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Bothering me on several platforms….would you consider this abuse?
Posted: 11 April 2012 12:12 PM   [ Ignore ]
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I also put this on FB but I doubt anyone will respond and this is bothering me on several platforms. 

If you have a female dog you love and you had her mated then found out from the vet that the unborn puppies were, without a doubt after tests, going to be born not just crippled, but unable to walk or bark, unable to adequately breathe or suckle and would spend their lives in discomfort and pain, would not live long, and would require constant medical care even during that short lifespan (but you could afford to pay ongoing medical bills), would you permit them to be born anyway? Would this be considered animal abuse to let them be born to writhe in agonizing torture, or end the pregnancy?

Maybe I should be more obvious:

When do we set our critters above the same level of welfare and love than we do humans?

When is it ever appropriate to give birth to an infant we know very well is going to spend their life (as above) in great pain, physical distress and torture, and how can this be ever considered anything except deliberate child abuse?  If you are religious, since when is it appropriate to set another’s soul behind your own?  Since when do we decide an innocent infant is an appropriate sacrifice for ourselves?  When did the suffering of an innocent become a miracle and to WHOM is that suffering a miracle (surely NOT to the child)

When I read about children with Trisomy 18 (and other such) I was filled with such rage to even think parents who KNOW their unborn fetus is going to be in agony their entire life STILL feel that somehow that agony will enrich them in the eyes of any God.  The only thing I could think of was:  these parents are the same as those who deny medical treatment and who glory in the agony of others and should be pressed with criminal charges of child abuse, neglect, intentional harm and every other fitting charge.  Rick Santorum and his wife set themselves above others and their desires before even their last child’s welfare. 

 

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SilentTone: hulitoons blog of just plain silliness?
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Posted: 11 April 2012 02:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Well, to be fair, Huli, that falls under the catagory of ‘straw man’ argument.. but yes, I totally agree with you.

The problem is generally two-fold:

On the one hand you have people who think that ‘no, maybe the doctor made a mistake’, and are somehow convinced that everything will be ok.. mainly because everything surrounding a pregnancy is scary, including (and especially) terminating one.

On the other hand you have the die-hard religious sorts who scream about every life being sacred, and that such babies are God’s way of testing us - not punishing, mind you, unless you’re some godless heathen - but making us love Him better by blah blah blah… You get the idea.

Of course, the two aspects generally dovetail into one another nicely, so… yeah. Mess all around.

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1: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If it does what it says, you should have no problem with this.
2: What proof will you accept that you are wrong? You ask us to change our mind, but we cannot change yours?
3: It is not our responsability to disprove your claims, but rather your responsability to prove them.
4. Personal testamonials are not proof.

What part of ‘meow’ don’t you understand?

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Posted: 11 April 2012 02:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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I’m sorry to hear about you dogs Huli

Hope things work out for you.

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Posted: 11 April 2012 03:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Sharr, I have no dogs or cats.  This was just a story to try to understand mindset.

Robin I also know the platforms people use but this one:

.....
that such babies are God’s way of testing us

suggests the parents are being tested, not the child and it’s the child who suffers, not the parents.  What kind of demon belief is THAT cruel, demented, and irresponsible???

That’s what I just cannot wrap my head around.  What belief suggests that if the child suffers, somehow that makes the parents more able to enter into some kind of heaven???????????????????????????????????????

Especially since, if you believe in all of that, then you must also believe that all souls will eventually be born if they were meant to, so why not let that soul wait until another body begins to have the best option of a body that will at least sustain it.  Don’t most religions suggest that the body is ONLY temporary clothing? (or something to that effect).  If I make clothing that doesn’t fit or has fallen apart, I make new. 

We treat our animals with a higher respect than we do human beings and especially our children.  Forethought is more important than foreplay.

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SilentTone: hulitoons blog of just plain silliness?
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Posted: 11 April 2012 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Hypothetical Huli hmm, okay let me ask you this.

Assume the vet examines the dogs and declares that there’s nothing wrong with them
The dog has her litter (six beautiful healthy doggies) you give five of them away to friends
and decide to keep your favourite for yourself.

The dog grows up. A year later you’re out walking your dogs, when the puppy break free of her leash and runs under a nearby passing vehicle.
Although it wasn’t the driver’s fault, he is filled with remorse and offers to pay the vet bills.

