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Posted: 14 August 2009 06:07 AM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/health/policy/14panel.html?_r=1&emc=eta1

WASHINGTON

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Posted: 14 August 2009 06:08 AM   [ # 1 ]
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continued from previous post

Ms. McCaughey, whose 1994 critique of Mr. Clinton

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Posted: 14 August 2009 07:04 AM   [ # 2 ]
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I’d like to add a bit of a note here:  The Washington Times is mentioned in the article and I think it might be enlightening to know just who ‘owns’ this paper—-

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/26/seongnam-wants-to-win-once-finally/

Seongnam was created in 1989 by Unification church leader Rev. Sun Myung Moon, who started the Peace Cup franchise and is the founder of The Washington Times.

During the 80s I worked for a very prestigious law firm in Washington DC and was there for 10 years.  During this time ‘Mr.’ Moon’s legal papers and briefs were constantly being brought to my department to be typed and edited so I knew nearly ALL the dealings that this gentleman was doing then and eventually found them so distasteful that I cringed every time his work came in.  I knew well and understood that this man was one of our biggest clients and so, in truth, a great part of my own salary was being funded by him and his group.  To appease or sooth my bristling soul, the attorneys told me that he was basically ‘inert’ albeit wealthy. 

I can tell you this, that at that time (I am chilled to think about the present), he was one of the most exploitative persons of human beings I had ever known.  For as often as he ‘appeared’ on paper and in audience to be a generous benefactor, under the table his true agenda was shattering.  I am not sure how many items listed in the site page given below are true or false…...but I’m inclined to believe what is listed there:

http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/moon.html

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Posted: 14 August 2009 08:11 AM   [ # 3 ]
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I’ve never understood why parts of the American people are so opposed to a health care system that would benefit everybody instead of just a few rich people.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 08:56 AM   [ # 4 ]
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LaMa - 14 August 2009 12:11 PM

I’ve never understood why parts of the American people are so opposed to a health care system that would benefit everybody instead of just a few rich people.

They have their death panels already for years. They are called: insurance companies (who kick them out of their policy when they get seriously ill).
They rather die than giving up a bit of free market.

Darwin selects in mysterious ways.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 09:23 AM   [ # 5 ]
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Unfairly Balanced - 14 August 2009 12:56 PM
LaMa - 14 August 2009 12:11 PM

I’ve never understood why parts of the American people are so opposed to a health care system that would benefit everybody instead of just a few rich people.

They have their death panels already for years. They are called: insurance companies )who kick them out of their policy when they get seriously ill).
They rather die than giving up a bit of free market.

Darwin selects in mysterious ways.

Yep, that’s it in a nutshell.  Most of the fear is the idea of having the option of being able to talk to your doctor every five years IF you want to, about what YOU want him/her to do if you’re dying, unconscious, and unable to make a decision AT THAT time,  to assure that YOUR wishes are followed. 

For some reason, a goodly number of people think that is a ‘death panel’.  BUT, By NOT permitting this option, most people will either have to write a living will, or pay an attorney at some time to make one for them without having the option of talking to someone credible about all those issues.  Without either of those options, that decision WILL be made by someone else other than you….apparently that’s what these folks want….they are actually saying ‘we want a death panel to determine this for us’.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 09:24 AM   [ # 6 ]
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I think the fear comes from not being able to choose how your health will be taken care of.  There are lots of stories in our news that nationalized health care will not pay for those who are chronically sick, or those whose health issues stem from unhealthy habits.  Here, if you pay for the insurance, and develop cancer because of smoking, as long as you stay current on the payments, the health insurance will cover any treatments needed.  It is rumored that with the government health insurance, these conditions will not be taken care of, and the people will be left to pay for their health care “out of pocket”.  I kinda think that’s how it should be anyways, if you cause your own bad health by having unhealthy habits, then it’s your own fault when you get sick.

Another fear that I’ve seen on the news is that people will use the system for any ailment, thus clogging up the system until it takes 2 months to get a doctor’s appointment.  Why purchase a box of bandaids at the store for 3$ when you can go to the doctor’s and get one for free?  Our own news scares us with the badness of the nationalized health care while out of the other side of it’s mouth it screams it’s awesomeness.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 09:36 AM   [ # 7 ]
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Come, have a look in Europe, were almost all health care systems are state-run or mostly state-run.

I can assure you that nobody

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Posted: 14 August 2009 10:05 AM   [ # 8 ]
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CarmenSense - 14 August 2009 01:24 PM

............Here, if you pay for the insurance, and develop cancer because of smoking, as long as you stay current on the payments, the health insurance will cover any treatments needed.  It is rumored that with the government health insurance, these conditions will not be taken care of, and the people will be left to pay for their health care “out of pocket”.  I kinda think that’s how it should be anyways, if you cause your own bad health by having unhealthy habits, then it’s your own fault when you get sick.

Another fear that I’ve seen on the news is that people will use the system for any ailment, thus clogging up the system until it takes 2 months to get a doctor’s appointment.  Why purchase a box of bandaids at the store for 3$ when you can go to the doctor’s and get one for free?  Our own news scares us with the badness of the nationalized health care while out of the other side of it’s mouth it screams it’s awesomeness.

I’m unsure that you are aware that nearly everyone (certainly not just smokers) do things without realizing it OR realizing it that will harm them:

1.  My brother was an athlete and a coach for many decades.  He ran at least five miles or more a day.  He was he believed, so did all of us, healthy because of all this….especially the jogging.  UNTIL he recently had to have both knees replaced.  He actually wore his knees out running according to his doctors and surgeons and he is NOT unique.

2.  Many people develop high cholesterol problems now being noted by the age of 30 because of how they ate as youngsters.  Very unhealthy lifestyles, yet many develop the high counts even when they ate what they were supposed to all their lives.  No matter because ALL these people or most are now on prescription statins, blood thinners and have tests run yearly or every six months.

3.  While juvenile diabetes happens, many people develop diabetes during pregnancy at very young ages, and older.  Sometimes it’s because of unhealthy lifestyles, eating too much sugar for their own particular bodies.  Doesn’t matter either way because they are now dependent on insulin either via syringe or pills, daily testing products and checkup tests every six months or more a year.

4.  Some jobs are just as unhealthy to individuals but are necessary because they need a paycheck.

I’m sure I could continue this list, all of us could really if you ‘think’ about it.

I believe you could find quite a few injuries, illnesses and chronic conditions brought about by what people have done to be healthy or to provide income. 

As to the second part of you comment Carmen some people are more prone to worry and fear about a developing condition than others.  It is not for anyone else to judge how they feel OR how often they call their doctor.  There are even more people, however, who will avoid going to a doctor for many many years no matter how much pain or agony they’re in.  They fear being told something they won’t be able to handle, or believe that if they stay away then they aren’t really sick OR they don’t trust doctors period.  These are the ones who will self medicate, refuse to get vaccinated etc. and then end up making the rest of us sick.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 11:44 AM   [ # 9 ]
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You’ve misinterpreted my post.  I’m simply saying if you smoke or drink excessively or do something else that is known as unhealthy for the body, then it’s your own fault if it causes you to have a deathly side effect.  Running for one’s health is a good idea.  Natural wear and tear does occur though.  I’m not saying in any way that your brother does deserve what happened to his knees.  And I am “thinking” about it.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 01:04 PM   [ # 10 ]
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CarmenSense - 14 August 2009 01:24 PM

I think the fear comes from not being able to choose how your health will be taken care of.  There are lots of stories in our news that nationalized health care will not pay for those who are chronically sick, or those whose health issues stem from unhealthy habits.  Here, if you pay for the insurance, and develop cancer because of smoking, as long as you stay current on the payments, the health insurance will cover any treatments needed.  It is rumored that with the government health insurance, these conditions will not be taken care of, and the people will be left to pay for their health care “out of pocket”.  I kinda think that’s how it should be anyways, if you cause your own bad health by having unhealthy habits, then it’s your own fault when you get sick.

Another fear that I’ve seen on the news is that people will use the system for any ailment, thus clogging up the system until it takes 2 months to get a doctor’s appointment.  Why purchase a box of bandaids at the store for 3$ when you can go to the doctor’s and get one for free?  Our own news scares us with the badness of the nationalized health care while out of the other side of it’s mouth it screams it’s awesomeness.

As Unfairly Balanced also pointed out, the experience in Europe with National Health Care proves otherwise. The things you mention above do not happen in Europe.

So it all is really an unfounded bunch of irrational fears. And, as Huli’s original post points out, one that seems to be deliberately fed by powers against a National Health Care system.

To us Dutch, who have a universal national health care system, those stories of “this is going to happen if…!” are completely idiotic paranoia and frankly, we really don’t get why people would be opposed to good health care for all.

It’s just feakingly weird to us to see how opposed some in the US are to it, and what stories they fabricate to justify that opposition.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 01:10 PM   [ # 11 ]
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I agree with LaMa and Unbalanced.  Americans are simply afraid of what they don’t understand and would rather stay in the middle of a battle rather than get to safety which is what these health plans give to everyone….and no, one person does not drain the rest.

But we’re actually getting a bit off subject though.  The arguments or fears are not so much about one person draining the medical system, but rather those who are misreading the ‘death’ area wherein an individual, if they wish, should be able to directly consult with their doctors about how they wish to proceed should they have an injury or illness determined incurable and they are at that time unable to express their wishes for either ‘letting them go peacefully and comfortably or whether the doctors should keep bringing them back or continuing excessive treatments to keep them alive even IF it is causing extreme agony. 

Currently, many people are looking back to the time of Hitler where his philosophy was that anyone counted as a ‘drain’ on society such as the senile, mentally retarded, etc. should be euthanized.  THIS is what is currently scaring people.  The suggestion that they counsel with their private physician about how they want their dying handled should it be out of their hands at the time has been interpreted as ‘the doctors have the right to murder us if we are very sick’.

The fact is that for many people it is VERY expensive to have a living will drawn up.  Many people also don’t have anyone to counsel with about this idea which is, in the end, part of life.  The person to talk with would be your physician so that IF that does happen and you are unable at that time to even tell anyone that you’re in pain or agony, it will be your wishes that had been discussed with your doctor long ago that will override any other person’s.

One example would be:  If I wasn’t able to tell anyone that I was in pain, agonising pain, I wasn’t able to express even that and the pain was only going to get worse I’d want my doctor know LONG before hand that if any such condition happened and I was in the hospital I would want a morphine drip that would take the pain away and also permit me to feel euphoric and not afraid.  IF you do NOT have this in a living will or if it was never discussed with your doctor, then chances are very high that you will not be given anything at all. 

I’m sorry, but I want my own wishes delivered.  I don’t want these in someone else’s hands.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 01:19 PM   [ # 12 ]
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What’s perhaps happening, is that Americans feel very well that their elite is unscrupulous. That this is the downside of their “[/i]Freedom in everything and no Nanny State[/i]”: they created an elite without conscience, people for whom sheer profit sanctions everything, and human lives are subordinate to profit (and who worked themselves up on that credo).

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Posted: 14 August 2009 01:21 PM   [ # 13 ]
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LaMa - 14 August 2009 05:04 PM

As Unfairly Balanced also pointed out, the experience in Europe with National Health Care proves otherwise. The things you mention above do not happen in Europe.

So it all is really an unfounded bunch of irrational fears. And, as Huli’s original post points out, one that seems to be deliberately fed by powers against a National Health Care system.

To us Dutch, who have a universal national health care system, those stories of “this is going to happen if…!” are completely idiotic paranoia and frankly, we really don’t get why people would be opposed to good health care for all.

It’s just feakingly weird to us to see how opposed some in the US are to it, and what stories they fabricate to justify that opposition.

