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Feces Cleanup Lands Teacher in Hot Water
Posted: 28 September 2005 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Merkins are weird. Here in Holland, this certainly would not have lead to the removal of a teacher (substitute or not). Rather, the kid that defecated would have been removed.

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Posted: 28 September 2005 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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So in Holland it’s permissable, even acceptable to force students to clean up feces as a form of punishment?  Seems very uncivilized, unhygienic, and disgusting to me, but then I’m an American.

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Posted: 28 September 2005 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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I think the point is that the person who had messed in the bathroom WAS UNKNOWN.  The teacher had other students clean it up.  The teacher put children in danger of being infected with feces-borne diseases by making them clean it up. 

The actual “poopatrator” as it were, was NOT KNOWN by the teacher.

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Posted: 28 September 2005 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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I don’t see the problem. When I was a student and at an excavation, each of us in turn had a duty to empty the buckets that were used as makeshift toilet into the cesspit. Those buckets had collected the full day products of about 20-30 students. Not just one excrement. A whole giant bucket full.

As long as you don’t eat the stuff, don’t smear your ass with it, but do wash your hands afterwards, there is no problem. I agree with Mort, hygiene concerns have gone to ridiculous extremes.

I think having to clean this was just a good lesson for these kids. If you befoul your surroundings on purpose, there is someone who will have to clean it, that is the lesson they learned. They all learned from it, including the unknown perpetrator.

Also, I think it is rather American to cry out if little WASP kids have to clean fecal matter, while all would probably find it perfectly appropriate if an Hispanic janitor would have to do it.

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Posted: 28 September 2005 01:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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These were fourth grade children, not adults who got took that responsibility voluntarily.  You weren’t forced to do to that, you did it because it was part of your studies.  These were children forced to clean up a mess that wasn’t even their own.  There is nothing right about that. 

The fact that you bring race into this indicates that you haven’t the slightest idea why this is wrong.  It makes no difference what race anyone is, if you take a job as a janitor then you’re expected to clean up messes like this.  It’s your job and you willingly agreed to it when you accepted it.  These children were FORCED to do this.  It was never part of their responsibilty.

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Posted: 28 September 2005 01:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Also, I think the teacher probably did not force them to clean the stuff with their bare-hands (if she did, than I agree that would be too gross…).

With standard cleaning tools, there is about as much health risk in this cleaning as there is from simply handling the door-knob of a toilet (and probably even less).

Al this talk about exposing kids to health danger is just typical American over-reacting. I bet there were several lawyers waving lawsuits on the doorstep of the school the next day.

Just remember, there are people who clean dirty toilets every day.

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Posted: 28 September 2005 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Yes there are.  If that’s the job they agreed to then so what?  People clean either they’re own or other peoples messes all the time because they made a choice to, but if they’re children, or even adults, being forced into it then it’s wrong.

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Heaven must be really boring, if you think about it logically.
All the angels must be snoring.  Who could stand perfection for eternity?

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Posted: 28 September 2005 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Charybdis - 28 September 2005 05:17 PM

These were fourth grade children, not adults who got took that responsibility voluntarily.  You weren’t forced to do to that, you did it because it was part of your studies.  These were children forced to clean up a mess that wasn’t even their own.  There is nothing right about that. 

The fact that you bring race into this indicates that you haven’t the slightest idea why this is wrong.  It makes no difference what race anyone is, if you take a job as a janitor then you’re expected to clean up messes like this.  It’s your job and you willingly agreed to it when you accepted it.  These children were FORCED to do this.  It was never part of their responsibilty.

It was their own mess. Someone in that classroom was responsible. As that someone did not step forward, it was the responsibility of the whole class as such. Also note, that it is not quite normal to defecate in a classroom.

I repeat: having to clean this was just a good lesson for these kids. If you befoul your surroundings on purpose, there is someone who will have to clean it, that is the lesson they learned. That someone could be you. That is the example that was set to them.

Yes, it was probably not fun to have to clean it up. Neither is it fun when one of your pupils taunts you by defecating in the classroom.

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The Kruger-Dunning effect is rampant on internet fora.
J. Kruger & D. Dunning (1999), Unskilled and unaware of it: how difficulties in recognizing one’s own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments. J Pers Soc Psychol. 77, 1121-1134

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Posted: 28 September 2005 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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As that someone did not step forward, it was the responsibility of the whole class as such.

No it’s wasn’t.  One person does something wrong so you punish everyone?  That’s always been wrong, no matter how common a practice it is.

This is not a lesson that is to be taught by the school.  If your university told you it was your ‘lesson’ to clean all the toilets one week would you have done it?  If not, why not?

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Heaven must be really boring, if you think about it logically.
All the angels must be snoring.  Who could stand perfection for eternity?

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Posted: 28 September 2005 01:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Charybdis - 28 September 2005 05:40 PM

As that someone did not step forward, it was the responsibility of the whole class as such.

No it’s wasn’t. One person does something wrong so you punish everyone? That’s always been wrong, no matter how common a practice it is.

This is not a lesson that is to be taught by the school. If your university told you it was your ‘lesson’ to clean all the toilets one week would you have done it? If not, why not?

That’s true, teachers are always keeping the whole class back because of one person acting stupidly. They expect everyone to take it out on the troublemaker, but they don’t seeing as the troublemaker is usually a popular.

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Posted: 28 September 2005 01:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Charybdis - 28 September 2005 05:40 PM

This is not a lesson that is to be taught by the school.  If your university told you it was your ‘lesson’ to clean all the toilets one week would you have done it?

If this was because someone out of the group of students I was part of had deliberately shit in the classroom, I would not be happy to carry out the task, but I would find it acceptable as such. Also, afterwards I would beat the hell out of the person who would have done the shitting, not the person who would order to clean up.

The real victim in this whole story, in my view, is that teacher.

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The Kruger-Dunning effect is rampant on internet fora.
J. Kruger & D. Dunning (1999), Unskilled and unaware of it: how difficulties in recognizing one’s own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments. J Pers Soc Psychol. 77, 1121-1134

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