You take the dog to the vet. Your puppy is very badky injured, both rear legs have to be amputated, the front left leg at the elbow also has to go. The vet tells you that the dogs hips are also so messed up that even with a fancy walking device your dog will never walk again, what is more, she will probably be in pain for the rest of her life.

What do you do now?
What do you do if it was a child and not a dog?

I’m not trying to say you’re wrong, Huli, I just want to give you another to look at it from.

Although I must admit, from your second post I’m wondering if I’m even addressing the right issue here smile

As for myself I have no children, I don’t know how I’d react if one was found to be that sick before being born.

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Smerk the cutest dragon
Lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
In Western Australi

Little Accipiter loved that girl enough
He told her jokes and crazy facts
And other forum stuff

Smerk the cutest dragon:
Traveled cross the sea,
To hunt her prey in foriegn lands,
And snuggle with Acci!

Smerk the cutest dragon
Is getting married now they say
Though little Accipiter
Has yet to name the day.

http://www.veshearman.com/

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Posted: 11 April 2012 05:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Not the same thing though Sharr.

Children with Trisomy 18 and 21 are unable to even mentally function.  Their brains are unable to keep automatic muscle movement going such as diaphram…they will stop breathing and their brain doesn’t know how to restart so the child lays there suffocating sometimes many times a day.  But of course they are not able to even understand what’s going on around them either.  They are born unable to walk, are very small, will not thrive and most don’t live past the first year of life though some will live into their 20s and 30s.  If parents are not available they must be instituted because they will remain under medical care for however long they live. 

Now, there is a huge difference in someone becoming ill and crippled but have understanding and capacity beyond their disease or injuries.  They can participate in life (even if a crippled dog) because they otherwise understand.  Those who are in pain can be given medication etc.  However, ask any human who is so crippled that they must only exist in an iron lung to breathe for them and are in such pain that medications are barely effective….ask them how they feel about their lives.  The difference is that if your mind and other areas continue to function, you have some control. 

Babies born with the extreme deficits as the Trisomy 18 and 21 have absolutely NO control…they can only suffer.

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SilentTone: hulitoons blog of just plain silliness?
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Posted: 11 April 2012 05:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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As I say Hulitoon, I really don’t know.
But yes, I understand what you’re saying.


It feels the same sometimes as people standing on street corners and telling people that if they don’t follow god their way, then they are going to hell.

Who died and made them God?

I actually remember seeing a couple of people on TV (I think it was some religious program I accidentally caught a minute of) They were talking about how all the people walking passed them were going to go to hell.
To me, if you beleive in hell, Pride is one of the deadly sins - it’s was those trying to condemn everyone else who would find themselves in the hot house.

I think I’ve digressed a little from the point. But If I read what you say correctly, then it is the ‘holier than thou’ attitude of the parents, the belief they are doing gods work by having the child, and then letting it die naturally that is really the crux of the matter.

As I say I have no children, I don’t know how I’d react. I did though, once know a Mormon woman who had left her church because her son was suffering in constant pain. She told me that she couldn’t follow any god who allowed such suffering (I think it was her son, might have been a friend’s son)

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Smerk the cutest dragon
Lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
In Western Australi

Little Accipiter loved that girl enough
He told her jokes and crazy facts
And other forum stuff

Smerk the cutest dragon:
Traveled cross the sea,
To hunt her prey in foriegn lands,
And snuggle with Acci!

Smerk the cutest dragon
Is getting married now they say
Though little Accipiter
Has yet to name the day.

http://www.veshearman.com/

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Posted: 11 April 2012 08:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Yes, Sharr, that’s more what I mean.  Crafty responded on FB not quite understanding what I’m talking about.  She leaned toward children who are merely slow or retarded but still aware, and this is NOT what I’m talking about so I needed to share a personal experience: 

Yes Shawna, those who are aware can.  I lived next door to a couple who had a son who was born like others with T-18.  At 20 years of age he had never been outside his crib, was roughly the same size as a 5 year old, had never spoken, sat up, and lived his live on an IV.  He could not eat, barely breath and seldom moved so he was covered with bedsores and I would hear them at night (in the summer time when the window was open), tending to him, changing IVs, catheters etc.  The ambulance came 1-3 times a week.  Neither parent dared go anywhere.  The cost to have a medical assistant was beyond them.

Joy?  He did eventually die, never having said one word to his parents, never having smiled or laughed.

This is what I’m talking about.  This person was never going to even ‘know’ life on any level but suffered beyond suffering.

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Posted: 14 April 2012 03:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Sorry to hear about that, not sure what to do.

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