Natasha Demkina, a young girl living in Saransk, Russia, began to receive a lot of media attention around the middle of last month. It started with
an article in Pravda, which hailed her as the 'Girl with X-ray vision'. You see, Natasha possesses the unusual ability to peer through human flesh and spot diseases and injuries that are lurking unseen within people's bodies. Or, at least, this is what Pravda claimed. It didn't take long for
more newspapers to catch onto the story. The British
Sun has been the most relentless about pursuing it. They've actually
flown Natasha to London and are now parading her around like some kind of weird curiosity. Does Natasha really have x-ray eyes? Well, I doubt it. But I'm sure
The Sun is going to milk this for all it's worth.
Comments
just because you things has to be "scientific" and it needs to be proven biologically means its true. people these day.
it's possible she could see through living tissues or see aura. we could find her ability really helpful. if she is doing the "cold reading" she is really skillful...unlike nick here. who tries making money for making other people look like a fraud.
americans... anything is possible, but it doesnt mean it's impossible if you dont have the ability to do that. what she did up there was really amazing and you guys still trying to insult her claims.
she even flown to london and japan. they were all impressed by her ability. i don't see why nick has to prove anything. its almost like if nick doesn't understand women.
http://www.victorzammit.com/articles/natashacansue.html
Does anyone understand a 17 year old girl?
Does anyone understand the chemical inbalance of a women after giving birth to a child?
Does anyone understand that even though they are wrong they wont admit it?
Who are we to say she is a fraud?
I don't see any harm done so far...
If Loozer and Trollfeeder would kindly submit themselves for an autopsy, they could greatly help scientists discover what goes wrong inside of broken minds.
The only reason I can see that he's so defensive is because he knows he's wrong and if he admitted it, it would be the end of his career and reputation - not mention the reputations of his cronies. So he fights every little battle with every weapon at his disposal. He even has the balls to attack a Nobel Prize winner on page 10 of this thread, saying "I don't think Brian Josephson has done anything "truly scientific" since winning his Nobel prize in 1973 -- the same year he turned to the dark side and endorsed the real, genuine fake psychic powers
Natasha isn't dumb if she's really a fraud. Just like Nick isn't a really an ass. Some people are recieving bad information or being mistreated. Just like Natasha is being mistreated with her test.
Definite Trolldom. And ya know what, he's used that little jewel before.
The guy is out of control.
Nick must be awesome winning that prize. I want to nominate askolnick as the best Troll of the year. :coolgrin:
Actually, I'm a little worried about our little Troll. Someone commented earlier in this forum's thread the askolnick gets wilder and wilder. Threats, insults, condescending putdowns.
Is he getting drunk? Is he off his meds? Is he just an unbelievably classic Troll? Can he really be the respected and renowned Andrew Skolnick, tamer of the young Russian teenage girl, who is required reading at a respected university? Can he leap tall buildings in a single bound; is an alien from another world? Look, up in the sky, it's a bird, it's a plane, it's SUPERTROLL!! Nothing mild-mannered about this reporter for a small, he's rude, he's abusive, he's insulting, he's INSANE!!!
Oh my. UncleBob, where are you when we need you...
askolnick, this is what you get when you insult the unwashed masses. Snark.
Now he's going to take his ball and go home. Boo hoo. You can dish out insults and high-schoolish remarks, but you can't take 'em.
What a sad sack. Wish UncleBob were here to witness the last assholenick insult. Character assassin indeed. From a guy who wants to perform autopsies on teenagers. Great. I'm calling Southern Methodist Univ. tomorrow to enroll.
I just love it! Didn't clown-troll read his own posts? They're totally outrageous and insulting. Been that way for over a YEAR, with this mamas boy insulting people on the thread. Starting with poor Puck and his math skills.
You will return? What do you think, you're MacArthur?
CSICOP changed the test after Natasha got to New York. This change was by introducing two elements that she said she could not
"just because you things has to be "scientific" and it needs to be proven biologically means its true. people these day."
What did you intend to say there? That paragraph makes no sense.
"it's possible she could see through living tissues or see aura."
PROVE IT!
"we could find her ability really helpful. if she is doing the "cold reading" she is really skillful."
