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fire from water
Posted: 09 August 2006 10:26 AM   [ Ignore ]
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[url=http://hytechapps.com/aquygen]HHO/Aquygen

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Posted: 09 August 2006 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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It’s hydrogen and oxygen.  I’m unsure whether it’s a scam or a spoof.  The wording is odd -Aquygen

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Posted: 09 August 2006 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Well, electrolyses of water of course gives you hydrogen, which is highly explosive gas. But that is not quite novel, let alone a “new” gas.

So I’d say “Scam”.

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Posted: 09 August 2006 11:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Yeah, but read through it.  It’s rather silly sometimes.  I know know if it’s intentional or they’re just stupid.

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Heaven must be really boring, if you think about it logically.
All the angels must be snoring.  Who could stand perfection for eternity?

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Posted: 09 August 2006 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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I don’t think this is a scam… I just wonder if it is feasible.

With the rate that fossil fuels are being consumed and the amount of pollutants that are being created, it seems like a good alternative, but the whole key is feasibility. If it takes more energy to unlock the fuel from the water, then it is unlikely to be of much use, but it seems like they have found a way to create the fuel without a high output of energy. It is an electrolyses process as LaMa pointed out, so it costs energy to release the fuel… my question is, “how much?”

It looks like Denny Klein is convinced that this is a viable product but it still sounded a lot like the “water engine” to me…

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Life is what happens when you are busy making other plans. - John Lennon
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Posted: 09 August 2006 11:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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It’s a scam because it’s just hydrogen gas, not some mystical new bonding of hydrogen and water.  Creating hydrogen is very easy to do, and currently consumed more energy than you get back from burning the hydrogen.  It’s a very popular scam right now, but who knows?  In the future it will probably be cost effective without too much in the way of initial costs.  But right now it’s an energy sink, and nobody knows the long term cost of running a hydrogen car.

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Heaven must be really boring, if you think about it logically.
All the angels must be snoring.  Who could stand perfection for eternity?

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Posted: 09 August 2006 02:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Charybdis - 09 August 2006 03:53 PM

It’s a scam because it’s just hydrogen gas, not some mystical new bonding of hydrogen and water.  Creating hydrogen is very easy to do, and currently consumed more energy than you get back from burning the hydrogen.  It’s a very popular scam right now, but who knows?  In the future it will probably be cost effective without too much in the way of initial costs.  But right now it’s an energy sink, and nobody knows the long term cost of running a hydrogen car.

I’m not trying to argue with you LaMa & Chary, but it sounds like “Aquygen” is a molecular gas which includes both oxygen and hydrogen instead of straight hydrogen gas being liberated by electrolysis. I agree that the process consumes energy and there are costs involved… just thought it might be something someone here might have more information than I do or maybe a better insight to the processes involved. It was forwarded to me by someone in the Department of Environmental Quality here in Michigan via email for consideration and investigation, so I turned to my friends here as one of the sources - so I appreciate your analysis and comments. 

LaMa, I know you are a scientist, but I am not sure what your “specialty” is… can you give me a “hint”?

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Life is what happens when you are busy making other plans. - John Lennon
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Posted: 09 August 2006 03:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Water is the molecular bonding of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.  I don’t believe any other bonding is stable.

He specifically calls it an HHO Gas.  That’s water vapor.  No matter how you combine them, two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom equals water.  Granted, the hydrogen might be deuterium, but that would simply result in heavy water, which has been around since before WWII.  He doesn’t seem to mention deuterium, or any other isotopes for that matter, not that it would make a difference.

And no matter how you look at it, tungsten and bricks are not refractive, damnit.  It very much looks like he’s just throwing around big words without even knowing what they mean.  That’s why I’m not sure it’s not supposed to be a spoof.

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Heaven must be really boring, if you think about it logically.
All the angels must be snoring.  Who could stand perfection for eternity?

Not me. - George Hrab

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Posted: 09 August 2006 03:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Charybdis - 09 August 2006 07:03 PM

Water is the molecular bonding of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.  I don’t believe any other bonding is stable.

He specifically calls it an HHO Gas.  That’s water vapor.  No matter how you combine them, two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom equals water.  Granted, the hydrogen might be deuterium, but that would simply result in heavy water, which has been around since before WWII.  He doesn’t seem to mention deuterium, or any other isotopes for that matter, not that it would make a difference.

And no matter how you look at it, tungsten and bricks are not refractive, damnit.  It very much looks like he’s just throwing around big words without even knowing what they mean.  That’s why I’m not sure it’s not supposed to be a spoof.

I have to agree with you on this, not because I know the science of it accurately, but because I’ve followed in the periphery, the movement toward getting hydrogen from water (heavy) for quite a few years and it’s my understanding that it remains unstable and takes a tremendous amount of energy to even extract it making it far too cumbersome an alternative at this time.  Maybe on a very minor scale or in minute (and I mean VERY minute) quantities it could be done in a hobby or crafting platform?

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Posted: 09 August 2006 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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oppiejoe - 09 August 2006 06:55 PM

LaMa, I know you are a scientist, but I am not sure what your “specialty” is… can you give me a “hint”?


Nothing to do with chemistry and that kind of things. I specialize on stone tools

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The Kruger-Dunning effect is rampant on internet fora.
J. Kruger & D. Dunning (1999), Unskilled and unaware of it: how difficulties in recognizing one’s own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments. J Pers Soc Psychol. 77, 1121-1134

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Posted: 09 August 2006 04:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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The website has a recent CNN news clip (May 2006) that describes the process as costing 70 cents per hour to create 1500 litres of gas per hour… this doesn’t sound like an outrageous cost to me for that quantity of gas (although if it were truly only water vapor then I might agree with you - the scientific abstract link reports that gas generation is 10 times more efficient than the energy needed to create water vapor). I’m guessing it isn’t a spoof since he has a ton of people (big name companies like Lockheed and such) looking into this stuff according to the news clip and the abstract linked from the website presumably published in the “International Journal of Hydrogen Energy"specifically lists the HHO gas as NOT being an isotope of either hydrogen, oxygen or water “...distinctly different than the Brown* and other known gases.” It also confirms through scientific experiment that the molecular weight of the HHO gas is different from the “Brown” gas by +8.8% and a gas chronometer reading of HHO found peaks in areas where there are no known peaks for any other known gases and confirms that the composition of the gas is not water vapor.

I suppose you can get any results that you want to pay for and can obviously generate whatever information you need to support your cause, but I think that this is a legitimate enterprise. They are using the gas as an additive to conventional gas to increase efficiency of internal combustion rather than relying on it exclusively to power a vehicle, so there must be some limiting factor on how it would be possible to create enough of the gas with a space limited unit like in an automobile for “pure” gas use (if that is even possible). They are marketing the technology rather than hiding the “secrets” behind it. 

*a mixture of Oxygen & Hydrogen gases from studies initiated by Yull Brown in 1977 composed of 2/3 hydrogen & 1/3 oxygen

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Life is what happens when you are busy making other plans. - John Lennon
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Posted: 09 August 2006 05:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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LaMa - 09 August 2006 08:11 PM
oppiejoe - 09 August 2006 06:55 PM

LaMa, I know you are a scientist, but I am not sure what your “specialty” is… can you give me a “hint”?


Nothing to do with chemistry and that kind of things. I specialize on stone tools

Excellent… “back to the future” - building a better wheel through improvement of the basics.
Sounds interesting LaMa (bad joke coming…) and very heavy stuff. (sorry)  cheese

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Life is what happens when you are busy making other plans. - John Lennon
You can twist perceptions, reality won’t budge. - Rush

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