Troy Hurtubise claims that he's invented a machine, dubbed the Angel Light, that can see through walls. It doesn't really matter what the wall is made of: wood, ceramic, steel, tin, titanium, even lead. The Angel Light can see right through it, just as if a window had opened up in the wall. Of course, he built this thing in his garage (where else?). The idea for the invention came to him in a dream, and he built it without the aid of any blueprints, drawings or schematics. Although Troy may hope to one day be known throughout the world as the inventor of the Angel Light, he's already well known as the inventor of the URSUS MARK VII, a suit that can help a man withstand the attack of a Grizzly Bear (see that suit in the right corner of the thumbnail? That's the Grizzly suit). So from Grizzly Bear suits to Machines That Can See Through Walls. No one can accuse him of not having an interesting resume.
Comments
Anyway I have spoken to a nuclear physicist about the Angel Light and will be presenting his feedback, and that of others in the science field, in a follow-up article, along with new photos of the device.
Let me leave you with a quote from the English astronomer and cosmologist Fred Hoyle:
""I don't see the logic of rejecting data just because they seem incredible."
I think we are witnessing a spectacle to be remembered. If we forget about the 'angel light' for the moment, we are witnessing the mindset that laughed at the Wright Brothers and laughed at Copernicus and lynched Galileo. We are privledges to witness the even that history books refer to tritely as 'popular disbelief' or 'resistance to their ideas', in reference to inventors and innovators. I just wish I could send this Troy guy an e-mail telling him that regardless of the invention he has my support just for trying.
best regards
Mr. Novak, may I suggest that in addition to a physicist, you might also want to talk to a magician. I design illusions for magicians, and I can assure you, there's plenty of ways to pull of Troy's effect that don't require exotic physics, and could easily fool a scientist. Remember that scientists aren't necessarily trained to detect fraud.
In fact, this is giving me a new idea for an illusion....
Oh and for the record I'm going to bet hes either got a high powered microwave/x-ray emitter or something that throws out a really nasty EMP as a side effect.
I can see you guys standing on the beach at Kitty Hawk laughing at the Wright bros. "Ha Ha, big deal you flew a couple hundred yards in that giant contraption. Man can't fly, don't you know that?" Of course what is true is that YOU never would fly. "I'm so smart I wouldn't even try it because I know it wouldn't work."
Let me just pose this question: Which of these two people, being equivilent in ability & IQ are more likely to invent something that defies the laws of physics over their lifetime.... someone who is well schooled in the sciences and laws of physics or the guy who is kind of a "garage genius" who just does stuff without regard to KNOWN limitations?
You might consider asking yourself WHO it is that LETS US KNOW what those physical laws are. The more likely that this x-ray vision machine is real, the less likely you'll ever hear about it.
Of course since you don't hear much about it, that'll convince you that you were completely right all along, that it was a hoax..... "Ha, see I told you, my years of education told me right away this was impossible!"
"Besides, if things like this or say, anti-gravity vehicles that operate on free energy were invented and real, we would hear all about it. It would be the discovery of our lifetime, with free energy we would no longer have a need for fossil fuels".......... Hello, anybody home?
There is a reason why Nikola Tesla, one of the greatest inventors ever, is not a household name. If I say Edison, you say light bulb and phonograph. If I say Tesla you immediately see arching lightning in a labratory. Very few people will see, hydroelectric generator, electric motor, wireless technology, microwave, radio control, sonar, fluorescent bulb, neon lights, speedometer plus other stuff that would cause most of you guys to have an aneurysm.
So it would be kind of hard to claim certain technology doesn't exist today that Tesla already had a handle on 80 years ago. You should do some research on him.... you'll really have a good laugh.
"Troy isn't the only one working on technology that can "see" through walls."
No doubt MANY people are working on technology that can see through walls? So what? That does not prove that Mr. Bear-proof Suit has actually come up with it. If he really has it, why doesn't he just demonstrate it? Seems simple enough.
"I refer your readers to the company Realtronics, in Hermosa, South Dakota. They also say they have developed or are developing something which can penetrate walls or the inside of mountain caves.
"Why don't you guys laugh at that company for a while?"
So there's another bunch of people who CLAIM to have a device that can see through walls. Again, so what? Why don't THEY just demonstrate their miraculous machine or process or whatever it is?
Several posters have brought up the notion of people having laughed at the Wright Brothers. Yes, I'm sure that happened, but you know what happened next? Wilbur and Orville actually FLEW their plane and the laughter stopped. Bearsuit Boy needs to demonstrate his magical machine. If it can do what he claims it can, the laughter will stop immediately. AND we will have a revolution in science.
People are entitled to laugh at those who make fantastic claims and who refuse to prove them.
There's no reason to take this "Angel light" nonsense seriously until such time as it is scientifically proven to work. Put up or shut up (or, as we say in the Bronx, shit or get off the pot.)