Yes, it would be helpful IF someone could see through solid objects. Unfortunately, no one can. As for the "cold reading" thing, many people are skilled at it. Actually, you don't have to be all that good at it if you have an audience that accepts you at face value.
"americans... anything is possible, but it doesnt mean it's impossible if you dont have the ability to do that. what she did up there was really amazing and you guys still trying to insult her claims."
The burden of proof is on the person making an extraordinary claim. Those of you who support this girl want to turn that around, but it isn't going to happen. If she can do what she claims to be able to do under controlled conditions, there is a million dollars just waiting for her.
"she even flown to london and japan. they were all impressed by her ability."
So what? David Blaine has travelled to London where many people were impressed with him. He's still just a magician.
"i don't see why nick has to prove anything. its almost like if nick doesn't understand women."
What ARE you taling about here?
"What ARE you taling about here?"
What are you talking about?
I'm making typos and talking random crap 😊
"So what? David Blaine has travelled to London where many people were impressed with him. He's still just a magician."
Is David Blaine = Natasha Demkina? I never specifically said who were impressed and why they were impressed. Stop making assumption.
The post I made earlier was a bunch of random crap to get you guys goign with the argue, but I'm trying to say "where is the love"? LOVE!! love <3<3<3<3 LOvEvEevLover~ Stop hating. Just because you sit at home and eat American food (burgers fries and fatty stuff) doesn't makes you any better than her. LOVEERERE
Also... where is your proof of her claims are fake? Were all humans!!! Lovereoveelore
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/criticandokardec/CSICOP-vs-Natasha-Demkina.htm
Good. This further proves to me that alskolnick jumps to the wrong conclusions from the facts given.
Yes, indeed, UncleBob is posting from the same IP because he is Archangel's uncle - thus..Uncle Bob! Wow! Now guess Archangel's age and gender.
And, neither UncleBob nor Archangel are Julio. We watched the show for the first time a few days ago. UncleBob turned to Archangel and said, you know, if she's got x-ray eyes, maybe these smartasses should have brought a Gieger counter. Just because Julio had the same thought, and hit a lot of the same points doesn't mean we're him.
Does that look like a brazilian IP address to you?
Numbskull Troll. Askolnick, you are the master at reworking quotes. You do it all the time. Twisting things people say.
I think anyone can see who the real Troll is askolnick. You. Your responses are so predictably trollish that it's laughable!
Anti-science. Very funny. You left out something. I'm anti-bad-science.
Don't feed the Trollnick! And hey, didn't you say YOU weren't going to feed the Trolls, and make like MacArthur and "return" from your ivory tower to post your "respectable links" from the anals of bad science?
You actually like being part of the flaming message contingent, don't you? I think it's truly a means for you to get your frustrations out.
Furious virulence. Very poetic. Someone should use that as a screen name....heh...
When you're working from a NAT address on a SOHO, that's the way the IP ball bounces.
Good job on getting this thread off track and away from the solid points that have been made against askolnick and his bad science.
"Puck, your opinion of whether the passing score, which was agreed to by Natasha and her represenetatives, was too high is no more credible than your previous false statements about the statistics. You best return here under a new screen name because this one has been pretty much discredited. --ASkolnick"
This is on page 2 of the thread, December 10, 2004.
What was askolnick trying to do? (besides insulting the poster and belittling him/her) Encourage dishonesty? Set a TRAP for the poster? "Ah-hah! You're using the same IP adddress...gotcha! Fell into my diabolical trap! Got you like I got x-ray girl. Am I not so very clever?" Whoo-hoo!
This is like dealing with a child. alskolnick cannot be an adult. He sure brings out the child in me! Hey, wait...I may actually be a child. But not from Brazil....heh...
What a Troll!
This is exactly what csicop should have done, created a test that ensured that there was no confusion about their results or motives.
It's a perfect example of that, however intentional it may have been.
It's also an example of how askolnick uses the worst possible scenario to evaluate a situation, and doesn't care to examine more balanced views. I'll bet if two of his supporters were posting from the same NAT, he'd be counting them as two different individuals.
I definitely admit to Troll behavior. But it's just reflexive biting at the Supertroll - aaskolnik.
This is a great game. I'm rubber, you're glue, it bounces off me and sticks to you.
