here to tell all that I did in fact send 200 letters, and just really didn't want 4 pages of people telling me its illegal after I had already sent them. I believe in positive thinking, and having faith. The only reason why it may not work this time, is because of the economy. So I am really interested in hearing from people who have done this recently. So if I hurt some feelings, then so sorry. My intention is to just to hear from positive people. I just want to hear actual and true facts from people who actually did this. So you argued in favor of this, did you do any good? It has only been 2 weeks since I mailed those letters, so I don't know yet. But I will be more than happy to report to you guys about every dollar that comes in.
h-townmommy	Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 \| 07:27 PM Nevermind, I just read back. Well I hope to recieve half as many dollars as your aunt did post cards!!!
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 \| 07:33 PM So if I hurt some feelings, then so sorry. My intention is to just to hear from positive people. If you believe in positive thinking, and you want to only hear the positive spin of things, don't you think it would be beneficial to be a little nicer yourself?
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 \| 01:03 AM h-townmommy said: "I came on here to tell all that I did in fact send 200 letters, and just really didn't want 4 pages of people telling me its illegal after I had already sent them." As I've been saying, you aren't really interested in FACTS. "I believe in positive thinking, and having faith. The only reason why it may not work this time, is because of the economy." Absolute nonsense. If you've really read the thread, you've seen very careful explanations of why the math involved in chain letters CANNOT work. "Positive thinking" has NOTHING to do with it. Yes, a given individual CAN come out ahead, but for that to happen, other people have to lose their money. For example, if you got seven times your money back (a BIG "if"), that return represents your initial "investment" plus the money six other people put into the "pool." Do you think that any of those six people would consider the experiment a success? In legal gambling, no representation that everyone can win is made. Positive thinking may help in your personal life but it CAN'T change simple math. It also cannot magically make the illegal legal.
h-townmommy	Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 \| 07:12 PM Well looks like I am the hated one this week!! I came on here to read about the win or lose of this chain letter. So again, if anyone has anything to say about the chain letter, then I would like to hear about it. This forum seems to be full of people who have never, and would never try it. I might lose my money, so I will be honest 100% about what I win or lose. If I lose and that helps the next person save his money, then great. And if mom of hcmomof4 came on here to find out about this letter, I will let her know. I am not here to get every sentence pulled apart, picked at, and tortured. But if you wanna, GO AHEAD!!! My life will not end because someone on the internet don't like me. Someone who clearly has gotten their point across 5000 times. Today has been 2 weeks since I have sent the letters off, and I have gotten $1 so far.
h-townmommy	Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 \| 07:39 PM And yes I should be nicer. You are right momof4. I do apologise. Because I do realize I was wrong.
Catpiss Guy	Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 \| 11:02 PM If you've received $1, that's actually well ahead of most people's real results. Have some reading material from folks who did try it: http://karenliddell.etee2k.net/ http://demo.capris.com/Makemoremoney/investigate.cfm http://www.ftc.gov/os/2002/02/vajmnt.pdf And the research from a college student who did his thesis paper about these letters: http://www.silcom.com/~barnowl/chain-letter/bibliography.htm
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 \| 01:13 AM h-townmommy said: "My life will not end because someone on the internet don't like me. Someone who clearly has gotten their point across 5000 times." I assume that's directed at me. I've explained this before but I'll repeat it. The reason I make many of the same points over and over is that new people join this thread all the time and many, if not most, of them don't have the time to read the whole thing. This can be demonstrated by the fact that, even though the salient points have been made and proven many times, people STILL come in here and make the same false statements about chain letters. This is not like a work of fiction where it would be bad form to make the same points about the characters over and over. The information is repeated for the benefit of those who join us "in progress." "I am not here to get every sentence pulled apart, picked at, and tortured. But if you wanna, GO AHEAD!!! My life will not end because someone on the internet don't like me." You have that a little bit backwards. Your very first posting was nasty to me, without provocation. Putting that aside, it seems that you may have had second thoughts about that behavior, so I hope we can move on from here.
