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Ozymandias
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Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 | 10:04 AM
It sounds stupid, expensive and nonsensicle. Also, it sounds slightly glurgy. So it most likely is false.'
And I know I misspelled a word. It's 903 AM, so... |
Greg
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 | 05:30 AM
NOT A SCAM:
The plastic bottle top scam is NOT a scam! I have been collecting bottle tops for 3 months now, and even watched while the plastic was melted down at our local recycling centre, for the young boy who gets the wheelchair!!!
He has Cerebral Palsy, and he HAS now got a wheelchair after collectin his own body weight!!! |
Brian
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 | 05:20 AM
I find it difficult to believe that it is not a scam. Wasteonline says "At present we are not aware of any group that will accept plastic bottle tops either for cash, or as a means of donating a wheelchair or any other piece of accessibility equipment" - http://www.wasteonline.org.uk/resources/InformationSheets/Plastics.htm and the World Packaging Organisation says that "In France this summer, UK holidaymakers with an environmentally aware attitude will have noted that every type of container has its own disposal point at each |
Brian
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 | 05:48 AM
I've done a bit more searching. There is an interesting publication about setting up a waste plastic recycling business available from The Scottish Agricultural College http://www1.sac.ac.uk/info/External/Publications/MiscellaneousReports.asp
It gives the price you'd expect get for scrap plastic at around |
Sarah
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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 | 02:50 PM
This is not a scam....I am also collecting plastic bottle tops for my husbands work colleague to enable her son to get a wheel chair. |
Brian
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 | 09:42 AM
OK. When he gets it, post the website of the local newspaper (surely they'll want to report it) so that we can see the article about it. Maybe, in the meantime, you'd like to say who's so generously providing the wheelchair? |
Brian
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 | 10:45 AM
I only ask this because even a basic wheelchair costs about |
Megan
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 | 07:54 AM
We are collecting milk bottle tops in North Devon and are extremely keen to find out whether it is a hoax. I think it is a boy in Launceston. This is driving me crazy 'cause I need to know whether to continue collecting - please help! |
The Curator
in San Diego
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 | 09:34 AM
Who's going to pay you for collecting these bottle tops? Who's sponsoring it? |
Megan
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 | 11:22 AM
No one is paying us to collect them, it is for charity. I'm not sure who is sponsoring it. I have very little information. As usual with these things it has been passed from one person to another to but I am keen to gather any facts anyone may have. |
The Curator
in San Diego
Member
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 | 02:16 PM
The only way to confirm if these things are for real is to know who's sponsoring the campaign, and then check with them that they REALLY ARE sponsoring it. |
Brian
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Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 04:12 AM
Of course, this site http://www.shartwell.freeserve.co.uk/humor-site/walkers-hoax.htm is the one which pops up at the top of the list when you Google the subject.
Just scroll down to 'Bottle tops for wheelchairs' for loads of information on the subject. I've found nothing to contradict what it says. |
Megan
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Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 05:03 AM
I have had a response from Dairy Crest, they say that it is nothing to do with them and most probably a hoax. I have come across nothing which says that it isn't a hoax. It is a shame that people have put time and effort to this scheme and to no avail. I'm hacked off, annoyed and cross that kind people will be disappointed, not to mention the waste that I thought was being recycled! |
Sarah
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Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 05:18 AM
<a href="http://www.edp24.co.uk/Content/Your_Rubbish/news/story.asp?datetime=02+Sep+2004+07%3A00&tbrand=EDPOnline&tCategory=RECYCLE&category=Recycle&brand=EDPOnline&itemid=NOED01+Sep+2004+19%3A32%3A43%3A497">Eastern Daily Press Newspaper Report on Bottle Top Hoax.</a>
Excerpts:-
A spokeswoman for the British Plastics Federation also said that there were no schemes for recycling bottle tops for cash.
Steve Webb, from waste and recycling group Waste Watch, said: "We have had quite a lot of people that have collected them and tried to cash them in but didn't find anywhere to take them. The plastic involved is of low grade anyway and is more or less worthless compared with other plastics."
