I got an email from Enio asking me:
I would like to know your opinion about Masaru Emoto's "Crystal Water Photos".
First, some background. Masaru Emoto's book
The Hidden Messages in Water is currently #66 in sales rank on Amazon. That means A LOT of people are buying it. Here's the blurb from the cover that pretty much explains what Masaru Emoto and his crystal water photos are all about:
The Hidden Messages in Water is an eye-opening theory showing how water is deeply connected to people's individual and collective consciousness. Drawing from his own research, scientific researcher, healer, and popular lecturer Dr. Masaru Emoto describes the ability of water to absorb, hold, and even retransmit human feelings and emotions. Using high-speed photography, he found that crystals formed in frozen water reveal changes when specific, concentrated thoughts are directed toward it. Music, visual images, words written on paper, and photographs also have an impact on the crystal structure. Emoto theorizes that since water has the ability to receive a wide range of frequencies, it can also reflect the universe in this manner. He found that water from clear springs and water exposed to loving words shows brilliant, complex, and colorful snowflake patterns, while polluted water and water exposed to negative thoughts forms incomplete, asymmetrical patterns with dull colors. Emoto believes that since people are 70 percent water, and the Earth is 70 percent water, we can heal our planet and ourselves by consciously expressing love and goodwill.
What do I think of this theory? Well, at the risk of giving off a lot of negative energy that's going to make a whole bunch of water crystals get all bent out of shape, I think it's complete baloney. But then, I'm not very 'open minded' about things like this. So I would think that.
(but I have to add: since when has the earth been 70 percent water? Do they mean the surface of the earth? That might make sense. But the earth itself ain't 70 percent water)
Comments
Uhm, the atom model says atoms and like balls. And Quantum mechanics says it's loads more complex then this (days it's wrong).
I believe this is more Einstein than Chopra:-)
Actually, your weak analogy equips me with a far better one - what you are claiming is much akin to saying that because relativity and quantum mechanics show that Newtonian gravitational theory was incomplete, it was therefore wrong. 'Incomplete' is far from 'wrong' - this is a common fallacy often favoured by anti-evolution types and other cranks.
Quantum mechanics deals with activity at the subatomic level, not the molecular levels which is where Emoto claims his effects are observable. Our understanding of atomic behaviour is such that we can (for example) manipulate the genome - something which both depends on and verifies the correctness of our model of molecular physics.
"incomplete is far from wrong".
But the obsolete atom-model might work to manipulate the genome, but it's not a 'correct' model of reality.
being lazy i quote wikipedia:
The Bohr model is not a complete model of the atom, and fails to explain many of the finer structures seen in atoms. As a theory, it has been replaced by quantum mechanics, and thus may be considered to be an obsolete scientific theory. However, because of its simplicity, the Bohr model is still commonly taught to introduce students to quantum mechanics.
did I miss your strong analogy by the way?
What's more, this is all rather irrelevant, since there is nothing about quantum theories, either, that is consistent with Emoto's DreamworldTM 'physics' - and I know of no model, obsolete or otherwise, that offers any mechanism for molecules to be able to read in any language.
😊
This offering SPECIFICALLY TO EMOTO on the topic of his water crystal claims has now been public for several years.
This single issue is what led me to be involved with the Skeptics Society, etc. What for some is just a topic of conversation, for me was a life changing paradigm shift.
Two years later, only rebuttals I see are constant logical fallacies and magical thinking. If Emoto's camp has something to bring to the table, then bring it.
So Emoto's story is most probably a hoax (I do think) ...:-(
I still do think mind/thought changes water; by intuition 😊
And migth Emoto be almost as wrong in 'real' explanation as our current atom model ..!?
(ok, Bohr's model is damn old..)
>since there is nothing about quantum theories,
>either, that is consistent with Emoto's
>DreamworldTM 'physics'
I am thinking about 'reality being changed by our minds on all kind of quantum-like levels', as in not being able to just be just an observer in reality. In my dreams its DreamworldTM :p
Bye!