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 \| 01:14 AM Nice work, Catpiss Guy. Thanks for the links.
dick cares	Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 \| 01:03 PM yea yea yea it's illegal, but this is what's real: It is not mathematically impossible to work for any individual. It is obviously impossible for it to work for every person in the country/world, or even every person who tries it as it is based on an infinite supply of resources (almost like our entire economic system.) This is why it's so attractive to some. Most anybody can see these facts, of the possibility for it to work for an individual, and (I sincerely hope) anybody can see why it can't work for everybody. Thus it is a gamble. Psychologically, a person knowingly participating in this gambling gets a reward of hope, and positive anticipation. Also, knowingly participating in an illegal action which has a potential payoff is another one of these psychological turn-ons (for some, obviously not for the pious obediant MR. Cranky.) The first thing I thought when I read this letter was, hey, I could just replace these names with mine on the bottom, and friends or family for the rest. Then I quickly discarded that idea as I would not want my family or friends knowing I had even considered participating. Then I thought how it must not work, since this obvious flaw I just realized would be taken advantage (or at least considered) by most who read it. But, then I realized that not playing by the letter's rules would be self-defeating. Pointless, in the larger picture. If I did change the names, why would anyone after me who is supposed to send me money not do the same. And it's the hope that this realization occurs to everybody who participates that makes me think it is possible if not probable. It is almost inspiring in a way, to do the 'right' thing. Of course, I still know the math, ultimately people will play that cannot win, someone will lose and possibly be hurt for it (aka bad karma.) But back to the psychology, the combination of these natural mental turn-ons, and the illusion of the inspiration to the 'right thing' and actually help the people on the list before you, I believe it is a good combination to get people to participate. I think if somebody got lucky with the list they sent the letter to, and got lucky with those people's lists, somebody could make good money from minimal inputs with this. As for me, I did not participate, but am fascinated at the response these things have had. who cares? dick cares who knows? dick knows
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 \| 02:00 PM dick cares said: "Also, knowingly participating in an illegal action which has a potential payoff is another one of these psychological turn-ons (for some, obviously not for the pious obediant MR. Cranky.)" You assume too much, Grasshopper. It isn't "piety" that makes me participate in this thread. Part of it is that I know in difficult financial times, people are attracted to scams like chain letters. Part of it is that I'm amazed that some people can't see the obvious fact that it simply isn't mathematically possible for everyone to come out ahead. "Most anybody can see these facts, of the possibility for it to work for an individual, and (I sincerely hope) anybody can see why it can't work for everybody." You'd think so, but if you go through this thread, you'll see people who argue rather vociferously that it CAN work for everyone. I suspect that some of them are trying to talk themselves into the idea that they aren't taking money from others. They don't want to see themselves as "bad" so they buy into the whole "people helping people" nonsense. "But back to the psychology, the combination of these natural mental turn-ons, and the illusion of the inspiration to the 'right thing' and actually help the people on the list before you, I believe it is a good combination to get people to participate." Exactly. That's how scams work. "The first thing I thought when I read this letter was, hey, I could just replace these names with mine on the bottom, and friends or family for the rest." That is, of course, one of the obvious problems with a chain letter. You have no way of knowing if that's the situation, in which case, you aren't going to see Dime One out of it.
h-townmommy	Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 \| 04:41 PM Well then if I do not receive even one more dollar, then maybe it will help someone else. I have always been honest, and I can't stand a lie. So I knew that the guy said he got 400k, that was not true. So it is hard to know who to believe. But I will be 100% honest. That is what this forum is about. Someone has to try, to win or lose for others to know. So I am the guinie pig.