The group (Waste Watch) have also posted a warning on its website that there is nowhere in Britain that takes the bottle tops in exchange for cash or wheelchairs.
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Babs
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Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 06:45 AM
Oh boy, have collected so many of these and now think that it MUST be a hoax. Why is Greg the only person who seems sure it's not. Greg, unless you too are a hoaxer can you please give details of the recycling company you claim will take these?
Ta |
Megan
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Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 08:33 AM
Yes, come forward Greg whoever you are |
Richard
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Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 11:57 AM
Boy am I glad to find this site. I can now safely get rid of the billions of plastic bottle tops I have managed to collect. I approached local schools and businesses to collect also. Each and every one of them only too delighted to help. However it is me with egg on my chin as I now need to shift the bloody things. If anyone wants them just let me know. I thought about approaching local art colleges to see if they wanted to make a huge plastic wheelchair so we can all remember the great hoax!! Quite frankly though I couldnt be bothered I have done enough arseing about already. |
Richard
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Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 12:03 PM
Also I am now collecting ten pound notes. Any donations greatfully received. If I get enough I will buy some bloody wheelchairs myself. |
Richard
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Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 | 11:49 AM
Sent a further e-mail to Kerry Pollard MP as I had seen on his site that a young man had alledgedly collected 90,000 tops and received three wheelchairs. I e-mailled his office to see if they could forward some details. This is the reply I received, 'UNFORTUNATELY EXTENSIVE ENQUIRIES BY CONSTITUENCY OFFICE STAFF HAVE RESULTED IN NO POSSIBLE OUTLET FOR PLASTIC BOTTLE TOPS' I think its safe to say we can all get rid of our tops cant we. |
Sarah
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Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 | 07:08 AM
After much searching online, the only UK collection I have found that accepts and recycles bottle tops (as scrap, not for wheelchairs) is detailed at
GHS & Smile plastics tops recycling and Naomi House recycling
The minimum recyclable amount seems to be 1 tonne (approx 100,000 bottle tops, worht |
Sarah
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Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 | 07:15 AM
Sorry for duplicate replies. A quirk of the company server. |
Dominic
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 | 06:30 AM
I suspect Greg is a troll, if these schemes are legitimate, why is nobody able to provide a shred of real evidence?
All people seem to do is climb up on their very high horses and badmouth anyone who has the temerity to ask reasonable questions.
If you are convinced you are right about plastic bottle tops for wheelchairs, then logically you would be only too happy to give links to those sponsoring such schemes to ensure that more people take part.
As this is undoubtedly such a good cause, why not collect things with a definite value such as one and two pence coins ? |
Jenny
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 | 09:24 AM
I work at a hospital, we collect bottle tops for a little boy who was in desperate need for a wheelchair. but there was No little boy?
If any one needs bottle tops go to the local councils they take them off your plastic bottles and discard them. i could have collect one ton from my council
this is a sick HOAX |
jade
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 | 06:52 AM
I'm a bit confused about this. If the whole thing is a hoax, is it the company that is supposedly providing the wheelchair, or the family that needs the wheelchair that is doing the hoaxing? Are they fake claims, or just a sick organisation that promises things that it doesnt intend to follow through?
Also, how much does an average motored wheelchair cost normally? |
The Curator
in San Diego
Member
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 | 09:54 AM
Jade, the hoaxer would be some rogue prankster that gets his kicks out of seeing how he can manipulate and deceive other people. The company providing the wheelchair, the family supposedly benefiting, and all the people who collect the bottle tops would all be victims of this anonymous prankster. |
jade
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Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 | 10:04 AM
That's really sick. I've been collecting bottle tops for a local charity though, and this one is definately NOT a scam. We've been given addresses etc. and it has been confirmed by a local hospital that this the real thing. I understand that a lot of the claims are fake and I think those people are really sick and twisted, but you've gotta check the claims out and make sure that you know everything before you jump to conclusions. It's sad that some genuine causes are gonna suffer just because some sicko has done this. It needs to be stopped. |
Dominic Shields
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Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 | 05:54 AM
Jade, thanks for your reply, I'd be really grateful if you could you give exact details of how this is not a scam. For example what is being provided, who the sponsors are, what the value of their donation is and where the sponsors are going to take the bottle tops.
