http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/health/policy/14panel.html?_r=1&emc=eta1

WASHINGTON

continued from previous post

Ms. McCaughey, whose 1994 critique of Mr. Clinton

I’d like to add a bit of a note here:  The Washington Times is mentioned in the article and I think it might be enlightening to know just who ‘owns’ this paper—-

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/26/seongnam-wants-to-win-once-finally/

Seongnam was created in 1989 by Unification church leader Rev. Sun Myung Moon, who started the Peace Cup franchise and is the founder of The Washington Times.

During the 80s I worked for a very prestigious law firm in Washington DC and was there for 10 years.  During this time ‘Mr.’ Moon’s legal papers and briefs were constantly being brought to my department to be typed and edited so I knew nearly ALL the dealings that this gentleman was doing then and eventually found them so distasteful that I cringed every time his work came in.  I knew well and understood that this man was one of our biggest clients and so, in truth, a great part of my own salary was being funded by him and his group.  To appease or sooth my bristling soul, the attorneys told me that he was basically ‘inert’ albeit wealthy. 

I can tell you this, that at that time (I am chilled to think about the present), he was one of the most exploitative persons of human beings I had ever known.  For as often as he ‘appeared’ on paper and in audience to be a generous benefactor, under the table his true agenda was shattering.  I am not sure how many items listed in the site page given below are true or false…...but I’m inclined to believe what is listed there:

http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/moon.html

I’ve never understood why parts of the American people are so opposed to a health care system that would benefit everybody instead of just a few rich people.

LaMa - 14 August 2009 12:11 PM

I’ve never understood why parts of the American people are so opposed to a health care system that would benefit everybody instead of just a few rich people.

They have their death panels already for years. They are called: insurance companies (who kick them out of their policy when they get seriously ill).
They rather die than giving up a bit of free market.

Darwin selects in mysterious ways.

Unfairly Balanced - 14 August 2009 12:56 PM

LaMa - 14 August 2009 12:11 PM

I’ve never understood why parts of the American people are so opposed to a health care system that would benefit everybody instead of just a few rich people.

They have their death panels already for years. They are called: insurance companies )who kick them out of their policy when they get seriously ill).
They rather die than giving up a bit of free market.

Darwin selects in mysterious ways.

Yep, that’s it in a nutshell.  Most of the fear is the idea of having the option of being able to talk to your doctor every five years IF you want to, about what YOU want him/her to do if you’re dying, unconscious, and unable to make a decision AT THAT time,  to assure that YOUR wishes are followed. 

For some reason, a goodly number of people think that is a ‘death panel’.  BUT, By NOT permitting this option, most people will either have to write a living will, or pay an attorney at some time to make one for them without having the option of talking to someone credible about all those issues.  Without either of those options, that decision WILL be made by someone else other than you….apparently that’s what these folks want….they are actually saying ‘we want a death panel to determine this for us’.

I think the fear comes from not being able to choose how your health will be taken care of.  There are lots of stories in our news that nationalized health care will not pay for those who are chronically sick, or those whose health issues stem from unhealthy habits.  Here, if you pay for the insurance, and develop cancer because of smoking, as long as you stay current on the payments, the health insurance will cover any treatments needed.  It is rumored that with the government health insurance, these conditions will not be taken care of, and the people will be left to pay for their health care “out of pocket”.  I kinda think that’s how it should be anyways, if you cause your own bad health by having unhealthy habits, then it’s your own fault when you get sick.

Another fear that I’ve seen on the news is that people will use the system for any ailment, thus clogging up the system until it takes 2 months to get a doctor’s appointment.  Why purchase a box of bandaids at the store for 3$ when you can go to the doctor’s and get one for free?  Our own news scares us with the badness of the nationalized health care while out of the other side of it’s mouth it screams it’s awesomeness.

Come, have a look in Europe, were almost all health care systems are state-run or mostly state-run.

I can assure you that nobody

CarmenSense - 14 August 2009 01:24 PM

............Here, if you pay for the insurance, and develop cancer because of smoking, as long as you stay current on the payments, the health insurance will cover any treatments needed.  It is rumored that with the government health insurance, these conditions will not be taken care of, and the people will be left to pay for their health care “out of pocket”.  I kinda think that’s how it should be anyways, if you cause your own bad health by having unhealthy habits, then it’s your own fault when you get sick.

Another fear that I’ve seen on the news is that people will use the system for any ailment, thus clogging up the system until it takes 2 months to get a doctor’s appointment.  Why purchase a box of bandaids at the store for 3$ when you can go to the doctor’s and get one for free?  Our own news scares us with the badness of the nationalized health care while out of the other side of it’s mouth it screams it’s awesomeness.

I’m unsure that you are aware that nearly everyone (certainly not just smokers) do things without realizing it OR realizing it that will harm them:

1.  My brother was an athlete and a coach for many decades.  He ran at least five miles or more a day.  He was he believed, so did all of us, healthy because of all this….especially the jogging.  UNTIL he recently had to have both knees replaced.  He actually wore his knees out running according to his doctors and surgeons and he is NOT unique.