Was this deliberately ironic?
Anyway, who here is showing intolerance for anyone's beliefs? Arresting you, are we? Oppressing you? Nah, saying rubbish is rubbish isn't intolerance - tolerance and respect are not the same thing, you know:)
I suspect what you dislike is having people rubbisah your beliefs - and such nonsensical claims that we should have respect for other people's beliefs stick crossways in my craw. Of course people have a right to hold their own beliefs (it's your head; if you want to fill it up with rubbish that's your affair); there's no obligaton on people to respect 'em, though. As I said, rubbish's rubbish.
Furthermore, respect is something to be earned: if this book is so worthy of attention, why not spend an hour or so scanning it and stick it up on the web? I see it's a pretty slim volume - at 160 pages it'd take just 80 scans, so it wouldn't be that big a chore. I'm sure as dammit not going to put money in this guy's pocket.
"I don't know how much longer I can put up with all of this intolerance of other peoples' beliefs. I am currently reading "the Hidden Messages of water" and it's actually pretty interesting. If you are a sceptic, you should really read it for its philosophical issues assuming you don't care to understand the scientific basis. I love you all."
Well, golly, I love you, too, Betty. You may not have read any of the thread here on the Museum site about LifeWave patches but on it I asked a person who has been defending LifeWave to test my new mind-enhancing product by jumping out a high window. You see, my product allows me to protect anyone I am thinking about from harm.
I extend my challenge to you, Betty. I challenge you to jump out of a high window. Fear not, my amazing product will allow me to protect you from injury or death. You aren't intolerant of my unshakable belief in my product, are you? Of course not, so when can I expect you to take the Big Leap? I need to know in advance so I can be thinking about you when you jump.
My belief that this cannot fail is based on my own philosophy. If you refuse to take me up on this, you will be demonstrating your own intolerance.
"With statementes like "Those "predetermined beliefs" are called SCIENCE. We believe in it/them because they are the best system by which humans can understand the world around us that anyone has yet devised. If you have a better one, please tell us about it so that mankind can benefit." You sound like some Bible beating Christians I know."
No one here thinks that science is a religion, Greg.
Let me explain the difference. Religion requires that you take things on faith, even though they cannot be proven. Science, on the other hand, constantly tests what it proposes. When it is able to successfully challenge a theory, it UPDATES ITSELF. This is a fundamental difference, not a trivial one. Religion tends to stay "stuck in amber," so to speak, precisely because it does NOT test its assertions.
Perhaps I should start with what 'science' is. Science is not - whatever you think - a belief system: if it is anything it is a methodology, and an approch to the world. A scientific approach involves a number of basic steps:
a) looking at observable data and searching for a falisifiable hypothesis to explain that data. When a hypothesis is 'falsifiable' means that it is possible to disprove it - one consequence of this is that by definition the scientific method excludes supernatural explanations as these are not falsifiable. Why not? Well, take this reasoning: if there is a God we cannot know that he is not directly interfering with experiments - in the recent study of the efficacy of prayer, for example, we cannot know that God was not deliberately opting to refuse the scientists conducting the research any clear proof of His existence because proof denies faith.
b) making testable predictions based on the hypothesis and testing those predictions.
c) rinse and repeat: scientific hypotheses that stand up to experimental testing are called 'theories'. Theories are never 'proven' - a theory which accurately describes the world remains a 'theory', no matter how true it may be. And yes, theories get overturned and updated all the time.
The theory of evolution is one such theory; Darwin developed a hypothesis in the 19th century, which he and others subjecte to rigorous testing. With time, however, further scientific advances have been made (again through the scientific method rather than through revelation!) and the initial basis - Darwin's theory of natural selection - has been greatly expanded. This is one reason why those of us who know anything abot evolution hate the abuse of the term 'Darwinism' or 'Darwinian evolution' - it seems to imply that evolutionary theory as it now stands has come no further than Darwin's morphological observations.