Also why would the sponsors not accept things with a tangible monetary value such as coins ?
Thanks
Dominic |
Maegan
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Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 | 09:51 AM
IF bottle-tops were being used it would be similar I think to the Box-tops for education in the U.S. It's not that the item is WORTH anything...but it proves that the collector went out of their way to purchase a product. (If I collected caps from a gallon of milk, & I collected 1,000 caps then I spent about $3,790 on milk!) The company looks at it more like an incentive to buy their product over another. I think it's sort of like a recent soda push here...if you collected a soda top from a 20oz or 2-liter bottle...there was a code on the top. If you went to a website you could enter the code & the code was 'worth' a certain # of points. The more points you got...the more option you had to 'purchase' something with your points. A 20oz bottletop was worth 1 point & a 2-liter was worth 5. BUT the item you were going for was 2,000 points. It would take 2,000 20oz sodas to 'purchase' a backpack. That's roughly $2,380 spent on soda. (Average bottle purchased individually were I am costs $1.19 w/ tax.) So the theory itself COULD work. It's almost like that thread about the free I-pod if you sign up for something. If you buy almost $3,000 worth of OUR product we'll give you a backpack that ACTUALLY costs $8 at your nearest department store. Drink up! |
Maegan
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Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 | 09:55 AM
Also...my father-in-law got one of those motorized chairs b/c of his 'handicap'. (Please, the man could spend 8 hours in the mall...but needed to have his parking space 2 feet from the door?) I think the actual cost of the scooter was $7,000. You can buy models a LOT cheaper...some models that did not have a leather seat & cherry-red finish might run between $1,500 - $3,000. Non-motorized models might cost significantly less...but my father-in-law couldn't POSSIBLE use his arms to move himself around...so I don't know anything about those. |
Dominic Shields
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Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 | 11:36 AM
Maegan, for your model to work, the dairy companies would presumably be sponsoring this, I have established in other investigations that they aren't. Someone in this thread has established that the tops have virtually no value - 60 quid a tonne and the plastic cannot be used for anything useful. The other problem with your model is twofold, firstly does anyone need any incentive to buy milk ? Secondly milk is milk, I don't think the concept of brand loyalty comes into it. It rather reminds me of the joke adverts in "Viz" - "Smoke Tabs", "Sleep in a bed", "Eat Crisps" etc. |
Maegan
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Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 | 12:10 PM
I was simply using it as an example...& there are about 3 specific brands of milk that I can think of right off...T.G. Lee, Velda Farms (local), & Publix (local). T.G. Lee's slogan used to be, "We all grew up on T.G. Lee!" The thread was started based on a MILK CAP campaign. I used milk to illustrate.
Again...the caps do not need to be WORTH anything. It's incentive. "If you buy THIS brand & bring THIS MANY caps...we'll donate a wheelchair to charity." It very well could be real...but b/c of a lack of evidence we can't prove that it is. With the relatively high price of dairy in the U.S. (dairy products prices seem to have doubled in just a few years) I could very well see brand loyalty being an issue. Box Tops for education work the same way. If you bring in the box tops to your school, they can mail them to this address & get money for your school! It's a cereal box-top. It's worth NOTHING. I can't even think where I can go to get money for recycling cardboard. Cereal is something every household has. The Box Tops also come on the tops of cake mixes, ready-to-mix dinners, muffin mix, etc...all from the same brand...Betty Crocker (maybe?).