I saw the footage of the LIMBC armor. It is apparently lightweght and could be put on Humvees without the disadvantages of steel plating, So he is not in the realm of insane. The bear suit also technically works, so that is also not insane - impractical, maybe. The 'angel light' thing sounds unrealistic, but who can say. Maybe he stumbled on something interesting. I'm actually curious about the details of this thing. I'd like to see a breakdown of the device.
Also, the guy is not fall on the floor funny. And the people that are laughing must be easily amused. I'm glad there are some people actually out there making things as opposed to sitting on their butts all day on this website.
I am mostly skeptical - but not so closed minded as to be blind.
hey Jo, grizzly cubs are born during hibernation while the mother is denned up. troy should have invented a remote camera, but that's already been done. here's my take on troy and the grizzly suit:
while in the rockys, troy had a rare and understandably emotional encounter with a grizzly. it cuffed him to the ground. this gave him such a rush that he became fixated on repeating the experience. (think shark-cage). but how, without getting killed? many years and hours of work later he had completed his suit. but it is so cumbersome that one can hardly move in it. the only way it could be used to get close to a grizzly and repeat the near-death experience would be to have the wearer sit on the rotting carcass of a large animal in grizzly country and wait. unfortunatly that would constitue harrasment of wildlife and the authorities would be on him. troy could have pulled this stunt off undercover but then the world could never share in the fun (and troy is definatly into sharing the fun). stuck with a useless invention, he then had to come up with an after-the-fact purpose. thus the suit became a "bear research" suit. unfortunatly a bear-suit garbed researcher could hardly take 3 steps forward on a paved parking lot much less crawl into a grizzly hole and withdraw blood samples. god bless the man for following his dreams.
"Angel Light may or may not be possible - until we see proof, not one of us can say otherwise."
So far as science knows, it IS impossible. If in fact, Mr. Bear-proof Suit has come up with something that can see through solid objects, then all he has to do is DEMONSTRATE it, under controlled conditions. The fact that he hasn't and makes what seem to me like rather lame excuses for not doing so calls his "invention" into question.
As the "inventor" of a device that *appears* to defy the laws of physics, the ball is in his court, so to speak. If there is skepticism (and there is) he could dispel it with one decent demo of the machine. If he can change our understanding of our universe and he is being met with skepticism, it's his own fault. As I've said before, put up or shut up. No one should accept his word until they see the device in action.
http://www.baytoday.ca/content/news/gallery.asp?Page=3&c=6657&Title;=<b>Hurtubise+says+invention+sees+through+walls%2DBayToday%2Eca+exclusive<%2Fb>;
P.S. please also note
1 there is a drawing of a "hellfire robo-boot" and what looks like a "ratmobile" on a piece of paper to left of his right shoulder
2 there seems to be some kind of plastered up hole in the wall to the right of his left temple. This "mysterious" hole may just be the key to his new devices ability to "see through walls". The red wire may actually be some firepaste he had left over that he has decided for no apparent reason to incorporate into the design of the "angeloscope", but, guess what, it has helped what he calls the "centrifuge" to "see" through the "wall"
3 however it is "slightly" more probable that that this poor caveman, who has learnt to use tools, has been banging his head against the wall for a very long time trying to emulate the doc from his favourite movie trilogy (back to the future) in order to "kick" and "start" his "brain". The result is a hole a in the wall, which he has learnt to fill with plaster, with a red line coming out of it that he has drawn with something his MIT "contacts" have confirmed to him as a "crayon" (which represents the pain caveman felt while bashing his low forehead against that spot), a few silly pictures, and a haircut that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that this guy is incapable of having produced anything like what this articles' author thinks he might have.
Any of you monkeys doubting the complete and utter impossibility of this guy inventing anything worthwhile, let alone groundbreaking, please continue to disregard the scientific method and continue reading your horoscope/book of spells/colonic irrigation manual with your friendly ghost/alien/illuminatus...
As a working physicist, I applaud him.
We have a bear-proof suit, anti-ballistic armor, fire resistant paste and an electromagnetic terror beam that can see through concrete and apparently neutralize electric impulses... put them together and slap on a military grade strength enhancing exo-skelleton and you have something that can terrorize a city. It should be called the Grizzlor 9000. heh
These two should get together. They'd be unstoppable
http://www.adn.com/front/story/5972983p-5874205c.html
"Troy may have managed to fuse light, something way beyond the scope of comprehension of the average idiot lay person on this site.
"As a working physicist, I applaud him."
What a piss-poor scientist you must be (assuming that you are one at all, which I doubt).
Let's see--a guy makes an extraordinary claim about having invented a device which violates the known laws of physics and instead of demanding that he demonstrate it under controlled conditions, you insult those who question his claims. Interesting approach to science, "Doc."
I'll bet you're just astounded by David Blaine. Why, just today, I saw video of him taking an empty, semi-crushed beer can and "restoring" it and drinking out of it. It MUST be true!