2.  Many people develop high cholesterol problems now being noted by the age of 30 because of how they ate as youngsters.  Very unhealthy lifestyles, yet many develop the high counts even when they ate what they were supposed to all their lives.  No matter because ALL these people or most are now on prescription statins, blood thinners and have tests run yearly or every six months.

3.  While juvenile diabetes happens, many people develop diabetes during pregnancy at very young ages, and older.  Sometimes it’s because of unhealthy lifestyles, eating too much sugar for their own particular bodies.  Doesn’t matter either way because they are now dependent on insulin either via syringe or pills, daily testing products and checkup tests every six months or more a year.

4.  Some jobs are just as unhealthy to individuals but are necessary because they need a paycheck.

I’m sure I could continue this list, all of us could really if you ‘think’ about it.

I believe you could find quite a few injuries, illnesses and chronic conditions brought about by what people have done to be healthy or to provide income. 

As to the second part of you comment Carmen some people are more prone to worry and fear about a developing condition than others.  It is not for anyone else to judge how they feel OR how often they call their doctor.  There are even more people, however, who will avoid going to a doctor for many many years no matter how much pain or agony they’re in.  They fear being told something they won’t be able to handle, or believe that if they stay away then they aren’t really sick OR they don’t trust doctors period.  These are the ones who will self medicate, refuse to get vaccinated etc. and then end up making the rest of us sick.

You’ve misinterpreted my post.  I’m simply saying if you smoke or drink excessively or do something else that is known as unhealthy for the body, then it’s your own fault if it causes you to have a deathly side effect.  Running for one’s health is a good idea.  Natural wear and tear does occur though.  I’m not saying in any way that your brother does deserve what happened to his knees.  And I am “thinking” about it.

CarmenSense - 14 August 2009 01:24 PM

I think the fear comes from not being able to choose how your health will be taken care of.  There are lots of stories in our news that nationalized health care will not pay for those who are chronically sick, or those whose health issues stem from unhealthy habits.  Here, if you pay for the insurance, and develop cancer because of smoking, as long as you stay current on the payments, the health insurance will cover any treatments needed.  It is rumored that with the government health insurance, these conditions will not be taken care of, and the people will be left to pay for their health care “out of pocket”.  I kinda think that’s how it should be anyways, if you cause your own bad health by having unhealthy habits, then it’s your own fault when you get sick.

Another fear that I’ve seen on the news is that people will use the system for any ailment, thus clogging up the system until it takes 2 months to get a doctor’s appointment.  Why purchase a box of bandaids at the store for 3$ when you can go to the doctor’s and get one for free?  Our own news scares us with the badness of the nationalized health care while out of the other side of it’s mouth it screams it’s awesomeness.

As Unfairly Balanced also pointed out, the experience in Europe with National Health Care proves otherwise. The things you mention above do not happen in Europe.

So it all is really an unfounded bunch of irrational fears. And, as Huli’s original post points out, one that seems to be deliberately fed by powers against a National Health Care system.

To us Dutch, who have a universal national health care system, those stories of “this is going to happen if…!” are completely idiotic paranoia and frankly, we really don’t get why people would be opposed to good health care for all.

It’s just feakingly weird to us to see how opposed some in the US are to it, and what stories they fabricate to justify that opposition.

I agree with LaMa and Unbalanced.  Americans are simply afraid of what they don’t understand and would rather stay in the middle of a battle rather than get to safety which is what these health plans give to everyone….and no, one person does not drain the rest.

But we’re actually getting a bit off subject though.  The arguments or fears are not so much about one person draining the medical system, but rather those who are misreading the ‘death’ area wherein an individual, if they wish, should be able to directly consult with their doctors about how they wish to proceed should they have an injury or illness determined incurable and they are at that time unable to express their wishes for either ‘letting them go peacefully and comfortably or whether the doctors should keep bringing them back or continuing excessive treatments to keep them alive even IF it is causing extreme agony. 

Currently, many people are looking back to the time of Hitler where his philosophy was that anyone counted as a ‘drain’ on society such as the senile, mentally retarded, etc. should be euthanized.  THIS is what is currently scaring people.  The suggestion that they counsel with their private physician about how they want their dying handled should it be out of their hands at the time has been interpreted as ‘the doctors have the right to murder us if we are very sick’.

The fact is that for many people it is VERY expensive to have a living will drawn up.  Many people also don’t have anyone to counsel with about this idea which is, in the end, part of life.  The person to talk with would be your physician so that IF that does happen and you are unable at that time to even tell anyone that you’re in pain or agony, it will be your wishes that had been discussed with your doctor long ago that will override any other person’s.

One example would be:  If I wasn’t able to tell anyone that I was in pain, agonising pain, I wasn’t able to express even that and the pain was only going to get worse I’d want my doctor know LONG before hand that if any such condition happened and I was in the hospital I would want a morphine drip that would take the pain away and also permit me to feel euphoric and not afraid.  IF you do NOT have this in a living will or if it was never discussed with your doctor, then chances are very high that you will not be given anything at all. 

I’m sorry, but I want my own wishes delivered.  I don’t want these in someone else’s hands.