MOH Forum: Disputed: Turtles never die of old age

Disputed: Turtles never die of old age

Posted By:
TurtleGuy
Nov 10, 2004

I took the Science and Nature test. The answer to question number 5 states:

CLAIM: Turtles never die of old age.
ANSWER: TRUE. Turtles exhibit what is known as 'negligible senescence.' In other words, unlike humans, they do not continue to age once their bodies reach maturity. In theory, they might be able to live forever, though in practice this would never happen. Injury, predation, or disease eventually kill them. But turtles have been known to live beyond 150 years without exhibiting any signs of old age. Fish and amphibians also share this enviable characteristic.

Being somewhat skeptical of this answer I decided to check it out.

This article on Snapping Turtles, based on cited source, says:

Because adults have no natural enemies, they usually live a long life and die of old age during the winter. (10) Annual adult survivorship is 93 to 97%, and confirmed annual adult mortality ranges from less than 1 to1.3%, which means that 60% of the individuals reaching maturity will live to age 50. (10, 28, 30, 32, 48) Unlike in any other species survivorship does not decrease with age. (10) The maximum theoretical longevity is 170 years, and longevities over 100 years can be expected especially in the northern populations where the activity season is shorter. (10, 11, 42) Lifespans of over 75 years have been observed. (11)

Many other sites, both scientific and sites focused on turltles as pets give maximum life spans for different species of turtles and tortoises.

http://www.luresext.edu/aquaculture/turtles.htm

"Life span of this turtle is about 20 years in the wild
and up to 40 years in captivity"

http://www.azinet.com/aging/Aging_Book.html

Turtle life spans

"Wood turtle Clemmys insculpta - 60
Eastern box turtle Terrapene carolina carolina - 75
Coahuilan box turtle Terrapene coahuila - 9.4

I found several other sites also suggesting that turtles do eventually die of old age. On the pro side, several trivia sites support your proposition (some with near identical wording). This proposition seems to have entered folklore, but as you know, that does not make it fact.

There appears to be agreement that turtles suffer "negligible senescence", but no one else seems to be taking the extra step and claiming that "turtles never die of old age".

Could you possibly cite sources for your proposition? From my research, I would say this proposition is at least unproven and does not belong on a site that prides itself on discrediting hoaxes and folklore.

Thanks.

P.S Great site. I read your blog regularly.