Yes, I know there are websites owned by magic stores that claim to sell that very trick, but obviously they are idiot lay people who don't understand REAL magic when they see it! I mean, people never LIE about extraordinary things, do they?
Working on what? A perpetual motion machine?
"Hurtubise said he could see into the garage behind his lab wall, and read the licence plate on his wife's car and even see the salt on it.
"I almost broke my knuckles three or four times, because it was almost like you could step through the wall," Hurtubise said.
"You could be fooled into believing that you could actually walk through the wall and go touch the car." "
This sounds nothing like terahertz imaging or x-ray imaging. What it DOES sound like is fertelizer for gullible reporters to print.
Incidently, Mr. Novac, the writer of this article, probably doesn't even believe the claims himself, but wanted a good story. I wonder why people hold journalists in such low esteem?
Hurtubise "adds"
There's no "Hurtubise Demonstrates"
And there you have the fundamental flaw in the article.
I'm not saying that this gentleman is a crackpot. Quite the contrary. If we're attacked by a master race of space bears the Ursus MK VII will be a God-send. It's just that an inventor needs more than a shining self-endorsement to to be taken seriously by the scientific and commercial sector. One must remember that ambiguity is no way to allay suspicion of fraud.
But who knows, maybe he didn't demonstrate it's un-holy powers because it's too dangerous and may make his hand fall off this time.
Or maybe it's just a telescope that has a bunch of Flash Gordon-esqe doo-dads glued on it to make it look cool with a laser-pointer inside it.
Your call.
After all, in the history of humanity, no one has EVER lied about something that they hope will make them a lot of money. I mean, what could their motivation possibly be?? You're just...why, you're a SKEPTIC, that's what you are!
I'm not saying that there aren't hoaxes, but just because someone doesn't have an academic background doesn't mean that their inventions won't work. I heard this Hurtubise guy on coast to coast and while he did sound a little kooky, he freely admits that he doesn't understand the principles behind his inventions and has people with scientific background explain stuff to him.
He has been on the discovery channel, and unless they are doing a show on curiosities or hoaxes then I would think they would clearly check these things out and consider them worthy of at least showing.
As far as his Angel Light, I think that it is possible, although I too am kind of skeptical. He claims the french govt is buying his "Angel Light" and it does sound incredibly dangerous. If it does everything he says it does, then I hope it's not true because the implications for abuse by many governments of the world are staggering.
Oh, and I also have to add: just because a company doesn't have a slick website doesn't mean that it;s not a legitimate company.....
"Judging only by your posts, I have to say that SOME of you seem like assholes. The exact kind of assoles who, if you were alive prior to the 15th century in Europe would have laughed and guffawed when told someone had discovered that the world wasn't flat. "
And just FYI, a guy named Erotosthenes showed the earth was round about 1700 years before Columbus was born. Most sailors, all navigators, and any educated person alive in 1500 knew it too.
If you read the article carefully, you will note that there is not one single source of information regarding the invention that isn't the inventor. He makes a lot of claims about it working, yet there aren't any impartial witnesses to back him up. He claims the French government is interested in it, but did the reporter speak with any one in the French Govt.? Did the reporter even bother to drive out to see this thing work? No and no.
I don't know about you, but I think I'll play the odds on this one. Number of times I've seen inventions that defied the laws of physics = 0, number of liars I've met = MANY. Odds are, the guy's a liar.
1) "Judging only by your posts" - dont judge, and definetely not just from posts.
2)"The exact kind of assoles who, if you were alive prior to the 15th... blah blah" - My, my you must be very clever. Maybe you would also have been one of us asshole in the 15th century. In fact maybe you would have been king ahole and we would have all been great people. That sentence is pure bs, nonsense, just a set of words with no meaning, speculation, with no proof... only idiots think of things like that to say to try and prove to themselves they are clever (which you are not).
3)"I'm not saying that there aren't hoaxes, but just because someone doesn't have an academic background doesn't mean that their inventions won't work" - really? thanks for clearing that up for us assholes, we could never have even contemplated such a possibilty. All we are saying is that grizzly-chimp has not invented what the article says he claims he has.
4) "He has been on the discovery channel, and unless they are doing a show on curiosities or hoaxes then I would think they would clearly ..." you are right - YOU WOULD THINK. I'm sure you really would think that. Let me tell you - YOU THINK WRONG. You are ass-u-ming. You being the ming.
5) "I hope it's not true because the implications for abuse by many governments of the world are staggering". All I am gonna say about this is that the fact you would state that, says an awful lot about your intellect.
6) "Oh, and I also have to add: just because a company doesn't have a slick website doesn't mean that it;s not a legitimate company.." You must be some kind of genius.
You're a not genius... you're an asshole...
(1st vid on page)
http://patty.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=9/2/2003
Do I want to see the "Angel Light" in action? Of course - but I give him the benefit of the doubt simply because he doesn't seem like the type to make a false claim about something simply for the fact he seems so jazzed to actually demonstrate his stuff.