This comment has gone on quite ong enough, though, and I can't hope to even begin to remedy your lack of knowledge of science here. However, if you are really interested is learning how evolution can explain complexity I'm willing to try and discuss it by email: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address). I stress, though, that I'm merely an interested layman studying the subject for pleasure rather than actually being a working scientist in any discipline!
Greg, I hear what you're saying (I think). However:
- Your post betrays a mistrust of science and scientists which is quite alarming - as well as a tendency to lump different scientific debates and issues together as though they are one. This latter is very worrying: the question of whether or mot Merck scientists were entirely forthright in the issue of side effects from Rofecoxib is unrelated to the question of any health impacts of GM foods, and both are wholly unrelated to veracity of evolution.
- Science is a methodology, and is the best one we have; scientists are people, and as such make mistakes (though one beautiful thing about he scientific process is that these are self-correcting in the long run*); and pharmaceutical companies are businesses. Yes, its obvious - but you are using the example of Vioxx to smear science itself. (Oh, and fwiw in this case it was Merck who withdrew the drug, suggesting that even if errors of judgement were made the company had sufficient integrity to back down in the face of the evidence in the end - though how far that was to avoid litigation is hard to know).
- Scientific knowledge can, in the main, be trusted: experiments can be flawed, even faked, and interpretations can be wrong, but ultimately when we say 'ok, show us the money' the data there for us to see. Say we hear of something that really boggles the mind - identifying the sequences of genes, for example. We can say 'oh yeah? Prove it!' and scientists can actually show us how they sequence genes (you want any textbooks?).
- As to how evolution is taught: evolution is a theory; there is also no evidence whatsoever to suggest that it is wrong. With evolution, it's a question of ever-increasing understanding of mechanisms - there simply is no valid alternative theory (bearing in mind the definition of theory above).
Creation? OK: sure God (or some other 'intelligent designer') may have created life which behaves exactly as though it had evolved and a world which behaves as though it were entirely naturalistic. However, as a hypothesis this cannot be tested, and in terms of testable predictions (or anything practical, actuially) it is valueless: as such, it is not valid science.
How would you want evolution taught? Would you have meteorology taught the same way (intelligent weatherworkers)? Astronomy? Physics? We teach the most robust theories in science as fact because they describe the world as it really is.
*By 'self-correcting' I mean that the processes of peer review and peer testing mean that errors made by individual scientists tend not to last: indeed, your own example of Rofecoxib is pertinent here - is was scientists who identified the risks, through clinical studies (notably the VIGOR study) which made use of the scientific method.
OK, I've just seen your newest post. Yikes.
First, I agree that there are ethical issues (currently being explored) in the areas of genetics and bioengineering. However, you're spouting a combination of conspiracy wackiness, urban myth, misrepresented fact, and the odd kernel of accuracy in there too.
Are the big GM corporations unethical? Almost certainly they are not more so than any other large corporation (take an anticapitalist stance if you like: don't pretend that's about the science, though). Yes, Monsanto among others forbid those who use their improved crops from keeping seed reserves. They are doing so for an economic reason, of course: it costs literally billions to develop such crops and they need a return on that. But think about it - firstly, if repurchasing an improved (pest-resistant, say) wheat every year provesless economical than farming a normal wheat and reserving a seed crop, farmers simply will not buy it; standard wheat will still be available. Secondly, by allowing a more efficient use of farmland per-acre yields will rise, slowing the continuing destruction of fallow land. (Note: though terminator gene technology is being explored it has not been used in any commercial crop; additionally, one of the principal reasons for exploring terminator genes is fos environmental protection - if the crop is infertile the risk of viable crossbreeds ('superweeds') becomes negligible.)
