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New doctors to get quack training
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Posted By:
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Jun 05, 2005
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Junk science is getting out of control. Now some medical schools will require students to take courses in herbal therapy, accupunture, meditation and other forms of alternative "treatment". How do these people keep their jobs?
<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050605/ap_on_he_me/apn_alternative_medicine" title="Quack medical training">Quack medical training</a>
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Comments
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lizzy
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Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 | 07:46 PM
Accipitor, Captain Al, you are both right in all that have said, and I have been reading and re-reading what you have said. You have both taught me a lot.
You are both very wise men, indeed. |
lizzy
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Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 | 09:03 PM
Captian Al, I know that with an accupunturist, and herbal therapy, I would rather that the person tending me had gone to school to study it. It is still medicine, just a slightly different way of looking at things. Accupunture, for instance is a very very ancient form of medicine practised in the east, and there are certainly a lot of data and scientific proof fortheir theories. Just because it is eastern medicine and not wetstern medicine does not mean that it does not work. We here in the west need to step out of the box and look around.
For an example:-
Last week, we had touched on Einstein and his theories, and it was mentioned that his theories were poo-pooed by the general science board. And yes, that is true. But get your mind around this- it was only a few hundred years before Einstein's death, that the western science was still grappling with the fact that the Earth revolves around the sun and moon, and the moon and sun do not revolve around the Earth, while the Earth stays stationary, as they had thought. So, ofcourse they poo-pooed what he had said, simply because his thinking was stepping out of the box of what everyone else said.
Now, we know better. We are now studying DNA strains, and through that way, starting to learn how to stop diseases like multiple sclorosis, and other very grippling diseases, once again, via natural medicine. Its all written down, all tested, approved and documented. |
lizzy
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Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 | 10:29 PM
did I happen to mention, that the man who originally tried to proved that the Earth revolved around the sun and moon and not the other way around was stoned to death for heresy, and they disinclined to accept his proff (not theories but proof)and also for daring to disagree with scientic knowitalls, and it took two thousand years for the science board to surreptitiously look at his findings, and found it was true? |
Accipiter
Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 | 02:41 AM
I don't really see that traditional medicine and modern medicine are really all that different, anyway. They're both methods used to treat the sick and injured. Quite often an old traditional remedy will be turned into a pill after a bit of research. The traditional treatment and the modern one will probably have some differences, but I see that as a benefit. It provides us with more options. Sure, many herbal remedies are useless or even harmful, but so are many pills you can buy. It's those useless ones that we should be worried about. If doctors are trying to tell cancer patients that eating eight kilograms of raw pig brains every day will cure them, then we have problems. |
lizzy
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 | 02:56 AM
Yes, I agree with you, Accipiter. But you try to say that to a GP.
Amd if we had to eat buckets and buckets of raw pig brains :( then I think humanity would have died out long ago lol lol lol....
I always think that the two should be combined, rather than warring against each other.
Imagine a cancer patient, aides patient for example, getting medical treatment, then getting herbal medicine to give strength, stamina and keep levels even.. imagine.
Apparently, here in Australia, that is about to go into swing.
Now, doctors here, will soon be forced to look at natural medicine, not to place place of, but to work with...
I have seen the difference it makes.. its amazing.. |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 | 09:56 AM
Lizzy, I don't know how to break the news to you but acupuncture is not medicine and there is no proof that it works. Also, no one here here has ever said that because a certain treatment is Eastern, it does not work. A brief look at the principles behind it will tell you it goes against everything we have learned about the human body by actual study as opposed to that which is believed through superstition and myth.
I also disagree with your statement about science having difficulty with the idea that the earth revolves around the sun. Men of science already knew that. The problem was the religious side who saw increased knowledge of common people as a threat. If people came to realize the religious version of things was wrong, they would lose their stranglehold on power. There was no way they going to let that happen so the natural thing to do was declare these scientists traitors and heathens.
"Stepping outside the box" is a good thing but you should try it by viewing things with a skeptical eye, not believing in ancient myths that have no scientific proof. |
lizzy
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 | 07:00 AM
Well, I happen to disagree with you about accupuncture not being medicine. Just because you do not subscribe medication, but instead use nerves and chakra to heal illness, and yes, it has been proven. Naybe not by your knowitalls, but itself has proven that it works.