I happen to be a mechanical designer myself and I can see he wants you to know that something works beyond any doubt.
I'll tell you what, the grizzly suit may seem silly but he "literally" threw himself into that project and the punishment he took during the testing of that got my respect. It looks funny because it's a working PROTOTYPE. Everything looks ugly in the development stage, it's a normal progression.
He can barely walk in that thing they say (among other things). I'll tell you what, why don't YOU design a suit to completely protect yourself that will allow me to slam you into a brick wall with a front end loader or ram you with a truck or drop you off a cliff or crack you with a baseball bat or set you on fire without you getting hurt. If you can move off your original spot I'll give you $20,000.
Your first test:
"Clad in the Ursus Mark VI, Hurtubise was struck by a pendulum-suspended BMW for the Ripley's Believe or Not television program in August 2000." -Yeah but what good is it if it looks funny, right?
So if your using the "bear suit" to discredit the guy.....
Some of Troy's inventions involve stuff that companies have entire R&D departments for that spend millions of dollars and have years of development work in. Suddenly here comes a guy who says, "Hey, look what I invented in my garage. Not only does it defy the laws of physics, it only costs pennies to make!"
That doesn't sit well with companies, especially one's with huge government contracts. If Troy's x-ray machine turns out to be true, imagine what happens to devices like these and others like it. http://www.primidi.com/2004/07/02.html#a892 http://unisci.com/stories/20012/0416015.htm
Imagine gearing up for production of BREAKTHROUGH technology following years of development work that is already obsolete. It ends up creating more problems then it solves. Technology suppression is very real for good and not so good reasons when it ruins the structured order of progress. Think about it.
Here's another of Troy's inventions, is it hard to see why this wouldn't be made public?
http://www.improb.com/news/2002/jan/troy-bear3.html
If you want proof of what I'm saying, go do some research on Tesla and see what he was DOING and working on 100 years ago and you'll understand why today most people only know him as the guy who invented that "thingy" that makes lightning.
"I'm not saying that there aren't hoaxes, but just because someone doesn't have an academic background doesn't mean that their inventions won't work."
That is NOT the reason that we are saying that we don't believe him. We're saying it, as many of us have already articulated here, because he HASN'T DEMONSTRATED IT!!
Are you truly unfamiliar with the notion that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof? He is making an extraordinary claim--that he has invented a device that defies the known laws of physics and we are asking that he DEMONSTRATE proof of his claim before we accept it. Why do you--or anyone--have a problem with that?
If I were to say that I've invented a way for pigs to fly under their own power, would you automatically accept it despire not seeing ANY evidence for it being true? If not, why not? My claim is no more physics-defying than his.
mox said:
"I'm not saying that there aren't hoaxes, but just because someone doesn't have an academic background doesn't mean that their inventions won't work."
No, that in and of itself certainly does NOT prove that an invention doesn't work. It certainly does not prove that it DOES either, though. Know what WOULD prove (or disprove) it? A simple demonstration, under controlled conditions.
"I heard this Hurtubise guy on coast to coast and while he did sound a little kooky, he freely admits that he doesn't understand the principles behind his inventions and has people with scientific background explain stuff to him."
Am I wrong or isn't Coast To Coast one of those late-night UFO abductee shows? I spent many years in radio so perhaps I should know for sure, but I seem to remember that show as one of those Art Bell-type deals. Hardly the place for skeptical examination of extraordinary claims.
"He has been on the discovery channel, and unless they are doing a show on curiosities or hoaxes then I would think they would clearly check these things out and consider them worthy of at least showing."
Yeah, you might think that, but you'd be wrong. As has been extensively discussed on James Randi's website, randi.org, The Discovery Channel often runs shows that present "psychics" with little or no rebuttle from the skeptical side of the debate. While it also runs some informative programs, it is, ultimately, a venue for entertainment programming.
"Do I want to see the "Angel Light" in action? Of course - but I give him the benefit of the doubt simply because he doesn't seem like the type to make a false claim about something simply for the fact he seems so jazzed to actually demonstrate his stuff."
And Enron was the sixth-largest company in America. They couldn't possibly have been involved in fraud like having a fake "selling floor" intended to make potential investors think that everything was going well. Nope, not possible. Appearances are never deceiving, you know.
"I happen to be a mechanical designer myself and I can see he wants you to know that something works beyond any doubt."
Explain to me then, please, why he doesn't simply demonstrate that the thing works? Wouldn't that be the best possible way to prove his claims? When you design a device, don't you eventually build it so that you can PROVE that it works? Why doesn't he?
"Some of Troy's inventions involve stuff that companies have entire R&D departments for that spend millions of dollars and have years of development work in. Suddenly here comes a guy who says, "Hey, look what I invented in my garage. Not only does it defy the laws of physics, it only costs pennies to make!"