We don't know if the dairy companies are sponsering this, because for every person that says, "I contacted them...they're not sponsoring this..., " there's a person that says, "It really happened, I collected a million tops & watched them do it all!" Saying milk is milk might be true...Milk is milk. It all comes from cows...not even special cows. Just plain ol' dairy cows. But T.G. Lee has a special yellow container to help keep in vitamins (who can tell?!). It's the same price as Velda Farms. So someone picks up the T.G. Lee b/c it looks like the better deal. More vitamins...same price. (Although, Velda farms make the BEST chocolate milk, EVER.) So incentive for brand loyalty will play a part here.
Milk for drinking is in decline. Kids don't want to drink it...adults won't even put it in their coffee (they use halfnhalf). So give people an incentive to buy milk is the whole point. Sure icecream, butter, all those things are great. People will always want them. But unless you need a cup of milk for your muffin batter...most milk purchased goes into the cereal and then into the sink. Milk caps aren't worth anything. That's the bottom line. Is there anyone out there who is taking them in for charity use?? That's what we're trying to figure out.
Geez Louise! |
Dominic Shields
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Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 | 01:11 PM
I think that this is getting a little more complicated than it needs to. The dairy companies are not sponsoring such a scheme so as you say any speculation that follows this hypothetical is not worth pursuing. |
Clive
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 | 06:44 AM
We are Naomi House, the Childrens Hospice near Winchester. We are definitely collecting and recycling screw on milk bottle tops along with old mobile phones,used & empty printer and phtocopier cartridges, stamps and foriegn currency. We get no government funding so we need every contribution possible to help us to care for children who will not live to become adults and to support their families as the childs illness progresses and then through bereavement So the more tops the better. For more details call 01962 843513 or see our website www.naomihouse.org.uk |
Dominic
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 | 08:50 AM
Clive, would it be worth your while reading these links?
http://www.shartwell.freeserve.co.uk/humor-site/walkers-hoax.htm
http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBrand=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED01+Sep+2004+19%3A32%3A43%3A497
Also, what is the mechanism by which the bottle tops are converted into cash ? What recycling agency or other body accepts them in return for cash ?
I am utterly convinced by the immense worth of your cause, but I have a feeling that a lot of effort invested into the milk bottle tops collection is going to waste.
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Maegan
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 | 09:57 AM
Clive, are they plastic screw-ons or metal? |
Brian
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Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 | 10:51 AM
Aren't we getting a little away from the subject here? The hoax is about collecting plastic milk bottle tops in order to provide a wheelchair for someone. So far the only definite proof we have that they're even worth anything at all is from this news item http://www.letsrecycle.com/materials/plastics/news.jsp?story=3853 showing that Naomi House Hospice can get around |
Maegan
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Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 | 11:10 AM
tsk tsk. One must remain calm down! I probably go off-subject more than anyone...and I don't feel that we've done that here. |
Dominic Shields
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Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 | 07:13 PM
I actually understand Brian's frustration because this whole hoax targets such singularly well-intentioned people who seem to get annoyed at anyone raising reasonable doubts at its veracity.
I would venture to suggest that the plastic tops recycling hoax bears many similarities to religious belief.
Nobody I have spoken to has raised any objections to my assertion that in terms or collecting items for money, there can be few things to choose more intrinsically worthless than plastic bottle tops. Nobody I have spoken to can see a single flaw in my follow-up assertion that collecting coppers (1 and 2 pence coins) would be far more productive. |
Robin
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Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 | 12:27 PM
I too have been collecting plastic tops to get wheelchairs for kids , along with other organisations. The bags of tops were passed on to a third party who had a sponsor that was matching any monies made to get electric wheelchairs for two kids . One boy and one girl were supplied with chairs , but now the sponsor has withdrawn their support . So now we are looking for a new sponsor , so if you know of anyone willing to be a good samaritan and continue the sponsorship , please leave a message for me . |
Dominic Shields
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Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 | 03:14 PM
Robin, is there any chance that privately or publically you could supply me with the details of the sponsors, the number of tonnes of bottle tops collected, the amount raised per tonne and the reasoning behind collecting something with so little value.