As to lawsuits against organic farmers who are corrupting the genetics of GMO crops, I've never heard of such a thing. There was a lawsuit against a farmer called Schmeiser, who was accused of stealing Roundup-ready seed but who claimed the seed was spilled and accidentally grew on his land. In that case, however, the facts (as the court found them) were somewhat different: some Roundup-ready seeds were accidentally spilled on his property, so he sprayed 'a good three acres' of his non-GM fields with Roundup to isolate the Roundup-ready crops to use. That's theft.
Finally, patentability: in Europe at least the rules are quite strict (if maybe not a strict as they could be). However, you cannot patent plant or animal varieties. Details here - must rush, do the research yourself.
Cheers.
Didn't really think it was you, CMG... As to you (not) posting on this thread, if you didn't post the comment 7 or so posts up then someone is appropriating your moniker.
Anyway, to get on to more serious topics: why are we all talking in italics?
Greg, I am not making a passionate defense of either Monsanto or Merck, though it's true that I doubt they're as evil as you paint them. My 'defense' of Monsanto is simply an observation that in the specific instances cited the rumours are unsubstatiated; I daresay that, as with all large corporations, there are plenty of morally questionable activities: but this is in danger of turning into a poltical debate, since the issues here turn on the interplay between market forces and regulation...
Big pharma, certainly, does far more good than harm: without medical research on a scale that only big pharma is willing and able to fund we (that is, the human race) would be pretty fucked, frankly. It would be great to have that research funded by governments instead, of course, but they're rarely even willing to fund basic medical care let alone basic research:)
FWIW, I've no qualms about the healthiness of GM food and assume that I eat it all the time. I have yet to see or hear of any evidence of any health risks to GM foods, and in the absence of such see no reason not to trust it; what I know about genetics, too, makes me think there is little reason to expect so-called 'frankenfoods' to be unhealthy. I have my own concerns over GM crops, but these pertain to their potential environmental impact. Even here, though, I think that with proper regulation there is no cause for alarm. Again, ths brings the issue back into politics...
I'll add that any negative impacts of commercial research in terms of marketable products and market practices do not negate the value of the pure knowledge gained along the way. A corrupt source need not imply corrupted knowledge: and it is that knowledge we must master and teach to our children. This is in part for its own sake, and in part so we and they can spot when we're being hawked nonsense by charletans - from Ken Ham to Masaru Emoto.
"Didn't really think it was you, CMG... As to you (not) posting on this thread, if you didn't post the comment 7 or so posts up then someone is appropriating your moniker."
Gee, it would probably help if I either could remember what the hell I wrote here or just checked before I said I didn't write anything, huh?
"Hi All, Please tell me if this makes any sense: that everything from objects to thought is a pattern."
Well, maybe. The thing is, though, that even if everything IS a pattern, it isn't necessarily a pattern that we're designed to recognize.
Just as a quick example off the top of my head, we can see light, right? We can't see all forms of light, though, like high-frequency ultraviolet. We're just not set up to perceive it.
Nor can we feel, see, hear or taste X-rays or radio waves. We ARE able, however, to prove that those things exist by the fact that we can utilize them. Believers tend to use the fact that there are things we can't perceive via our senses alone to "prove" that the thing(s) they espouse exist.
It don't work that way. If and when it can be proved, via demonstrable and repeatable means that water contains "messages," then it will become an accepted part of science and not before then. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen, though.
PS:please have a sense of humor, hee hee, science is only scratching the surface, and EVERYTHING is a theory. Some of us are not trying to push merchandise, just playin with Ideas, which is where it all starts. 😊 LUV'N'HUGS!
Yet I think a few unambiguous observations are in order:
1) thoughts and emotions in the brain are at the very least a product of localized, dynamic chemical events within a complex neural strucure
2) all dynamic chemical events, such as those within the brain giving rise to thoughts and emotions, involve energetic movements of particles (i.e. neurotransmitters, molecules, atoms, etc.)
4) While quantum-mechanical phenomena may be most significant at dimensions much smaller than the dimensions of a neuron, that does not render their effects nil at a larger scale...extremely small or insignificant does not mean zero. They can be assumed to be zero for the sake of calculations--and those calculations can lead to meaningful and accurate results with tangible applications--but they are not ACTUALLY zero.