I’m not saying I agree with these ideas, I’m just listing what the news has shown us.  I no longer watch most news broadcasts as they are generally too graphic and sensational.  It’s almost like watching soap operas.  I find the news papers here a little better at reporting news accurately, and I go to the drudge report for news.  Unfortunately, many people don’t realize the news is only reporting what will get them more viewers. 

I’m kinda excited for a nationalized health care.  It would be nice for once to not have to worry about how to pay for insurance, and when it might be canceled.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 01:22 PM   [ # 14 ]
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Who is going to pay for it is my main concern.  I assume the rich.  What is rich though? 

I would love to have a system where healthcare is free, I just don’t think it is that easy.  This is a huge country with millions and millions of illegals who will be using the system, (somehow, how I don’t understand) and not paying into it.  And honestly the way Washington seems to boondoggle up everything else up they try, I don’t see any good coming out of it besides a nightmare.  But hey lets push it through NOW!  Do it Do It!  DO IT!!!

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Posted: 14 August 2009 01:28 PM   [ # 15 ]
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N E O - 14 August 2009 05:22 PM

Who is going to pay for it is my main concern.  I assume the rich.  What is rich though? 

I would love to have a system where healthcare is free, I just don’t think it is that easy.  This is a huge country with millions and millions of illegals who will be using the system, (somehow, how I don’t understand) and not paying into it.  And honestly the way Washington seems to boondoggle up everything else up they try, I don’t see any good coming out of it besides a nightmare.  But hey lets push it through NOW!  Do it Do It!  DO IT!!!

Yup, that’s the part I’m not excited about.  This state alone has so many people who are illegal, I can’t even wrap my mind around trying to pay for their health care with the current economic situation this country is in.  Making nationalized health care is going to give illegals even more reason to stay, or have their friends join them.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 01:39 PM   [ # 16 ]
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Unfairly Balanced - 14 August 2009 01:36 PM

Come, have a look in Europe, were almost all health care systems are state-run or mostly state-run.

I can assure you that nobody

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Posted: 14 August 2009 01:39 PM   [ # 17 ]
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LaMa - 14 August 2009 05:04 PM

As Unfairly Balanced also pointed out, the experience in Europe with National Health Care proves otherwise. The things you mention above do not happen in Europe.

That doesn’t stop the people here from worrying that it will happen, though.  Besides which, the opponents of nationalised health care like to point out the higher levels of taxes in most European nations, and of course voters can almost always be counted on to vote against anything that raises taxes.

So really, it seems to be the fear of higher taxes and of no options that worries people, whether those fears are justified or not.

And granted, all of those fears are possible.  It all depends on how the laws are written and how the system is set up.  The US is different in government and organisation and overall variety (and size, for that matter) than is any European nation that has nationalised health care, and so any system set up in the US would have to be a bit different than any European system.  So just because something works in Holland or Britain or wherever is no absolute guarantee that it will work in the US.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 01:43 PM   [ # 18 ]
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Are they planning to do away with private healthcare altogether?
If not, I don’t really see how the ‘no options’ thing works.
(Over here, we have the NHS, but one can always choose to go private if one wants to and can afford it.)

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Posted: 14 August 2009 01:47 PM   [ # 19 ]
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Boo - 14 August 2009 05:43 PM

Are they planning to do away with private healthcare altogether?
If not, I don’t really see how the ‘no options’ thing works.
(Over here, we have the NHS, but one can always choose to go private if one wants to and can afford it.)

Here’s the system as it currently stands.  I’m having a hard time finding a comprehensive declaration of what the Obama administration’s planned reforms are, but this page seems to list much of what they want passed into law.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 02:00 PM   [ # 20 ]
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Accipiter - 14 August 2009 05:39 PM

The US is different in government and organisation and overall variety (and size, for that matter) than is any European nation that has nationalised health care, and so any system set up in the US would have to be a bit different than any European system.

I don’t think that really matters. For cost per head of population issues like this, it doesn’t matter whether you have 15 or 150 million inhabitants really.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 02:03 PM   [ # 21 ]
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On a related topic…
In an editorial from Investor’s Business Daily (which has since been changed) came this quote:

People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.

Anyone see the flaw in their logic?
😉

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Posted: 14 August 2009 02:08 PM   [ # 22 ]
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Boo - 14 August 2009 06:03 PM

On a related topic…
In an editorial from Investor’s Business Daily (which has since been changed) came this quote:

People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.

Anyone see the flaw in their logic?
😉

Heheheh….talking about a blunder :-p

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Posted: 14 August 2009 02:09 PM   [ # 23 ]
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LaMa - 14 August 2009 06:00 PM
Accipiter - 14 August 2009 05:39 PM

The US is different in government and organisation and overall variety (and size, for that matter) than is any European nation that has nationalised health care, and so any system set up in the US would have to be a bit different than any European system.

I don’t think that really matters. For cost per head of population issues like this, it doesn’t matter whether you have 15 or 150 million inhabitants really.

Size of population doesn’t really matter too much, though geographical size could present a problem (how to set up a system that provides the nationally-mandated level of health care to places such as Alaska, for example, where the population density is three people per hundred square miles).  The Netherlands and Britain and such countries have some small scattered populations on islands and suchlike, but they have nothing on the sheer scale that the US has.  It would take a good bit of careful organisation to make a system that covers those situations well.

Then there is a whole confusing tangle of what things are the sole responsibilities of the individual states, what are the powers of the national government, and so on.  In many respects, the individual states are far more autonomous than is the case in most Western European countries.  Plus there have been a whole bunch of laws put in effect in the last century severely restricting the government’s interactions with private businesses, which includes health insurance and health care providers.  All of those laws and limitations will be at least slightly different than similar things in other countries.  Any health care program would have to be careful to account for all of that, or else somebody somewhere will eventually take it all to court and the whole system will have to be torn up.

I’m not saying that it isn’t possible for a good nationalised system to be set up.  Just that it would have to be somewhat different than European versions, so European versions aren’t necessarily a good model to go by.

Boo - 14 August 2009 06:03 PM

On a related topic…
In an editorial from Investor’s Business Daily (which has since been changed) came this quote:

People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.

Anyone see the flaw in their logic?
😉

Yup:  he’s not physically handicapped.  He’s quite good at physics, actually.  Silly people!

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Posted: 14 August 2009 02:12 PM   [ # 24 ]
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Boo - 14 August 2009 05:43 PM

Are they planning to do away with private healthcare altogether?
If not, I don’t really see how the ‘no options’ thing works.
(Over here, we have the NHS, but one can always choose to go private if one wants to and can afford it.)

I don’t think most people could afford it, which is what the problem is now.  I know if we get this system in place, there is know way my employer or any other is going to offer private health care coverage.  They have already cut out all of my family from coverage as it is now.

My American blood running through my veins screams NO! government was never intended to do this.  Our constitution specifically outlines the Federal governments powers and this ain’t one of them.  But it seems inevitable that the government will eventually take over or have a hand in almost everything.  Call it paranoia if you want, but I don’t trust them to have my best interest in mind all the time.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 02:17 PM   [ # 25 ]
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N E O - 14 August 2009 06:12 PM
Boo - 14 August 2009 05:43 PM

Are they planning to do away with private healthcare altogether?
If not, I don’t really see how the ‘no options’ thing works.
(Over here, we have the NHS, but one can always choose to go private if one wants to and can afford it.)

I don’t think most people could afford it, which is what the problem is now.  I know if we get this system in place, there is know way my employer or any other is going to offer private health care coverage.  They have already cut out all of my family from coverage as it is now.

My American blood running through my veins screams NO! government was never intended to do this.  Our constitution specifically outlines the Federal governments powers and this ain’t one of them.  But it seems inevitable that the government will eventually take over or have a hand in almost everything.  Call it paranoia if you want, but I don’t trust them to have my best interest in mind all the time.


It seems to me that in the mind of many Americans, the Government seems not to represent the People, even though it should in a Democracy.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 02:20 PM   [ # 26 ]
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LaMa - 14 August 2009 06:17 PM

It seems to me that in the mind of many Americans, the Government seems not to represent the People, even though it should in a Democracy.

Remember that not all that long ago was a very large war in the US, mostly regarding whether or not the national government or the local governments should be dominant.  And though the national government’s supporters won that war, the feeling that local governments should have more say in things and the national government less is by no means fading away.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 02:21 PM   [ # 27 ]
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LaMa - 14 August 2009 06:17 PM


It seems to me that in the mind of many Americans, the Government seems not to represent the People, even though it should in a Democracy.

We left democracy behind and replaced it with safety.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 02:21 PM   [ # 28 ]
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Well it should be a representative republic, but that is a different conversation. 

I really don’t think either party represents their constitutes properly.  I think they forget that they are civil servants, not an upper ruling class telling us little people how to live while living by a different set of rules.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 02:24 PM   [ # 29 ]
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Accipiter - 14 August 2009 06:20 PM
LaMa - 14 August 2009 06:17 PM

It seems to me that in the mind of many Americans, the Government seems not to represent the People, even though it should in a Democracy.

Remember that not all that long ago was a very large war in the US, mostly regarding whether or not the national government or the local governments should be dominant.  And though the national government’s supporters won that war, the feeling that local governments should have more say in things and the national government less is by no means fading away.

We were founded on the principle of a smaller central government to move away from the current situation in England.  But we have strayed far from that.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 03:48 PM   [ # 30 ]
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I don’t think the majority of Americans feel the way the media shows Americans reacting.  The media here only shows the loudest group even when it is the minority.  I do think to look down on America as a whole is wrong.  To assume the whole country is backwards, unlearned or afraid of new ideas is the same as saying all black people are lazy, or all white men are serial killers.  It’s a generalization that is unfair and incorrect. 

The same reasoning applies to the claims that the health care will not be adequate.  From all that I have heard, the health care will be the same as the medicaid offered currently.  Neo and I had the kids on that when we lived in Missouri and it was the best health insurance we’ve ever had for them.  No freaking out because we have to pay for something the insurance SAID it would cover, and the pamphlets SAID were covered, but the doctors or nurses submitted the paperwork wrong, so now it’s NOT covered.  The biggest complaint that I’ve heard that actually contained any validity were the arguments that the doctors would not make as much money anymore since the prices on all procedures would have a cap.  Plus the private insurance agencies would have high layoff numbers since many people would no longer pay for insurance that is inferior when they can get much better for free.  I’m a firm believer that more than half the reason private insurance costs so much is because it hires people to find reasons to reject claims, and doctors charge more than necessary since they need to hire so many people to file the claims and keep sending notices to patients who still owe money.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 03:50 PM   [ # 31 ]
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There are a few things being forgotten here:

We citizens are the ones who hire the officials that then ‘manage’ our government.  We hire our senators, representatives and our president to manage the things that matter to us in our lives. 

The reason Health Care is such an issue isn’t because healthcare professionals or even the pharmaceutical companies or corporations have made it so, it’s an issue because literally millions of people, citizens including parents of babies and children have cried out for help in this area.  The government is responding to what the citizens have asked.

It is also true that there is always a price to pay, yes for that ‘safety’ as Carmen put it and having the ability to access healthcare makes everyone safe.

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Posted: 14 August 2009 04:01 PM   [ # 32 ]
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CarmenSense - 14 August 2009 07:48 PM

I don’t think the majority of Americans feel the way the media shows Americans reacting.  The media here only shows the loudest group even when it is the minority.  I do think to look down on America as a whole is wrong.  To assume the whole country is backwards, unlearned or afraid of new ideas is the same as saying all black people are lazy, or all white men are serial killers.  It’s a generalization that is unfair and incorrect.

I don’t think anyone here does look down on America as a whole.
I find people who would dismiss a whole country, or skin colour, or gender, as being useless to debate with - I’ve encountered this in my personal life when I had an argument about racism with a co-worker. He claimed ‘all black people…’ and I pointed out that not all white people agreed, else we wouldn’t be having the argument, so why should he assume all black people agreed?