Category: Animals, Death; Replies: 20

Comments

The Curator in San Diego Member	Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 \| 02:32 PM Check out this article that was published in Discover two years ago: Can Turtles Live Forever The language seems to be pretty unequivocal: "Blanding's and perhaps also Midland Painted turtles don't senesce
TurtleGuy	Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 \| 03:21 PM Thanks for the quick reply. I did find that excellent article. I don't dispute that turtles do not physically deteriorate or do so at a neglible rate. I'm just uncertain that turtles do not die of old age. I think if the scientists had come to this startling conclusion they would state it with more clarity. Since neither of use are biologists and we are interpreting the limited available evidence in different ways, I'll see if I can find a turtle forum for some expert input on the subject (as you may have noticed, the subject has sparked my interest).
TurtleGuy	Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 \| 03:35 PM I don't know what we can take from this but Justin Congdon, the scientist referenced in the article, says "Blanding's turtles are extremely long-lived". Turtle Studies on the University of Michigan's E. S. George Reserve Research on Blanding's turtles has increased in recent years because of their conservation concern. Blanding's turtles are gentle and seldom, if ever, attempt to bite while being handled by researchers. They reach maturity between 11 and 20 y and males and females are similar in body size. Blanding's turtles are extremely long-lived, with cohort generation times of approximately 37 years. Clutch size averages 10 eggs and one or fewer clutches are produced per year. They are primarily carnivorous with diets that are comprised of snails, crayfish, earthworms, insects and vertebrates. Do you think it acceptable to email him about this question?
The Curator in San Diego Member	Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 \| 03:46 PM I went through my own stage of being fascinated by the aging process of turtles. That was about two years ago. I think Justin Congdon would probably get a kick out of answering your question, if he has the time. Most academics love it when people show an interest in their work. Definitely keep me posted on what you find.
Hairy Houdini	Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 \| 07:41 PM Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't something similar claimed about sharks some years back?
TurtleGuy	Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 \| 03:48 AM You may be talking about sharks and cancer, which is also in the quiz. CLAIM: Sharks do not get cancer. ANSWER: FALSE. Sharks definitely do get cancer. However, they get it far less often than humans do. The idea that sharks are immune to cancer was popularized by the title of William Lane's 1992 book Sharks Don't Get Cancer. However, inside his book Lane admitted that sharks do get cancer. Although it is theorized that shark cartilage might inhibit the growth of tumor blood vessels, studies have shown that ingesting shark cartilage does not confer any anti-cancer benefits.
Paul	Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 \| 05:41 PM I'm fascinated by the bit where Alex says "I went through my own stage of being fascinated by the aging process of turtles" He never seezes to amaze me..... Out of a million...how many care about turtles...at all. THEN how many care about the aging process of them... 😊 brilliant
The Curator in San Diego Member	Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 \| 11:12 PM Paul, my wife could give you a much fuller list of the weird things that have consumed my attention at one time or another. She just rolls her eyes now whenever I tell her about whatever new subject I'm pursuing. I still haven't lived down the time I dragged her on a 100-mile detour to see the Tomb of the Man Who Believed the Earth Is Hollow (it wasn't much more than a weed-infested plot of land in a public park).
melinda	Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 \| 01:42 PM my turtle has a big fleshly looking black and red thing hanging from his butt hole what can I do ?
Hairy Houdini	Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 \| 01:47 PM Melinda, that would be a GeeDub Loaf hanging from yer Turtle... just pinch the loaf, and it will dry up and fall off...or, you could impeach it...you're quite welcome
Winona in USA Member	Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 \| 07:02 PM As much as I hate to be serious on the forum....I'm not that familiar with turtles, and haven't turned one over to look at their genetalia, but Melinda, is your turtle male? I don't know if this would be in any way similar, but when my iguana was going through puberty he started dropping his hemipenes temporarily, do turtles do the same thing? Also, at least in iguanas, occasionally they get seminal plugs. I'm not at all an expert on turtles, but could either of these be the situation?
David B.	Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 \| 03:32 AM CLAIM: Turtles never die of old age. ANSWER: Maybe. Maybe not. As far as I know (speaking as a former biologist), this is still a hypothesis used to explain the continued vitality and fertility of some reptile species over an extended age range. Obviously, empirical observations are a bit thin on the ground, given the timescales. From the NIH's National Library of Medicine: "On the other hand, turtles, tortoises and crocodiles continue to grow throughout life and are thus credited with slow or negligible senescence. Evidences and mechanisms of rapid or negligible senescence in reptiles are still fragmentary and unclear." It's an interesting observation, but overstated. Negligable senescense is apparently true of some rockfish species (with lifespans of over 200 years) but not of other, quite closely related, species (who live about a decade). Ascribing it to the whole turtle family is a bit strong. [Interestingly, this last fact holds out the hope that it's the result of a genetic 'trick' we could possibly learn and duplicate. Ask me again in the 22nd century.]
Maegan in Tampa, FL - USA Member	Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 \| 06:16 AM Right, I think that's what was initially established at the beginning. This wouldn't cover ALL types of turtles, but maybe just a few select ones... Also, Melinda - I'd get that thing to a vet. You probably don't want to be fiddling about with any turtle genitalia.
Penelope	Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 \| 09:54 PM Does anyone know why a snapping turtle would kill another snapping turtle? Is it territorial? There have been 2 dead turtles floating in a pond near my home on different occasions. Their head and neck all swollen up. There is still another large turtle in the pond that I believe killed the other 2. The one that is still alive was seen pushing at the last dead one and nudging at it. All 3 turtles are large in size. I would say their shells are approximately 16 inches across. Any information would be appreciated. Thankyou.
Boo in The Land of the Haggii... Member	Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 \| 11:16 PM Penelope, I would suggest asking that question on a turtle forum. This is a hoax forum and, as such, the chances of someone being able to answer your question are statistically lower here.
Mark-N-Isa in Midwest USA Member	Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 \| 12:16 AM They aren't above eating their own kind... that's one thing I know for sure. So perhaps it's due to lack of any other prey food???
DFStuckey	Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 \| 12:53 AM turtleguy, not only can ingesting shark cartilidge not protect against cancer, there are suggestions that it can give you Gulf War Syndrome. Some researchers suggest the use of shark cartilidge as a bonding protein in the multivaccine given to Gulf War troops may be the trigger to the syndrome as an allergic reaction.
Jason K	Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 \| 12:47 AM http://www.ese.u-psud.fr/epc/conservation/Publi/abstractr/AE_CHA99a.pdf#search="turtles%20senescence" This webpage would support the notion that while turtles do not age in the same way as humans, they are by no means immortal. The site indicates that box turtles can reproduce throughout their adult lives, in fact their reproductive rates increase as they age (perhaps to offset the increase in non-viable offspring). Interesting stuff. apparently there is some research into rockfish. There is a particular variety that can attain ages in excess of 200 years.
Jun	Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 \| 06:56 AM wow, this really is a great information. I always wanted to know whether turtles die of old age. thanks, I learn a lot from you
deafasapost	Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 \| 02:59 PM Harriet, a Galapagos turtle specimen collected by Charles Darwin recently died at 175 years old. Her age was well documented. A turtle in India died in 2006 that was reputed to be 255 yrs old, but her age could not be definitively proven. I question the relative lifespan of turtles in captivity. One article referenced above states that a particular turtle specie survives in the wild for up to 20 years and in captivity up to 40. My experience is limited (3 specimens), but two died at very early age. The third was my son's pet - an 8 yr old turtle that was captured in the wild. It did not adapt well to captivity and was chronically ill. On the advice of a turtle "expert" here in Texas, we released the turtle to the wild. Somewhere out there we hope that "Speedy" is wandering around oblivious to our short life spans. Speedy had $500 in Xrays and other treatments before he was released. Incidentally, Speedy would answer to his name.

Note: This thread is located in the Old Forum of the Museum of Hoaxes.