5) Many distinctions in the world are a product of extremely small relative differences (e.g. a single gene differing by a few amino acids among thousands of other genes; a surface of the earth itself (the biosphere, crust, and atmosphere) which represents an incredibly small percentage of the earth's volume, yet is imperative for life; perhaps even at the big bang itself the slightest nuances in which the explosion unfolded led to the destinct unique evolution of the universe which permitted the earth to form the way it did)
6) following point #3, a distant star, or the thoughts of a person across from you (both being the products of dynamic systems of moving particles), literally do have effects on each individual and on each individual's thoughts -- it's just that the effects are extremely small, and presumably irrelevant, to other forces (such as the north wind, or the guy next to you pushing you on the bus, or this sentence you're reading).
7) So even in classical physics, the most ardent skeptic must admit that a person's thoughts have a physical effect -- through gravity among other forces -- on all other matter in the universe, including the thoughts of each other individual. And one has to admit that there ARE quantum mechanical events at the cellular level, and even at the interpersonal level, and at the scale of the whole universe -- it's just that the effects are very, very, very close to zero, especially compared to other effects.
9) Whether they are relevant or not may not be measurable.
10) If we were to produce a perfect experimental model of the universe, we would need a computer that could have a representation in memory for each particle of the universe. Even in the most perfect computer, the memory bank itself would have to exceed the size of the universe. Which would be impossible. So it is impossible to model the universe completely, only make incomplete--and some might say artistic--manifestations or representations of it, with partial understanding.
And I think there is some beauty in that fact.
11) I think a healthy skepticism of hoaxes ought not to employ reflexive dismissiveness. Some empathy or even whimsical respect for those adhering to the hoax I think is in order. Occasionally the hoax can have some meaningful or poetic value even if no scientific merit. And occasionally, even if there is no scientific merit, it could lead the minds of scientists into a unique new direction of inquiry.
I understand many mystical beliefs to be psychological phenomena which are either a natural result of a person's temperament, or which may serve a purpose for the person that is valuable for them. Sometimes simple dismissal can cause such a person to be even more entrenched in their beliefs, and whatever positive or imaginative influence their beliefs had in the first place is lost. This reminds me of religious dogmas, where the fanatical zealots in a group gain power when the belief system as a whole is attacked from outside, and as a result the belief system itself becomes a rigid dogma, losing whatever poetic truth or wisdom it might have had...so I encourage a stance of "empathic skepticism" rather than reflexive dismissal.
The only thing I'd say is that yes, there is a space for this kind of relativism in philosophy: an inaccurate view of the physical world may arguably have some kind of metaphysical value. However, if a belief is factually wrong then it's factually wrong: no amount of metaphysical virtue is going to make a false belief anything other than metaphorically true (as it were). There may be a 'poetry' to the idea of water having Emotoesque memory, but this doesn't make it in the least bit true!
Personally, I think there is enough poetry to be found in the real world without making up nonsense, and I find myself feeling that the people with the real paucity of imagination are those who insist in chasing after delusions. Pick up any textbook of molecular biology, or chemistry, or physics, or whatever branch of the sciences takes your fancy and if you can just get a grip of the language of the discipline you will find the richest thought mines - with plenty of philosophical meat to chew, if you'll excuse the mixed cliches...
Yet I do think it is true that many scientists, and many skeptics, are embarrassed about poetics, or so embroiled in logical debate (correct as it may be) that their ability to appreciate poetics becomes quite limited. Many people I have worked with who are "alexithymic" are also excellent critics. Cynicism can be poisonous to one's quality of life. Sometimes I think it can be healthy to simply smile and nod...letting go of the need to debate. (Of course, that is not the point of this site!)