And yes, we all knwow how religion has always blinded us to reality. That is what I meant the other day, about opening our eyes to what is treally going on around us.
But the ame way that we have been manipulated via religion so others can keep power, the pharmaceuticcal companies are no different. Nor the cosmetics companies. There would be a furore if women found out, that they are paying thousands of dollars to get really expwnsive lotions to get rid of sun spots and freckles, when the humble old sun screen lotion for $5 will do the same. But shhh... I didn't say that... |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 | 09:54 AM
Lizzy, there is no such thing as chakra, and poking needles into nerves does not cure illness. If you think it has been proven, show us the evidence. The only evidence in favor of acupuncture seems to be from the people who practice it (and charge money). If it does work it should be easy to verify by scientific testing but never has been. Like I said before, it goes against everything we have learned about the human body. So if you subscribe to it, you would never be able to go to a conventional medical practicioner again since their principles say chakra is hogwash. How can the two be compatible?
On the other point, I don't see pharmaceutical companies manipulating anybody. They don't have to. The public do it to themselves. To use your example, it's no secret that their expensive remedies for wrinkles, freckles, etc do the same as sun screen. Any one should be able to see that. They are just taking advantage of the fact that people will believe almost anything they read without checking further. Is that the company's fault? No one forces anybody to buy the stuff. The market is there so they cater to it. If people smartened up (not likely) the market would disappear and those companies would move on to something else.
Other drugs with dubious results are good markets because of all the hypocondriacs around. Many people see ads for new "miracle" drugs, usually on the internet, and pressure their doctors to prescribe them. And the doctors usually give in if you are persistant enough. Once again, if you think there are cures for everything, you may be an easy target.
The public have to learn to separate fact from fantasy. Just because they see TV shows and movies where doctors never fail to save a life, they somehow think this what real life medical science should be able to do. Wake up and face reality, it's not like that.
With all the "cures" being presented to us by herbal therapists, acupucturists and chiropractics these days, its a miracle anybody ever gets sick anymore. |
lizzy
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 | 06:43 PM
There is no such thing as chakra???
So there is no such thing as the third eye...
there is no intuition? Spo what have I been experiencing all these years? hmmm... so that is also my imagination...
Wow... well, that stuns me.
So I guess, since we can only believe what we can see and touch, there are no atoms, because we cant see them. There is no air, because we cannot see it.. well, I'll be blown.
Guess I'll have to tell the two ghosts that live with me in my house, "hey, you don't exist. Youre a part of my imagination".
The little gir who lives here and plays pranks and plays with my cats, she does not exist either...
have you ever, for one second, thought..gee, there might be more to life that what we actually see with the naked eye, which for humans is quite limited, especially if you are wearing blinkers. |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 | 08:22 PM
Can you measure chakra? Humans cannot see air but we can feel it and detect it with instruments. What instrument do you use to measure chakra? Scientific experiments prove the existence of atoms. Many others have repeated those experiments to confirm this.
How do you know there are ghosts in your house? Does anyone else see them besides you? If so there are a lot of scientists who would like to visit. You'll be famous and rich.
I truly believe there is more to life than what we see with the naked eye. Human senses are quite limited like you say but we do have one advantage over other species. We can think and reason. That means we have the ability to learn how our universe works.
Have you ever, for one second, thought... gee, after centuries of research, scientists cannot detect or find any hard evidence for things like ghosts and chakra so it's likely they do not exist. If you think they may have blinders on, just remember they are the ones who sent space probes to Jupiter, invented your car, built Boeing 747s and developed the computer in front of you that allows you to post on this forum. If they can do that, maybe they can make a judgement about ghosts. What credentials do you have to prove them wrong? |
lizzy
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 | 09:10 PM
yes, there is certainly an instrument for measuring chakra. It is called the brain.
And yes, people who have come to my house have seen my ghosts. Especially the tall Aboriginal man. He has been seen and sometimes felt by quite a few, so it is not only I who have seen them.
And yes, science has detected ghosts, via their gismo machines.
And never for a moment did I say that science does not work. I'm just saying, they are human, they are fallible, and sometimes it takes them a while to get things right.
And yes, we owe a lot to computers. They not only have made this world a village, they enable us to talk to people on the other side of the world, sometimes to even break down walls.
