Fake Stigmata Controversy

Frank, actually since it is possible to have self-induced physical reactions as we have already observed I will have to say that such thing is possible. However, do you have to condition your mind very throughly in order to achieve this. Since I don't want bull horn's nor like them nor revere them it would be very difficult for me to get into the stage of wanting them. However, had I had multiple personality disorders (an uncontrolled mental illness) I'd say that whatever the personality would deem as "appropiate" such I would have. We have already recorded multiple personality disorder patients where one of the personalities possess a quantifiable illness while the other personalities do not. However, the key word here is that although these are controlled by the mind they are not consciously controlled therefore the patient does not have conscious control when to switch one personality off instead of another one.

Rob,
You have just stated what is a self validating belief. Which is based on circularity rather than presenting evidence. Calling the opponent un-enlightened because they do not believe in your position is just a strawman. Rather than attacking the position why don't you present evidence instead. I do not claim to have evidence that "daddy deities in the sky" (i.e. God, Zeus, Allah, various gods or what have you, there are so many gods that the term daddy deities is inserted in order to include all of them not to be condescending, as you may be aware there are still pagan who believe in various gods which are not the God of the Bible) do not exist, but I don't claim to have evidence that they do. So far I am just requesting evidence. And stick to the same premise that Thomas Jefferson did:

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. Thomas Jefferson

Elle:

You reply:

"...daddy deities is inserted in order to include all of them not to be condescending, as you may be aware there are still pagan who believe in various gods which are ..."

Wow! You are condescending (in saying "you may be aware ... like I might not be aware there are pagans!) even when you, in the same sentence, state you are not condescending about something else!

Then you mention many names for deities but that is just confusing the issue. One half of the people in the World are either Christian or Moslem. They believe in the God of the Bible. There would be even more except the anti-God totalitarian governments of the 20th century used "blindfolded fear" to outlaw religion in some of the largest countries of the world. You should read a little about what atheists do when they achieve total power in a country. The Inquisition and Sharia law pale in comparison.

Actually there is a difference between organic atheism and what you believe atheism is. Studies have found that the wealthier a nation is the highest the level of organic atheism is in such nation. It just goes to show that atheism would be the most advanced level in our society if it is that we wish to improve of course.

Indeed, countries containing high percentages of non-believers are among the most healthy and wealthy nations on earth (Paul, 2004). Of course, we must always distinguish between those nations where non-belief has been forced upon the society by dictators (

You state that the "wealthier a nation is the highest the level of organic atheism is in such nation"

And you state:
"It just goes to show that atheism would be the most advanced level in our society if it is that we wish to improve of course.

Rob, actually nations did get better economically by leaving the old Biblical myths behind. Take the issue of women's equality and slavery. Slavery and women inequality is supported by the Bible, therefore it was only when people started to dismiss those points of view that they actually started to succeed as a nation. Our founding fathers were not too religious, neither is this country if you think about all the liberties that we have which fundamentally go against the Bible. That people may believe in a God does not necessarily mean that they are following the Bible teachings. As for morality, like I said even in the Bible morality is relative. If you compare the Old Testament to the New Testament you will see the difference. The Bible advocates slavery, so is slavery immoral or moral? For my time I consider it immoral, had I been born back couple of centuries ago, I would probably have different thoughts. As for Netherlands again morality is relative.

We are not going to see eye to eye on this issue because you have been raised to believe morality is fixed and absolute when it is not. We justify killing in wars and to defend ourselves however we do not justify individual acts of violence that goes again the rules established by our society. We developed this rules because we are a social species and as a consequence we need to ensure order and civilization. Everything in the animal kingdom has a balance. We kill other animals for food, so do you think yourself better than a cow or a plant. I sure don

I must say that you are rather dogmatic in support of relative morality.

You state:

"We are not going to see eye to eye on this issue because you have been raised to believe morality is fixed and absolute when it is not."

I can just as rightly reply:

"you have been raised to believe morality is NOT fixed and absolute when it IS."

How is your assertion any more valid than mine? Answer: It's not.

Actually, I rather think you were not raised that way. but you probably were overly influenced by your professors in college.

By the way, a couple of factual mistakes in your reply:

1. There are many cases in the Netherlands of children being killed AFTER birth for reasons of euthanasia. If you would like sources for this statement, I would be happy to locate them.

2. Euthanasia is legal in the Netherlands. Assisted suicide is legal in Oregon.

The trouble with trying to put a number on how many atheists there are in the world,is atheism means different things to different people.