I know a lot of Americans (mostly online) and you probably couldn’t get more than two of them to agree on any one subject.
:lol:

Anyway, my point was that as soon as you lump people into ‘them’ rather than ‘us’, be it by country, skin colour, gender, sexuality, child-bearing or childlessness, smoker or non-smoker, political party, religion, or whatever, you become a bigot.

And I’ve now rambled enough, so I’ll shut up.
😉

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Posted: 15 August 2009 12:35 AM   [ # 33 ]
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I think I personally have three major concerns about the pending health care legislation:

1.  There seems to be an unnecessary rush to “do it NOW”.  For some reason the thought or idea of long introspection is put to the side on this issue.  How is a fair, comprehensive, balanced MAJOR health care reform package to be designed without at least a little serious thought?  Why the rush?

2.  How is it to be funded?  There seems to be the idea that “the rich can pay for it.”  What most people fail to realize is that when you make the “rich” pay for something, they tend to stop making quite so much money. Which means less in taxes/revenue.  Which means a drive to raise their taxes. And so on.  Not nly that, but a quote i read somewhere went something like this,” The government cannot give away what it has not first taken.  To give something to someone who hasn’t earned it, you must first take it from someone who has earned it, but then doesn’t get it.”  It creates an atmosphere of underachievement.  Why work harder and make more money if the government is merely going to take it away?  Right now taxes on somoene making 200,000 dollars is something close to 40 percent.  That means that these “rich” people work 4 months of the year for free.  It doesn’t seem fair.

3.  This is the government we are talking about.  They just took control of most banks, financial institutions, and now, auto makers.  They are notorious for mucking things up and making things cost WAY more than similar private industry programs cost.  Gov’t overhead is already VERY high.  And now they want to run health care too?  I shudder to think how fast the costs on something like this will sky-rocket out of control.  Soon we will reach a point where the largest employer in the country isn’t the free market, but is the gov’t itself.  Then it truly will be a case of them taking our money from us, deducting the handling fees for doing so, then giving what is left back to us.  Not an enviable proposition.

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Posted: 15 August 2009 03:13 AM   [ # 34 ]
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As a selfemployed here in Spain, I pay 249 euros per month for my social security.
That

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Posted: 15 August 2009 03:19 AM   [ # 35 ]
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hulitoons - 14 August 2009 07:50 PM

...

We citizens are the ones who hire the officials that then ‘manage’ our government.  We hire our senators, representatives and our president to manage the things that matter to us in our lives. 

I thought they were bought.

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Posted: 15 August 2009 05:24 AM   [ # 36 ]
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DavePrime - 15 August 2009 04:35 AM

2.  How is it to be funded?  There seems to be the idea that “the rich can pay for it.”  What most people fail to realize is that when you make the “rich” pay for something, they tend to stop making quite so much money. Which means less in taxes/revenue.  Which means a drive to raise their taxes. And so on.  Not nly that, but a quote i read somewhere went something like this,” The government cannot give away what it has not first taken.  To give something to someone who hasn’t earned it, you must first take it from someone who has earned it, but then doesn’t get it.”  It creates an atmosphere of underachievement.  Why work harder and make more money if the government is merely going to take it away?  Right now taxes on somoene making 200,000 dollars is something close to 40 percent.  That means that these “rich” people work 4 months of the year for free.  It doesn’t seem fair.


In our Dutch system EVERYBODY, not just “the rich”, pays an amount of their income towards universal health care. The whole idea is to spread the costs over the full population (and the full population benefits in return).

By the way, “the rich” have money enough. They are less affected by a small amount for Health Care than a single mother on a minimum wage will be. I really don’t think that raising taxes in order to pay benefits for all like health care will lead to underachievement. If that would be the case, our Dutch economy would be in ruin as we have a profoundly larger tax pressure than the US. In reality, we are among the most well-to-do nations in the World.

The USA and Europe clearly go on different ideologies here. Here in Europe, we go by the notion that some things that are for the benefit of all (directly or indirectly) will be payed by all (in the form of taxes), whether you directly make use of it or not. It is seen as being to the benefit of the whole country. It includes money for a good educational system for all, roads and other infrastructure, universal health care of a good standard, social welfare to support those who get fired or ill or are born disabled etc. We view this as communal responsibilites and hence pay for it communally, even if we don’t use all of it personally.
Americans seem not willing to pay for things they do not directly reap from themselves; and view paying for a common cause they do not directly reap from as “money I earned going to someone who didn’t earn it, and that is wrong”. To us Europeans, that is selfish.

3.  This is the government we are talking about.  They just took control of most banks, financial institutions, and now, auto makers.  They are notorious for mucking things up and making things cost WAY more than similar private industry programs cost.  Gov’t overhead is already VERY high.  And now they want to run health care too?  I shudder to think how fast the costs on something like this will sky-rocket out of control.  Soon we will reach a point where the largest employer in the country isn’t the free market, but is the gov’t itself.  Then it truly will be a case of them taking our money from us, deducting the handling fees for doing so, then giving what is left back to us.  Not an enviable proposition.


You seem to forget here about the WHY of your governments interventions in the recent banking world etc.  They did it because the top managers in those branches made a total mess of it out of pure greed and shortsightedness, to the point of this total mess afflicting the lives of not only millions of Americans, but the World as a whole. Seems your Free Market isn’t doing much better than a government regulated market.

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Posted: 15 August 2009 06:14 AM   [ # 37 ]
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DavePrime - 15 August 2009 04:35 AM

I think I personally have three major concerns about the pending health care legislation:

1.  There seems to be an unnecessary rush to “do it NOW”.  For some reason the thought or idea of long introspection is put to the side on this issue.  How is a fair, comprehensive, balanced MAJOR health care reform package to be designed without at least a little serious thought?  Why the rush?

Dave this hasn’t JUST come up, nor is it a sudden rush.  This is an issue that the governments both Federal, States and Countys have been working on for a number of years.  It has been primarily falling on each of the States and Countys though to find ways to get some kind of health care to those uninsured….. so this also answers your next question as well: 

2.  How is it to be funded?  There seems to be the idea that “the rich can pay for it.”  What most people fail to realize is that when you make the “rich” pay for something, they tend to stop making quite so much money. Which means less in taxes/revenue.  Which means a drive to raise their taxes. And so on.  Not nly that, but a quote i read somewhere went something like this,” The government cannot give away what it has not first taken.  To give something to someone who hasn’t earned it, you must first take it from someone who has earned it, but then doesn’t get it.”  It creates an atmosphere of underachievement.  Why work harder and make more money if the government is merely going to take it away?  Right now taxes on somoene making 200,000 dollars is something close to 40 percent.  That means that these “rich” people work 4 months of the year for free.  It doesn’t seem fair.

So far we have ALL been paying whether through employment if we have it, out of pocket if we have it, OR for the particular little programs the State or County wherein we live we pay through taxes (in some cases lottery games etc.).  We have been paying for health care all along and according to our juristiction, we may be paying more than our neighboring jurisdiction.

3.  This is the government we are talking about.  They just took control of most banks, financial institutions, and now, auto makers.  They are notorious for mucking things up and making things cost WAY more than similar private industry programs cost.  Gov’t overhead is already VERY high.  And now they want to run health care too?  I shudder to think how fast the costs on something like this will sky-rocket out of control.  Soon we will reach a point where the largest employer in the country isn’t the free market, but is the gov’t itself.  Then it truly will be a case of them taking our money from us, deducting the handling fees for doing so, then giving what is left back to us.  Not an enviable proposition.

I find it interesting that this President has said on many occasions ‘I can’t do this alone, I need YOUR help; I need YOU to get involved’.  I believe we’re seeing the beginnings of this now.  The last administration (and many before it) carefully screened anyone permitted to be involved in ‘Town Meetings’.  This administration isn’t doing that…..the result is that everyone is voicing opinions even if at the moment they’re acting like spoiled children.  Instead of any constructive ideas being formulated, these citizens are simply screaming ‘NO NOT THAT WAY!’  It IS our government from the lowest to highest and the best way to help each other is:

If you don’t like an idea(s) don’t just scream it down, create one(s) that you believe will work and then present that idea!  Show why it will work and remember, that takes time, thought, and research.  It means you call or write to your Representative, Senator, Mayor, Governor.

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Posted: 15 August 2009 08:04 AM   [ # 38 ]
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hulitoons - 15 August 2009 10:14 AM

If you don’t like an idea(s) don’t just scream it down, create one(s) that you believe will work and then present that idea!  Show why it will work and remember, that takes time, thought, and research.  It means you call or write to your Representative, Senator, Mayor, Governor.

This is the idea I was raised on.  You can dislike something all you want, but if you want to complain about it, you have to offer up a new suggestion.  You can’t just go to someone in charge and say, “I don’t like it, do something about it.”

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Posted: 15 August 2009 09:05 AM   [ # 39 ]
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ehm…

If everybody paid 249 euros/dollars as a basic fee. And then according to income a bit more.
Everybody would be taken care of.
Like here in Europe.

But hell. FOX News shouts that

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Posted: 15 August 2009 09:49 AM   [ # 40 ]
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I am a firm believer in getting involved.  And of communal responsibility.

I think that the best way to fund such a system would be to charge a flat percentage of every citizen’s income. 10 or 15% would likely fund that and every other gov’t program.  then we could do away with the tax structure that is currently used. (Which is so slanted and full of holes that it is almost impossible to understand or administer.)  And lest anyone think that I am suggesting something that would not affect me personally, doing a flat fee would cost me thousands a year in “leveling” income that I currently receive from the gov’t every year.

One of the fears, perhaps, is that the recent financial crisis (Which was extremely complicated, NOT just a matter f a few greedy flks, but I digress) and resulting stimulus bill basically funded every Democrat’s wet dream for the last twenty years.  Every pork barrel project, every spending accommodation was thrown in for good measure.  All without much thought to who or how it will all be funded.  The U.S. economy is self-correcting if left to itself.  Painful yes.  But necessary. (Look at the IT bubble in the late 1990’s.)  By stepping in, all the gov’t has really done is delay the inevitable.  The correction MUST take place.  That’s how the economy works.

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Posted: 15 August 2009 10:20 AM   [ # 41 ]
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DavePrime - 15 August 2009 01:49 PM

I am a firm believer in getting involved.  And of communal responsibility.

I think that the best way to fund such a system would be to charge a flat percentage of every citizen’s income. 10 or 15% would likely fund that and every other gov’t program.  then we could do away with the tax structure that is currently used. (Which is so slanted and full of holes that it is almost impossible to understand or administer.)  And lest anyone think that I am suggesting something that would not affect me personally, doing a flat fee would cost me thousands a year in “leveling” income that I currently receive from the gov’t every year.
.

I think too that this formula would present fairness across the board.  It’s also based on payment for even health care on a sliding scale as well. 

I’m aware that still the wealthy may and probably would find legal ways to hide income and so would moderate incomes as well.  There will always be swindlers and that’s something that our authorities are even now showing they can and DO step in and prosecute. 

At present the tax laws and guidelines are so complex that most don’t clearly understand all that is going on so we have to depend mightily upon tax preparers to do this paperwork for us and I find that unacceptable as well.  So, I do lean with Dave on this issue which can then be applied to other programs that would initiate fairness across the entire country, and remove the high disparity among jurisdictions.

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Posted: 15 August 2009 10:25 AM   [ # 42 ]
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The painfull bit somehow always goes to the bottom end it seems, instead of spreading it evenly.
A 100 bucks for a single mother is alot more hurtfull than 10 grand for amillionaire.
That

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Posted: 15 August 2009 11:39 AM   [ # 43 ]
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Here is a very simple question: Who would benefit more from their population being healthy, strong and able to work and help build/ keep the economy; the government or the insurance companies?