That might be true IF the thing actually works. If YOU had invented a machine that defied the known laws of physics, wouldn't YOU want to prove that you had done that? I sure would, if only to show the world what a genius I was. If he has no intention of ever demonstrating the device, why did he bother to tell a REPORTER about it?
"That doesn't sit well with companies, especially one's with huge government contracts. If Troy's x-ray machine turns out to be true, imagine what happens to devices like these and others like it.
Yes, and the amazing anti-gravity machine that I have sitting out in my yard will put all the airlines of the world out of business. Now all I have to do is actually MAKE IT WORK. Gee, it's fun to imagine things, isn't it?
Why can't you let people discuss it? Not only must you insist it is bullshit, you deny anyone else the ability to consider it. What nerve you have to interrupt other people conversing.
I understand that people will not believe it until they see a demonstration, who would? But why are you all so hostile and unbelieveably rude? This is unprecedented - you are the rudest bunch of doubters I have ever seen. It just makes me cringe, that anyone could think or write the things you say.
You made your point, you don't believe it, and you want proof. 1 sentence. Why are you still here posting? For the love of god go away! Some people actually want to learn and better themselves through intelligent discussion, you have no right to interfere with that, so be polite or fuck off!
http://www.improb.com/news/2002/jan/troy-bear3.html<<; :lol:
I hadn't seen this one yet. Add "Fire Suppressant Agent 333," the amazing sand/oil separater, to the list!
Score a hat trick for Troy; this is the third semi-credible news source he's slipped into. He and Phil and TDC sure have the formula down:
1. A claim that the world could be better off if only Troy's amazing "invention" was utilized,
often coupled with Troy's "anger" over this oversight and the revelation that he wants his
"invention" to protect someone intensely close to him.
2. A bunch of unsubstantiated claims by Troy and/or the "reporter" regarding the "invention."
3. A logically/semantically neutral statement by an authoritative (or not so authoritative) voice
that says Troy's "invention" *would* be amazing *if* it worked.
4. If the invention is liquid: the revelation that the "secret ingredient" is Diet Coke.
5. A bunch of unsubstantiated claims concerning powerful people purported to have an interest.
6. Wild speculation about the "invention's" possibilities.
I'd like to emphasize that though I do regard Troy H. as a source of entertainment and not of
scientific endeavor or inventions, I don't feel any animosity towards towards him for his
"inventing" or for his hilarious attempts to market his stuff.
However, irresponsible journalisn is another matter. Phil Novak, TDC, BayToday and The Nugget
ought to be ashamed.
That being said, I think the funniest part about this whole thing is that stories about Troy's
"inventions" ACTUALLY GET PUBLISHED!!! :lol:
FYI. Phil defending Troy:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/tuber/1935/#54753
I hereby nominate Phil for a P-U-litzer prize for investigative reporting!
So heres my two penneth (for what it's worth)
I think the general consensus that this is some sort of hoax is spot on, all the references to 'they laughed at edison' etc seems to have missed the point that in the 1800's there were no multi national companies spending billions of dollars on research and development, only amateur regular people experimenting with electro magnetism, heavier than air flight etc so I would suppose all of the innovations pre WWII were of this nature HOWEVER - post WWII governments in general (and by that I mean US and Soviet) have poured trillions of dollars into finding new ways of killing people. Remember remote viewing? Goat staring? So how come they haven't found this magic see through machine? Or at least the principle behind it. It is virtually impossible to imagine someone like Charles Babbage inventing the Mechanical Adding Machine (fore runner of the computer) in this day and age. You want cutting edge technology, look at the US Air force or NASA, not some hick who makes magic paste out of diet coke.
"You know what? Nobody ever said they believed this. People said "That sounds interesting, let's discuss it."
Well, I guess that's why they call you "Lucky" rather than "Observant." Go back and check the posts if you seriously believe that no one has said that they believe in the device. I've quoted directly from posts that said just that several times now. I guess you just somehow managed to miss both the original postings AND my posts which directly quoted from them. Oops.
"Why can't you let people discuss it? Not only must you insist it is bullshit, you deny anyone else the ability to consider it. What nerve you have to interrupt other people conversing."
In what way am I, or anyone else for that matter, denying anyone the ability to discuss this matter? Please be specific. How can you "interrupt" people from conversing on a bulletin board?
"You made your point, you don't believe it, and you want proof. 1 sentence. Why are you still here posting? For the love of god go away! Some people actually want to learn and better themselves through intelligent discussion, you have no right to interfere with that, so be polite or fuck off!"
Well, if you're being silly, congratulations! If not, you have obviously contradicted yourself with your last remark. For the record, I believe that pointing out that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof IS contributing to intelligent discussion--as opposed to stupidity like people saying that even though there is NO evidence that this stupid "machine" can see through walls and the "inventor" refuses to provide such evidence, they believe in it anyway. Now THAT'S dumb!
When and if Hurtubise claims that he can fly under his own power (with the aid of Diet Coke, no doubt) will that, too, be reported without any requirement for proof of performance?