You know, I only have time for this because I just got out a month-long stay in the hospital and I'm recovering. What is the excuse for a "reputable" researcher like aaskolnick? It's just unbelievable. Interesting, but weird.
While you may be a nasty little troll, when it comes to lying, you're as big as a giant.
Was it the bridge in Brazil or the one in Russia? Or the one across the River Kwai?
Since we have been identified as posting from the same IP address, are we no longer welcome on your site? I know we have participated in lots of flaming communications with one of the other posters, but we have genuine concerns and questions that we'd like to continue adding to the forum. But, if we're no longer welcome, then we will be happy to quit giving our clicks.
Thank you,
Archangel, UncleBob and the rest of the as-yet-unposted household.
Not that anyone else necessarily wants to post from here. Mom's not to thrilled with our "obsession" Well. Ok. Archangel's seeming obsession. UncleBob could really care less and he's having a beer.
Thank you. I completely understand the concern about multiple personality creation, and I really appreciate your kind response.
It's not something either one of us would do, and we didn't really even think about it when we posted. Once I realized how it must have looked, it was a really strange position to be in and I had no idea how to fix it. Even if I posted photos of me and my uncle, what would that prove?
We acually have five pc's in the house using the same router connection. Glad my mom didn't post, that probably would have resulted in a total breakdown on the thread...heh..
I'll also try to keep things toned down a bit. I'm hoping the other poster will too.
Thank you again, Charybdis in Hell.
I like your screen name, btw. I'm a fan of ancient mythology - ok, well, I'll admit it, I really connected the name from the tv show "Hercules, the Legendary Journeys" one of my favs.. 😊
Thanks!
So face it, atrollnick. You don't understand the situation of the test and what happen if you were there. You're just making up bogus to support your fantasy world of "I am right no matter what you say".
Bottom line... Natasha can "see" the actual flow of inside the human body.
I think this askonick claims that he actually IS one of the csicop researchers who performed the "x-ray eyes" test and appeared on the documentary.
Let's say that I have my doubts...but there are indications that he could be one of the guys who put together that poorly constructed "test" and then littered the process with insulting barbs and innuendo that really have no place in good science, at least when dealing with it's subjects. It's bad enough when researchers and scientists insult their own peers, but to insult the subjects, that's worse than unprofessional.
If this truly is A. Skolnick, csicop, then his lack of professionalism on this very site are very enlightening. I've had a thought that someone might even be impersonating him here in order to make him look bad. But then again, it does match some of the poor behavior seen on the documentary and in the csicop journals on the subject.
Also, I think his analysis of the evidence where my "identity" has been concerned shows certain little gaps in his abilities, as he has been oh-so-off-target in his wild and strongly worded accusations. <sigh>
You write: "If this truly is A. Skolnick, csicop, then his lack of professionalism on this very site are very enlightening."
What's the matter, did you forget you were no longer typing as "Tollfeeder?"
Do you think anyone here with at least half a brain is fooled by your posting as an illiterate numbskull to cheer the "brillance" of your own posts? Archangel, most people aren't as stupid as you apparently think. I suspect most can see right though your troll games.
Verify with the Moderator, if you like.
You're just classic troll. Picking on an obvious typo, then claiming I'm posting as an "illiterate". Insulting Trollfeeder in the process. What a champ you are. You obviously know how to speak to the unwashed masses. I learn from the master. Sheesh.
I think the original sentence was actually:
"If this truly is A. Skolnick, csicop, then his lack of professionalism, insulting behavior, wild and outrageous comments, and continual displays of troll-like behaviors on this very site are very enlightening."
It bears repeating, with the inherent correction involved..thanks for the opportunity..heh..
Then you prove my point IMMEDIATELY! It's brilliant!
Trollfeeder is right, though...you are quite the "ticked off troll" I'm truly impressed at your almost exacting ability to exhibit true, classic, Internet Troll behavior.
I like the way everything is a big conspiracy with you. You know what they say about "projecting".
Yep, I've done a little trolling on this site, but my god, man, you take the cake!
I would hardly call a troll sitting alone in his room, pretending to be multiple posters, a "big conspiracy." I'd call it "sad."
Archangel, you're fooling no one. You're a conspiracy of one.