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Posted: 15 August 2009 12:20 PM   [ # 44 ]
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Tobester - 15 August 2009 03:39 PM

Here is a very simple question: Who would benefit more from their population being healthy, strong and able to work and help build/ keep the economy; the government or the insurance companies?

Neither, it

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Posted: 15 August 2009 06:42 PM   [ # 45 ]
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I just found this whilst surfing around and reading about the health care bill.  Gee, why does the thought f having the gov’t cmpile a list of “fishy” opponents of the health care bill scare the heck out of me? :gulp:  Hello 1984. :blank:

In her White House blog, Linda Douglass said, “There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care.  These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation.  Since we can

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Posted: 15 August 2009 06:53 PM   [ # 46 ]
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Death Panel….? Like judges?
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Posted: 15 August 2009 07:44 PM   [ # 47 ]
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Sounds a lot like Bush’s illegal wiretaps.    I think the government collecting information of this type has been around a lot longer than any of us.  It is usually just done behind the scenes.

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Posted: 15 August 2009 07:54 PM   [ # 48 ]
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gray - 15 August 2009 11:44 PM

Sounds a lot like Bush’s illegal wiretaps.    I think the government collecting information of this type has been around a lot longer than any of us.  It is usually just done behind the scenes.

The government can’t really help collecting information, whether it wants to or not.  The main difference with this situation is that it seems to be an encouraged and acknowledged instance, and that there seems to be some sort of a plan to use the information.

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Posted: 15 August 2009 08:17 PM   [ # 49 ]
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From this particular article, it appears that no one is trying to hide anything or even suggesting gathering anything secretly.  It appears that they are asking people who receive any information that sounds funny to them or uncomfortable of ‘fishy’ to forward it to the ‘White House’ in much the way you might spam or spoof or ask people on the Hoax Forum if something might be true or not.

There IS a lot of information that are craftily created tidbits to create fear rumors.  The second paragraph in the quoted area names those that are notorious for creating these kinds of inflammatory ideas and get them circulating.  It’s not only good misdirection, but political game playing that harms many and exploits just as many others….  they start a squabble, then while the victims continue the bloody fight they stand back and watch knowing that their real agenda was NOT what the victims believe they’re fighting for, but rather distraction while they hit their real target.  Often we’ve been able to laugh at these individuals bashing others, but this time they are hurting an entire country of citizens. 

Reaction from critics of the Obama Administration was swift.  On Thursday, August 6, 2009, the Dallas News reported that

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Posted: 16 August 2009 02:58 AM   [ # 50 ]
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Yeah, it looks like they’re asking people to send on the fishy INFORMATION that they receive, rather than the name, SS number and address of the people who are sending it around.
😉

I’d imagine it’s so they can address the false rumours before they get to… well, ‘death panel’ status.

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Posted: 16 August 2009 07:27 AM   [ # 51 ]
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Yeah, frankly I don’t see the point either. It is not like the gub’ment will round up all those against the plans and lock them up or something. They target the disinformation and fearmongery they spread, and they are in their right to do so.

I think these people make a fuzz because they are well aware that they are distributing disinformation and unwarranted fear.

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Posted: 16 August 2009 09:07 AM   [ # 52 ]
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Ok, I work for a health insurance company processing claims.  The division I work for is part of a government contract, which is about as far into it as I should go.  Because I do work on a government contract, I sign a lot of confidentiality blah blah blah…..

Anyway, I’m very open about my work when I go to the doctor, and both doctors and staff talk to me about certain issues.  While government funded “insurance” may be great for those on it, the providers tell me they are lucky to break even, because the government programs pay so little.  That is probably why we see so much Medicare and Medicaid fraud.  Providers feel entitled, and upcode and bill for procedures and services that were never done.  Sometimes I cringe when I see what appears to be an honest claim and process it properly and see how little it pays.  Of course, that is no excuse for fraud.

Now, I’m guessing the private insurance companies figure that since the government sponsored programs pay so little, they lower their allowables as well.  (I could be wrong, but it makes sense).  Gone are the days when a doctor charged $50 for an office visit and was paid $50.  They are lucky to receive $29 for 20 minutes of time, less on a government sponsored program.  My EOB from the independent lab showed that my insurance allowed and paid $1.91 for a urinalysis.  I’ve seen government sponsored programs pay as little as 29 cents for a urinalysis.  No wonder family practioners are offering botox and minor cosmetic procedures to bring in some cash.

So, I don’t know how I feel about it.  A lot of doctors these days are deciding not to be part of private insurance networks.  In other words, they will not accept the allowed amounts or write offs.  They will bill you the difference or have you pay upfront and refund you the different between what you paid the what the insurance company paid.  I don’t think a widespread government sponsored plan is going to make them any happier. 

So do government sponsored plans in other countries reimburse their providers fairly?  Anybody know?

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Posted: 16 August 2009 09:23 AM   [ # 53 ]
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I think that what we will find if this program actually goes through is that we will develop two health care systems.  One for those on the insurance, and one for those willing to pay cash. (Or private insurance, if still available. Though from what I have seen, the whole idea is to go to a single payer system and eliminate “rogue” agencies.)  Having been on medicaid, I can see what the problem will be. It will be like trying to find dental care.  Around here, (And every other town/city I have lived in) it is nearly impossible to get dental work done under medicaid.  If, by Grabthar’s Hammer, a dentist does open that takes medicaid, his office is booked solid for the next nine months within a few days.  (Most only take medicaid appointments for a few hours on the first day of every month, and if you are not his patient already, you won’t be.)

The first question they ask is “Are you on medicaid?”  For cash, you can be seen in 15 minutes. 😕

We will have the public system of health care, run like every “free clinic” in the country.  And then we will have “private” health care. Like the Mayo Clinic. :shut:

And 90% of the populace will have NO choice of which one they will belong to. :down:

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Posted: 16 August 2009 11:33 AM   [ # 54 ]
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Here is a (very) brief and condensed summary that the BBC just ran comparing some different health care systems.

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Posted: 16 August 2009 11:36 AM   [ # 55 ]
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We can in Europe, so why not you?

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Posted: 16 August 2009 01:13 PM   [ # 56 ]
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Costs to doctors AND pharmeucitals begin at a base root, and it isn’t the end user costs that need to be overhauled but the root LONG before the patient becomes the ‘booby’.

The cost of medical school for doctors is astronomical.  I think we all understand that.  I’m not sure how that might be overhauled but be assured that individual now has student loans to pay and will be paying far far into the future.

On top of that:

Many years ago, for example, doctors had little need to carry excessive liability insurance to safeguard heavy suits against them when a patient either died or became injured when a routine procedure went wrong.  Doctors are not gods but today patients are quick to sue in many instances.  Lawfirms are very quick to put elaborate ads on television and radio as well as on other media sites telling you what you sue against. 

Unless there can be an overhaul of certain legal issues, doctors have to reap back in part what it costs them to have liability insurance each year. 

Studies recent studies have also shown that by jurisdiction (State) there is often wide differences in cost for particular procedures by thousands of dollars:  http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande (I’m only going to paste a few exerpts since the report is 8 pages long)

...Yet in 2006 Medicare expenditures (our best approximation of over-all spending patterns) in El Paso were $7,504 per enrollee

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Posted: 17 August 2009 02:22 PM   [ # 57 ]
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I think this whole thing is sad. We need this to change. I still font get why we would be “socialist” for having adequate health care for all of our citizens. Yes, it will take a long time to perfect and it will cost and we will all have a responsibility to contribute. But we have to get this fixed!! Its not excusable that we have such a wreck of a system in which a huge concern is “will I still be able to profit as I am now?” Its kind of sick. Health care is a public issue. I don’t mind paying if I know I can be served. Unlike now, without insurance.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 02:23 PM   [ # 58 ]
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Don’t,not font.  I guess spell check doesn’t pick up incorrect words spelled correctly. 😝

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Posted: 17 August 2009 02:30 PM   [ # 59 ]
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The way I see it being put forth now is that the high and might rich will be footing the bill for the most part.  And while they are obviously evil, they are rich after all, it ain’t right to take their wealth away to redistribute it as they see fit.  Isn’t that socialism?

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Posted: 17 August 2009 02:48 PM   [ # 60 ]
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That is a teeny bitsy part of this whole giant whorling monster of an issue. Everyone is focusing on one point or another and not the big picture. It is not the rich that will be paying for this program exclusively. It would be impossible to earmark individual tax intake for particular purposes. Yes, the rich will be taxed more heavily than they have been. They should have been anyway. But that goes into all of the government coffers. Extra tax dollars will definitely fund these initiatives. Logically, wouldn’t all of our FICA/Medicare taxes be funneled into single payer health care eventually?

All I know is that I DON"T want insurance companies to make any more money. Perhaps I am being harsh, but many of our issues with inadequate health care are because of them and their profit hungry ways.

When I say, “why is it socialism”, I see national health care working in all kinds of countries without this socialist stigma.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 02:50 PM   [ # 61 ]
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We are all being taxed up the whats-its anyway.  Its about damn time the rich paid propotionally what I do!!

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Posted: 17 August 2009 02:59 PM   [ # 62 ]
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That is where I disagree, why should the rich be taxed more?  Should the poorer pay less for a car, house, groceries, etc?  Why is taxes any different?  They don’t even qualify for the programs the fund because they are rich.  We shouldn’t penalize success, which is what our current tax system does and seems to be heading toward doing it more.

What makes government services so different that some have to pay more for less while other pay less or in most cases none for more?

Regardless of any stigma either way, when you hand over things to the government and say please make someone else pay for my healthcare, that is socialism.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 03:14 PM   [ # 63 ]
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I don’t get any government benefits and couldn’t qualify at my income level, pay full price for groceries, live in a pricier urban area and am taxed nearly 20% off the top of my income (state, federal, FICA/Medicare and Social Security) with an additional 10.25% sales tax (food is 2% tax rate here). The problem is, with all of this creative accounting, shelters and lower tax brackets in many situations - the rich are paying less taxes proportionally than the solid middle class. Like me. The owner of my company created a corporation prior to buying the condo building he lives in for the tax shelter!!!!!!! This is pretty typical behavior. Kind of disgusting. Don’t forget either, the below poverty level typically pay lower or no income taxes. At tax time, depending on family size, they tend to get earned income credit on top of all of their tax dollars back via refund.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 03:24 PM   [ # 64 ]
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If you have problems with the current tax system, I am right there with you.  It is so messed up I don’t even think those in charge really know what it all means.

I really like the idea of a higher sales tax with no income tax.  That way the “rich” would pay more because they consume more.  But it is their choice to pay it by buying things.

I personally think we need health care reform of some sort.  Is our benevolent federal government the one to oversee our health?  I realize it can’t be much worse than the current system where beancounters at insurance companies decide what you get paid for and what you don’t.

I just don’t see access to health care as an unalienable right, the same as home ownership, we see where that philosophy has currently placed us.

Part of me wants to say yeah alright free health care, that is a weight off my back, but another part says wait no, that isn’t the way our country is supposed to be ran.  It is an inner struggle without a doubt.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 03:42 PM   [ # 65 ]
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I completely and totally agree with you. I also like the idea of sales vs. income tax. Then we would all be in the same boat. I also don’t know if our government is the best choice to lead us into a health care wonderland, but what else is there? If we look to insurance coverage for all, how in the world would most people be able to afford it? I, on the other hand, do think health care should be accessible. Perhaps I take this to heart because I am one of those however many millions of uninsured who cannot afford private coverage and has preexisting conditions that I need health insurance for but cant get covered for those things. Its a big stupid catch 22. Very frustrating.

We could certainly equate this with home ownership - great comparison by the way. The old American dream, everyone owns land and a house!!! But the our system of banking and mortgages has changed dramatically in the last 40 years with widespread reinvestment, profit and greed (the ARM and lending to those who would not have qualified in the past) have caused its collapse. Lets not forget, its not the medical profession itself or the level of care that is driving this issue. It is the cost and insurance and liability. That is what has made medical care completely inaccessible.