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 \| 06:01 PM Unfortunately, h-townmommy, you being a guinea pig can cause others to lose money, by believing what they read in the letter. And given that it's been mathematically shown to not work, you are helping to potentially damage people who can't afford to take the hit.
h-townmommy	Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 \| 07:49 PM I had already gotten a few of these letters, and sis not participate. So this time I did. I am sure if someone decides to participate in the letter that I sent, it is probably not their first one, as it was not mine. People have the right to choose to spend their money. If they cannot afford this then they simply should not participate. Noone likes to just throw their money away. But I should hope that the $200 would not make someone homeless. Have you been feeling that way, or was it this forum that makes you feel like I am a big bad monster. I mean, did you not get on this forum cause you were curious yourself?
h-townmommy	Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 \| 07:54 PM And no I did not move any of the names off the list, and add my own family. Those people spent their money getting a list, and stamps, and copies. I do believe in karma.
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 \| 10:21 PM h-mommy, I can to this forum by way of a different thread, but I've been a skeptic since birth. And I didn't say anything about you being a big bad monster. I tried to point out, in a fairly non-confrontational way, that chain letters are a scam, and people can get hurt by them, as with any other scam. I don't believe in karma, either, sorry.
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 \| 10:21 PM DAMMIT!!!! *I CAME to this forum...
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 \| 01:38 AM h-townmommy said: "People have the right to choose to spend their money. If they cannot afford this then they simply should not participate." You still don't get the whole "illegal" thing, do you? "Noone likes to just throw their money away. But I should hope that the $200 would not make someone homeless." Straw man argument. No one ever said that wasting $200 would make someone homeless. Would you not agree, though, that with the economy as lousy as it is currently, many people can't afford to lose hundreds of dollars?
h-townmommy	Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 \| 03:38 PM I am a skeptic also. I play the lotto knowing that I will most likely NEVER win. But a few people do. And yes, I do have the worst luck of all. But it is my choice, isn't it? I am well over 18. I guess I would hope that if someone really doesn't have the money, then they simply will not play.
h-townmommy	Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 \| 03:51 PM And I do definately believe in karma. I guess that is why I have a good life!!! I give to the homeless, and always try to help out where I can. Even if its not karma, I do sleep very well at night. I will not lose sleep over a chain letter that 99% will throw away!!!!!!!!
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 \| 07:17 PM h-townmommy said: "I am a skeptic also. I play the lotto knowing that I will most likely NEVER win. But a few people do." Lotto, unlike chain letters, is LEGAL, in part because the odds are disclosed. Legal lotteries also do not pretend that everyone can win. "I guess I would hope that if someone really doesn't have the money, then they simply will not play." You can hope that, but we know that many people who can't afford to lose their money DO participate in illegal scams like chain letters. They might not do that, though, if they had the facts, which is why this thread exists.
That Darn Blister	Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 \| 09:04 PM So you spend your $6, gambling that you won't be the one slapped with 30 years in prison for fraud, and/or a fine of up to a million dollars for fraud affecting your bank? And even if you don't get criminal charges on your record, think of the social damage you've done to your good name in the eyes of the neighbors and your friends & family when they find out what a stupid thing you did. No amount of money can repair that damage.
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 \| 01:11 AM But none of those things can possibly happen to you if you are a positive thinker, Blister. 'Cause the Universe will rearrange itself for you if you want it to. Yup, that's how it works, all right.
hcmomof4 in So. Cal. Member	Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 \| 01:05 PM In fairness, CMG, h-townmommy did not claim the Universe would rearrange just because one wants it to. Karma does involve actual effort on the part of the person who is looking to benefit from it. Of course, (and this is merely anecdotal) my experience is that it's the EFFORT that causes the change, not karma....
Will	Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 \| 07:08 PM I know that sending chain letters is illegal, but it is clear to me that the person making money in this deal is the guy who you send $75 to get a list of names to mail more letters to. Is it illegal to be the guy selling the list of names?