I don't think my science is on shaky ground. What may be on shaky ground is whether what I allude to is at all relevant or significant to the goings on in the universe. So the movements of molecules in the brain which produce a given thought do affect all other molecules in the universe, but the effect is most likely insignificant...yet we must not say it is "zero", else we contradict basic physical laws. Or unless we posit thoughts or consciousness to be mystical, which I consider a regressive stance.
Also, if things like this are NOT challenged, there is always the chance that they will become accepted by the public and even taught in schools. That, too, is unacceptable.
So what's the verdict? Sounds like this Cranky Media Guy is down on the ideas in this book, but It seems to me that the message or "the science" if I dare call it that in this Hidden Messages in Water book supports our discussion of evolution in terms of the idea that we were taught in school that the inert chemicals, "that have no sensorial capabalities," as someone put it in this forum, in the ocean were struck by lightening or however the story goes and by some chance, random low-probability chain of events started forming cell walls around themselves, and by random chance developed nucleic acids making them capable of reproducing and a couple of billion years later, vuala we have complex organsims out of the utter chaotic chemical soup that existed in earth's ancient oceans. I mean doesn't the idea that perhaps the elements of nature, like water, are imbued with intelligence and consciousness lend more credence to the theory of the origin of life on earth? It sounds a little bit easier to swallow or at least understand for dummies like me than all that chaos theory crap. What do you think?
The origin of intelligence or consciousness must be the brain...but the brain is simply a collection of atoms organized in a particular way. As brain tissue disappears, intelligence and consciousness diminish (as in strokes, Alzheimer's disease, etc.).
Why should one particular organizational style of atoms give rise to consciousness and intelligence, while other organizations do not? Do we not excessively aggrandize "brains" vs. "non-brains" or even create a spurious distinction?
Perhaps all interactions of atoms, particles, or energy, in any configuration, give rise to some sort of consciousness or intelligence...it's just that in the human brain these qualities are extremely "dense" or concentrated, also finely attuned to magnify and store various percepts in a temporal scale varying from less than a second to a hundred years.
So inanimate objects around us may be imbued with some form of consciousness or intelligence -- yet to claim that we can control water crystallization telepathically is magnifying this subtle principle into a giant hoax.
even scientist will tell you that we know only a very small percentage of what this world is all about and the experiements that they do can only be interpreted by what they already know. they are only observers. that's why they are always coming out with tests that contradict previous tests. in other words everything is a theory. but under first amendment rights everyone has the right to say what they think. if you think you can debunk emoto's theory then go ahead and do it, then publish your findings. putting something out of circulation just because you don't agree with it is a communist act, just like book burning. free speech.
he used high speed film because they generally melt while handling them, you have to get the picture before their gone.
as for most of the emails i read on this page, get some common sense and a little bit of education.
a favorite quote of mine. "a teacher's job isn't to teach, it's to open a closed mind." when you putting someone else down because you don't agree with them just makes you look uneducated.
Oh, by the way, why do you assume that the people here who question the "intelligent water" thing believe in "holy books?" I sure don't.
"a favorite quote of mine. "a teacher's job isn't to teach, it's to open a closed mind."
Uh, I'd say the job of a teacher is try to impart accurate information to people. Having an "open mind" shouldn't mean that you believe any silly-ass thing someone tells you, like, oh say, "intelligent water."
I consider a good teacher to be a knowledgeable guide, who can admit his/her own shortcomings, who can try to establish rapport with students, who can show enthusiasm and love for the subject matter, and who can encourage and expect hard work.
The beauty of shell's post is that it doesn't really require a critical retort. In fact, I have to wonder if shell actually holds the opposite opinion of what he/she appears to state, and the post is an ironic and humourous way to make a point.
ok
this water thing has me bothered. I want to believe! and I see a lot of reasons why it could be so...
Metal has a memory. bend it once and it's weaker, its molecular bonds get changed - damaged?
Molecules do seem to form crystaline structures which vary according to their environment.