Thank you, NEO, for an intelligent mid-day conversation!!

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Posted: 17 August 2009 03:51 PM   [ # 66 ]
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Intelligent….where…what…who…when?  Umm….

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Posted: 17 August 2009 03:53 PM   [ # 67 ]
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And my family is getting dropped from health care coverage at the end of the month here at work which is just awesome let me tell you.  I can’t afford private coverage for them, with 3 very active kids and one clumsy wife, I feel I might be in trouble soon.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 03:57 PM   [ # 68 ]
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See, that just blows goats.  My heart goes out to you.  Its so hard to deal with these things, especially with tiny people to take care of.  It just one more thing to worry about.  And probably the last thing you need!

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Posted: 17 August 2009 04:05 PM   [ # 69 ]
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N E O - 17 August 2009 07:51 PM

Intelligent….where…what…who…when?  Umm….

Yes, intellegent.  Deal with it :cheese:

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Posted: 17 August 2009 04:07 PM   [ # 70 ]
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It is just nice to have someone sort of agree with me around, it is strange.  I am a right wing wacko without a doubt.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 04:08 PM   [ # 71 ]
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Health care, like all things we need and consume, will never be ‘free’ and I think that’s the first thing we need to understand. 

The taxes we pay into our government system are just one of the ways we ‘bank’ funds to pay for various programs.  We hire our government officials to manage all these programs as well as establishing laws to protect us, to provide adequate defense systems to protect us etc. 

Protecting or punishing one group over another is ludicrous.  The Rich, the Poor, the Middle Class.  It IS true though that the higher one’s financial worth, the more able to shield or move funds into areas that are sheltered from taxes.  That’s exactly what several law firms for whom I worked did for their own living.  Many wealthy people get wealthy and keep their wealth by moving it into various trusts, multiple international banks, opening via paper various companies, moving funds into other family names including pets etc.  It’s an interesting game and all legal or within the gray area of stepping over the line.

Often the poor have access to programs because of their poverty level financial status that neither the wealthy NOR middle class have access to. 

The middle class is notorious and has been for decades, as sitting on the most tedious rung of the ladder.

IF tax laws were taken as a flat rate, the government would need to change tax laws enough to prevent over zealous sheltering.  Because, sadely, right now the very wealthy really are not paying taxes proportionately even with the middle class and it’s from the middle area of income that the rest must radiate insofar as equating a system of fairness. 

I do believe that getting health care ‘fixed’ will require realigning our tax system. 

As far as getting into a debate about who ‘deserves’ what and in what proportions, the wealthy will continue to have more and being taxed is not punishing them for success.  The poor will continue to have less to nothing and that is punishment enough, and the middle class will continue to be the spine of the country and that is just status quo.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 04:12 PM   [ # 72 ]
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Radical conservative. like Ted Nugent?

Ted Nugent is just awesome.  Stranglehold!!!!!  Wow, I am so off topic!

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Posted: 17 August 2009 04:15 PM   [ # 73 ]
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hulitoons - 17 August 2009 08:08 PM

Health care, like all things we need and consume, will never be ‘free’ and I think that’s the first thing we need to understand. 

The taxes we pay into our government system are just one of the ways we ‘bank’ funds to pay for various programs.  We hire our government officials to manage all these programs as well as establishing laws to protect us, to provide adequate defense systems to protect us etc. 

Protecting or punishing one group over another is ludicrous.  The Rich, the Poor, the Middle Class.  It IS true though that the higher one’s financial worth, the more able to shield or move funds into areas that are sheltered from taxes.  That’s exactly what several law firms for whom I worked did for their own living.  Many wealthy people get wealthy and keep their wealth by moving it into various trusts, multiple international banks, opening via paper various companies, moving funds into other family names including pets etc.  It’s an interesting game and all legal or within the gray area of stepping over the line.

Often the poor have access to programs because of their poverty level financial status that neither the wealthy NOR middle class have access to. 

The middle class is notorious and has been for decades, as sitting on the most tedious rung of the ladder.

IF tax laws were taken as a flat rate, the government would need to change tax laws enough to prevent over zealous sheltering.  Because, sadely, right now the very wealthy really are not paying taxes proportionately even with the middle class and it’s from the middle area of income that the rest must radiate insofar as equating a system of fairness. 

I do believe that getting health care ‘fixed’ will require realigning our tax system. 

As far as getting into a debate about who ‘deserves’ what and in what proportions, the wealthy will continue to have more and being taxed is not punishing them for success.  The poor will continue to have less to nothing and that is punishment enough, and the middle class will continue to be the spine of the country and that is just status quo.

Yes, yes, and yes.  And thank you.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 04:21 PM   [ # 74 ]
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Being overtaxed is punishment for success if you play by the rules and pay what is required of you.  I don’t see how it could be interpreted any other way than that.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 04:24 PM   [ # 75 ]
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The irony is, you have to have a lot of time and money to set yourself up in such a way to save all of that money.  A few resourceful attorneys are a big help as well.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 04:42 PM   [ # 76 ]
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So until the tax system changes, rich people will be taxed higher but not actually pay anything, while the poor or lazy continue to mooch off me?  I had better get another job.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 06:17 PM   [ # 77 ]
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N E O - 17 August 2009 07:53 PM

And my family is getting dropped from health care coverage at the end of the month here at work which is just awesome let me tell you.  I can’t afford private coverage for them, with 3 very active kids and one clumsy wife, I feel I might be in trouble soon.

I don’t like to think of it as clumsy, just graceful falling.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 06:22 PM   [ # 78 ]
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N E O - 17 August 2009 08:42 PM

So until the tax system changes, rich people will be taxed higher but not actually pay anything, while the poor or lazy continue to mooch off me?  I had better get another job.

NEO, not all people who fall at or below poverty level do so because they are lazy or wish to ‘mooch’.  Bad things or situations happen to very good and noble people. 

Remember too, that for those whose finances open up options that others cannot approach, these will continue to invest or ‘shield’ funds.  Sometimes the shielding actually does help many others.  They will, nevertheless, continue to protect as much as they can because they can. 

That is the price and cost (as I said, the society in which we live is not free) of capitalism. 

There will always, too, be true and lazy moochers no matter what kind of society you live in, just as there will also be those who are wealthy hoarders.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 07:59 PM   [ # 79 ]
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N E O - 17 August 2009 07:53 PM

And my family is getting dropped from health care coverage at the end of the month here at work which is just awesome let me tell you.  I can’t afford private coverage for them, with 3 very active kids and one clumsy wife, I feel I might be in trouble soon.

I think I’d march into my H.R. office and ask them why they feel the need to replace me (and other married employees) with single people.  I mean, come on, offering good benefits is what attracts quality people to an employer.  Don’t they know that?

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Posted: 17 August 2009 08:13 PM   [ # 80 ]
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This happened to my sister and brother-in-law too this past month.  They have one child and both work BUT, neither can have family coverage so they have to get health insurance on the side for their daughter.  At least they have ONLY one child.

Bebe, the truth is that providers are putting these stumbling blocks on many employers, especially for smaller businesses.  The cost for families has gotten so high they can’t afford to keep it for their employees or they’ll go out of business….  lordy knows we don’t have enough of them hiring as it is.  Even if they did keep it and took what they needed to take from paychecks before handing it over to an employee, that employee would walk away with practically nothing at all.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 08:18 PM   [ # 81 ]
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I haven’t had insurance since I left Michael’s two years ago.  I couldn’t afford it at Hobby Lobby, and being a temporary government employee, I’m not eligible for it.  Fortunately, my minor kids have Medicaid, and Dave has both Medicare and Medicaid.  And I don’t get sick, so I’m not concerned with having it for myself.

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Posted: 17 August 2009 11:58 PM   [ # 82 ]
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Bebelicious - 17 August 2009 11:59 PM
N E O - 17 August 2009 07:53 PM

And my family is getting dropped from health care coverage at the end of the month here at work which is just awesome let me tell you.  I can’t afford private coverage for them, with 3 very active kids and one clumsy wife, I feel I might be in trouble soon.

I think I’d march into my H.R. office and ask them why they feel the need to replace me (and other married employees) with single people.  I mean, come on, offering good benefits is what attracts quality people to an employer.  Don’t they know that?

Everyone’s family insurance is gone so is 401k, dental, vision, etc.  Hard times and whatnot.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 12:11 AM   [ # 83 ]
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hulitoons - 17 August 2009 10:22 PM
N E O - 17 August 2009 08:42 PM

So until the tax system changes, rich people will be taxed higher but not actually pay anything, while the poor or lazy continue to mooch off me?  I had better get another job.

NEO, not all people who fall at or below poverty level do so because they are lazy or wish to ‘mooch’.  Bad things or situations happen to very good and noble people. 

Remember too, that for those whose finances open up options that others cannot approach, these will continue to invest or ‘shield’ funds.  Sometimes the shielding actually does help many others.  They will, nevertheless, continue to protect as much as they can because they can. 

That is the price and cost (as I said, the society in which we live is not free) of capitalism. 

There will always, too, be true and lazy moochers no matter what kind of society you live in, just as there will also be those who are wealthy hoarders.

I don’t think I said or implied all poor people are lazy or moochers, if I did that wasn’t my intent.  But taking things that you didn’t earn will usually get you put in jail unless the government is doing the taking, then it is cost of living in a civilized country?

I just can’t get past the fact that what someone earned themself somehow belongs to someone else due to the someone elses economic status?
I don’t have anything against disabled people and such getting benefits and whatnot, but just because you can’t or won’t better yourself beyond your current position on the economic scale means you are entitled to things you didn’t earn?

Yes the rich will shield their income, that is also illegal, but they are probably tired of having most of it taken away to be given to someone who didn’t earn it.  I know I would be.  You put all your efforts into earning so your family can have a decent life then you get to give a good majority of it away to those who did nothing to earn it other than being alive.  Our country wasn’t founded on those principles and it should not go there (although it already is partly there and heading there further quickly).  As soon as the masses figure out they can through the government take away from the few, a democracy is in trouble.

I work my butt of for the little I have, but I still don’t want to stick it to the rich who seem to get it so easy.  I just want to continue to better myself so I can have the good life too.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 12:30 AM   [ # 84 ]
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And to say that the rich don’t pay taxes is incorrect.

But I assume it should be more.

According to the Office of Tax Analysis, the U.S. individual income tax is “highly progressive,” with a small group of higher-income taxpayers paying most of the individual income taxes each year.

# In 2002 the latest year of available data, the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.8 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (30.6 percent) of income.

# The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002. This group of taxpayers has paid more than 30 percent of individual income taxes since 1995. Moreover, since 1990 this group

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Posted: 18 August 2009 02:01 AM   [ # 85 ]
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N E O - 18 August 2009 04:11 AM

I just can’t get past the fact that what someone earned themself somehow belongs to someone else due to the someone elses economic status?
I don’t have anything against disabled people and such getting benefits and whatnot, but just because you can’t or won’t better yourself beyond your current position on the economic scale means you are entitled to things you didn’t earn?

I believe every human being is entitled to be able to feed themselves properly, have a roof over the head, and acces to medical care. Those are things that are in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I believe people who can easily afford those above, can be held responsible for providing these to people who cannot afford it themselves. That is Humane. That is civilized.

Also don’t forget that the “rich” are “rich” because of both the productivity and consumership of the less rich: those who work in humble positions in their corporations (up to the people who at night clean their offices), those who buy their products. Without this base of those who have less, the “rich” would not have been able to amass their fortunes and keep them. So with what they earn, they do have obligations to those who allowed them to earn it. That is my opinion.

People, you do not live in a vacuum. You live in a society, a meta-social unit. The picture is bigger than just you yourself.