Cranky Media Guy	Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 \| 01:13 AM Will said: "I know that sending chain letters is illegal, but it is clear to me that the person making money in this deal is the guy who you send $75 to get a list of names to mail more letters to. Is it illegal to be the guy selling the list of names?" Under normal circumstances, no, it's not illegal to sell lists of names. There are several companies that make a lot of money by doing exactly that. It may get you into trouble if you were to admit that you intended your lists to be used in a chain letter, but since I'm not a lawyer, don't quote me on that.
lstewart1126 Member	Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 \| 03:20 PM hello everyone! i have read about 10 of the pages and i actually just made this name to talk to you cranky 😊. Cuz let me tell ya you crack me up i only kept reading to see what you were gonna say next. O ya i always knew what you were gonna say next because all you did was copy and paste you message after someone else talked. But for some reason i just kept reading anyways. I mean this is a big chunnk of your life. Some people spend their time reading or playing sports you know having fun. Others give to people and try to make their lives better, but nope not you. You torture everyone on this forum with your cussing and everything else. I was actually not going to send out any of my letters, but i am going to now. You talked me into it. I think that everyone should send it out. Maybe this would work a little better if you wouldnt talk everyone out of it. Have you ever thought about that. And paying six bucks isnt me losing a whole lot of money and i will gladly pay six dollars to help someone to reach their dream. The minute you stopped dreaming cranky is the minute you probably lost your girlfriend because of your masturbation to this website. Haha i crack myself up.
Cranky Media Guy Member	Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 \| 07:18 PM lstewart1126 said: "I was actually not going to send out any of my letters, but i am going to now. You talked me into it." How stupid. I guess you think you're going to "show" me something. You've certainly showed me (and everyone else here) that you're not very intelligent. "Maybe this would work a little better if you wouldnt talk everyone out of it. Have you ever thought about that." Actually, NO, I haven't thought about that--because it's stupid. "The minute you stopped dreaming cranky is the minute you probably lost your girlfriend because of your masturbation to this website. Haha i crack myself up." Unfortunately for people like you, "dreaming" doesn't change the fundamental mathematical problem with chain letters. Yes, I'm aware that Oprah tells you that wishing for things will magically make the universe give it to you, but that isn't how things work. Since you claim to have read this thread, you MUST have seen where I've posted (repeatedly) the section of the U.S. Postal Service's website where it is explained why chain letters are illegal and don't work. Facts, of course, are unimportant to someone like you who would rather throw around irrelevant and inaccurate insults, though. It's MUCH more fun to think that I'm a "dream stealer" than to consider the actual FACTS involved. After seeing your level of (il)literacy, I don't find that surprising. As far as "help[ing] someone to reach their dream," the only person you're helping is the con artist who runs the chain letter. If chain letters really worked as claimed, wouldn't we be reading about people who were in dire financial straits but who pulled out of them via one? Wouldn't that be a perfect story for newspapers and magazines to run in these difficult times? Wouldn't we be reading about people who set up chain letter businesses to help others? I haven't seen any of those stories, have you?
lstewart1126 Member	Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 \| 08:45 AM Look man im not saying anyone is going to get rich sending out letters. No money is easy money. We all know that. But you just a miserable person and you know what they say; misery loves company. You probably dont know what that means so i will explain it to you. It means since your miserable you try to make everyone else around you miserable. You know maybe thats a good thing. You making everybody miserable that is. I mean hey the more miserable everybody is the more miserable the world will be. O ya one thing i forgot the world already is. But you know what makes me the most mad about this, is i just found out that my whole family is a bunch of criminals. Yeah i graduated from high school a couple of weeks ago. I sent out invites to my grad party, but most of my family couldnt come. So what they did was send me a card with 20 or 50 bucks in it, which i just found out is illegal. They are now 20 bucks poorer and im 1000 richer. I am considering turning them into the police. I just cant believe my family would want to make my life better like that. But hey cranky the minute people like you grow up is the minute this world gets better. You might think stealing dreams isnt illegal, but according to the bible stealing anything is illigal. So that puts you in the same boat. Whats your address again? You need to get sent away. Its for all of us man, nothing personal.
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Note: This thread is located in the Old Forum of the Museum of Hoaxes.