It has enabled people to hear who are deaf, move who are paralysed via machines and computers working together. |
lizzy
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 | 09:11 PM
this world is full of miracles... of intangible things. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 | 12:08 AM
lizzy said:
"this world is full of miracles... of intangible things."
Sheesh. Even if that is the case, that in no way constitutes PROOF of any specific thing.
In other words, even if the world IS full of miracles, it doesn't prove that "alternative medicine" is anything other than quackery. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 | 12:16 AM
lizzy said:
"yes, there is certainly an instrument for measuring chakra. It is called the brain."
Oh? I hardly know where to begin with you. I'm sorry, lizzy, you're probably a lovely person, but your "reasoning" leaves a lot to be desired.
Measuring something requires specificity. Your "sense" that something exists in no way constitutes proof that it exists let alone serves as any kind of measurement. Sorry.
"And yes, people who have come to my house have seen my ghosts. Especially the tall Aboriginal man. He has been seen and sometimes felt by quite a few, so it is not only I who have seen them."
Again, your sense of something in no way constitutes proof of its existance. I'm going to make a wild guess here and say that most, if not all, of the people who have "seen" your ghost(s) are disposed to believing in that sort of thing generally. People think they see the face of Jesus on tacos. Does that in your mind "prove" that it truly IS the face of Jesus, as opposed to a simple burn mark?
"And yes, science has detected ghosts, via their gismo machines."
Well, if scienticians have detected ghosts using Gismo Machines, who am I to argue with their findings? Uh, could you please be a wee bit more specific as to WHICH scientists and WHICH machines have allegedly detected ghosts. What credible scientist can you name who will claim that he or she has detected evidence of paranormal events of any kind? |
Hairy Houdini
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 | 08:06 AM
How quickly we forget the good Doctors Peter Venkman and Egon Spangler... anybody who collect molds, fungus, and spores can't be wrong |
lizzy
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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 | 11:04 PM
By Russell White-
I have been working toward drawing parallels between paranormal study and mainstream scienceA few months ago I was contacted by a doctor who was doing a research project with electronic voice phenomenon (EVP). This doctor used to work on the manned space flight program for NASA; she had worked at the South Pole doing research for a satellite communications company. She is currently doing some individual studies in the area of EVP. One day as we were discussing EVP causation theories via telephone, she told me that she believed EVP was caused by cosmic rays. Well, little bells went off in my head warning me that this lady might be a little touched. I basically said as much and she then informed me that studies done years ago proved that cosmic rays could alter computer code at a binary level, by changing the memory cells. This would affect not only computers but also any type of electronics that use chip technology. She then went on to say that she thought EVP was introduced into electronics in this manner.
Now, let me set this up with a brief dissertation on known scientific law. All objects have positive and negative charges, and all objects seek to be neutrally charged. By this I mean they seek to have the same number of both positive and negative electrons
This is causation for things like lightning and other electrical discharges.
Now, think about what we study. According to multi-dimensional models of the universe, our dimension is folded and intertwined with at least 7 other dimensionsThe Aurora Borealis and Aurora Australis (northern and southern lights) are examples of what can happen when cosmic rays collide with particles in our atmosphere, the colors and light are caused by the collision of the particles, and the shapes are caused by the Earth |
lizzy
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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 | 11:30 PM
It has also been said by phychologosts and scientist, one encluding my hero Elbert Einstein, that woem tend to sense ghosts more than men, we women tend to use their left side of the brain(the fenale side, pertaining to sense, emotion, art) while men to use more the right side (pertaining to mechanics, mathematics) and such.
I guess this is why gay men, are more artistic, more in contact with their own emotions and their senses than hetros.. I know, because I have a few good gay friend, and they are articulate, funny, smart... as they use predominantly the left side of the brain.
Of course, heterosexuals are also funny, smart.. well, some anyway...
Anyway, back to my rambling about ghosts.. by trick of nature, the are sense more by the females.. and yes, I know.. thats not proof.. thats not proof..
yeh, yeh, yeh... |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 | 12:07 AM
lizzy said:
"It has also been said by phychologosts and scientist, one encluding my hero Elbert Einstein, that woem tend to sense ghosts more than men, we women tend to use their left side of the brain(the fenale side, pertaining to sense, emotion, art) while men to use more the right side (pertaining to mechanics, mathematics) and such.