How many more houses of cards after the banking bubble-pop need to fall before people realize that pure selfish enrichment without consideration of the people at the base of your house of cards, eventually comes back to bite you in the ass?

Here is what I do not understand about the current American attitudes. A few decades ago, this realization seemed to be well understood by your corporations but since the eighties it seems to have been completely lost on you. I think the banking bubble is just one of the first signs that that change in attitude will fall back upon you with a vengeance.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 02:10 AM   [ # 86 ]
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I can’t speak for NEO, but as far as everyone having the right to healthcare, why are his taxes being used to fund Medicaid for someone else, yet he cannot afford healhcare insurance for his family?  He is not rich enough to purchase it himself, and he is not poor enough for the Medicaid he helps pay for.  That’s the idiocy in our system.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 02:38 AM   [ # 87 ]
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Bebelicious - 18 August 2009 06:10 AM

I can’t speak for NEO, but as far as everyone having the right to healthcare, why are his taxes being used to fund Medicaid for someone else, yet he cannot afford healhcare insurance for his family?  He is not rich enough to purchase it himself, and he is not poor enough for the Medicaid he helps pay for.  That’s the idiocy in our system.

That is idiocy indeed. And it comes about because the middle and not the top segment of incomes share the brunt of the burden.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 02:42 AM   [ # 88 ]
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LaMa - 18 August 2009 06:01 AM

How many more houses of cards after the banking bubble-pop need to fall before people realize that pure selfish enrichment without consideration of the people at the base of your house of cards, eventually comes back to bite you in the ass?

Here is what I do not understand about the current American attitudes. A few decades ago, this realization seemed to be well understood by your corporations but since the eighties it seems to have been completely lost on you. I think the banking bubble is just one of the first signs that that change in attitude will fall back upon you with a vengeance.


My prediction is, that within only a few decades we will see this current American ideology and America go the same way as the Soviet communist ideology and Russia. The first signs are there.

Pure capitalism is as outdated an ideology as communism is.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 10:19 AM   [ # 89 ]
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Bebelicious - 18 August 2009 06:10 AM

I can’t speak for NEO, but as far as everyone having the right to healthcare, why are his taxes being used to fund Medicaid for someone else, yet he cannot afford healhcare insurance for his family?  He is not rich enough to purchase it himself, and he is not poor enough for the Medicaid he helps pay for.  That’s the idiocy in our system.

I have said the system is messed up.  I don’t necessarily agree with Medicaid either, and the way it is ran.  It is a crazy system, all or nothing.  We made 15 dollars too much a week to qualify for coverage for our latest baby bills, that is less than one hours worth of work a week.  Crazy.  100% coverage or 0%, no in between.  I work my butt of to better my family and when I need a bit of help, sorry you have been working just a bit too hard lately, screw you.  Next, oh you are an illegal alien?  Here fill out these forms for emergency food stamps and for free money to buy dope with!  Aren’t we a great benevolent country? 

I might be a bit cynical.

My main problem is that some people owe others a basic right.  It is the moral thing to do, but for it to be demanded by the government, I don’t think that is right.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 10:31 AM   [ # 90 ]
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I intend to better myself and my families situation, but through my own labor not depending on the government to do it for me.  And when I get there I don’t want to have to fill everyone’s hand, through the government, that is held out because I am in a better position.  I will help people, and I do when I can even now, I just don’t want my charity dictated by the government.

As I said I feel that the more well off have a moral obligation to help the less fortunate but the government shouldn’t be the enforcer of that morality.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 10:38 AM   [ # 91 ]
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And as far as “free” health care, that is already available in any larger town in the country.  Just step into the county hospital and they MUST treat you, regardless of your ability to pay.

what we are talking abut here is all of the little extras.  Getting that wart burned off.  (I would say teeth, but that is MAJOR and untouched by the new plans anyhow.)

I am really tired of the streotype of the “rich guys” cheating the system, not paying their fair share, etc.  If you had read NEO’s post you would recognize that as things stand now, they pay 90% of all Gov’t taxes.  How much more?  Some folks won’t be happy until we take everything from those stinkin’ rich people and give it to all of the poor, downtrodden, more deserving illegal aliens and welfare recipients!  NOT! 😠

Most folks with high salaries get that money merely because someone is willing to pay that rate.  We saw how well set salaries and five year plans worked in the former Soviet union.  It is a pipe dream/nightmare.  When you are that rich you can do it differently and see how well it works. Pay everyone who walks through the door the same high salary no matter ho hard they work.  And write about it when your company goes belly up because 80% of people aren’t as committed to working hard as the rest are. 😕

I agree that everyone should have access to necessary health care.  I just don’t think that this is the way to get there. (Heck, reading Huli’s article, all we would have to do is slightly tweak the current system of billing/payouts and everything would be paid for anyway.)

*sigh*
But what do I know. I am just an “ignorant American”. :blank:

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Posted: 18 August 2009 10:52 AM   [ # 92 ]
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Seriously Dave, all rich people got their money through evil means and hide it in off shore accounts.  They pay no taxes and steal old people pension checks and roll them into cigarettes that they sell to children in Mexico so they get cancer by the age of 12.
I am so tired of the demonization of the “rich” just because they are.  They obviously pay way more than their fair share if you actually do the research and not just run on emotions.  Lets not be jealous of the rich and want to take what they have, but lets aspire to be in their position through hard work and making the right choices.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 10:54 AM   [ # 93 ]
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DavePrime - 18 August 2009 02:38 PM

We saw how well set salaries and five year plans worked in the former Soviet union.  It is a pipe dream/nightmare.

Pay everyone who walks through the door the same high salary no matter ho hard they work.  And write about it when yur company goes belly up because 80% of people aren

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Posted: 18 August 2009 11:00 AM   [ # 94 ]
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Unfortunately, LaMa, the reason it comes up is that the only way everyone seems to want to fund such measures is the old tried and true “Take It From the Rich” song and dance. :shut:

I have no problem with social reform if you truly spread it across the entire tax base, not some small segment of it.  What if I told you that we were going to fund all traffic upgrades by taxing only those who made between 60k and 100k per year an extra 10k a year.  The screaming in the press wouldn’t stop.  And yet when placed on the nebulous “rich”, it is okay.  Part of the problem is the extremely liberal press, the other is the “gimme” attitude the past few generations have been brought up with.  And it is all our own damn fault.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 11:01 AM   [ # 95 ]
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LaMa - 18 August 2009 06:42 AM
LaMa - 18 August 2009 06:01 AM

How many more houses of cards after the banking bubble-pop need to fall before people realize that pure selfish enrichment without consideration of the people at the base of your house of cards, eventually comes back to bite you in the ass?

Here is what I do not understand about the current American attitudes. A few decades ago, this realization seemed to be well understood by your corporations but since the eighties it seems to have been completely lost on you. I think the banking bubble is just one of the first signs that that change in attitude will fall back upon you with a vengeance.


My prediction is, that within only a few decades we will see this current American ideology and America go the same way as the Soviet communist ideology and Russia. The first signs are there.

Pure capitalism is as outdated an ideology as communism is.


And what I basically mean here, is things like: At the top of the spectrum, Corporate Executives grabbing millions of Dollars in bonusses while at the same time at the lower end of the spectrum they fire thousands of employees because that is cheaper. This while their conduct as top executives is not good all all: see what happened with the recent bank crisis.

In my opinion, that is plain wrong.

That kind of Corporate culture hasn’t always been the American Way. It only has popped up during the past 3 decades. And I predict that within only a few decades it will lead to disasters: economic, and humanitarian. Somehow however,  Americans seem to have developed the false idea that this recently established Corporate Culture is the “original” American way and needs to be defended tooth and claw.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 11:03 AM   [ # 96 ]
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Where does the socialism trend stop though?  And it is socialism regardless of how it is spun.  Taking from the rich and giving to the poor sound good and romantic, like Robin Hood, but when you put yourself in the story as the have’s, it isn’t so fun.  Yes I realize the poor were being oppressed in the reference story, but that isn’t the case here.  They are being pandered to, not being asked to improve themselves.  For votes?  Maybe, when you can turn a large segment of the population through handouts, I wonder if there isn’t some ulterior motive.  Keep us in power and the money will keep rolling your way. Anyway…

Sure we have heard to infinitum how well it works in Europe, but honest no offense, I don’t want to be Europe, just the same as you don’t want to be the U.S.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 11:06 AM   [ # 97 ]
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LaMa - 18 August 2009 03:01 PM
LaMa - 18 August 2009 06:42 AM
LaMa - 18 August 2009 06:01 AM

How many more houses of cards after the banking bubble-pop need to fall before people realize that pure selfish enrichment without consideration of the people at the base of your house of cards, eventually comes back to bite you in the ass?

Here is what I do not understand about the current American attitudes. A few decades ago, this realization seemed to be well understood by your corporations but since the eighties it seems to have been completely lost on you. I think the banking bubble is just one of the first signs that that change in attitude will fall back upon you with a vengeance.


My prediction is, that within only a few decades we will see this current American ideology and America go the same way as the Soviet communist ideology and Russia. The first signs are there.

Pure capitalism is as outdated an ideology as communism is.


And what I basically mean here, is things like: At the top of the spectrum, Corporate Executives grabbing millions of Dollars in bonusses while at the same time at the lower end of the spectrum they fire thousands of employees because that is cheaper. This while their conduct as top executives is not good all all: see what happened with the recent bank crisis.

In my opinion, that is plain wrong.

That kind of Corporate culture hasn’t always been the American Way. It only has popped up during the past 3 decades. And I predict that within only a few decades it will lead to disasters: economic, and humanitarian. Somehow however, Americans seem to have developed the idea that this recent Corporate Culture is the “original"American way and needs to be defended tooth and claw.

I don’t believe that.  I feel just as strongly that the “golden parachutes” are wrong as I do about this issue.  It is wrong and is what is destroying our system of economics.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 11:08 AM   [ # 98 ]
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It actually came up in the early eighties with the corporate raiders.  they discovered that the bastions of enterprise were worth more in pieces than as a whole. They would leverage a buyout and then sell the companies off piecemeal.  the idea of retirement at the same company pretty much ended right then.  You never knew if a company would even survive until you retired. (Geez, have you not watched Pretty Woman?) :gulp:

We’ll find our balance.  We always seem to.  What you are witnessing right now is like an argument around the dinner table.  You have our country folks, close to the land and used to backbreaking work sitting down with their city cousins, high in tech and full of money and dreams.  They will eventually find their balance. 😊

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Posted: 18 August 2009 11:17 AM   [ # 99 ]
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Dave I hope you are right.  But this divide between sides is getting pretty wide and deep.  People don’t vote issues anymore, they vote sides just because it is their side.  You can’t talk issues with a lot of people because it quickly degrades to name calling and smear tactics.

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Posted: 18 August 2009 01:04 PM   [ # 100 ]
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N E O - 18 August 2009 03:03 PM

Where does the socialism trend stop though?  And it is socialism regardless of how it is spun.  Taking from the rich and giving to the poor sound good and romantic, like Robin Hood, but when you put yourself in the story as the have’s, it isn’t so fun.  Yes I realize the poor were being oppressed in the reference story, but that isn’t the case here.  They are being pandered to, not being asked to improve themselves.  For votes?  Maybe, when you can turn a large segment of the population through handouts, I wonder if there isn’t some ulterior motive.  Keep us in power and the money will keep rolling your way. Anyway…

Sure we have heard to infinitum how well it works in Europe, but honest no offense, I don’t want to be Europe, just the same as you don’t want to be the U.S.

N E O - 18 August 2009 03:17 PM

Dave I hope you are right.  But this divide between sides is getting pretty wide and deep.  People don’t vote issues anymore, they vote sides just because it is their side.  You can’t talk issues with a lot of people because it quickly degrades to name calling and smear tactics.