What for instance would be the problem with collecting the bottles themselves ? |
Maegan
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Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 | 11:21 AM
That's what I can't figure out...Why not the bottles? From reading the posts I've gathered that there are not any charities who are using recycled tops to MAKE money. Some posts have said that they have participated in a program, but there has been no proof. Naomi house is the only post that seems legit...but again...who is accepting the bottle tops for/as/in lieu of money?? |
Dominic Shields
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Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 | 04:24 PM
I started a thread some days ago in alt.folklore.urban on this subject and one of the contributors offered what I think to be a very perceptive remark.
"I have seen people involved in these campaigns before, usually associated with church. I don't see how the organizer can not know that it is a hoax, so I cynically assume that they are flexing their muscles by doing this."
I find the psychology fascinating, particularly the mechanism whereby anyone who seeks information is automatically a heretic. |
Robin
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Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 | 02:20 PM
The bottle tops we have been collecting have been passed on to a legitimate collection point I can assure you . We even have letters from the third party thanking us for our worthwhile contribution towards the wheelchairs . It shouldn,t prove too difficult for me to find out the lady in questions name and a few solid details . As they say watch this space .If , as has been suggested it is a hoax then Naomi House in Winchester sounds an ideal alternative and we will keep on collecting for them if they want to take them . |
Jayne
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Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 | 02:39 PM
This NOT a SCAM (I hope) my little borthers school ahs just collected millions of these for a company to send a terminally ill child on a trip to florida to swim with dolphins (it was all arranged by the local priest- so i hope it's not a scam but you never know these days) I will find out which company the bottle tops were going to and post it later. |
Dominic Shields
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Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 | 03:14 PM
Once again, nobody doubts your sincerity, but I still haven't seen any answers. These articles also appear to be sincere and do provide references.
http://www.shartwell.freeserve.co.uk/humor-site/walkers-hoax.htm
http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBrand=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED01+Sep+2004+19%3A32%3A43%3A497
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Dominic Shields
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Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 | 11:02 AM
After speaking to someone with a more practical approach to problem-solving than me I have done the following calculations.
I weighed 18 bottle tops which was 40g
I weighed one 2 pint plastic bottle which was 40g
(Weighing stuff this light accurately probably needs better equipment than I have)
So 1 metric tonne (1000KG) would be 450000 tops or 25000 2 pint bottles.
Taking the optimistic upper value of |
Rex D.
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 | 05:49 PM
Who cares about weight. If a lot of people pitched in with bottle caps and all, it would add up fast enough. Besides, someone gets something good out of the deal, and you were going to throw them away anyway, so why not help an unfortunate person in need, if you are capable that is? |
Dominic Shields
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 | 04:27 AM
Absolutely help people, but that's my point, why not help them in a more productive way ? Collecting almost anything else is going to be more productive, the whole legend in this case hinges on mysterious generous benefactors, What would be the problem with these benefactors giving money for more effective schemes - such as matching every |
Rex D.
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 | 01:19 PM
That matching of weight/money thing is really cool, but thats not what is supposedly happening. I still say the bottle cap thing isn't all that bad of an idea. Like I said before, the bottle caps are just going to get thrown in the garbage, unless something better like this is going on. And it is not as inefficient as come claim it either. If you take thousands of people/families saving their caps, it will add up fast enough. But I agree, your matching thing is a better idea, but I don't think anyones currently doing that, so do the bottle cap thing in the mean time until someone starts matching. |
Dominic Shields
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 | 01:26 PM
So the news story linked to earlier in this thread that says :
"A word of mouth charity collection has left hundreds of people across the region with thousands of worthless milk bottle tops. Staff rooms, homes and offices are full of the green, red and blue plastic lids that have been collected by people believing they would fund a child's wheelchair or artificial limb.
Now two leading UK plastics organisations are warning collectors that they are almost certainly wasting their time. Steve Webb, from waste and recycling group Waste Watch, said: "We have had quite a lot of people that have collected them and tried to cash them in but didn't find anywhere to take them. "The plastic involved is of low grade anyway and is more or less worthless compared with other plastics."