I guess this is why gay men, are more artistic, more in contact with their own emotions and their senses than hetros.. I know, because I have a few good gay friend, and they are articulate, funny, smart... as they use predominantly the left side of the brain."
One big problem with this theory, lizzy, is that gay men are MEN, not WOMEN. Why would a man, simply because he has a sexual preference for men rather than women, have a brain structure similar to a woman's? This may or may not be true, but you don't KNOW this; you're just making wild assertions here. |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 | 10:20 AM
I find it hard to believe this guy, Russell White, took any training in critical thinking. There are so many holes in that dissertation, the only proof it supplies is that he hasn't a clue about scientific matters. That's not surprising since he apparently studied psychology and criminal justice, at the junior level.
Anyone who has taken Electronics 101 knows there are no positive and negative electrons. Electrons are negatively charged by their very existence, the definition of a negative charge being an excess of electrons in relation to another point in a circuit (a positive charge is a lack of electrons). Atoms that temporarily have a more of less than their normal number of electrons are called ions; they can be positive or negative.
Since Mr. White is ignorant of these basic facts, I see no reason to take the rest of his explanation seriously. I also feel he is incapable of making judgements about someone else's scientific research. Obviously he is targeting an audience that has even less of a technical background than he does. The slightest bit of scrutiny reveals enormous flaws. Finally, I don't know what it has to do with quack medicine besides the fact that they are both nonsense. |
lizzy
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 | 06:36 AM
well, if its quack medicine, then I'll take medicine any day.
Take a small problem like Candidia. It took years for docotrs to allow the capsules to be distributed onto shelves of chemists, up until not long ago, you had to actually go into a doctor for a prescription, for something that should have been on the shelves ages ago, but as they knew that most women will need it from time to time, they refused to allow it onto shelves. It took woem lobbying to the government, and forcing the government to step in and order the doctor to put onto shelves.
Up until then, the doctor would prescribe you with antibiotics, knowing fully well that it was the antibiotic that was causing it in the first place.
They also would not tell women, that if they take the pill, they will also get Candidia. The woman would go on the pill, next thing you know, back to the doctor she would go, to geta prescription to get rid of the Candidia, when they know all along, all they had to do was to put a bit of Bifidobactrium into the script to stabilise the body (chemicals) so that Candidia would be averted.
And all along they knew, that all the women needed was a bit of Bifidoactrium and some Tea Tree Oil.
Doctors are all crookds. |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 | 03:45 PM
Lizzy, I take it that with your superior knowledge, you are in perfect health? You can see right through that world-wide doctor conspiracy can't you?
I wouldn't say doctors are all crooks. If anything the majority may be incompetent but that's not the fault of mainstream science.
Perhaps our expectations of their abilities are too high. That would then be the fault of people who watch too much television. |
lizzy
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 | 09:29 PM
Finally! I am back again.. its a week. I have missed having my debates with you guys,,,
As to your question of my perfect health, I have an inoperable brain tumor on the opetuitary gland, for which I need to take tablets twice a week, and as the tablets sometimes make me feel sick, I have found that herbal medicines have maybe not eliminated, but has certainly made a lot easier the symptoms from the medicine, and I wont bore you with the symptoms, I will take up two pages and bore you all to tears. But anyway, the herbal medicines I take is for balancing the hormones, giving me energy (of course any herbal medicines I take, I do check up on, to make sure it does not fiddle with my pituitary gland), to help with insomnia at times, and to give me an sometimes to give me an appetite, otherwise I might end up with annorexia from the hormonal imbalance. Ofcourse, when I went to my proffessor to tell him about the symptoms, and what kind of herbs I use to make my life a little easier, I thought he might pass on the information to other patients with the same problem, but of course, he just laughed at me, said its all bunkum. |
lizzy
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 | 09:34 PM
by the way, on the tv the other day, some scientist came on, to tell everyone, that they have make a great discovery, that Omega 3 & Omega 6 combines, ( as found in fish oil and linseed oil) taken 1 tablespoon for the length of 3 months on a daily basis, has really lowered the effects of Attention Deficit Disorder.
After 3 months, the patients on a double blind study, have been able to study, read properly, stay nice and calm, and able to concentrate for 3 lengths of the time. Isnt that great news???