Oh NEO, while there are (I’m repeating myself I know), ALWAYS going to be people who just don’t try, there are many MANY more who play by all the rules, get an education and still struggle off the edge of the world or barely get by or have ponderous happenings challenge areas of their lives that drag them down, they get back up and tackle the problem and are tenacious, smart and never ask for a single handout.  I believe you’re one of these, struggling to raise a family and still young enough to believe in tomorrow, with energy enough to pursue an unknown road.  You are not unique, you are one of literally billions.

There are many who, just like you, followed all the same rules, dreams and rugged roads but for whatever fates, they get mud dashed into their faces at every turn.  Still, they don’t give up because they believe in fairness, that the same rules should apply to everyone.  They should really, but they don’t.  Sometimes it’s just because someone got sick, or because the right place and time was just a little bit off….

There are few who will become what can be termed ‘wealthy’.  Often these are people who have inherited from generations of successful folks who may themselves have gathered success through all the things you are doing EXCEPT that they did something just right at just the right time in just the right place.

There are yet others who earned their way to wealth following the same rules you’re following, BUT, they did something just right, at just the right time in just the right place.

There are others who earned just enough to want more and performed some colorful feats just within or way beyond the boundaries of the rules, stepping carefully on or through others.  Sometimes what they do is damaging to a few people, and sometimes to many. 

There are many MANY people who make it by saving every single penny, by denying themselves many things in life and live a spartan existence….because that’s not life, that is ONLY existence and that’s sad.

I’ve known people who were pretty well off for years and then suddenly something happened in their life and they were ruined.  They continued to struggle and got back on their feet for a fair additional years and then something else happened. 

Which is really the point.  Everyone needs help at one time or another.  Sometimes they need a lot of help and sometimes they need to be the one helping someone else.  It really does come down to being a kind of family affair and I don’t think people are taking ‘sides’ here (well some probably are), but rather looking at a single issue that has touched millions of people no matter what the color of their team’s jersey.

I will say this though, we’ve been discussing this pretty heavily and I haven’t seen anyone drop down to name calling or thrashing.  I think we are doing what Town Halls have failed to do and that is, listen to each other, and try to understand and we have done that by expanding well beyond our country and into ones that have been established hundreds of years longer than we have. 

Truthfully, I’m glad that those beyond our borders give us input.  No matter how we might feel about it, ALL of us, each of our governments exchange ideas and our economies are now so tangled together that what happens to one happens to all the rest…..

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Posted: 18 August 2009 11:51 PM   [ # 101 ]
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hulitoons - 18 August 2009 05:04 PM

Oh NEO, while there are (I’m repeating myself I know), ALWAYS going to be people who just don’t try, there are many MANY more who play by all the rules, get an education and still struggle off the edge of the world or barely get by or have ponderous happenings challenge areas of their lives that drag them down, they get back up and tackle the problem and are tenacious, smart and never ask for a single handout.  I believe you’re one of these, struggling to raise a family and still young enough to believe in tomorrow, with energy enough to pursue an unknown road.  You are not unique, you are one of literally billions.

Since you have tried to succeed we the government will grant you success even though you didn’t achieve it.  Not everyone wins no matter how hard they try.

There are many who, just like you, followed all the same rules, dreams and rugged roads but for whatever fates, they get mud dashed into their faces at every turn.  Still, they don’t give up because they believe in fairness, that the same rules should apply to everyone.  They should really, but they don’t.  Sometimes it’s just because someone got sick, or because the right place and time was just a little bit off….

There are few who will become what can be termed ‘wealthy’.  Often these are people who have inherited from generations of successful folks who may themselves have gathered success through all the things you are doing EXCEPT that they did something just right at just the right time in just the right place.

 

Such is life, because someone inherited money doesn’t make it any less theirs and any more mine.  Life isn’t fair, I say deal with it.

There are yet others who earned their way to wealth following the same rules you’re following, BUT, they did something just right, at just the right time in just the right place.

 

Life isn’t fair, you can complain about being at the wrong place at the wrong time or you can go out and try to find that right time, again and again and again as necessary.

There are others who earned just enough to want more and performed some colorful feats just within or way beyond the boundaries of the rules, stepping carefully on or through others.  Sometimes what they do is damaging to a few people, and sometimes to many. 

There are many MANY people who make it by saving every single penny, by denying themselves many things in life and live a spartan existence….because that’s not life, that is ONLY existence and that’s sad.

I’ve known people who were pretty well off for years and then suddenly something happened in their life and they were ruined.  They continued to struggle and got back on their feet for a fair additional years and then something else happened. 

Which is really the point.  Everyone needs help at one time or another.  Sometimes they need a lot of help and sometimes they need to be the one helping someone else.  It really does come down to being a kind of family affair and I don’t think people are taking ‘sides’ here (well some probably are), but rather looking at a single issue that has touched millions of people no matter what the color of their team’s jersey.

 

So the government dictates that we must help the down trodden and less fortunate?  I wish to dictate my own morality, I won’t be told what to do with my charity.  I will help people who really need it, but when I choose to.  A lot of the poor in this country really aren’t poor.  Is TV, internet, a car, two cars, necessary for a happy life?  No, but hey they have it why don’t I?  I work harder than they do.  Oh but wait they made good choices early in life and didn’t sabotage themselves with stupid decisions.

I will say this though, we’ve been discussing this pretty heavily and I haven’t seen anyone drop down to name calling or thrashing.  I think we are doing what Town Halls have failed to do and that is, listen to each other, and try to understand and we have done that by expanding well beyond our country and into ones that have been established hundreds of years longer than we have. 

Truthfully, I’m glad that those beyond our borders give us input.  No matter how we might feel about it, ALL of us, each of our governments exchange ideas and our economies are now so tangled together that what happens to one happens to all the rest…..

I enjoy a rational well thought out debate, that is the reason I like this site so much, it rarely degrades to name calling.

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Posted: 19 August 2009 05:10 AM   [ # 102 ]
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Looking for better ideas I found a couple articles this morning and then a FAQ sheet that were interesting.  I’m unsure how all this could work but because it makes a separate idea I have put it into a separate thread here as well : Health Care Co-Ops? 

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Posted: 19 August 2009 09:03 AM   [ # 103 ]
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Posted: 20 August 2009 02:32 PM   [ # 104 ]
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N E O - 18 August 2009 02:19 PM

I have said the system is messed up.  I don’t necessarily agree with Medicaid either, and the way it is ran.  It is a crazy system, all or nothing.  We made 15 dollars too much a week to qualify for coverage for our latest baby bills, that is less than one hours worth of work a week.  Crazy.  100% coverage or 0%, no in between.  I work my butt of to better my family and when I need a bit of help, sorry you have been working just a bit too hard lately, screw you.  Next, oh you are an illegal alien?  Here fill out these forms for emergency food stamps and for free money to buy dope with!  Aren’t we a great benevolent country? 

I might be a bit cynical.

My main problem is that some people owe others a basic right.  It is the moral thing to do, but for it to be demanded by the government, I don’t think that is right.

That is F*&!@ up.  I remember 15 years ago, my son was three, I was in dire straits.  I had to work full time, received no support from his father and had to pay for child care and live and eat food.  Silly things.  I was at the end of my rope.  I couldn’t qualify for any assistance, because I made too much (HA!), even though day care was literally eating up 60% of my wages.  At this time I also worked with a woman who said she may have to quit her job because she was making too much to continue receiving welfare.  I had to continually resist the great overwhelming urge to tear her face off.  This is not how the system, or human nature, is supposed to work.

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Posted: 20 August 2009 03:02 PM   [ # 105 ]
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I too was once turned down for food stamps.  I was fired from a job while I was on medical leave (actually, I had taken vacation time) to have surgery on my face.  I had had skin cancer and I had a very prominant skin graft about three quarters of of an inch round on my face under my nose.  They had also taken out some lip, so I was kind of scary looking and skin grafts take years to look part way normal.  Anyway, my appearance was no help in job interviews, and I was collecting unemployment.  A single woman on unemployment does (or didn’t then) qualify for food stamps or medicaid.  I remember telling the clerk/social worker/whatever that I should have gotten pregnant instead of cancer.  Then I could be rewarded with care and food.

I went into a deep depression that lasted years.  Lost my self esteem, stopped seeing friends, you name it. 

Years later, I remember a coworker mentioned something about her child being on Medicaid.  Naive me, didn’t understand how her child could be on Medicaid when she had an employer sponsored health plan that would cover her children.  After all, I had been at one point living on unemployment benefits, with no employer sponsored health plan and I couldn’t get help.  But that’s our system. 

Today, I was in the car and this chirpy, happy, female voice (commercial or public service, I’m not sure) was going on about “making this the best school year every for needy children in Kentucky” by enrolling them in K-Chip if they qualify.  (a family of four can earn up to $42,000 a year). 

I still feel like adults need something in a pinch, but I think most of us would prefer an employer sponsored health plan over national care if available.  I chose my particular employer for the excellent benefits, and it is a company that lot of people want to get on with (I also have a great boss and coworkers).  I had tests done today, need to have another test done under sedation very soon, and then I am having surgery.  I’m getting a TVT sling, and I don’t worry about it all being covered. 

Medical insurance is like good looks.  Right or wrong, you are treated differently depending on “whatcha got”.  I’ve had good insurance, and I’ve had bad insurance, and when a provider calls and gets my benefits, they treat me VERY well.

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Posted: 21 August 2009 10:13 AM   [ # 106 ]
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The Problem with TANF

This is a good snippet from today’s Tribune.

Pretty typical stuff. I remember when I thought “maybe the Fed could help”. It was such a blinding hassle. I hate to say it, but it’s almost comical.

Sometimes I kick myself in the a*@ for leaving my last job that had benefits, even though it was a soul crushing enterprise and the benefits were HORRIBLE. $6000.00 per year, no copay, $2000.00 deductible and 50/50 coverage. So not worth it. I left for this small company, more money,explosive potential - then 3 people I know get cancer including my boss - and it makes you feel so mortal. I am happier, but feel as though one little thing could just destroy us.

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Posted: 21 August 2009 10:49 PM   [ # 107 ]
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This Op/ed piece raises some good points:

LIBERAL LIES ABOUT NATIONAL HEALTH CARE: FIRST IN A SERIES
Wed Aug 19, 7:57 pm ET

(1) National health care will punish the insurance companies.

You want to punish insurance companies? Make them compete.

As Adam Smith observed, whenever two businessmen meet, “the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.” That’s why we need a third, fourth and 45th competing insurance company that will undercut them by offering better service at a lower price.

Tiny little France and Germany have more competition among health insurers than the U.S. does right now. Amazingly, both of these socialist countries have less state regulation of health insurance than we do, and you can buy health insurance across regional lines—unlike in the U.S., where a federal law allows states to ban interstate commerce in health insurance.

U.S. health insurance companies are often imperious, unresponsive consumer hellholes because they’re a partial monopoly, protected from competition by government regulation. In some states, one big insurer will control 80 percent of the market. (Guess which party these big insurance companies favor? Big companies love big government.)

Liberals think they can improve the problem of a partial monopoly by turning it into a total monopoly. That’s what single-payer health care is: “Single payer” means “single provider.”

It’s the famous liberal two-step: First screw something up, then claim that it’s screwed up because there’s not enough government oversight (it’s the free market run wild!), and then step in and really screw it up in the name of “reform.”

You could fix 90 percent of the problems with health insurance by ending the federal law allowing states to ban health insurance sales across state lines. But when John McCain called for ending the ban during the 2008 presidential campaign, he was attacked by Joe Biden—another illustration of the ironclad Ann Coulter rule that the worst Republicans are still better than allegedly “conservative” Democrats.

(2) National health care will “increase competition and keep insurance companies honest”—as President Barack Obama has said.