Is in your opinion incorrect ? Why do you think this ?
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Rex D.
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Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 | 11:34 PM
Yeah, I didn't see that. That's messed up. Who started all that crap to begin with? |
Dominic Shields
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 | 04:19 AM
This is the problem, everyone wades in assuming I'm a troublemaker, I'm not, I'm someone with an interest in urban legends and why people believe the things they do. In this case however I'm seriously trying to get people to discover whether their well-meaning efforts are going to waste.
Sadly things very quickly get into a "calling X a liar are you?" or "Why don't you do better ?" kind of mentality.
You only have to look through this thread to see devout beliefs but without a shred of evidence - remind you of anything?
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REX D.
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 | 03:58 PM
I assumed no such thing. I want everybody aware of the fact that I never said It was or wasn't a hoax, I merely said if it was true, I don't see a damn thing wrong with it. I however do see a DAMN thing wrong with it being a hoax, wasting the time of all the people that saved bottle caps. I want to know the source of the problem, who started telling people to save bottle caps, so I can tell him he's gonna have to save his own ass. |
Dominic Shields
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 | 06:39 PM
I'm sorry but you clearly haven't had the experience I have with trying in as kindly a way as possible to ask people to be more sceptical, reading things like :
"Who cares about weight. If a lot of people pitched in with bottle caps and all, it would add up fast enough"
Just makes me lose patience when all I was doing was trying to point out the absurdity of the scheme even though I knew full well that such an argument is unneccessary as the thing is a hoax. |
Rex D.
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 | 07:05 PM
Right, but I wasn't saying it wasn't a hoax, just what's the harm in it. That's all I was trying to say. |
Rex D.
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 | 07:12 PM
I took in mind from the start that it was a hoax, but had nothing to go on. It's that people were saying"why even do it if it is really not a hoax?" Why the hell not? If it was real, somebody would have got something good out of it. Thats why. But it is not real. So screw it. And why do you lose patience over a discussion like this? Just think to yourself--- I;m right and that's all I need to know. But not egotistically. Your not trying to save the world through this forum, are you? So why get angry, impatient, or anything like that? |
Dominic Shields
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Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 | 12:43 PM
This may be a duplicate message as the site has changed and my original message gone . . .
Firstly sorry, what I said was not meant as a personal attack - apologies.
Do I get angry easily ? No not really.
Am I trying to save the world ? No not really.
Do I think I'm right ? Its not about being right, its more like "What's wrong with applying a little bit of common-sense scepticism to rumours, anecdotes and things that really happened to a friend's cousin" ?
A couple of books worth reading:
"Bad Thoughts: A Guide to Clear Thinking" by Jamie Whyte
"How We Know What Isn't So" by Thomas Gilovich |
Rex D.
in Milwaukee, WI
Member
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Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 | 04:03 PM
OK Dom. Got ya'. I wasn't trying to be offensive, so I am sorry if I did offend you in any way. And is it just me, or has this site changed? Is it a hoax? |
Mick G.
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Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 | 11:47 PM
Ok,if everyone has finished arguing!Is there somebody out there thats going to leave a message with any hard facts in it. Its all very well saying I know somebody that "is doing" or "has had" but how about an address or website. Surely in the age of I.T., any cause that had been offered such benefits would be advertising somewhere for help! |
Rex D.
in Milwaukee, WI
Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 | 01:00 AM
Mick G. Nobody is arguing. If you had paid attention to the earlier threads, you would know it is a hoax. You are correct, hearsay means nothing. You will not find any websites because it isn't real. Hence the word: hoax. Nobody is funding anything. It's all crap. Would it be safe to say that we can move on to something else now? Or does somebody have somewhere new to go with this? And where the hell are the smiley's? They're fun. Don't leave me out of smiley world. I'm sure your up to your neck in this Alex, so don't take me seriously. |
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