And this is a real, rinkey dinkey scientist type study, with all the whistles and bells, and whirring machines....
And its the scientist who actually said this, not some old lady who tells fortunes in the old house at the end of the street.. he he he
love to see your comments to this one... |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 | 10:00 AM
Lizzy, my first thought is: you saw this on television? Since when is TV an authority on anything?
I would ask myself who is this "scientist"? Is he/she a real scientist with real credentials or a self-proclaimed "expert"? If he/she does have credentials, where from? What previous work has he/she done? What were the motives for doing this study? What do other scientists think of his/her work? Have others been able to replicate the results of this "study"?
Past experience has shown that TV production people are not the best judges on what is real science. So don't start quoting the program just yet. That's how a lot of pseudo-science nonsense is spread. People just hear about some claims and assume it to be true, subconsciously hoping the TV reporter has done the checking up for you. There are a lot of amazing things being done with science these days. Pseudo-scientists are just tagging along claiming "legitimacy by association".
If this study is valid, it must be published in some respectable journal somewhere. The trouble is, unless you are involved in real scientific research, it's hard for a layperson to know which are the legitimate publications and which are flakey. Make sure you are not believing it just because it's what you want to hear. |
phillip
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 | 04:21 PM
lizzie,
You are the truth seeker here. These others mask the truth with negative energy and doubt. All of us are out of balance.
I have faith in physical reality. The truth is evasive. The truth must be sought to be found. Those who profit form ignorance hide the truth. BUT IT IS THE TRUTH, AND IT DOES EXIST. |
Carter S
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 | 09:54 PM
TWO WORDS,
KEVIN TRUDEAU
He has a great book with many non-drug remedies. It's called natural cures. I recommend that all of you read it. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 | 07:37 AM
Carter S said:
"TWO WORDS,
KEVIN TRUDEAU
He has a great book with many non-drug remedies. It's called natural cures. I recommend that all of you read it."
Carter, are you aware that Kevin Trudeau has been prosecuted by the Federal government for the "cancer cures" he peddled on TV infomercials?
He received a very large fine and was ordered to stay off TV. For some reason, however, he was allowed to write books and the result is the piece of crap he is currently selling.
Are you further aware that Walgreens, I believe, has taken the book off their shelves because the facts about Trudeau were pointed out to them?
Before you jump on me, I KNOW that it was taken off the shelves of a national drug store chain and from memory, I believe it was Walgreens. I'll check.
Bottom line: Trudeau is a phony. |
not taking sides - just lookin at the facts
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 | 06:32 AM
It's really sad to see that so many people still refer to alternative and complementary medicine as quackery. I suggest that before you dismiss the benefits of this kind of medicine you all go and do some research. I for one have used alternative and complementary medicine for a considerably long time, a long time before insurance companies started to take it on board, why you may ask? because it works for me. I am not some crazy hippy, I am a med student. Now I am not against orthodox medicine but I do feel that when it comes to looking after your body you should really be open to different treatments. In reply to captain al's highly ignorant comment "Does anybody here really think meditation, prayer or herbs can heal medical conditions?" well I think you are an idiot. You have obviously no idea about the power of the mind, again this is not an |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 | 02:49 PM
Not taking sides, um, where are the double blind studies which prove that "alternative" medicine works?
As someone who claims to be studying medicine, you certainly know that double blind studies are the only good way to objectively test things like medicines, right?
May I ask you what disease has ever been cured by "alternative" medicines? Supporters usually point out that alternative medicines have been around for a long time. Why then has NO disease ever been cured by them?
As for the efficacy of prayer, a recent SCIENTIFIC study determined that praying for a sick person had NO effect on the outcome. Believers just ignore that, of course, but that's what was determined when it was actually tested.
As an aide, could you stop calling people idiots? It's unnecessary and it certainly doesn't help your argument. |
Dr. Jenkins
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 | 09:04 AM
There is a good test if your heartburn is caused by too much or too little stomach acid being created.
Take 2 to 3 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar. If you receive relief from heartburn then the addition of the vinegar acid helps you, showing you are in need of more acid. If it only adds to your discomfort then you had too much stomach acid. |
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Note: This thread is located in the Old Forum of the Museum of Hoaxes.
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