Our thoughts affects our physiological state. In fact they can make us sick. Atoms appear to respond to the affects of observation. Alot of what has been expressed here as scientific skeptism seems to be a simple lack of imagination at putting together some of the latest evidence about our world. If our thoughts can affect our physiological state it means that they affect matter. Again a lack of insight and imagination might lead one to conclude that our bodies are different from the world beyond them. Whatever the case those little quarks start playing up when we look at them.
Therefore its not so hard to see that our thoughts could translate as energetic frequencies into the physical things we do such as write a word. In fact from a pure scientific perspective it seems unlikely that they wouldnt. I know places that have bad vibes and other that have good vibes and so I bet do all of you.
to be continued
So essentially I am arguing that we dont understand the interconnectivity of our physical world although a pinch of intuition suggests that alot of "spiritual wisdom" is trying to explain this still hidden world.
Finally in favour, the natural world has a propensity for patterns. Patterns that are mysteriously repeated from snails to galaxies. Actually not so mysterious, these are forms arising from energy dynamics, the mystery is in why. But for our purposes we can say that nature forms patterns AND these patterns are pleasing to us. Why not? We are part of nature too, are we too intelligent to notice that what is beautiful to us might actually be our way of registering function? Our eyes in other words might just be meters of function? Makes you stop and consider how the urban environment makes you feel right?
Now it would be rash of me to jump swiftly to the idea that we dont know what about the urban envirnomnet makes us feel not as good as a natural one. Perhaps its the effect of that environment on the water in our bodies. Perhaps our consciousness is the water in us? Im sorry, of course we know thats not true because we know what consciousness is and what makes it occur and where the organ is that creates it dont we. NO WE DONT. Which is a real big problem for skeptics really isnt it cause really you guys shouldnt believe in consciousness.
And this love business. Again, stunted unimaginative intellects might think that love is a human construct. What if its a name for a state of being that is perhaps perfect health beyond the terms of health as we understand it?
Well I like the patterns the water makes. My feelings respond to them.
The problem? Too many charlatans riding the money wagon. Skeptics are right to be cautious. Where o where is the replicated evidence? Maybe we cant have perfect replication with this. Where at least are the other samples. You know do 20 batches of water and freeze them all under the same conditions and see if the crystals are the same. Thats whats bothering me?
Hope this was enlightening.
Love
(he he he)
Adrian
Wishing doesn't make things so. Most things are testable. Either they pass or fail. The thing to do is test this silly "intelligent water" thing. It will either pass or fail--and I'm betting on the latter.
I would like to see it tested too. Im sure you are betting on the latter for the very obvious reason that its all just to implausible. And sure it is. But can I ask - do you say any kind of grace or blessing over your food? For what we are about to recieve etc etc? I presume you dont. Has science ever tested the effects of saying grace either on the food or on our own physiology? What would your bets be about the outcome of such testing? No effect? Then of course there are the tested unexplained phenomena like the fact that after trialling meditation sit ins to reduce crime in areas of LA the LAPD sponsored the TM group to keep doing it so obvious were the results. A notable decrease in the order of 25% violent crime corresponding to the meditation sessions. If you have further info on that or can debunk it I am objectively interested.
Viva la rigour de science!
but down with myopia masquerading as reason!
all the best
A.
This is case in point of how these things keep getting perpetuated in the US. Details on the debunking please see the James Randi website at randi.org or check out this report.
http://www.conradaskland.com/blog/?m=200509
Sorry about the errata spewing. I would like to be as educated as you Sandy. Im not sure however which part of my tail I am chasing. Perhaps you could argue by points instead of by flinging poo.
I couldnt find the info at the site you linked. I probably could have looked harder but could you ever so graciously direct me to a specific treatment of the TM study please. I did however look around and I came across an entirely conventional looking scientific appraisal of a TM experiment that was done in Washington state. It finds that crime rates did drop significantly even when controlling for temperature and other variables.
here it is,
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/soci/1999/00000047/00000002/00198917?