Maybe the guy's just a wacky conceptual artist and he's pulling our collective leg. In that case, I congratuate him and anxious await the press conference in which he reveals what he's been doing and shames the press in the process.
Your argument that governments would use it if it worked are sort of false. Mitchell ruined a fine navy Career because he believed that Naval Aviation was the way of the future. Enrico Fermi tried to explain the significance of nuclear fission, and was laughed away as a 'crazy WOP'.
Besides, the article does claim that the French govt did witness a demonstration and are interested.😊 Lol, I admit that without any corroborating evidence it's not to be believed.
You saw how rude and personally insulting people on this board became, to a person they never met! If one of these rude people works at the DOD and takes the phone call from this Troy person, they will not follow up on it, and they will put him on the 'crazy black-list' of people who's phone calls should be ignored in the future.
On this board the majority of posters are of the Rude and Angry ilk, but I don't know if that percentage is relevant in the real world. What is known is that military establishments are conservative, and resist new technologies by nature.
"Your argument that governments would use it if it worked are sort of false. Mitchell ruined a fine navy Career because he believed that Naval Aviation was the way of the future. Enrico Fermi tried to explain the significance of nuclear fission, and was laughed away as a 'crazy WOP'."
You are aware, are you not, Lucky, that governments all over the world use Naval Aviation and nuclear fission?
You may be correct that they weren't adopted immediately, but they ARE in use (and have been for decades now), so your "point" seems to be at least semi-moot at this point in history.
Getting past that, your argument seems to be a variation on "They laughed at the Wright Brothers" which has been made before.
As I pointed out at the time (go back and check), people STOPPED laughing at Orville and Wilbur when they actually FLEW THEIR PLANE. Claims prove precisely nothing; demonstrations under scientifically controlled conditions prove (or disprove) all. All we have from Hurtubise so far are claims.
Please explain, using logic if possible, why you are willing to believe the unproven claims of a man who says he has broken the known laws of physics (and who seems unwilling to back up those claims).
Secondly, the story about Fermi is not so accurate, either. The US was already developing the Bomb when an uninformed and ignorant army officer made that assesment about the physicist. At that time, Fermi had already made a working reactor and demonstrated it to MANY other scientests, none of whome felt the need to "rewrite the laws of physics" after seeing it.
Thirdly, military establishments may be conservative, but all of the cutting edge technology that has been developed since the second world war was developed as a result of military spending. Nuclear power, advanced electronics, and avaition. Having worked on classified projects for defense contractors, I can tell you that the military is VERY interested in new ideas. I've worked on a few, and none of them "defied the known laws of physics".
And finally, many of the rude people on this list are Hurtibise BELIEVERS, not just the sceptics
I hear the French Army is very interested so that they can look through the walls of their hidey holes and see who they are surrending to.
It is made from a revolutionary fire proof paste made only from SAND, that can also miraculously prevent water from passing through it yet allows all light through. I call it GLASS.
I have also invented a substance that makes OIL float to the top of water. I call it 'relative density'.
Any gullible reporters looking for a new story are more than welcome to contact me and bring envelopes full of shiny pound coins.
...Ooooorrrrrrr we could CONSIDER the possibility that they did what they clam, and possibly discuss the physics which might apply, maybe specuiate and have fun with it, and possibly learn a thing or two while we are at it.
What bothers me is that no educated and informed people are going to post here because it is just a bunch of kids who learned a few dirty words and like to use them. Thanks to them anyone who possibly would have posted substantial and interesting information won't bother with this sand-box.
Good point about Mitchell being in Army not Navy, my mistake and poor memory.
-Cranky and Matzus:
I think we are arguing the wrong thing. I don't want to argue whether we should believe this guy's claims, I admit over and over that no-one has to, or has much reason to. I post examples of 'fringe' science that were not accepted, solely to stimulate you to open your minds to *Consider* new possibilities. People debate Star Trek for Christ's sake, they know it's fake but they debate it! People write essays and critiques on all sorts of fiction, why can people not discuss this article which claims to be real? Why???
Unfortunately there is no point looking here for information or entertainment anymore, what scientist would waste their time. Any person who posts even speculation of how the machine MAY operate meets multiple replies that it cannot exist and cannot operate. This KILLS open discussion, it is unjust cencorship to serve the pusposes of your dogma. Furthermore I suspect it strokes your ego.
It seemed obvious to me (and I don't think I was alone) that this subject was unprovable. It, by nature, could not be proven true or false. If it is true then he sold it to France and won't disclose anything. If it's false he won't disclose anything because it is false.
What you fail to understand is that one can discuss something despite it not being provable. Well, it is possible, but not here, because you shout down anyone who tries.
Thanks for that. Maybe you should go to a bible-study website where they are debating the meaning of a passage, and shout them down, because they can't prove the passage ever happened.
But wait a moment here, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. lets look at a couple of things carefully.