Everyone who disagrees with askolnik is a Natasha supporter and is "anti-science".
Conspiracy.
Askolnick's accusations follow this weird and paranoid trail:
UncleBob was some Brazilian dude.
UncleBob and Archangel both were some Brazilian dude.
Archangel, UncleBob, and the Brazilian dude were all posting as illiterate "junior highschooler trolls"
Then Archangel and UncleBob were Trollfeeder and god only knows who else. But apparently not the Brazilian dude any longer.
UncleBob and Archangel cannot be separate people, because askolnick has no idea as to how networks function!
Some scientist, eh?
Maybe this entire thread is the result of a wild, insane paranoid delusion on the part of A. Skolnick: insane and paranoid csicop! Weirdo at large. Maybe every single post is from A. Skolnick and his multiple personalities.
Everybody's out to get poor little askolkinck.
I'd call that a borderline paranoid delusion in which everyone is 'conspiring' against askolnick. Yep, askolnick definitely has feelings of inadequacy...er, uh, conspiracy.
Or, askolnick's out to get everyone. That sounds more likely.
I think what everyone sees is that askolnick focuses on ANYTHING except the real issues. Misdirection is the name of the game. Well, along with insults, intimidation, repeating the same thing over and over...basically...trolling.
"Conspiracy of one" eh? I didn't know you were a rock fan!
http://www.offspring.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Offspring.woa/wa/albums?releaseName=Conspiracy+Of+One
Wanna play some more troll?
:lol:
lol!
Hi Everybody,
Well, first of all I am not either Uncle Bob or Arch-angel. My name is Julio Siqueira and I have written some stuff on the web about the "investigation" (...???) that CSICOP and their "appendix" (CSMMH... - Skolnick included) have performed on poor Natasha girl in that TV program by the Discovery Channel. Just today I received an email letting me know of this list, and the guy asked me if I think it is really Skolnick that is posting on it. I say, Yes! It very much looks like him, and he knows things (even in his latest postings) that only Skolnick (or almost only him) knows. Anyway, I will be sending my postings to this list with a copy directly to Skolnick's email, just in case he has a "double" (Who knows? With so much paranormality and so many ghosts hanging around). As has been already indicated by some members, my main page about Natasha is at the link below:
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/criticandokardec/CSICOP-vs-Natasha-Demkina.htm
Professor Brian Josephson has kindly placed a link in his web page to my analysis, and I very much thank him for his public efforts to make parapsychology better respected and less prejudiced against. I think all mankind benefits from it. At the same time, I thank CSICOP and friends (avowed skeptics in general) for the counter-balance they give to the excess of credulity in the paranormal. Mankind also greatly benefits from their work (again, Skolnick included... yes, I do not satanize Skolnick. Just like Disney's Shrek, and onions, he has "layers"). But I am nevertheless highly critical of CSICOP's unscientific procedures (again, Skolnick included), which actually are procedures that end up being counter-productive to what they claim to be their very social goal. I want briefly to "correct" some (but not all) misinformation posted by the one that calls himself "askolnick", and then briefly state my general position regarding Natasha and "the Natasha Affair" (i.e. the Csicop investigation of her).
I had many exchanges of email with Skolnick about their investigation. I did not want at first to investigate this case. Actually, two friends of mine in Brazil, one a believer and the other a skeptic (one still a friend; but the skeptic is now an ex friend, unfortunately) ended up luring me into that, because as a matter of fact I did not agree with either of them. Topmost, I saw signs of serious misconduct from the part of Csicop et al (as I have spotted so very often; please look at my anti-skeptic site for a better account of it, including book reviews where I show that some Csicop members do not read what they cite, including late phylosopher Paul Edwards and physicist Victor Stenger).