Government-provided health care isn’t a competitor; it’s a monopoly product paid for by the taxpayer. Consumers may be able to “choose” whether they take the service—at least at first—but every single one of us will be forced to buy it, under penalty of prison for tax evasion. It’s like a new cable plan with a “yes” box, but no “no” box.

Obama himself compared national health care to the post office—immediately conjuring images of a highly efficient and consumer-friendly work force—which, like so many consumer-friendly shops, is closed by 2 p.m. on Saturdays, all Sundays and every conceivable holiday.

But what most people don’t know—including the president, apparently—with certain narrow exceptions, competing with the post office is prohibited by law.

Expect the same with national health care. Liberals won’t stop until they have total control. How else will they get you to pay for their sex-change operations?

(3) Insurance companies are denying legitimate claims because they are “villains.”

Obama denounced the insurance companies in last Sunday’s New York Times, saying: “A man lost his health coverage in the middle of chemotherapy because the insurance company discovered that he had gallstones, which he hadn’t known about when he applied for his policy. Because his treatment was delayed, he died.”

Well, yeah. That and the cancer.

Assuming this is true—which would distinguish it from every other story told by Democrats pushing national health care—in a free market, such an insurance company couldn’t stay in business. Other insurance companies would scream from the rooftops about their competitor’s shoddy business practices, and customers would leave in droves.

If only customers had a choice! But we don’t because of government regulation of health insurance.

Speaking of which, maybe if Mr. Gallstone’s insurance company weren’t required by law to cover early childhood development programs and sex-change operations, it wouldn’t be forced to cut corners in the few areas not regulated by the government, such as cancer treatments for patients with gallstones.

(4) National health care will give Americans “basic consumer protections that will finally hold insurance companies accountable”—as Barack Obama claimed in his op/ed in the Times.

You want to protect consumers? Do it the same way we protect consumers of dry cleaning, hamburgers and electricians: Give them the power to tell their insurance companies, “I’m taking my business elsewhere.”

(5) Government intervention is the only way to provide coverage for pre-existing conditions.

The only reason most “pre-existing” conditions aren’t already covered is because of government regulations that shrink the insurance market to a microscopic size, which leads to fewer options in health insurance and a lot more uninsured people than would exist in a free market.

The free market has produced a dizzying array of insurance products in areas other than health…..

LINK

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Posted: 22 August 2009 05:36 AM   [ # 108 ]
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Interesting article Dave.  The eyeopener is:

Tiny little France and Germany have more competition among health insurers than the U.S. does right now. Amazingly, both of these socialist countries have less state regulation of health insurance than we do, and you can buy health insurance across regional lines

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Posted: 22 August 2009 06:14 AM   [ # 109 ]
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That reminds me of something.  I don’t know if this is still the case or not, but it used to be law in illinois, if an insurance company offered you maternity benefits, then they also had to offer (at least one time) invitro fertilization.

As far as I know, that was not true in every state.  While good maternity care is essential to health and baby, invitro is not medically necessary for health, yet it drove up the rates sky high to any employer (especially smaller ones), who had an employee use the benefit.  Go figure.

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Posted: 22 August 2009 06:19 AM   [ # 110 ]
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See. that’s part of the problem.  The more any given group seeks to limit access or choices, the price goes up and the quality goes down.  It is almost a given.  If we ran health care like we did auto or home insurance (Or with even LESS regulation!!) we might see some of the same things that have happened with auto insurance over the past decade(s).  There are MAJOR bidding/price/quality wars going on between carriers.  If a person doesn’t think they are getting a fair shake, a dozen other companies are only a phone call away, just begging to be given a shot!

And yet the Dem Party and the Pres want to limit the health care choices to one.  No alternative.

That, to me and many others, is a nightmare scenario. 😕

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Posted: 22 August 2009 06:44 AM   [ # 111 ]
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Well Dave, insurance companies do woo employers.  Bigger employers often give their employees many choices.  BCCS, United, Prudential…..  Smaller companies do not have the luxury of that choice because if say, there are only 20 employees, they need all 20 to go with the same carrier too get a stated rate.

Now suppose, like you say, it were like car insurance?  Let’s say each insurance company had to take on a certain number of high risk employers (or high utilization for a better term), and still offer a rate that could be afforded and benefits that were decent.  I don’t think insurance companies would go broke doing that.  I don’t know how they determine this in the car insurance biz, but they all seem to be doing just fine profit wise.

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Posted: 22 August 2009 07:10 AM   [ # 112 ]
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DavePrime - 22 August 2009 10:19 AM

See. that’s part of the problem.  The more any given group seeks to limit access or choices, the price goes up and the quality goes down.  It is almost a given.  If we ran health care like we did auto or home insurance (Or with even LESS regulation!!) we might see some of the same things that have happened with auto insurance over the past decade(s).  There are MAJOR bidding/price/quality wars going on between carriers.  If a person doesn’t think they are getting a fair shake, a dozen other companies are only a phone call away, just begging to be given a shot!

And yet the Dem Party and the Pres want to limit the health care choices to one.  No alternative.

That, to me and many others, is a nightmare scenario. 😕

I thought the idea was that there would be a goverment-funded healthcare option for those who need it, but that private health insurance would also be available, like we have here? Maybe I misunderstood the proposals.

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Posted: 22 August 2009 08:00 AM   [ # 113 ]
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DavePrime - 22 August 2009 10:19 AM

See. that’s part of the problem.  The more any given group seeks to limit access or choices, the price goes up and the quality goes down.  It is almost a given.  If we ran health care like we did auto or home insurance (Or with even LESS regulation!!) we might see some of the same things that have happened with auto insurance over the past decade(s).  There are MAJOR bidding/price/quality wars going on between carriers.  If a person doesn’t think they are getting a fair shake, a dozen other companies are only a phone call away, just begging to be given a shot!

And yet the Dem Party and the Pres want to limit the health care choices to one.  No alternative.

That, to me and many others, is a nightmare scenario. 😕

Actually, that’s what I thought too, but after taking the health care quiz that I then put on the forum here, I found out that isn’t true. 

However, I do agree heartily that if basic health care providers HAD to compete with each other, they’d make HUGE modifications VERY quickly

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Posted: 22 August 2009 09:03 AM   [ # 114 ]
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hulitoons - 22 August 2009 12:00 PM

 
However, I do agree heartily that if basic health care providers HAD to compete with each other, they’d make HUGE modifications VERY quickly

They do complete with each other.  I remember years ago when I worked closely with my H.R. director in a job I had, he was getting wooed by several carriers, and had narrowed it down to two.  Each one wanted the contract and did whatever they could to get it.

Now, here’s where the problem comes in:

Hypothetical Scenerio:  The above employer awarded the contract to ABC insurance company.  The contract is for one year, rates and benefits guaranteed, with no lifetime maximum.  During the year, an employee gives birth to a premature baby with severe heart and lung problems among many others.  The insurance company has easily paid out over a million dollars in benefits for this one child.

What do you think will happen when renewal time comes around?  The contact may not be renewed, there will be a lifetime maximum placed on the plan which includes the previous years utilization (yes, I think this is actually legal if I remember correctly), or the rates will just skyrocket.  No matter what, it is very unlikely that the employer will be approached by another insurance company.

Anyway, that’s why I like the idea of carriers being required to carry high utilization cases based on fair factors and variables - profits, size, etc….  BUT, if the government is going to mandate something, then they need to pitch in a little or a lot, so that the government helps fund the high utilization groups. 

There is usually one adult in a household of working age, that is indeed working.  Why can’t 15 small businesses in the area get together to form one large group?  yeah, that means somebody has to do a lot of paper work, but if it’s going to save money on health care, paying an account for a few hours a month is worth it. 

Let the Hair Stylisys in the city form a guild for that purpose, and the mechanic shops, and the privately owned hotels and mini markets. 

Anyway, those are things that have come to my mind over the years.

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Posted: 22 August 2009 09:13 AM   [ # 115 ]
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Bebelicious - 22 August 2009 01:03 PM

...............  Why can’t 15 small businesses in the area get together to form one large group?  yeah, that means somebody has to do a lot of paper work, but if it’s going to save money on health care, paying an account for a few hours a month is worth it. 

Let the Hair Stylisys in the city form a guild for that purpose, and the mechanic shops, and the privately owned hotels and mini markets. 

Anyway, those are things that have come to my mind over the years.

Isn’t that pretty close to the Co-ops some have been discussing?

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Posted: 22 August 2009 09:53 AM   [ # 116 ]
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hulitoons - 22 August 2009 01:13 PM
Bebelicious - 22 August 2009 01:03 PM

...............  Why can’t 15 small businesses in the area get together to form one large group?  yeah, that means somebody has to do a lot of paper work, but if it’s going to save money on health care, paying an account for a few hours a month is worth it. 

Let the Hair Stylisys in the city form a guild for that purpose, and the mechanic shops, and the privately owned hotels and mini markets. 

Anyway, those are things that have come to my mind over the years.

Isn’t that pretty close to the Co-ops some have been discussing?


Like I said, these are things I’ve been thinking about for a long time.

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Posted: 22 August 2009 10:12 AM   [ # 117 ]
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The problem is that the major goal is the “Single-payer” system of healthcare.  that means NO competition. None. (There were quotes from Obama and several senators that showed that this was THE goal that was being shot for, but I can’t find it right now. It is in one of these threads….)  Obama went so far as to say soemthing like…“We can’t have a single payer system right away, and for a little while at least there will be several alternatives.” Urk.

They are going to take the worst part of the whole situation and MAKE IT WORSE.  All in the name of “helping us”. 😠

I agree that co-ops would be great. If more than one or two companies was allowed to compete for the contract. As things stand now, the only choice of said groups would be the same insurance company they had before. :shut:

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Posted: 22 August 2009 10:29 AM   [ # 118 ]
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Ah, Here we go!!

Take a gander at THIS little gem. :gulp:

In their own words….“The public option is the best way to reach Single payer healthcare.”
And
“I was told by an insurance rep that the gov’t option wouldn’t let insurance agencies compete. That it would be the death of private insurance….and HE WAS RIGHT!!”

🐛

Scares the heck outta me. :ahhh:

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Posted: 04 September 2009 11:07 PM   [ # 119 ]
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There is now a site to chronicle the origin and evolution of the Deather and Death Panel movement against Health Care reform:

www.WhatIsADeather.com

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Posted: 05 September 2009 03:57 AM   [ # 120 ]
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whatisadeather.com - 05 September 2009 03:07 AM

There is now a site to chronicle the origin and evolution of the Deather and Death Panel movement against Health Care reform:

www.WhatIsADeather.com

Way to plug your own site! 😉  (Current Page Count = 22)

And this little gem attached near the end was priceless:

Deathers are currently most associated or aligned with Birthers (those who do not believe President Barack Obama was born in the United States), KKK or Aryan Nation ideology (groups outraged over the ethnicity of President Obama), and Pro-Life groups (those who oppose abortion) to thwart Democratic-led health care reform.

Yowza. :blank:

No killing of small defenseless animals? 😕

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Posted: 05 September 2009 09:50 AM   [ # 121 ]
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DavePrime - 05 September 2009 07:57 AM

And this little gem attached near the end was priceless:

I personally like the little gem at the top that says, “UPDATED SEPTEMBER 13, 2009*”.

Nothing like having your website already updated next week.

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Posted: 05 September 2009 09:52 AM   [ # 122 ]
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Tah - 05 September 2009 01:50 PM
DavePrime - 05 September 2009 07:57 AM

And this little gem attached near the end was priceless:

I personally like the little gem at the top that says, “UPDATED SEPTEMBER 13, 2009*”.

Nothing like having your website already updated next week.

:lol:  I can’t believe I missed that one….. :lol:

I think the whole “Health Care” issue has been pretty fully discussed here on the MoH.  I, for one, am pretty much done discussing it.  For now. 😉  :cheese:

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