Cranky, are the results and a description of the study you mention on prayer available online?
Regards
Adrian
I think that CMG was probably referring to the Study of Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer; you can read more about it in this BBC article or in this Time article.
This is far from being the only study to have found no results in rigorous trials of intercessionary prayer: Mayo et al, Matthews et al<a>, and the <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16023511&itool=iconabstr&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum">MANTRA study, for example, all found that when the subject does not know he or she is being prayed for there is no evident effect to intercessionary prayer. There is some evidence that knowing you are being prayed for can help, as noted in one of the abstracts I've linked to and in this study, indicative of a placebo effect (not that there's anything wrong with placebos). Interestingly, the STEP study found that those who believed they were praying more actually suffered more complication, though, so maybe how you respond to prayer is not so simple:)
Your link to the Washington study was dead, but a search on that site for 'meditation crime' turned up the abstract. It does look interesting: I'll try to find out more.
Outeast
<a >Link shortened by moderator</a>
It is not peer reviewed.
The study is addressed specifically in the previous report link on my last post.
I encourage you to read some of the weekly commentaries at http://www.randi.org - Here is a link:
http://randi.org/jr/archive.html
Especially enlightening would be the forums where entries for the one million dollar paranormal prize are summarily dismantled. Here is a link:
http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43
Here is in reference to James Randi and the study:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/tm/tm16.html
Some years ago a prayer study was said to prove the power of intercessory prayer. It was hailed all over the web as finally showing proof. It was a coverup, the study actually showed the opposite. Here is an article on that:
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,982245,00.html
The most recent prayer study, which took 10 years to complete. It was a long wait for these results. The most comprehensive study of it's kind:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?ex=1301461200&en=4acf338be4900000&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
Mr. Shermer addresses the 2006 prayer study:
http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43
And this is an excellent essay and quick read by Mr. Shermer:
Twenty five fallacies that lead us to believe weird things:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/sherm3.htm
The study you pointed out appears to have been heavily criticized for selective use of data - for example, although there may have been a decline in violent crime there was apparently a spike in murders during that period, a point which the report authors failed to mention. (Disclaimer: since I'm not going to fork out 30 bucks to read the paper I can't do a proper factcheck myself and am having to rely on secondary sources such as this. Additionally, although there was a rise in murders in 2003 this trend continues into 2004... I'm not suggesting the TM study had anything to do with it!!)
I am not a statistician. However, if - as claimed - the meditation caused an 18% fall in violent crime over the course of 2 months, this should have been observable as a notable fall in crime over the year: that is, that year should have been a noticeable outlier in violent crime trend lines. A quick glance at the official data suggests this is simply not the case. Violent crime was lower that year than the year before, true (with 514.6 crimes per 100,000 inhabitants, as opposed to 534.5 the year before). However, violent crime continued to fall over the next seven years (and maybe longer), reaching just 369.7 in 2000 - suggesting that any statistical correlation with the TM study was almost certainly coincidental.
If there are any statistician out there, maybe you could look at the figures and see if I'm right?
WARNING: What the bleep do we know can seriously damage your cognitive faculties.
Outeast.
Curse google! No, that's not fair: curse my own carelessness. I searched for 'crime rates in Washington DC' and the site I linked to above was the top link; however, they are figures for Washington state, making my point invalid.
Well, almost. Wikipedia has stats on murders in Washington DC which show 1993 as having the third-highest murder rate the city has ever known. Figures here certainly show a steady fall in aggravated assault from 1993-1999, a fluctuating fall in robbery, etc etc. However, I can't find the figures for before 1993. It may be that my case holds even though my stats were wrong:) At any rate, statistical analysis on figures throughout the decade should test the claims of the TM report.
Apologies for my fuckup!
"Cranky, are the results and a description of the study you mention on prayer available online?"
I believe so. I know for sure that James Randi has referred to it and I think if you go to randi.org and do a search for it ("prayer study" perhaps?), you should be able to find his reference to it.