There are the

" the proof of love is to suffer for the one you love"
religion is not based upon facts but your faith believing in something that is not based on proof.
i believe in padre pios stigmata regardless of proof if someone needs proof i believe all his miracles are proof enough. i do not know why god gives these painful wounds but i am merely human. who am to fathom what my gracoius lord does. i have no need to argue no need to disbelieve but to only have faith and trust in the lord.
god bless everyone

HI;).I always say each to his own and God for us all, and my brother also says "May your God go with you" and if you have none, then bless you too:). akin to a sneeze; merely a message of good will. The church in Sri Lanka (if I am not wrong in Athurugiriya) is built to call the devout believers who have received the blessings of their dearest wishes being resolved, settled; personal and matrimonial affairs tidied up; children recovering; marriages about to fray, bonded; murderers found; money returned; jobs and businesses improving; financial losses recovered; to give credence to their Saviour and his tool - Padre Peo who have helped them (the seekers, not of faith but of misery) in their various difficulties. As to the stigmata and padre Peo's self-infliction, and to the various dignitaries who scorned the man and now "alleged cult behavior", even Jesus had his day when he was mocked, scorned and scourged by those in rank and power, but he still stood strong. Now we have evidence from people that Padre Peo's aid to the afflicted is just not a figment of a persons imagination, but a factual proving that he is a being who is providing some help to those less fortunate in the name of Jesus. As much as Jesus is to the believers and to those who call upon him for help and sustenance. Every channel of energy, as long as it returns to God (and despite those who do not believe in his existence)is acceptable and the energy is the seeker of the truth, not those who condemn and criticise because they are uncertain; these people will never see because they are already biased in their opinions. An open mind is an open soul, thus giving freedom to receive any messages that one gets in whatever direction is being made for you. Therefore the message here is "who came first, the chicken or the egg". I say, the chicken had the first cockrel within, therefore the beginnings of its race. In Padre' Peo's case. I think it is the provings of people and their solace that add value to the man as it was with Jesus himself, the provings of his existence and of what he did and does to day for man, that add value to our faith. Without him, then I guess, we will be like the rest, going after prophets until we get to know really what is the truth:).. God Bless..

Ok I come here with a rational mind to disclose some arguements against padre pio.

first, of just because some of the christian commenters here get fired up about this topic don't suppose they are wrong because of this. Disregard the commenters emotion, we are humans we have emotions, so what? so even mentioning that it there is a broad difference in emotions is pointless. name calling means nothing to both the commented and the commenter on who is right.

To the people who think the wounds are suppose to be in the wrist because physics says so ill provide a rebuttal as to why they can be in the palm and it all has to do with they way the romans crucified. I saw a history channel show about this specifically, i cant remember the name. the experts DID calculate that the hand would rip open if the hand and feet were nailed to a cross. However there are multiple ways to crucify. The nails can go directly through the palm if ropes were tied around the arms and if a small ledge was added to cross. This means the wounds may be in the correct place. The nail and rope combo is very plausible. the rope held up the crucified and the nail added pain (the Romans were very entertained by seeing pain as a form of punishment, hence, the purpose of the Colosseum and gladiator arenas at times. So a nail added dramatic effect and made the punishment more severe). If your argument is that they were self inflicted because they were in the wrong place, it is not the way to go about disproving this miracle.

To thisoneguy.. Thank you!.. Most practical. And I was and am not one of the name callers!.. I am always of the opinion that each is to his own, and it is the order of the day, and Padre Peo is one for many, as much as there are faiths and believers, and people. The only difference between those with faith and those without are those that kill, then they only have faith in themselves! And none of the "saints" unless they were instructed to do so (beatification of Joan De Arc) killed per se. Then the Buddhist religion should also be exemplified because it is the only "religion"/philosophy where men have not attempted to increase their numbers using religion. In Padre Peo's case, he did not ask that he be beatified, nor canonized, and people who believe in him still resort to him through prayer. The purpose of this "discourse" herein, is? Those who digress will never believe, those who do will, despite all that is said to the contrary. Back to faith.. those who think Jesus is it, and I do, plus God will. But I do not condemn the man who does not say "Jesu", because in Jesus's chapter and verse it is also said "Judge not and you shall not be ...etc." I guess we will have to leave it to God to prove that the church and the medical center in Padre Peo's home town, and free medicines given to the ailing in his name are all worthy causes or worthless. The people who benefit from their belief and their visits to these places hold testimony of a person beyond. Factually, it appears that many people still will continue to test and question and the purpose finally to prove the power of Yes; the "Daddy Deity in the sky".. father most supreme! Fake Stigmata for Padre Peo? What was his purpose, was he seeking beatification? But then sainthood is only bestowed after death, so was it his pre-plan for a future life after death? And Mother Theresa had no wounds on her person, but on her soul in pity for the poor! She is to be "sainted" too 😊 I think neither of them nor Jean de' Arc did what they did with the intention of sainthood. However, of the latter two, no miracles of healing have been associated with them, no sites or prayer centers, nor churches built with them in mind. The saints that have proven of help to people are therefore "sanctified", and only through miracles. To prove a point,I would like to find one chapter and one verse in the Bible in any translation,which gives women a pride of place. This would then prove Padre Peo too. Just attitudes of people. You cannot really change that even if you try. Methinks no one would want to rewrite the Bible to put a verse in favor of a woman. The world is not modern enough for that, so the Saints will always hold a place in this old fashioned world of ours!

People listen : if he did in fact create the wounds himself, than why did the wounds suddenly disappear upon his death, he would have had some major scars if he had been pouring acid on his hands for 50 freaking years !
Think about it. Saint Pio was and is the real deal, and that is why we all love him.
J. P. ( Toronto, Canada ).