Firepaste, does it do what it is supposed to do?. Yes and no. I don't think for a moment that given this guys money problems that any respected fire retardant/proofing comapany thowing a wad of money his way would have been turned down. The problem is , I belive they have allready looked at it and decided they probly have somthing better allready availble with less cost to manufacture. Plus there is the fact we don't know about the bromine in the stuff, does it break down? If you sprayed this stuff on the side of a house and washed it off, Oh yess, you saved the house but now the water table is poisoned with bromine.
Not good.
The blastproof bags .. Yes they work , and NO they wont be used in Iraq or anywhere else. WHY? well at 300.00 a pop they will never be used. this is old technology. and yes I could build the exact same thing (mabey better) for about the same sort of money. But if the millitary was so interested in saving lives they would have been willing to spend the few dollars per humvee for plain ol steel plates and doors. And outfit every soldier with class three body armor with ceramic rifle plates .. But no , they don't I just had to go out and buy EXACTLY that for a friend who was shipped of in Dec to Iraq. They just dont have the body armor they should , and you expect the millitary to shell out wads of cash for bags that dont cover the whole door or window? give me a break.
Support our troops, Hell yes, fug the little fuggin ribbons and magnetic flags and shat. buy BODYARMOR , the dirty little secret is that even now , when the millitary was supposed have body armor for every soldier in the theater by nov 04 is a LIE , talk to soldiers , talk to the national guard and reservists and you will have a REAL fuggin story of lives lost for a war on the cheap.
This is bullshat
Lucky, I agree that we kill off things without giving them the proper consideration and that is wrong, but I know from experience that everyone who hears for the first time about a death ray or an anti gravity machine or whatever goes 'cool!' and then when it turns out to be an industrial laser that can cook and egg in twelve minutes but can be deflected by a mirror, or super conductors that have magical properties for fractions of a second or whatever it upsets people - it upsets me, I want it to be true and it turns out to be some backwater publicity stunt.
you give me one example of an amateur scientist discovering something new in physics or chemistry in the last twenty years? - I bet you'll be hard pressed. The reason why, I think is that all these private companies, governments and the military spend alot of money on R&D?
So yes, this guy is a publicity hunter and I think that is why people get cross.
As to the physics behind the claims, you are looking at some pretty hefty violations of energy laws at quantum levels - cutting edge stuff from the bear suit/ fire paste / diet coke guy.
I believe that in order to get new directions in science you need to overthrow old laws - look at Newton and gravity - good guess, but wrong and it took 250 years to find that out.
David, I was discussing the armour sitation with some other people, and they felt everyone had interceptors. Could you point me to a link I could show them? As for armouring the HMMWVs, a Marine mentioned that the officers who never leave the base cruise walking distances in the up-armoured vehicles, while the patrols get what's left.
"Cranky - How many people witnessed the flight? I'm 500 miles away and I 'hear' or 'read' that they flew and I'm supposed to believe it? Well obviously the fucking ugly barbarian lunk heads with blood trickling from their hollow skulls where they smash their heads against walls are lieing, and I won't believe it until they come to my house and knock on my door and prove they flew, and I know a magician who can do the same thing because it's a trick."
Duh, what was I thinking? Yes, I totally forgot that there is NO evidence that planes can fly! In the year 2005, do you honestly believe that there is no way to demonstrate that airplanes can FLY??? By the way, please show me a magician, ANY magician, who can convincingly simulate a plane flying at 25,000 feet. What, exactly, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??
"...Ooooorrrrrrr we could CONSIDER the possibility that they did what they clam, and possibly discuss the physics which might apply, maybe specuiate and have fun with it, and possibly learn a thing or two while we are at it."
Well, that's KIND of what we ARE doing here. What bothers me is people (and there have been several here, despite your previous claim that there weren't) who totally and uncritically accept Hurtubise's claim of having changed the laws of physics without the slightest shred of evidence. Speculate all you want, but until and unless Mr. Bear-proof Suit produces actual EVIDENCE that his machine can see through walls, all the speculation amounts to mental masturbation.
"People debate Star Trek for Christ's sake, they know it's fake but they debate it! People write essays and critiques on all sorts of fiction, why can people not discuss this article which claims to be real? Why???"
The salient point in that last paragraph is, "they know it's fake." People KNOW Star Trek is a work of fiction and discuss it in that light. Show me someone who thinks that "transporters" really exist and I'll show you a moron. Until evidence is produced, "Angel Light" is also from the World O' Fiction. The difference is that Hurtubise claims that it's REAL while Gene Roddenberry never made such a claim for the Enterprise, Vulcans or dilithium. See the difference?
"Unfortunately there is no point looking here for information or entertainment anymore, what scientist would waste their time."
I find it hard to follow your point here. Since the burden of proving the reality of the machine is completely on Hurtubise's shoulders, what COULD a scientist get from this discussion other than learning that a guy in Canada is making a wild claim? No one here can possibly prove that this thing works.