Continues in part 2
I can say that being a man of so explosive a temper, Skolnick resisted pretty well the questionings and criticism that I advanced to him along the way (I, also having a temper, resisted also well his touchy and stingy way of adressing me...). Basically we broke because I misunderstood something he told me. He said something like Natasha was, during the test, say, seven meters from the subjects when she was sitting, and when she stood up she would get one meter closer. I wrongly understood that she would get one meter close (One Meter CLOSE, and not One Meter CLOSER, that is, I understood it as if she was allowed to stand up and walk as far close as one meter), and thought that he was misreporting the event (as I had seen in the documentary). Instead of cheking this only with him, I sent an email to Natasha's parties and Discovery Channel's people regarding this "discrepancy" of account. I sent a copy of this email to Skolnick at the very same time, keeping him informed of it. He blew! Eight hours after I sent the email to everybody, I read his reply where he laid clear my mistake. Immediatly I sent an email to everybody emphasizing that Skolnick had not said that Natasha got one meter close to the subjects. I also explained the reason for my misundertanding. Bad as my mistake might have been, I did not like Skolnick's reply to it in such a, let put it this way, "informal manner". He said he was "pissed off to say the least". I do not give him the permission to use this kind of language in that kind of situation. English is not only the language of America. It is an international language. I do not care if he uses the expression "pissed off" when he adresses the priests and judges in his home town. This is strong language, and when one uses strong language in delicate situations, the aftermath can be explosive. So I blew as well. My response to him was just as impolite. Since I am not afraid of hard talk, or of hard data, I did not chicken out of the debate. It was him that stopped the email exchanges.
The most important thing in this incident above is that the reason why I did not ask Skolnick beforehand about the discrepency is because I stopped believing in what he was telling me. Technically and factually, he lied to me in many instances. I describe this in detail in my review of their experiment with Natasha.
Continues in part 3
So, basically, what is the problem with the experiment that Csicop did with Natasha? Did they do their best, given the conditions? I would say, yes. Is their statistics acceptable, and is their demand of five hits proper? I would say, yes. Is their conclusion that there seems to be serious problems with the alleged "X-ray" vision of Natasha a sound conclusion? I would say, yes. The problem is not these ones. The problem is that they violated their own protocols in very many ways (as I describe in details in my review), and nowhere do they acknowledge this. The problem is that they know that their test cannot yield final proof, and yet Hyman is happy to appear in the documentary saying that Natasha is living an illusion. The problem is that they know that there were conditions that favored Natasha during the test but also conditions that hindered her, and nowhere do they acknowledge this. The problem is that they are (or better, were) dealing with a girl that was quite amenable to being tested, that seemed to be very very honest, a girl that might incorporate the skeptic feedbacks from them, and yet they were indeed very dishonest to her. And since she is not supid, she perceives this; and this may have a bad impact on the way she accepts being tested by skeptics from know on, therefore pushing her to what Wiseman labelled "the soft option" (the non skeptics), which is an action against the cause of the organized skeptic movement. The problem is that they are dealing with someone who is indeed an informal diagnostic therapist, and therefore she may be contributing to people's death with her possible false negatives and false positives. Csicop guys (Wiseman, Hyman, Nickell) seem to have led a happy life, and have never lost a loved one by the hands of the so called "alternative medicine". Those like me who have indeed lost close relatives to these clumsy (or even criminal) hands know how serious this situation is. What is really a shame is that Skolnick, instead of being part of the latter group (as I, naively, had imagined before...) seems to belong actually to the former happy group. What a deception!
So what about Natasha? I myself would not let her diagnose me. I would not trust her diagnose. But I do not say that she does not have power. She may have. It has to be investigated. There is a public health issue here at stake. Her powers, if any, seem to have serious problems (as I have clearly commented in detail in my review). So she has to learn more about them. That is what she seems to be willing for, and what she is doing indeed. She entered medical school. Good for Natasha. She scored a hit. As for the Csicop (and appendixes) losers, again they scored a miss...
continues in part 4
Other misreportings by Skolnick will be corrected later. And as he said, yes, I claim to be a biologist, graduation in State University of Rio de Janeiro in 1993 (Universidade Estadual do Rio de Janeiro) with a M.A. in clinical bacteriology in the same university in 2001. I have one article published as first author in the scientific medical journal Memorias do Instituto Oswaldo Cruz. I claim to be Julio Cesar de Siqueira Barros. And only that. A meager curriculum. But an honest and painstakinly acquired one. And I never worked as a biologist, I always stress. Just to warn the readers of the potential rust in my knowledge. I may not be perfect. But I am honest. Especially when dealing with public issues, and topmost when dealing with public health ones...
Best Regards for everybody,
Julio Siqueira
Julio Siqueira