Hi. J.P. Biancofiore in Canada. Your comment could also be taken as proof that the sainted saint is not the real deal because once he died he could not maintain the wounds that he himself created, as alleged by many. I would think that his body not deteriorating into soil is a validation of a form which kept the remains of his body intact. St. Therese and only a few other "saints" are so "blessed". Padre Peo is, I think proving his own worth and more believable now in death than in life by the many miracles that are happening in his prayer center and church and if not his many miracles, then the extension of his faith in the medical center in his home town, which is a miracle in itself because most hospitals are more a financial deal than a cure world wide. At least someone has been influenced by him or in relation to him, to give of themselves to the less fortunate, the sick and the diseased and in the context of today and selfishness, this is truly a miracle 😊.

HiAndrea, You don't understand. If he had been pouring acid on his wounds for 50 years, upon death he would have extreme scars from the acid, and he didn't. As far as the body not decomposing it is called Embalming which is what i do here in Canada, i am a Funeral Director. Embalming basically is draining the blood, and injecting a formaldehyde based solution via the carotid artery, this will preserve the body for a period of time.

Hi.. I always give credit where credit is due, I do not know about embalming, however, despite all the embalming techniques, there is a natural time span which even the best of embalmers cannot control, and that is the natural decomposition of flesh. Bones remain and sometimes the encasing material, such as seen in the Egyptian mummies, but they become effigies and are hardly identifiable from the original form in which they were laid. http://listverse.com/2007/08/21/top-10-incorrupt-corpses/,.. and Yahoo answers says "God can do anything!". St. Bernadette for one 1879, St. John 1859 etc.. Padre Peo? I am sure that as a Funeral Director, even your expertise might not stretch to keep a body from decomposing for over a 100 years? I do agree with you though that you do love the saint and I do too. I match fact with fallacy 😊 Also lays to rest any censure of how Padre Peo achieved his wounds and retained them.

Hi, we are not talking about 100 years, only 40 +. I have exhumed 5 or 6 bodies over the pat 15+ years, and most are still are in very good condition considering the burial methods, such as mausoleum ( like St. Pio ). 3 in particular whom had been deceased for 26, 43, and 51 years were in amazing condition. They had some mold, and dehydration but I could have set them up again and have another viewing for them with little preparation time. Padre Pio had been in a mausoleum for 40 + years, so if he was well embalmed he would still look aesthetically well.

By the way, why is this conversation on a website entitled " The museum of hoaxes" ?
Saint Pio is definitely no hoax.

Good question 😊. Answers on page 1 of this site. Per se, a matter of opinion of those who judged him such, and those who wanted to prove him such, so until rectified as bona fide, will remain such. I would recommend that they move it into the "10 bodies of saints who have not perished" then he becomes history instead of a mystery 😊.

To all those who doubt the power of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, you will see him before you go depending on how bad you blaspheme his messengers ....

For this historian Lugatto and the rest of the mob out there... Father Pio made very important statements in his lifetime... Forgiveness even when one was persecuted.

This is important... there many historians and experts etc etc etc .. blah blah blah.. etc etc...

However, there is so much evidence about Padre Pio and his miracles and prayers for all.

To those who doubt.... wait till you reach your death bed... and ask for forgiveness..

Alleluia Christ is Risen... Peace to All Men.

To Charybdis you obviously will feel the power of Jesus Christ this Easter.....

the stigmata in San Pio appears as a real reason that God is telling you what the scientists cannot define.

Science cannot define God or Life, however, God and Life can define science.... so all the scientific clowns out there have to think seriously what is Faith and Belief.....

would they trust flying up in an airplane that it is hanging in the hands of a man piloting it and not really the engineering marvel... Also wouldn't the pilot himself rely 100 percent in faith that the aircraft's engineering would respond to his controlling the plane.... believing that the engineers who built the aircraft could be trusted to keep the aircraft safe in the air.

How did they come to such beliefs and confidence so as to pilot an aircraft....

Is it faith in the engine... or the life that created the engine and the rest of the airplane? !

Back on Padre Pio... there have been many signs... simple.... but people want sophistication to believe in it....

God bless you non-believers and atheists.

@Leo Fernando.. Other than the "curse" vested upon those who do not believe (Big smile), I would say "Amen" to the rest, because yes, most people here are of the "opinion" that Padre Peo is the bonafide being and the best message from our God is "Judge not and you shall not be judged" therefore let him be the best judge of that! I do not think that the people who have their "opinions" to the contrary to what is thought or said in favour "of" are going to be damned in hell fire either, because it is merely an opinion and we are all blessed with free thinking. Here, you find a diversity of opinions, akin to a place for discussion. It is not a fight, it is faith, therefore each is thus entitled to his beliefs as well as his/her opinions. The only difference between the speakers here, and the hierarchy who may tend to disprove his religious superiority in the claim to sainthood, is that they would not give him his sainthood because of the reasons as given above. The purpose would then be, if you cannot be of help, at least do not hinder.