CONTINUED
"Any person who posts even speculation of how the machine MAY operate meets multiple replies that it cannot exist and cannot operate."
Anyone posting speculation about how the machine MIGHT work is engaging in fantasy. Yes, that's entertaining, but it proves precisely nothing. Why don't we talk about how porcine aviation MIGHT work?
"This KILLS open discussion, it is unjust cencorship to serve the pusposes of your dogma. Furthermore I suspect it strokes your ego."
Where is the "censorship?" How is discussing this subject "killing" anything? What bothers you, I suspect, is that I am not willing to engage in the mental masturbation of fantasizing about how the machine MIGHT work. The bottom line, as I have pointed out before, is simple: HURTUBISE NEEDS TO PROVE THAT IT WORKS! Period. Any discussion of how the thing "might" work is a waste of time. Either it does or it doesn't.
"Thanks for that. Maybe you should go to a bible-study website where they are debating the meaning of a passage, and shout them down, because they can't prove the passage ever happened."
I debate religious people all the time. I don't "shout them down" and I've learned that true believers aren't ever going to be swayed by something as Earth-bound as FACTS, but it's fun anyway.
Something you might consider: it's the person who makes an assertion (like the notion that Hurtubise's machine might actually work) who has the burden of proof. One cannot prove a negative.
Just to throw you a curveball - you do realize that this is a false statement. It is, in fact, very possible to prove a negative. I can prove, for example, that I am not currently sitting in a bar in San Diego having a drink with Alex.
With regards to the rest, I gather that what Lucky wants to discuss are new theories of science that can be used to explain this invention. I don't believe that this is quite the place for it.
This invention is extremely likely to be a hoax. Modern physics supports this. Others may disagree. Fine. But this isn't the place to have involved theoretical discussions involving new physical laws or "mystical" energy sources to try and rationalize a way for this device to be real. There are far too many websites devoted to this sort of bad science already. If you can come up with a way for this to work without changing the laws of physics, great. Otherwise, try and remember that this is not, in fact, a website for the greatest theoretical physicists of our time to hash out new ideas. Most of us aren't string theorists and can't argue intelligently about the fundamentals involved here. However, it doesn't take a genius so recognize something as likely being a hoax. Just a healthy level of skepticism and lots of experience. We come here because these sorts of things interest us and we like discussing them and even making fun of the more outlandish ones such as this. We're not terribly highbrow around here.
If you want someone to blow your mind with far more information that you can possibly understand or digest then I suggest you try posting to the straightdope forum. I'll warn you, though. They won't be anywhere near as polite.
"Just to throw you a curveball - you do realize that this is a false statement. It is, in fact, very possible to prove a negative. I can prove, for example, that I am not currently sitting in a bar in San Diego having a drink with Alex."
Well, you probably couldn't prove that to an absolute certainty, but that's beyond hair-splitting (besides, I'm kidding).
What I probably SHOULD have said is that it's impossible to absolutely prove that something doesn't exist. If you claimed that there were flying monkeys on the dark side of the moon and I went to investigate and reported back that I couldn't find any, you could always say that they were hiding and I just didn't find the hiding spot. You get my point, I'm sure.
Hurtubise is working a variation of this scam.
"So, where's that see-through-walls thingie, Mr. Hurtubise?"
"Oh, the French won't let me show it to anyone yet."
OR:
"It isn't working at the moment, but I'll have it fixed REAL soon."
OR:
"It doesn't work if there's a skeptic in the room." (an excuse used by many a "psychic")
And so on and so on.
He has re-assembled the Angel Light! but still hasn't worked out the "Hyde" effect. His latest grandoise claim is that the machine will destroy pollution. i wish i had taped the news clip and could give an exact quote but the example he gave had something to do with destroying methane with the contraption. The interesing aspect of the interview from my point of view was his reference to "His guidance" or something of that sort. The inference was that Troy is creating under some divine guidance, that thru his dreams a Higher_Power is guiding his hands. He also claimed that his machine could save "millions of lives". I suppose thru the anti-pollution application. Now lets recall that his oil-sand separation process would end the world oil crisis by unlocking the oil in the Alberta oil sands and U.S. oil shale at rock bottom prices. And that the fire-retardant he invented would have saved the world trade centres during 9-11.
I know nothing of theoretical physics so i don't comment on that. But i believe the progressivly messianic quality to Troy's claims reflect an alarming detachment from reality. The man who grizzly-proofed north america was an obsesive EXCENTRIC. The man who built the Angel Light is a CRACKED POT. And cracked pots do not hold water.
Here's an interesting article about different flavors of "documentaries" and how they vary in factual content, including a reference to a scene in our man's bear-suit "documentary":
http://www.ryerson.ca/rrj/archives/1999/anspr.html
Here's some great pot-calling-the-kettle-black commentary from BayToday:
http://www.baytoday.ca/content/editorials/recent.asp?w=3